The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it Resolved, cats, not dogs, make better human companions

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Starting point is 00:00:31 provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issue of the day. Our goal is to arm you the listener with enough information to make up your own mind. Today's debate, be it resolved. Cats, not dogs, make better human companions. Hi, I'm your moderator, Rudier-Gryphus. Well, it must be one of our most deeply polarizing debates in society today. Controversial, heated, divisive or frankly hesitant to take it on. But here it comes. The monk debates is going to touch the electric wire 400 volts of controversy. We're going to debate which household pet, which four-legged fur ball makes for the best human companion. Well, for cats lovers, they say hands down, felines take the crown. They are the cat's meow, clean, quiet, independent, low maintenance,

Starting point is 00:01:30 cool as a cat, how could anybody not but acknowledge that cats are the superior companions for us humans? On the other side of the debate, we have man's best friend, dog enthusiasts, paint their companions as happy, relentlessly affectionate and attentive. They protect their property, defend humans from all kinds of different threats. Research shows that dogs are good for your health. Owners of canines feel less lonely, fewer mental health issues, and if you can believe it, an even stronger microbiome. What can dogs not do? On this installment of the monk debates, we challenge the essence of these arguments by debating the motion, be it resolved, cats, not dogs, make better human companions. Arguing for the motion is Aaron Hancock. He's a filmmaker

Starting point is 00:02:20 who has produced three documentaries about cats, including the award-winning film Catwalk, Tales from the Cat Show circuit. Arguing against the motion is Alexandra Horowitz. She's a professor of canine cognition at Bernard College and author of the number one New York Times bestseller inside of a dog. What dogs see, smell, and know. Aaron, you're arguing in favor of the motion, so let me put a couple minutes on the show clock and have you kick off this debate for us. Okay, well, thank you very much. First of all, Rudyard, thank you for having me. And Alexandra, I wish you luck in this debate. Let me just say, first of all, that I think dogs are fine animals. I think they're actually great companions. And in fact, I think the dog side of this debate is

Starting point is 00:03:09 really the easier side. However, that is because of really centuries of cognitive bias within the scientific community and society, broadly speaking, toward a love of dogs and a misunderstanding of cats. Cats, after all, are really only about half as domesticated as dogs, and therefore about half is understood. I really believe that a proper consideration would reveal that cats are the better human companions. Cats are not superior animals to dogs, per se, and it's really not humans right to make those kinds of judgments, but I think we can judge what makes a good companion for ourselves,

Starting point is 00:03:48 since we know ourselves better than anybody else. As I'll explain throughout this debate, the facts are that. cats are more human-like and fit into our contemporary way of life and lifestyles much better than dogs. Of course, there are exceptions. Dogs are better companions for the elderly or people with special needs in some cases, or people who have a lot of free time to spend with their adoring animal, or maybe they have a lot of space to take them out and exercise them regularly. But in most cases, cats are really the better human companion. The issue is not what is the kindest or the most affectionate human companion, nor is it what is the most empathetic human companion. It is really

Starting point is 00:04:29 what is the better human companion. And not only do I believe the answer is cats, I actually think that owning a cat makes humans better versions of ourselves and therefore better members of the animal kingdom, calmer, more sensitive, more in touch with other animals' needs. The cliche that cats only tolerate us is really a misnomer. It's an indicator of humans who are too low. lazy to understand cats and their wants and needs. A dog will worship its owner without much effort, but is blind love a marker of good companionship? Or is it really more of an example of like a sort of interspecial Stockholm syndrome? When it comes to human companionship, our own species should aim higher for a more nuanced human-like relationship. After all, only a selfish narcissist

Starting point is 00:05:20 would want a spouse a friend or another human companion who views us as godlike, and yet that dynamic is at the very heart of the human dog dynamic. Getting a dog to love you is easy, but if a cat owner is willing to put in the work to understand its animal, the cat will reciprocate making this union way more profound and potentially more human-like. Thanks you for getting this debate started. You're listening to our monk debate. today on Be It Resolved Cats, not Dogs, make better human companions.

Starting point is 00:05:54 Alexander, you're arguing against our motion. Take us away with the case for canines. Sure. I want to start by saying that this resolution deals with which of these two ubiquitous creatures makes a better human companion. It's not about who is the more likable or who is the cutest or who is the smartest or the most admirable or who you'd like to be reincarnated as, just as a reminder, although I think dogs probably have an advantage on all those fronts as well.

Starting point is 00:06:31 Because that certainly makes it really clear cut. Dogs are constitutionally human companions. Domestication has changed their species, created their species, sufficiently, such that there are no longer any true wild dogs. that is a dog who lives entirely without people. It's not too much of a stretch to say that dogs have been designed by humans in order to be our companions. We've changed them in their personality. We've changed them in their anatomy. We've changed them in their behavior. Dogs are just entwined with humans inextricably.

Starting point is 00:07:14 By contrast, because of their behavior, because of their biology, cats are often described as not domesticated. The snarky among us might say that cats are more admirable, they're aloofness, their independence, but that doesn't make them a better companion, to be sure. So what suits dogs to being a better companion? I think I have five things in mind to start. One, dogs understand us like no other animal, right? At the heart of it is that they follow our gaze, they understand our gestures, they can easily learn our communications, they'll listen to your weird requests to sit or shake or lie down and mostly do that. Two, they literally make us feel better by sharing gaze with us. There's research that's demonstrated that that increases the amount of oxytocin, sometimes called

Starting point is 00:08:11 the love hormone in our bodies. And in fact, we increase it in theirs as well. Three, they care about us. They care whether we're present or absent. As we know, any dog owner who's been greeted enthusiastically at the door when they return home, even if you've just been gone for 30 seconds. Four, they can mind our health. Dogs can detect early cancers by smell. They can be medical detection dogs of all sorts. Diabetes detection dogs detect when blood sugar changes.

Starting point is 00:08:46 Epileptic response dogs are able to get. their persons into a safe posture. They're COVID detection dogs. Cats may smell cancer or low blood sugar on us, but they don't seem to care enough to tell us about it. And finally, they can and will track you if you're missing. And in fact, they track all manner of invasive and unwanted species, included bed bugs simply for the reward of a game of tug with us.

Starting point is 00:09:18 I have more. With dogs, there's always more, but I'll stop there. Detecting cancer. Wow. We're going right up the Maslow's hierarchy of need here pretty quickly when it comes to us humans. Okay, time for rebuttals now. Aaron, it's your opportunity to come back on what you've just heard from Alexandra. Yes, for sure. Let me go through, I think Alex said, five different points that really made, make dogs a superior companion. I'm going to go through them and I'll go through backwards. I think the fifth idea was that dogs can track you when you're missing. Let's just deal with that one right away. I think this is an indication of how dogs are superior working animals, not necessarily superior companions. I don't think that being able to track us is really a prerequisite

Starting point is 00:10:10 for companionship. I don't know. Would you want to make a friend based on their ability to stalk you or follow around your every movement. I think it's kind of creepy, actually. Item number four, that dogs will mind your health. I think this is a great point. However, I think that cats can go paw for paw on this one. Let's talk about mental health. There's a lot of indication that animal-assisted therapists, for example,

Starting point is 00:10:35 think that cats are better therapy animals in some cases. For example, cats are better at mirroring some of these human-like dynamics like families or couples, anywhere where there's a bit more nuance or a bit more independence that people need to understand and wrap their heads around, anybody that's struggling with mental illnesses like PTSD or anxiety can learn a lot about emotional regulation this way. And there's also examples of cats, you know, waking up people who have been having heart attacks and whatnot. Alexandra also her first three items were that dogs understand us, dogs make us feel better, and that dogs care about us. I think those are all

Starting point is 00:11:15 valid points. And I think, again, we have a bit of a tie with cats here. I think, again, it's a misnomer that cats don't care about us. I think that's really because of scientific laziness and a cognitive bias in the research. There's really a lot of research that suggests that cats are effective in all those areas, understanding us, making us feel better and caring about us. recently there was a study that was published about attachment styles and the same kinds of experiments that are conducted on primates and on human babies were conducted with kittens and older cats and what was determined was that really cats have the same kind of attachment style to their owners as human babies do to their parents or their caregivers and that includes both the positive

Starting point is 00:12:06 or the insecure and the secure types of attachments. So really, I think we're toe to toe here on these first three topics that Alexander brought up. Thanks, Aaron. Alexander, give you an opportunity now to rebut dogs are a psychic and physical disruption in our society. Cats are much more low-key. Maybe, frankly, lower maintenance, which might, if we want to be honest about ourselves and what we look for in pets, maybe that's more aligned. with who we are, our species, here in this,

Starting point is 00:12:40 the second decade of the 21st century. Sure. Well, I think that the way that people live with dogs isn't always, in fact, isn't often solitary for the dogs. We don't seem to understand what's useful for them. We buy them on impulse after barely a thought of how they're going to be incorporated into our life. and sometimes we think of them only in terms of their utility,

Starting point is 00:13:08 their usefulness as a working dog or as an emotional support dog, or I might say as a companion. But as it happens, we have designed them to be companions, to be responsive to us. And so to their deficit in some respect, they are actually really good companions. They will, in fact, forgive us. if we abuse them or neglect them or leave them alone,

Starting point is 00:13:38 it's not great for them, but for us, it's the bees' knees. Okay, let me join the conversation and think up some questions that are top of mind for our audience. What's your sense of like the emotional lives of cats? And again, if we wanted to be really honest with ourselves, are we kind of more cat-like, maybe, than we'd like to admit, maybe less dog-like, less able to extend the kind of loyalty, adoration, unconditional love that

Starting point is 00:14:11 certainly dogs seem to give you, whereas cats, it often seems that that might be a kind of earned privilege on the part of the owner. And who knows? Maybe that at the end of the day is somehow psychically more healthy for us to have an animal that isn't just slavishly in love with us all the time. Well, Rudyard, first of all, I really appreciated that turn of phrase, earned privilege. And I think that's actually what's at the heart of making this a more rewarding companionship relationship. But yeah, let's go back to the beginning of your question. Yes, I do think that humans are more cat-like than dog-like. I think perhaps humans wish they were more dog-like. It's certainly they're aspirational. I think we keep dogs around because we would love to be more

Starting point is 00:14:58 like them and they're a reminder of what we ought to be like, adoring, loyal, all these positive relationships. But the facts are that humans are hot and cold. Sometimes we need space. Other times we want a lot of love. Sometimes we want love really on our own terms. You know, dogs are amazingly uncomplicated when it comes to certain things, and that is simply not human-like. So again, I really do think it's a misnomer that cats do not care about us. There's evidence to suggest the contrary. And cats are hard. highly sensitive. What we know about the emotional lives, they're highly sensitive. One of the things that cats do when they're depressed is they actually feign sleeping. They'll pretend to be a

Starting point is 00:15:37 sleep, which shows a remarkable level of emotional intelligence. In fact, it's something maybe I'll try to do in my own life. It's the idea of avoidance. So yeah, cats are very smart. That's a great point. To come to you, Alexander, and let's talk about dogs as companions, because that's a big part in a sense of what's behind our resolution today, dogs and not cats or better companions. Should we be right in thinking that humans' understanding of what companionship from dogs means has really changed over time? And that previously we saw dogs primarily as animals that had kind of utility to us,

Starting point is 00:16:22 that the companionship was around some aspect of the dog provider, work or laboring on behalf of the family and of its humans. Are we right to think that dogs, in the worst case scenario, have kind of become fashion accessories? They've become simply another consumer good that people have added, you know, into their lives, especially during COVID. I guess what I'm getting here is do we really have a good sense that the companionship that we get from dogs is as meaningful or substantive as it was in the past as it is now. Is our relationship with canines somehow in some kind of decline?

Starting point is 00:17:07 I mean, that's a really interesting question. It's certainly the case that what we thought as humans, we were doing with dogs or around dogs or living with dogs, has radically changed from, certainly from the time that the first dogs were domesticated, whatever that was about. 15, 20,000 years ago. And even from many of the intermediate thousands of years, when dogs were primarily bred or chosen or kept for specific functional roles, were they a hunting companion,

Starting point is 00:17:41 were they a guard, where they help flesh out pray or retrieve it. And also, you know, there were companion dogs at that time. You'll see medieval paintings with a dog's sitting on a woman's lap, for instance. I mean, a lap dog, those were absolutely roles that dogs played. Then something very odd happened in Victorian England and then in the U.S. in the 19th century, which was that we started breeding dogs primarily for looks. And this was done by groups of individuals who were very interested in dogs,

Starting point is 00:18:22 but also wanted to separate what they considered to be the best examples of the dogs. from the kind of hoi-polloy of dogs that anybody could own. And they started creating breeds and breed standards that has led to the recognizable breeds that many people live with today. At KC, the American Kennel Club lists 200-some breeds. And in fact, even with mixed breeds, my dogs of choice, we still think of them in terms of being combinations

Starting point is 00:18:55 of some of these breeds, even though literally they're not, in most cases, unless you have something like a specific hybrid, like the doodle dogs, which are poodles with some other purebred dog. That has not been great for dogs. It has led to the possibility, as you suggest, that they can be accessories, right? That they are chosen for kind of their features, as though they were models of cars or coffee makers that were purchasing not sentient companions who are going to be incorporated into our lives. But I would say that underlying this, I mean, of course, there are dogs who are used

Starting point is 00:19:37 for functional roles as well, right? All the working dogs, all the detection dogs, their police dogs, et cetera. But I think underlying it, the primary role that they have is as companion, right is as someone and so we could kind of deconstruct what a companion is what a good companion is but what dogs are fundamentally is interested in humans right and that's because of we chose intentionally or even inadvertently over time dogs who were comfortable with not fearful of and drawn to humans some will form specific relationships with humans they rely on humans for feeding and sometimes for care. There are researchers doing studies with these free-ranging dogs now.

Starting point is 00:20:27 These weren't dogs who probably had any pleasing or comforting human exposure in their early lives just sort of saw humans in the background. And they can even at a more advanced age, be socialized to humans. So that companion role is, I think, the one that's really stuck of all those roles. and we see it in most dogs still. Aaron, if you were to think of a cat and dog owner, what are the characteristics that you would describe to either group? I guess what I'm trying to get at is does companionship have consequences?

Starting point is 00:21:05 Yes, sometimes there are unintended consequences of our pet ownership that can be kind of tragic or sad. I think there are practical realities that we can, can talk about and then there are sort of generalizations or stereotypes we can talk about when it comes to pet owners, dogs and cats. I think practically speaking, cat owners might be by virtue of not having to take care of a dog. They might be a little busier. They might be more likely to travel. They might work longer hours. They might simply do things that are less possible when they own a dog. The question is, does owning the animal shape their lifestyle or vice versa? I'm not I'm not

Starting point is 00:21:46 sure. Now, of course, you could do all of these things when you, you can travel a lot and you can work long hours when you own a dog. You just might not be a good dog owner. There are also selfish dog owners, just like they're selfish cat owners, but selfish dog owners, you know, probably don't have the right lifestyle to own a dog. And in some cases, you'll see these people giving up dogs for adoption. And I've made a film actually that dealt with some of these situations where dogs were kind of designer dogs were taken on and bought. And it turned out that they were a lot more work than the owner had bargained for. And eventually they did the proper thing, which was to give them up to a shelter or an adoption agency. But these are the kind of people that shouldn't be buying dogs in the first place.

Starting point is 00:22:36 And, you know, I think if I were to be a little less charitable about dogs, dog owners, we could say maybe ideal dog owners might be a little bit more insecure than cat owners. Perhaps they feel the need for more validation, more interaction from a more unquestionably adoring pet. Perhaps they even have a god complex, I don't know. But cat owners, I think, generally, might be more comfortable in gray areas. They might be more comfortable with nuance and having to earn that privilege, as you said. It might be our most important monk debate ever. On June 22nd at Roy Thompson Hall will be convening two of the world's leading experts on

Starting point is 00:23:23 artificial intelligence to debate the motion, be it resolved. AI research and development poses an existential risk. Be sure to attend this debate and listen and learn from Max Tegmark and Jan Lecun. Again, top experts who know AI like few other people. They're going to share their thoughts on how AI will transform our workplace, our society, our democracy. We'll cover it all the risks, the rewards of AI at this critical monk debate. For more information, go to our website, triple W monk debates.com. We do have tickets set aside for monk members.

Starting point is 00:24:04 So grab yours now before this event sells out. We'll see you in Toronto. on June 22nd for the monk debate on artificial intelligence. Alexandra, what's your take on the characteristics of a cat or dog person? I think it's a way of us talking about ourselves that doesn't have to do with cats or dogs at all, right? It has to do with kind of stereotypical ideas about cats and dogs that we want to reflect something about ourselves. I certainly see this with dogs all the time that among in breed choices, people choose dogs who, they think reflect themselves in some way in their...

Starting point is 00:24:46 In some cases literally look like them. In fact, yes, right. Either they choose dogs who in sometimes ephemeral way kind of invoke the person or over time it's possible we grow to look like each other a little bit and I think that is also a possibility. Alexandra, is that somehow revealing? I mean, I guess we do have cat breeds. There certainly are the equivalent of whatever

Starting point is 00:25:12 is the Winchester cat show. I don't know what it's called, but we do breed cats for certain kind of characteristics, colors of coats, size, all kinds of different prerequisites. Are cats headed the way of dogs? I'm just trying to get a sense, like, if we think of this as a competition,

Starting point is 00:25:33 maybe it's not, but let's pretend that it is. And dogs, let's say, have had this 20,000-year head start possibly on cats. Are cats some, like, are there signs maybe that cats are catching up, that people are starting to do things with cats that we've done with dogs? As you talked about, the Victorians deciding all of a sudden to breed dogs for certain characteristics. You know, we're doing that now for cats. Is this a sign maybe that the popularity of cats hasn't yet seen its heyday? Cats are hugely popular, right? And they already have been subject to some of these human foibles.

Starting point is 00:26:12 like breeding for extreme characteristics and it's all appearance-based, much to their detriment. Usually, these are not things that are health-giving for cats. So they are subjected to the same human whims and whimsies and have been for as long, even though they haven't been our companions for as long as dogs have. Could we say that dogs are smarter than cats? You know, I think there's one border collie that knows over 200 commands or words. Is there any like empirical evidence that would suggest that dogs have a greater ability to cognate,

Starting point is 00:26:54 I guess, is however you'd understand that on an animal scale, and that maybe that in effect is what makes them better companions? Okay. Well, that's a great question. I think intelligence is an important factor for being an effective human companion, but I would caution us away from over-emphasizing intelligence. Dolphins and other primates are far more intelligent than dogs or cats, but they would make really impractical human companions.

Starting point is 00:27:21 I would say that there's evidence that both cats and dogs are highly intelligent animals. Again, I think dogs get the paw up because there's just been way more research done into dogs. You have to look at the kind of biases that exist in any kind of research. and dogs have been, you know, man's best friend for centuries, and they are more like, just like you have more research into issues that affect men than issues that affect women. And these kinds of biases are things we need to be careful about. I do point out that the growing canon of research in cats is certainly causing a lot of surprises. and I mentioned the study earlier about attachment styles.

Starting point is 00:28:08 That was something which people didn't really even know about 10 years ago. Nobody bothered to conduct the same experiment that they had been done dozens of times on humans, on primates, on dogs about attachment styles with caregivers. I will say this, though, about intelligence, which I don't think is the main issue affecting the ability to be a good companion. Cats are survivors, and they are scavengers. and they can fend for themselves. They know how to manipulate humans if they need to.

Starting point is 00:28:38 They know how to beg. They know how to go through garbage. They are a bit raccoon-like like that. They're also highly effective hunters, which can be a problem, actually, when they are outside. They can wreak havoc on our ecosystems. But all of these things prove that they are effective survivors. They can populate.

Starting point is 00:28:57 They can thrive, in some cases, at the expense of, of, you know, native species, all of these things are a sign of intelligence. Alexander, do you have any sense of that about, you know, the relative intelligence of cats versus dogs, or is it just not possible really to make those determinations? I mean, would dogs have physically bigger brains than cats? Well, the idea that a big brain leads to intelligence has been debunked long ago, and I think any comparative psychologist worth their salt now will say it just depends on what you mean by intelligence. So social intelligence is something that dogs certainly have in spades.

Starting point is 00:29:38 Most dogs, if we can talk about the general platonic dog, which is to say, because of their social ancestry, they are sensitive to the moves, the behavior of others. They're able to use others' behaviors to get things for themselves and to get resources for themselves and to work cooperatively with others. Cats are less evolutionarily, you know, less socially engaged. And so not, in some ways, not as intelligent socially. In terms of maybe physical problem solving, where you have something that needs retrieval and you don't have the equipment to do it, dogs are maybe not as good as their ancestors, wolves, at, for instance, persistence at solving a physical problem, but cats, because they're less like predisposed, especially domestic cats,

Starting point is 00:30:41 to look to their people for help, more likely to persistently try to solve a problem. In some ways, that's intelligent because, you know, through trial and error, they might come up with a solution. But as companions, it might be less intelligent. You don't want the cat actually finding out how to, you know, claw through to knock over the fishbowl that leads, you know, in a Rube Goldberg way to their kibble bag falling over and supplying them with food in your absence. You don't want them to discover that. So it might not make them better companions, but they're sort of might be more likely, more predisposed to be cognitively explorative in that way. Yeah, it certainly has allowed cats to win the battle of pet videos on the internet. I think probably 10 to 1, it's cats versus dogs.

Starting point is 00:31:39 You've been listening to our debate today, be it resolved, cats, not dogs, make better companions. So let's go to closing statements. This is an opportunity to kind of wrap up what both of you have shared with us in this debate. What are the key points that you'd like our listeners to leave with? let's even in a sense go bigger picture. What do we maybe as owners, even that whole term, the owner, it's a strange idea. What do we as, I don't know, cohabitants with our pets?

Starting point is 00:32:10 What are our responsibilities maybe regardless of whether you're a dog lover or a cat, no lover? So I think that we are maybe 10 years away from removing the turn of phrase, pet owner or animal owner from our vernacular. It's a hangover from a time when humans thought that they could and therefore should conquer nature, flora and fauna. And that kind of dominance of humans and industry over nature was regarded as a good thing. I think now we understand that nature is really important to keep in balance for many reasons, including the success of of our own species with, you know, biodiversity is now at the top of our minds. And there's an interrelationship between nature and humans and animals, and we are animals.

Starting point is 00:33:07 I think also to think even bigger about this, I think domesticated animals are, in some ways, an awful reminder of humans' desire to tinker with nature. I know Alexandra has spoken about dogs being tailor-made for humans. human needs and wants. And I don't know that that's a good thing. I think if we continue this way of thinking, it can get us into some really dark areas. Selective breeding has all kinds of apocalyptic ways we could take this. That will point out that, you know, humans have spent 300,000 years or more, you know, trying to fend for themselves and to survive, often at the expense of other animals. And cats have done the same thing. And good or

Starting point is 00:33:53 bad, that kind of makes cats are spirit animals, really. Whereas dogs were created and designed by humans to be a version of what I think the dream of what we aspire to be, or as, as is represented in the collective imagination of humans through religion and the stories and the myths we tell about each other. And then my other point was a practical considerations. I think just, you know, dogs require so much more care than cats. And they earn it. Then they, they, They deserve it. But that's not always practical for people. And cats clean themselves.

Starting point is 00:34:30 They're relatively low maintenance. And what they make you work hard for is that kind of emotional connection. Again, I would point out that if we weren't talking about a pet, if we were talking about a human companion, our criteria would not be somebody who is like a slave who just worships us. And I think that we have to be careful for that and to check ourselves. to not be too narcissistic and are grandiose and are thinking about a relationship with animals. And finally, I will say that now it has become clear that cats are much better for the environment than dogs. As pets, they have a lower carbon footprint. They eat less. They drink less water. And I think that is another thing that we need to think about as responsible stewards of the

Starting point is 00:35:18 world. So with that, I will hand it over to my opponent and wish her. good luck under our closing remarks. So masterful summing up. Okay, Alexander, we're going to give you the last word in our debate today, one that I've wanted to have for dozens and dozens of episodes among debates. Be it resolved cats, not dogs, make better human companions. You've been arguing against the motion. Let's wrap up our conversation. As a species, dogs have cooperatively wagged into a relationship with us that benefits us both. They are interested. in your well-being, in the group's well-being, and as an afterthought their own. Cats' behavior, which can vary from distinctively disinterested to downright apathetic,

Starting point is 00:36:08 could be described as independent. While, as a matter of fact, domestic cats in our home are still dependent on us for a lot. They're just not as appreciative. Dogs can read and respond to our emotions. They're social animals, and we want to be among social animals. They know how badly we smell as humans, but they don't say anything about it. And most important, they're probably less likely to eat you if you die. Overall, I think dogs are win this debate.

Starting point is 00:36:42 Okay, well, we will give the final last word to our listeners who can, of course, emails podcast at monkdebates.com. Let us know what you thought about this debate. who's the top dog, the top cat in our debate today. We appreciate that feedback. And just want to thank you for sharing your wisdom and insights with our monk audience. My pleasure. Thank you, Rod. You're had a great time.

Starting point is 00:37:10 If you have any feedback or reflections on what you've just heard, are you a cat or a dog lover? Has this debate incensed you in ways that maybe none of our other podcast debates have? Well, please send us email right now. to podcast at monkdebates.com. That's MUNK Debateswithan s.com. A friendly reminder that our weekly current affairs podcast, Friday Focus that comes out, hey, guess what? You got it. Every Friday is available as a sample in this very same podcast feed. Check it out. If you like what you hear, consider becoming a donor to the monk debates for as little as $25 a year 50 cents. An episode, you can get the full-length editions of each and every Friday Focus podcast.

Starting point is 00:37:58 Do that right now on our website, triple-W monkdebates.com. Just look for Friday Focus in the top right navigation. Also, a friendly reminder that our big public debate on AI is fast approaching. June 22nd, two of the world's top AI experts will debate the motion, be it resolved. AI research and development poses an existential risk. Tickets to this debate are solely.

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Starting point is 00:39:15 Ricky Gerwitz are the producers. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating. Thank you again. for listening.

The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it Resolved, cats, not dogs, make better human companions

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