The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it Resolved: It is time to defund police and reimagine public safety in our communities

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

Is it time to defund police?On this episode of the Munk Debates Podcast, Minneapolis City Council Member Alondra Cano and Retired Deputy Chief Wayne Harris argue the motion Be it resolved it is time to defund police and reimagine public safety in our communities. SOURCES:Lexington Herald Leader, ABC News, Reuters, CBC Television, ABC10, Global News, CBSNBecome a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think it's time for this toxic binary zero-sum madness to stop. We're not an imperial power. We're a revolutionary power. We are no longer in a world where you can plot out moves statesman to statesman like a chessboard. You don't know anything about my background to where I came from. It doesn't matter to you because fundamentally I'm a mean white man. We can't do this to the next generation because America will cease to exist. Every episode, we provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day, free of spin, focused on the facts and animated by smart conversation to arm you, the listener, with enough information to make up your own mind.

Today's debate, be it resolved. It's time to defund police and reimagine public safety in our communities. Hello, I'm your moderator, Rudier Griffiths. while it took a white police officer eight minutes and 46 seconds to kill George Floyd, and not much longer to spark the largest anti-racism protests in the U.S. and around the world since the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Protesters have started to focus their fury on a specific call to action. They say the time has come to defund the police.

For many, this means abolishing outright an institution they see as rooted in centuries of racism that has proven impossible to reform. They argue that the best way to make neighborhoods safe is to redirect all of the existing police budgets to social services focusing on poverty alleviation, mental health, public housing, and substance abuse. We don't want anybody to take a need. It does not give our communities the resources

that they actually need for mental health care, for relief for COVID, from the things that would actually keep us safe, not cops. We're calling for defunding the police. Defunding's critics argue that police were now and will be essential to preserving the peace in society. Supporters of the police believe that the vast majority of officers make positive and lasting contributions to the security and well-being of the communities they serve. The president is appalled by the defund the police movement. He definitely believes there are instances of racism, but look, he believes our law enforcement are the best in the world.

He believes that by and large they are good, hardworking people. On this installment of the Monk Debates podcast, we challenge the essence of these arguments by debating the motion. Be it resolved, it is time to defund the police and reimagine public safety in our communities. Arguing for the motion is Minneapolis City Councilor Alondra Cano. She represents the ninth ward where George Floyd was murdered. She's also one of the counselors who voted to disband the Minneapolis Police Department and has led the charge. to rebuild the city's community safety strategy from the bottom up. Arguing against the motion is retired deputy chief Wayne Harris.

He's a member of the Law Enforcement Action Partnership and the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. He was formerly the Deputy Chief of Community Relations and Engagement for the Rochester, New York Police Department. Counselor, Chief, welcome to the Monk Debates podcast. Thank you. It's nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me here today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation today.

This is a vital issue for public debate and discussion to have two people with your breadth of experience and not just hard one knowledge, but years of public service in your communities. You come to this debate with different points of view, but that's why we've reached out to you, and we greatly appreciate your time and the thoughts that you'll share with our audience. Our motion today is be it resolved. It's time to defund police and reamend. imagine public safety in our communities. Counselor Alonra Cano, we're going to ask you to go first.

We'll put two minutes on the clock, and let's have your opening thoughts in this conversation. Thank you. My name is Alondra Cano, and I'm the council member for the ninth ward in Minneapolis, Minnesota. About a month ago, I woke up to the most horrific video I have ever seen in my entire life. In that video, a resident had documented for Minneapolis Police. officers using their body as a weapon against an innocent individual who was laying in the ground, and for eight minutes and 46 seconds, took the air and life out of his body. Shortly thereafter, nine of my colleagues and I stood together in Powderhorn Park in South Minneapolis to

acknowledge and affirm that our policing system cannot be reformed. We vowed to end the current policing system as we know it, and we established ourselves on a clear path to create a new transformative model for cultivating public safety. We decided that we would take on a one-year community engagement process of truth and reconciliation to give birth to this new system. And indeed, after the killings of not only George Floyd, but also Ticell Nelson, Barbara Schneider, Fong Lee, David Smith, Terence Franklin, Jamar Clark, Justine Damon, Thurman Blevins, Travis Jordan, Fong Vu, and others. We have come to a point where we all acknowledge that our current system has eroded the trust of the community to the point where it no longer functions. We acknowledge that we have a broken and outdated system that doesn't keep our community safe and our officers.

safe. So we are here now to reclaim that future of public safety, and we are here to redefine and re-energize the ways that we protect each other and the ways that we keep each other safe. Thank you, Councilwoman Conno. Now, Deputy Chief Wayne Harris, we're going to turn the program over to you. Two minutes on the clock. You're arguing against our resolution, be it resolved. It's time to defund police and reimagine public safety in our communities. Over to you. Certainly, and thank you to the Monk's debate for inviting me for this very, very important conversation. And yes, I am arguing the con for this. It is not time to defund police. And while I understand the councilwoman's frustration and anger over the events that have occurred most recently with George Floyd,

but also in Minneapolis's history, unfortunately the statistics do not support that it's time to defund policing, whether it's in Minneapolis or across the board. Consider that there are approximately 18,000 police agencies in the country, and there's just under a million police officers serving every single day. That translates to millions of interactions between the police and the citizens that they serve, the communities that they serve, and only a fraction of which ever become physical, meaning the police have to actually lay hands on an individual, and even a smaller fraction still could ever be construed as negative. Now, is it time to take a look at policing to see how we can move forward to improve, certainly. And, you know, in preparing for this, I did some homework and I took a

look at the history of the Minneapolis Police Department. And I see that it has a pretty, you know, strong history of some police misconduct dating back to the 1920s and the 1930s. And it's continued on. And I think reimagining police is probably something that's, that it's time to do. But in order to do that, we have to look a little bit more broadly. Now, one of the problems, with the notion of defunding the police department is that it's based on a negative impression. It doesn't take into consideration the very positive things that men and women of the Minneapolis Police Department are doing on a daily basis to serve their citizens. And the message that it sends to them is that their efforts aren't appreciated.

The other thing that defunding a police department will do is create a very serious, you know, problem for those neighborhoods that are beset by crime, gang violence, drug abuse, So I think what we need to do is understand that policing is necessary in a civilized society, but it's also necessary that we do it right. And that's going to require us taking a really strong look at not only its history, its policies and our procedures, and where we want to go moving forward into the future. And I have some ideas on how I think we can get there. Thank you, Deputy Chief Wayne Harris. We're going to get to those ideas. Absolutely, that's the purpose of this conversation. So, Councillor Kano, I want to give you an opportunity

just to respond to what you've just heard from the deputy chiefer, there's a key point or two that you want to underline for our listeners in terms of your disagreement around this question of community involvement of organized police forces and how they bring security or not to disadvantage and marginalized groups. I think it's really important to, number one, to not couch change as a negative aspect. I think that many of our daily actions and our society in a very organic way changes to provide better responses to issues or requests from community. So change in itself is not a negative thing. Another important item to really clarify here is that I think there's a big difference between the other guest speaker and myself in that I would consider

a lot of what he just mentioned to be reformist in nature, whereas I am an abolitionist in our response to what happened. And as an elected official who is now the chair of public safety, who has been on the city council for seven years, I will admit that I believed in reform and I was working really hard on reform efforts until I saw them completely flushed down the drain when Officer Chauvin used his knee, not a gun, not a billy club, to go against all of the policies that we had in place, including a directive from the chief of police, from our first African-American chief of police in the entire history of the Minneapolis Police Department

to protect the sanctity of life. And so watching that video, where for eight minutes and 46 seconds, that officer violated that directive and completely ignored all of the reform efforts we have been doing to diversify the workforce to provide this training that gets rid of bias in policing, to ensure that,

we're having open and transparent negotiations with the police federation, all of that was thrown away in those eight minutes and 46 seconds. And that's the moment that I became an abolitionist. And so I think what we're doing here is much, much bigger than a budget directive, than a simple language tweak on a memo. We are diving into the spiritual, mental and physical bones and architecture of how we relate to each other as a community. and how we show up for each other when we need help, and how we show up for each other when we decide to provide protection from one another.

This is a societal project that is immense in scope, and the thing that's going to get us through it, from my perspective, is the deep commitment that I have seen from all corners of our city who have said, we are done and we are tired with watching innocent people being killed in a broken and outdated system that you have beat yourself over the head to reform, which will not accept those reforms. And we want to take the risk to do something different and to do something better. And so that's the moment that we're in in history.

It is much, much bigger than a piece of paper or a budgetary directive. Thank you, Councillor Cano. Okay, Deputy Chief Wayne Harris, let's have you respond in kind to the Councilwoman's opening statements, what she's just said now. Reform isn't enough. This is about a word that we're hearing a lot these days, systemic change. Why do you think that that is to reach too far, in your view, to court outcomes, which will be counterproductive to community safety? Well, first of all, there's a big difference between productive change and abolishing or, you know, in this case, defunding the police entirely.

And I appreciate the fact that the councilwoman is at one point in her past considering of reform. But I want to caution us because what unfortunately the councilwoman is doing is she's indicting the entire system and thereby the entire law enforcement industry for the actions of four individuals. So what she's saying in fact is that the actions of former officer Chauvin and the three other officers that stood by and allowed him to kill George Floyd de legitimizes law enforcement as an industry and the services that the Minneapolis police has provided to. to the city of Minneapolis. If all we're going to do is look at what occurred to George Floyd as the end-all be-all indictment of everything that the Minneapolis Police Department and the city of Minneapolis is,

then we're making a mistake. Now, what Officer Chavent, or what Mr. Chauvin did, I'm not gonna call him an officer because he was wrong on many, many fronts more than we could even talk about right here. But what that individual did to George Floyd was criminal. And he disregarded his training. He disregarded his policies and procedures.

And if there's a union that's supporting his actions, that's another conversation that we're actually going to have to figure out, how we can get law enforcement agencies, municipalities, and unions to all figure out that working together and not separately in a part is the only way to ensure the safety, stability, and the health of a community. Thank you, Deputy Chief. Okay, there are a bunch of issues I think that we need to go through here for the benefit of our listeners. And Councilor Kano, let me come to you first on this. Let's call it the bad apple

argument, because I think that's how it's been characterized in the media. We're pulling out one horrible, tragic instance of brutality and injustice, and we're using that as a means, as a tool to take apart a institution in our society, which has existed for decades, for centuries, that provides a pretty essential function, which is law and order. And the basis for a civil society to exist? How do you respond to that bad apple argument? First of all, it's important to acknowledge that the history and the foundation of our current policing system has its genesis from slavery and colonization. That is the legacy that has been handed down to us and the undue burden that many of us don't want to carry anymore. We

constantly embed good officers, good people in these broken, outdated systems. And as abolitionists today, what we're saying is it's time to be clear about our set of options. It's time to be clear about the choices we have to make. And we have to choose the path we will walk on. Or are we going to continue to try to beat our heads over, you know, against the wall time and time again, on reformist initiatives that do not produce the outcomes that we want. I, myself, cannot continue to legitimize this system where every year or two I have to write an apology for another person that has been awfully and horrifically murdered for no reason. I cannot continue to do that.

So, Deputy Chief, let me come back to you on another key argument here, which is that, you know, you've written about your own experience as a young police officer having to respond to calls of people who are confronting mental illness, who are dealing with the lack of affordable or social housing and are homeless and are suffering as a result. The Sacramento Police Department is mobilizing a special unit to tackle a growing number of mental health-related calls. Many of those folks actually experiencing homelessness. Just one week after 29-year-old Regis Kortinski-Packett, a woman who struggled with mental illness felt her death from her high park apartment. After police were called in, some activists say it's time to decline. I mean, why shouldn't we welcome this kind of systemic change that the councilwoman is talking about to deal with realities that, frankly, the police never should have been asked to deal with in the first place?

Would you agree to that? That there's a lot of contemporary policing that just is plug in holes. It's responding to bigger socioeconomic failures in our society that the councilwoman wants to address through this systemic change. using the funding that currently goes into police departments, rechanneling that to get at these problems of mental illness, homelessness, violence in the community at their roots, as opposed to just dealing with the symptoms. Why isn't that a valid argument? I think there are areas that law enforcement has the responsibility for right now that can probably be pulled from them. You mentioned mental health issues. That's actually something that we can probably take a look at

and see if we could come up as a society, come up with another way of dealing with, you know, people that are in mental health crisis other than sending law enforcement to them. But then we're also going to have to talk about funding for those social agencies. And therein lies the problem, because as municipalities face these decisions and decide whether to pull those responsibilities from police, they have to figure out how to fund that and have to get that forward. They also have to figure out a way to make those people. permanent choices. But that's a conversation again of reimagining police and not defunding police or disbanding police. And let me say this just finally. In 2015, President Obama commissioned a task

force to take a look at policing across the board. And he came out with the final report on the President Task Force on 21st Century Policing. I convened a task force on community policing to find common sense steps that can help us drive down crime and build up trust in cooperation between communities and police who put their lives on the line every single day to help keep us safe. And I personally met that particular report has 156 action items and recommendations for the government, the federal government, police agencies across the board and municipalities on how to do policing right. And one of the last things they talked about, the sixth pillar that they talked about, was officer wellness and safety. And there's a reason they did that. And I think we also wanted

you to talk about that too. Thank you. Counselwoman Kano, I appreciate your kind of intellectual honesty here, that you said that you're an abolitionist, and that's an important perspective to have in this conversation, because it kind of pushes all of us to think through what would abolition really mean? And our audience would love to hear from you about how do you remove those kind of core functions of law enforcement related to the criminal code? How do you manage that complex interface between the legal system, which exists in state statute, in national legislation. How does that work? I think it's important for people to remember the time when slavery was abolished. And so we know that slavery was an economic and racist system that many, many people did not want to undo. And it took a long time to

get out of that system. And I would say that we're still struggling with some of the outcomes of that system, which is connected to the racial disparities that we have in education and in policing as well. So if we look at abolishing the policing system within that framework, we acknowledge that as abolitionists, our road will be long, but our road is clear. We see that these systems that were born out of slavery and colonization continue to replicate and foment this cultural silence, this culture of informal policing where someone can in eight minutes and 40 seconds stare at a camera that a resident has and slowly kills somebody in the middle of the day. Those are the kinds of things that our reform systems cannot get at. And this is why we're talking not about

defunding, because I want to be clear, defunding is a strategy for the vision. And the vision in the goal is to create a society and a system that cultivates public safety in a way that truly honors and respects the life of every individual. Defunding is one of the tools and the actions that we use to get to the broader goal. And so we have to continually push everybody to look up at that sky, at that broader goal, and to not get scared by where their feet are at today. The Minneapolis City Council voted to move forward with removing the police department from the city charter. I know a lot of people are wondering, does this mean the police will be gone soon? And there's a lot of confusion around that. That's right. The headlines can be misleading because nothing's actually happened yet and nothing will happen without voters approving it.

Today, there's definitely a police department. There's $193 million there. That will be in place for the rest of the year. In November, we are hoping that our residents will take up. this call with us, and all 450,000 people in Minneapolis will go to the ballot box and decide, do we want to get rid of the police department? Yes or no? And do we want to establish a new public safety and Office of Violence Prevention Program? Yes or no? And so that's where this conversation is going, where we are joining hands with the people of our community in a deeply democratic way to say, do you want to consent to a new system or not? Thank you, Councilwoman. Deputy Chief, let's hear you come back on that point, that this is a

democratic process. It's going to work itself out in part through the ballot box and part through this truth and reconciliation process. And the fundamental point remains that the reallocation of that $100 million plus budget to a new entity is the pathway to a safer, more secure, more livable city for the people of Minneapolis. What's wrong with that approach? It sounds quite reasonable to me. There's some very clear realities that I think the city of Minneapolis needs to take a look at before they get to the point of actually disbanding a police department.

To date, according to their open data portal, there have been 1,807 car thefts in the city of Minneapolis, 1,75 burglaries to date, and 545 robberies just occurring in 20,000. So I guess I'm wondering whether or not the city of Minneapolis has actually taken some steps to fix this. And here, let me toss this out here too, because it's a very key component to what we're talking about. There's a very real information gap between citizens and law enforcement. And there's the fault of the law enforcement industry because it has never in its history gone very far towards explaining

what it is that they do, how it is they do what they do, how policies or procedures were developed, what research went into doing so. We've never been forthcoming with our rules and regulations. So I guess what I'm proposing is that prior to disbanding, perhaps actually getting to know one another, perhaps finally taking some steps to figure out what true law enforcement is, not relying on movies, not relying on TV, not relying on books, but to actually have a very, very substantive conversation where you lay out everything on each side so that moving forward we can actually make some informed decisions. Now, one of the things I did prior to retirement was set up something called a police training advisory committee. And on that committee, I actually populated it with as wide a spectrum

of the community as I could, from those that were vehemently opposed to the Rochester police Department to those that were hugely supportive of the police department. I sat them down in a room and I had two asks for them. One, that they advocated for us in the community when questions of our policy, our training, or our procedures came up from the citizens. And two, that they would make recommendations from the community back to the Rochester Police Department to determine exactly how the community wanted to see us operate. And I'm wondering whether or not steps like that have been taken by the Councilwoman or by the City Council of Minneapolis. And from the research that I've done, it doesn't seem as though there has been a sustained effort in that regard. I took a look at

their open data portal, which unfortunately is very hard to navigate. So perhaps even taking a look at your technology and seeing how best you can serve your community by making the police department, the crimes that are occurring there, more transparent. So everyone has a good idea as to what's going on. Good. Well, we're going to get to closing statements in a moment, I'd like to hear Councilwoman Kano's view on why technology and transparency, you know, from body cameras to real-time reporting on statistics and the interactions of police and their communities, why aren't those systems? Because they're new and they are powerful in terms of their ability to monitor and document police behavior and the interaction of police and citizens. Why aren't those enough for you in terms of using them as tools to reform policing into. the kind of agent of care that you'd like to see it function in your community?

Policing and governing is a deeply human project. We do have police cameras on every officer, and we've done a wonderful job of getting them to comply with that policy of use before people didn't take it seriously. They wouldn't turn them on. They wouldn't learn when and how. And now, after having quarterly reports with our compliance officers, those numbers are above 90% in every precinct. That also means that the murder of Mr. George Floyd was caught on police body camera that

Monday, May 25th when he was murdered. That also means that that particular initiative was not meaningful enough to prevent the death of this man. It also means that the deeply human connection that we must have with life and with our residents is not centered in our policing system because four police officers watched and one definitely participated in this murder and no one felt empowered or responsible enough or courageous enough or allowed enough to intervene in preventing that murder even though that is a directive from our chief of police. So there's something deeper here that goes above and beyond technology and

gadgets. There's something deeper here that goes above and beyond the memos and the directives of training. It is indeed this like severed relationship between our policing system and our community. And there is a difference between a policing system and how we keep ourselves safe. Those two things are not the same thing. And I'm a little embarrassed by the statistics that were just shared by my co-presenter here because I think that just highlights how horrifically ineffective our current system is. And so in our work, we have committed to a one-year process of truth and reconciliation. And every police officer and every resident that wants to be a part of that can. We are not interested in replicating models of omission and oppression that have been handed down to us and that present themselves in the current system.

we are genuinely interested in getting feedback block by block in that same model that Sierra Leone in post-apartheid movements led where our traditions of forgiveness were reclaimed, where our traditions of accountability were revived, where elders and young people played a prominent role in how we address conflict and how we reduce conflict. What I'm hearing is that thousands and thousands and thousands of people across our city want to build a new system and they want to be a part of it in a new way. And what we're saying is we're going to open the door to that participation. And instead of pretending like we are the experts and we have it all figured out, that this is a collaborative project that most of our residents want to step into and want to

build together. And I will tell you that I have people from the most wealthiest part of the city, from the parts that have the least amount of crime saying, I am here for that, sign me up for that, let's do this. And that is the most fascinating and that is the most, I think, different point in time that we're in than ever before. And that's what gave me the political courage and backing to do what we're doing. And that's why you saw 12 council members vote in unison to forward these questions on to the people of Minneapolis because they're ready for the question and we're ready for the debate. We've had a terrific debate together these last 30 minutes or so I'm going to move to closing statements momentarily, but Deputy Chiefs just I want you to respond to one other point that's come up in this larger debate that's been going on around defunding. And that is that for the police, they can talk about reform. They can talk about new ideas to reduce the violence that's occurring in communities and between police officers and citizens.

But at the end of the day, this is really about money. And this is about police services not wanting to lose budgets, which have grown, in most cases, outstripping inflation across the United States. And if you've said, if you've used the language a couple times in this debate, a police industry, an industry that has a self-interest in maintaining a status quo, which has been to its advantage financially. How do you respond to that? I just want to correct the councilwoman on one thing. those statistics that I gave were not a key performance indicator of the performance of a police agency. If you want to talk about clearance rates for all of those categories that I've mentioned and how successful the police department is in addressing those, that's a key performance indicator and can be used as a method of determining whether or not a police department is successful or not.

Those numbers that I gave were simply to indicate that there are crimes that are occurring in the city of Minneapolis that are still going to need to be addressed. and they're going to have to be addressed by a police agency of some fashion or another. So I just, I want to caution them on disbanding and not paying attention to the stuff that is going to continue to occur in the city of Minneapolis on a daily basis. Now, to your question with regard to, you know, the police industry and vested interest in maintaining the funding, I can tell you right now that not only here in Rochester, but I'm certain it's probably the same in Minneapolis, most police agencies across the country right now are understaffed and probably do not have enough money to operate and do all of the things that they want to do. Now, if we're talking about reimagining law enforcement and figuring out what areas of

responsibility they have right now that aren't necessarily related to crime, then sure, I'm all for that. But to continue to indict all law enforcement on the actions of four individuals in the city of Minneapolis for right now and also by the actions of some other individuals in their past is a mistake and it's an indictment that that should not stand. It cancels out all of the good work that's being done on a daily basis by men and women across the country that are going to work every single day simply because they care. And I'm strongly, strongly cautioning the councilwoman and the city council of Minneapolis to not indict an entire system over the actions of

a few. You're listening to the Monk Debates podcast, be it resolved. It's time to defund police and reimagine public safety in our communities. Speaking for the motion is Alondra Cano, Minneapolis City Councilor who represents the ninth ward where George Floyd was murdered. Arguing against the motion is retired deputy chief Wayne Harris, who is a member of the national organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. Let's rejoin the debate in progress. Let's move to closing statements. This is an opportunity for both of you to underline any of the key points or messages you

want to leave our audience with. So, Counsel Arcana, we're going to come to you first for your two-minute closing statement. The reason we are taking action today is because we saw the clear lack of response from our policing system and protecting the sanctity of life of specifically an African-American male that was unarmed and broadly people of color in our city given the long list of names I read earlier today. The reason we are taking action today is because we have heard from thousands and thousands of people, both through their protest and their voice and the burning down of our city, that the social contract we have with the current policing system is no longer. That is a system that is a system

that many residents are fed up with. That is a system that people no longer believe in, and that is a system that has shown me is not willing to change. Perhaps willing is a strong word. Certainly, I have seen it not be able to change, despite good intentions and despite good officers and despite an excellent chief of police. So I want to express the fact that this is a question about consent. This is a question about the people deciding their own future. The charter question we are putting before the people of Minneapolis is about them deciding the future of Minneapolis. Not about a chief of police deciding that, not about a council member deciding that,

but it is truly giving that voice and power and authority to the very residents, the taxpayers, and the voters to decide what does the future of safety? for our city look like. So I think that ultimately, for those of us who live in Minneapolis, we know this is going to be a very homegrown decision, and we just hope that people across the country can continue to engage in this conversation in their own local municipalities and communities, because we know that this question is not unique to us. We know many cities have struggled with the same question. And approaching safety from a public health approach has proven to be really effective and has proven to be the compassionate way that people want us to respond

instead of sending an armed officer to a specific problem that is rooted in lack of housing, in lack of food, in lack of money, in lack of their own personal safety. So for me, the work that we're doing today is deeply democratic, and it is about re-centering and reclaiming the future of safety and putting it in the hands of, the 450,000 people that live in our city and that want a different future. Well, Deputy Chief Wayne Harris, we're going to give you the last word in our conversation today. You've got two minutes to sum up what you'd like to leave audiences with in terms of your key messages or what you've engaged with on the councilwoman around this debate. Well, thank you. First, I'd like to thank the month

debates for putting this forum together and allowing the councilwoman and I to actually have this good conversation. I'd like to thank the councilwoman for her time as well. I want to highlight something here that I think needs to be said. What we're seeing nationally across the board right now has almost been a perfect storm. Not only have we had this COVID-19 disease that has impacted us on a global scale, which has made law enforcement and emergency services across the country work well, well beyond their normal tour of duty on any given day. And then you have to be a lot. And then you have the murder of George Floyd, which was horrific and broadcast around the world, followed up by protests and demonstrations and violence that occurred around the country. And you have people

that are frustrated right now. You have people that are frightened right now. I think it's important that we recognize all of us have been traumatized. But if we're acting by way or through that trauma, If we're reacting to what we've seen and experienced from that emotional point of view, then we're running the risk of making a mistake. The task force on 21st Century Policing Report is a blueprint on how policing needs to be done. I'm encouraging the city of Minneapolis to take a look at it. I actually wrote the blueprint for engagement for the city of Rochester. I will be more than happy to send that along too.

In fact, I would be more than happy to help anyone in the city of Minneapolis get to the point where they can actually rebuild to make sure that their community is as healthy as it possibly can be. There are concrete steps that can be taken. There are recommendations and action items that can be taken in order to make this a better scenario for everyone involved. But again, it turns into a conversation of priority. It does turn into a conversation of consent, but there has to be a level of priority established by a municipality, by a law enforcement. enforcement agency by a city council to say, this is what we are going to accept. This is what we are going to put our money towards. And this is going to be a permanent solution. This is fixable. And I think it's

time that we take a look at exactly how to fix this, how to reimagine law enforcement so that everyone is properly served in our communities could be healthy. Thank you, definitely chief, Wayne Harris. And thank you, Counselor Alandra Kano. This is one of the most, difficult and challenging debates in our society right now. You've both brought hard-won experience and more importantly, real civility to this vital conversation. So on behalf of our listeners, thank you for coming on the Monk debates today to debate the defunding of police. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. While that wraps up today's debate, again, I want to thank our participants, Minneapolis

counselor Alandro Cano, and Deputy Chief Wayne Harris. as they certainly gave us a lot to think about. The Monk Debates podcast is that special place for civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day. To listen to more debates on everything from life after COVID-19 to our changing cities, to the geopolitical rivalry of China and America, to the future of human progress, visit our website, monkdebates.com. You can also find show notes on today's debate. Thank you for helping us bring back the art of public debate.

one conversation at a time. I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffith. The Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by the Monk Foundation. Redyard Griffiths, Marilynne, Missouri, and Christina Campbell are the producers. The Monk Debates podcast is mixed by Philip Wilson. The president of Antica Productions is Stuart Cox. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating. Thanks again for listening.