The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it Resolved: Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's Best Hope of Winning in 2020

Episode Date: March 12, 2020

Can Joe Biden win the White House? On this episode of the Munk Debates Podcast, US President Barack Obama's former Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel debates The Intercept's Mehdi Hasan on the motion Be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope of winning in 2020. SOURCES: NBC, MSNBCBecome a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think it's time for this toxic binary zero-sum madness to stop. We're not an imperial power. We're a revolutionary power. We are no longer in a world where you can plot out moves statesman to statesmen like a chessboard. You don't know anything about my background where I came from. It doesn't matter to you because fundamentally I'm a mean white man. We can't do this to the next generation because America will cease to exist. Welcome to the Monk Debates podcast. Our mission every episode is to provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day, free of spin, focused on the facts, and animated by smart conversation. The goal of this podcast is to arm you, the listener, with enough information to make up your own mind about the issue up for debate. Today's debate. Be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope of winning. in 2020.

It's still early, but things are looking awful awful good. Let behind. This is your campaign. Hello, I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffith. After a stunning Super Tuesday comeback, Joe Biden has become the front rudder in the Democratic primary race, poised to become the standard bearer to take on Donald Trump in the general election. Moderate voters are rallying behind him, believing that he's the one who can appeal to key,

swing states that will determine this election, like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Modern voters believe that Joe Biden is a safe bet, someone who can work within the system for change instead of his rival Bernie Sanders, who's calling for a revolution. Progressive voters beg to disagree. Today, I say to the Democratic establishment, in order to win in the future, you need to win the voters. who represent the future of our country, and you must speak to the issues of concern to them. For Bernie Sanders' supporters, history is repeating itself. Nominating Biden as the Democratic candidate for president risks a do-over of 2016.

Like Hillary Clinton, he's supposedly another establishment candidate, weighed down by years of political baggage, ties to corporate America, and an inability to inspire voters. And like Hillary Clinton, he'll lose in November and usher in another four years of a Donald Trump presidency. On this argument of the Monk Debates podcast, we challenge the essence of these arguments by debating the resolution. Be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope for winning the White House in 2020. Arguing for the motion is Barack Obama's former chief of staff and the former mayor of Chicago. Rom Emanuel. Arguing against the motion is the intercepts Medi Hassan. Ram, Medi, welcome to the Monk Debates podcast.

Thanks for having us. Thank you. Well, look, as per debating convention, Rahm Emanuel, we're going to put two minutes on the clock. You are arguing in favor of this podcast's motion today. Be it resolved. Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope for winning the White House in 2020. Let's hear your opening remarks. I think Joe Biden is the best from a couple different angles of how you look at campaigns. One, if you look at going back to President Clinton in 92, 96, the midterms of 06, then Obama's 2008 and 2012 elections in 2018. The same kind of script for all six of those national elections happen, which is what I call a metropolitan majority built around an urban suburban resurgence for Democrats. That is true both for the White House. It's true when you run competitive Senate races, gubernatorial races, or for the congressional majorities. And in each of those cases, when you look at where Joe Biden is winning, it's from that same

template and playbook. And given now that this has been crystallized to a mono to mono between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden, Joe Biden has built a coalition and is outperforming both in the urban areas where African American voters are. And with this resurgence, as we've seen in Virginia and North Carolina in suburban areas of major metropolitan areas or major in urban areas. And those growths in Joe Biden's vote in the suburban area reflects where the Democrats did best in 2018,

which is how they created their House majority in exactly the congressional districts you'll need to win to win states and win those electoral votes. So when you compare where Bernie Sanders has done well and his vote versus Joe Biden, Joe Biden is actually picking up the resurgent interest by swing voters in the suburban areas, which replicates exactly what Bill Clinton, Barack Obama,

and the big midterms of 06 in 2018. Second is part of presidential elections is not just policy matches up, but character matches up. And I think Joe Biden exactly is the tone and tenor and capacity and capability to match up with the chaos and conflict of Donald Trump. And when you look back at how President Clinton won, President Obama won,

or you look at obviously any other presidential election, the character of the person, the biography, their story, matters as much as their policy. And I think Joe Biden from Scraton, Ohio, is working class of roots, how he made up his loss in his own personal story about his family and what happened matches up with the entitlement

perfectly against Donald Trump, who is a entitled child and a real estate developer. And I think also one of the key things, and this was where the two of them come together be the first point about where Joe Biden's winning, which is in the suburban areas, which are going to be key to the general election, and among swing voters and moderate voters who are never Trump or voters, is that they want somebody that will bring some calm, some coolness, and capability to the office because they are exhausted by Donald Trump's

constant chaos and conflict. And lastly, I think while he builds again on making sure that there's progress, his openness towards working across the aisle, actually works perfectly in contrast to all the weaknesses Donald Trump has, which is what voters have been expressing. So whether it's where he wins, how he wins, the character lineup and the policy differences with Donald Trump and his own personal bio, that contrast situates the Democrats perfect for replicating the type of victories President Clinton and President Obama put together and exactly in the states with the exact geography. And I'd take one side note.

There's only three Democrats that have won re-election in the last hundred years. Franklin Roosevelt, Barack Obama, and Bill Clinton. And where they won and how they won among what groups they won are very similar, especially President Clinton and President Obama. And Joe Biden has the greatest capacity to replicate that. The one thing I will say about Bernie Sanders in this area, his own group, Our Revolution, went zero for 20 in 2018. He is right. He was able to energize voters. The problem for him is he's energized moderate voters, not the base. And he himself has acknowledged the young voters that he planned on producing did not show up.

Ron Manuel, thank you for that opening statement. You covered the key issues. And now we get a chance to have the reply, the refutation of our resolution, be it resolved. Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope for winning the White House in 2020. And we turn to Medi Hassan. So, Medi, let's have your. your opening remarks. Thank you so much. Good to be here. Let me just start by agreeing with Rahm Emanuel that Donald Trump is indeed an entitled child. I think we can both agree on that. Let's have a vote on that resolution right now. I think we're on the same side there. The motion that we're debating today is be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope of winning in 2020. And when I read that out loud, I genuinely don't know whether to laugh or cry because 28 Democrats, I believe, put their hat in the ring to try and be their party's nominee. Moderate and progressive, young and old, male and female, straight and gay, white and black.

And yet now we're told that out of all of them, we're expected to believe out of the governors, the senators, the mayors, the business leaders. The best hope, the best hope that the Democratic Party has of winning back the White House in 2020 is the establishment candidate who spent the last half century, almost 50 years in Washington, D.C., often as a proxy for the credit card industry and other special interests. And by the way, I'm sorry to say, is also in some sort of decline in front of our eyes, unable to remember names and places, unable to complete simple sentences, unable to quote from the most famous line of the Declaration of Independence, as we all heard

just a few days ago. So I have two objections to this motion, two objections to the idea that Biden is the best man for the job. Number one, we've been here before. One name Rahm didn't mention in his very eloquent opening was Hillary Clinton. The Democrats tried to beat Trump in 2016 with a centrist, moderate establishment insider who was pro the Iraq war, pro Wall Street, pro-nafter, pro-mass incarceration, and how did that work out for them? Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. And my number two objection to Biden is even if you think the path to victory lies in a

business as usual, don't rock the boat, middle of the road, bland centrist. In what world is Biden a better bet than all of those other moderates who fell along the wayside before him? The Buttigiegs, the Klobuchar, the Bacus, the bakers, the baiters. How is this fragile, thin-skinned, incoherent politician going to stand up to the vicious and relentless attacks that are going to come at him from the Trump campaign and the Fox News echo chamber today? That's what I'd like to hear from Rahm today. How is this Hillary 2.0 candidate with all of Hillary's weaknesses and very few of her strengths going to withstand the attacks that Hillary couldn't and win an election that Hillary couldn't? I'm not saying Biden can't win, but I do really worry that he won't. Medi Hassan, thank you for that opening remark to our debate.

Now, what I want to do, guys, is give you a chance to rebut what you've just heard from one another. Pick out a key argument, pick out a key point that you want to refute. Let's hesitate on building on our existing arguments for now. Instead, I want to hear what you want to criticize in each other's point of view here. So Rahm Emanuel, over to you first. It's down to two people. The choices are Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden. And it's not Joe Biden.

and it's not some third mystical, magical person. And when it comes to beating Donald Trump, Joe Biden is the best foot forward in that area. Now, I've worked for candidates and everybody had certain views in the primary about Bill Clinton, not being the best, Barack Obama, not being the best. Every candidate, Donald Trump has flaws,

Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden have flaws. But Joe Biden is the best capable of the candidates here to put together the broadest, deepest coalition, and he actually brings a strengths which was not mentioned. Now, you said he's just a replica of all the weaknesses that Hillary Clinton has with none of the strengths. When you do a post-mortem on 2016, Hillary did not do well with working class non-college voters.

In fact, Joe Biden does very well with those voters because that's where he's from. That is the story of a young man who grew up in Scranton, Pennsylvania. It's a story he understands because he knows the challenges, the trials, the tribulations, working people. And he brings a comfort level to those voters, not that he will be able to win them, but he will actually not lose them in the way that Hillary did. And if Joe Biden can get among those type of voters, let alone a strong urban turnout, an incredibly strong suburban turnout,

then you're talking about a winning coalition in the way President Obama did just a short time ago, and President Clinton did just a short time ago, and the Democrats did in both 2006 and 2018. So that replication of a broad-based coalition among all types of people with different backgrounds and ethnicities. And you mentioned that he would just be merely another failure of Hillary Clinton. I would say he brings an asset and a comfort level with a group of voters that actually showed up as the vulnerability that cost Hillary, the presidency in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, which were must-wins and not only just must-wins, have been historically very reliable democratic states. Joe Biden's comfort level and dialogue with working class voters will become a real strength.

And the other people that confirm my view are the Trump people, which is why they're so scared of Biden. They have said it themselves. They've gone after attacking his family. They're not doing that to Bernie Sanders and his family, which has vulnerabilities. And that tells you who they're very scared of. Thank you for that rebuttal, Rahm. Okay, Medi, what part of Rahm's argument do you want to challenge for our listeners?

Okay, so just a couple of things very quickly. From what Rahm was saying there about, you know, it's only three candidates left in this race. It is only a two-horse race between Bernie and Biden. I got the distinct impression that he's conceding. Biden wouldn't have been his first choice, but given it's only Bernie Biden, he picks Biden over Bernie. And the other thing I would say is in terms of...

I didn't, I said it sounded like you were conceding. Maybe you don't. Maybe Biden was your first choice. Now you're sounding like a discussion with my wife. I never said that. Yeah, if I want that... You brought up the fact that... If you want to say,

want to act like that, I'll just go home and have this discussion at home. No, I could just ask you straight up then. Was she your first candidate from day one? Did you believe a year ago that he's the best chance? Or only now because it's between him and Bernie? Yeah, I've worked very long with Joe Biden going back when he proposed the Violence Against Women Act, when he sponsored the assault weapon bat. I worked with him. My office was next door to his chief of staff and vice president, and he was a key partner in making sure that we secured the president's agenda. And he was always He's there not only securing the votes for the health care, securing the votes for the Recovery Act. Joe Biden took all the unpopular things that the president wanted that. So I actually do believe

he's the best candidate. Fair enough. And the other point that you raised about them not being fearful of Bernie, not quite true. If you listen to the left Parnas recording of Donald Trump, which is actually Trump at his most honest, if I can dare say such a statement, because he's never honest. But in private, where he didn't know he was being recorded, he talked about how worried he was in 2016 that Bernie would be Hillary's vice presidential choice because Bernie would hurt him on trade in those blue-collar areas that you mentioned, Rahm. And in terms of those blue-collar areas, just to rebut what you talked about, I mean, if the argument is that white working class voters are the key to his election, then Bernie Sanders, the person you're saying

it's a head-to-head between, is also very strong in those areas. If you look at the real clear politics average in Wisconsin, for example, which is perhaps the most crucial state in the country, Bernie has a marginal lead in a head-to-head with Trump. Biden is marginally behind. of course all within the margin of error. I'm just making the point that they're both doing well with those groups against Trump in those states. You mentioned in your opening remarks there there's only three Democratic presidents have been reelected, Obama, Clinton and FDR and made the analogy between those three and Biden. I find that odd given if you're going to make an analogy with a candidate in this race with FDR would have to be Bernie. It's Bernie

who's taking on quote unquote the billionaire class. It's FDR who famously said I welcome the hatred of the kind of the rich princes and the oligarchs and the billionaires of that time. Biden, on the other hand, is a man who says, I don't blame 500 billionaires for the problems in this country. Biden's a man who went to a group of rich donors last year in New York in a private gathering and said, your lifestyle won't change, your standard of living won't change. Nothing fundamentally will change. I do worry that given that record that he has with his rich donors, with billionaires, given the record he has on trade, in those areas that you rightly identify around,

actually, once the general election comes around, Trump will do to Biden what he did to Hillary, which is attack him from the left on trade, on Wall Street. on Goldman Sachs, etc., etc. We will see a replay of the 2016 playbook, and God forbid a replay of the 2016 election result. The one thing you're right about, we will see the replay of losing the suburbs because if Bernie's the candidate,

all those voters that have become Democrats will go back to form and become Republicans again. You're listening to the Monk Debates podcast. Be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope of winning in 2020. If you like this podcast, make sure to check out our other episodes, including debates on everything from impeachment to social media to sanctions in Iran, all free to download or stream on our website. Moncdebates.com. Now, back to the episode.

So, Ron, paint us a picture about why you think there isn't this heightened risk that Madi Hassan and others see in Biden in terms of his voting record, in terms of his position is placed within the party. Yeah, well, let's take one issue. He talks about trade. And, you know, Joe Biden has a very strong record of helping the president secure the auto industry, the manufacturing base and foundation of this country. When the auto industry was literally on its last breath, we were able to tap the resources once meant for banks to actually save both GM and Chrysler and thousands upon thousands of jobs through Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, where those manufacturing jobs are. And so he has a record that when they were in need, he was there. Now, had Bernie Sanders vote existed, those voters would have gone. And those industries would have been gone. And they'd now be under the label of some foreign auto company, not American-based auto companies. Number two, and Hassan did this artfully, and so I give him credit. I never said the key vote was working class voters. I said, in fact, I've been very clear in my writings and here that you put together a metropolitan majority, which is an urban suburban

jugger nut, but Joe brings something that Hillary did not have, which is a familiarity and a comfort level among working class voters in the blue collar areas that make up Toledo, Akron, Sagina, Flint, outside of the Detroit metropolitan area. And to me, that ability to both hold your own among what could have been a slam dunk for Donald Trump and then run up the numbers in Detroit, and the surrounding community, that's exactly how you win, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona,

and you put a whole bunch of states in play that would not have happened. So I do think he has a very strong record. I think he has a strong record and a strong appeal because he did have a key role in saving the auto industry. And he had a key role in making sure that while the working class of this country

that we not only saved the auto industry and gave it the resources, we also then had the resources to invest in the new industries like solar and wind that are all populated and being manufactured and pre-produced in the Midwest. So, Medi Hassan, come back on that. I mean, what is the essence of your critique of Biden? I mean, is this a critique of policy, of personality?

Where do you see the key weakness in him as a candidate? Okay. So can I answer that in just one moment and just deal very brief with what Rahm just mentioned? I want to concede and agree with Ron that he's right. He is right that Biden is definitely going to be a more comfortable choice. with some of those white working class voters, especially those who were kind of culturally resentful, even racially resentful,

than Hillary Clinton was in 2016. I'll concede that. But the problem about going after the auto bailout is, yes, he did do a good job, and Obama did. And that was that great Biden line about thanks to us, GM is alive and bin Laden is dead, which I thought was a great line from Biden in 2012, back when Biden was much sharper.

But the problem is he admits the fact that obviously hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs were also lost under the Obama-Biden period. and the trade issue. He kind of didn't deal with the trade issue, which is he helped Obama with the auto bailout. Yes, he also helped Obama with the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which was so unpopular in 2016 and so brilliantly weaponized by Trump that Hillary Clinton had to disown it. But it was too late. It wasn't done with any sincerity.

Bernie is hitting him hard now on things that Trump will also hit him hard on, which is NAFTA, which is TPP. I think anyone would be mad to say that the trade deals didn't help Trump in 2016. I think Biden has to come up with an answer for that. And in terms of your question, Rodion about, you know, what is my main critique? My main critique is it's interconnected. I think he's got a bad policy record, both on the economy, in terms of his record on the, for example, the bankruptcy bill vote, which Obama and Hillary Clinton, by the way, opposed in 2005. But Biden voted for, which kind of screwed over the same constituencies that Rahm says will come back to him now. And it's also his personality as well, because he has this bad record on trade, on the bankruptcy bill, on the crime.

bill on Iraq. And then I worry that when he's hit on this record, he isn't strong enough to push back. Maybe the Biden of 2012, who ran rings around Paul Ryan and the vice presidential debate could hit back. I don't believe the Joe Biden of 2020, who couldn't win even a single debate against his fellow Democrats, is going to be able to take on Donald Trump with the strength and passion and ferocity and consistency that's needed. I do genuinely worry about that. Here's the one thing that I notice that you keep wanting to talk about one element. The fact is, Bernie Sanders in the suburbs would return those voters who in 2018, 2019, across this country, different parts of the country,

have all flocked to the Democrats. Bernie Sanders would say, do not, you're not welcome. Where's the evidence for that? No. Where's the evidence for that? Bernie is more popular than Biden with independents in every poll. Let's go. I mean, the poll is he wins in every.

Virginia, North Carolina. In all of the Super Tuesday. In all those states. In all those states, in all those states, wait a second, let me show us. In all those states. Bernie Sanders lost. In 2018, his hour- He won with independence

in the majority of Super Tuesday states. If you're talking about people flocking from one party to another, you cannot ignore the fact that nationally in polling, Bernie outperforms Biden with independence. And in the Super Tuesday states, hold on let me finish now.

Bernie then won a majority of the states in terms of independence. He lost Super Tuesdays, and I agree. But if you're talking about independence, actually Bernie is very popular in independence. Okay, let's make sure Rom can come back on that.

Rom, you have the floor. No, and I'm very comfortable. Here's the difference between us. Having worked in two presidential elections and ran the efforts for the Democrats in 2006, the difference between us, having done those campaigns, I'm not interested in a polling at this moment, which is only a snapshot. Agreed. What happened to Virginia was not a snapshot.

It was an election. Okay. It's not a poll. What happened in North Carolina the other day, not a snapshot, an actual election. And what I do know is that Bernie Sanders promised for over five years, he was going to get a massive turnout of young voters. did not happen. A massive turnout in the suburbs happened.

All of them went, all the suburban districts around Raleigh, around Durham, around Richmond, Virginia, around D.C. suburbs turned out in massive numbers for Joe. That's also true at Houston. It's also true in Dallas. That is what happened.

It's not a snapshot. It's an actual vote. Those are the districts that mattered to create the Democratic majority in 2018. And Bernie Sanders would take all those voters, and it's quite clear by the elections, and he would reject them. And that's how in 2018 and 2019, the Democrats took the majority.

Okay. Our revolution, the PAC set up by Bernie, went zero for 20 in 2018. Even a blind squirrel could have won one in 2018. Let me come back on that then. So number one, I agree with you. The turnout, the youth turnout didn't work. That's why Bernie's losing. I think that's a problem and the Bernie campaign need to work that out.

Completely agree with you. And I also agree with you that polling is only a snapshot, which is why, as I mentioned to Rudyard earlier, I'm worried about the attacks that are coming down the line. What's going to happen to Biden's polling when he does get hit on all the things that the Democrats held back on, that the media held back on. Not a single question at any of the 10 debates about the bankruptcy bill. Oh, I can assure you the Republicans are going to be coming in him for all those things. So yes, I agree. It's a snapshot, but that also works against Biden wants his records on the line. Separately, on terms of your point about Virginia and states voting,

Ron, those are primary states. Those are Democrats. If you and I were having this conversation in 2016, you could have said to me, Medi, Hillary Clinton. I know you don't want to talk about Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton won Pennsylvania. She beat Bernie in Pennsylvania. How did that work out in the general election. She lost Pennsylvania. The fact that you win a state in the primaries does not mean you're going to win in the general. You know that. Here's what we do know. Every one of the Democrats in 2018 who flipped a Republican district to a Democratic district, not one of them of Adores Bernie and all of them adores Joe Biden. And they're doing it not just out of comfort, but out political necessity. Okay. They know in their districts, Bernie Sanders would be a

20 pound weight around their neck and it's hard enough in the presidential year. Okay. And again, Not one. As I've been trying to do, of the 44, not one. And I want to find, hold on, let me finish the sentence. I want to find common ground with you, Ram. So I'll concede with you. I don't want to find common ground with you.

Well, that's your choice. I'm trying to find common ground with you and say, I'm comfortable without common ground. You're comfortable, fine. I'm trying to find common ground and say, fine, in the midter, in terms of congressional races, in some states,

will Bernie be a problem? Yeah, maybe. But that's not what we're here to debate today. We're here to debate the White House. And when we talk about the White House, the record is 2016 Hillary Clinton Establishment candidate lost. 2004, John Kerry, establishment candidate

lost. 2000, Al Gore, establishment candidate lost. That is a, that's the record. The White House does not operate on the same principle as midterm elections in congressional districts. Bernie Sanders. You worked for Barack Obama who was an outsider anti-establishment candidate. He was not the Biden candidate of 2008. You know that and I know that.

Yeah. What I do know is that every one of these congressional districts that you seem to dismiss are they exactly. I'm not dismissing, but we're here to discuss the presidential race. You don't want to talk about the last presidential race in which your candidate, your favorite candidate, Hillary Clinton, lost. And we're running the same playbook. No, what we are is doing, and we've already described

the differences between Joe Biden. Not really. Iraq War, Wall Street, free trade, mass incarceration, establishment candidate. Those are pretty big similarities between Clinton and Biden. I haven't heard you reject that. Let's let Ron have the floor here for a second. Okay, Ron.

We talked about, as I laid out in the opening, and we talked now about votes, I've noticed that you didn't touch on the subject. of the character. The fact is that part of this, like Bill Clinton and like Barack Obama, their character matched up against the contrast of George Bush and John McCain, or Mitt Romney, or Bob Dole. And when you look at part of elections into the future, it's also all the things you're unhappy about at this moment. And Joe Biden's background, his character, where he grew up, how he grew up, what the things that he overcome, the personal losses in his family. That story,

that biography is a perfect contrast to the incumbent president whose name shall not be mentioned on this show. Okay. Because I cannot say his name. Ron, if I could just jump in here for a second, Maddie, because we're going to stick on character for a sec. Because it's unique having Rahm Emanuel with us today. Because as he mentioned, he had his office next door to Joe Biden. So I think it would be interesting for people to hear from you, Rahm, about why you're as confident or enthusiastic or are you of the Joe Biden of 2020. versus the Joe Biden that you worked with in the administration,

the Joe Biden of the two elections previous, who seemed to be arguably more fluid, more dynamic, a younger version of an older self that we see on the campaign trail today. Let me say one of the things that I believe this, having not only worked in two White Houses, but also studied the presidency, I used to say to President Clinton,

if we knew in the first year of the first term what we knew by the first year of the second term, we'd all be geniuses. You want somebody that grows, develops, learns from mistakes. And if you look at like, take one event out of history, thank God the Bay of Pigs happened before the Cuban missile crisis because Kennedy needed that failure to learn

for what was then a nuclear standoff. And he did. And he understood something about the Joint Chiefs. Joe Biden, not being vice president, doesn't guarantee you anything, but he has learned a lot. He has experienced a lot. And he was willing to take on all the unpopular things.

Now, beyond policy things, I think there's a part of Joe Biden's character that people don't find offensive. And one of the things that I worry about in this country is a country that's being ripped apart along racial lines, educational lines, gender lines, geography lines, philosophical lines,

where people are balkanizing themselves to only agreed groups and then literally demonizing everybody else. Joe's capacity to work, not just with people from the other side of the aisle, but more importantly, he doesn't have an offensiveness to him. And I think a president has a soft power

that comes to that office. And that beyond, yeah, there's a voting record. Got it. Both candidates have a voting record, Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. And both will have a record that's going to be pulled apart. Not like one of them has a perfect, pristine record and the other one has a crappy record. But actually what Biden brings is something that is actually in a very balkanized period of time in American history, a period of time where unlike the charity towards all, or we

have nothing to fear but fear itself, in this period of time of divisiveness, We don't have that president. We have a president who stokes those divisions. And I think his biggest asset when I talk about character is, yes, it's not offensive. Yes, it's actually comforting for people. I actually think those are the qualities you want at a point where not our leadership or our follow ship, but we're looking for fellowship. And I think Joe Bryden brings something to the table. It's an essence where even when you disagree, he is not disagreeable.

And to me, at a time where people are exonerable, exhausted from politics that is our version of hunger games, I think that character is immensely valuable at this moment. Okay, this is really interesting, guys. So, Medi, I want you to come back on this because it's something we're obviously all thinking about. Is America searching for the antidote to the kind of hot politics of populism that President Trump has been such an effective purveyor of? Or, you know, is it a mistake for the Democratic Party to move away from this acknowledging that this is a populist moment we're in and people are looking for a populist candidate, but on the center left. Yeah, I do think there are populist moments all over the world. It depends

on how you interpret that populism from a kind of right-wing racist perspective or from a left-wing economic populist perspective. I mean, I agree with Rahm, who said back in 2016 after the election, he said, the voters took a cudgel and a hammer to the political system because it wasn't working. I agree with him then. And I think that still applies today. In terms of the character argument on Biden. Just a couple of things on the character line. Number one, this idea that, you know, he's a better person than Donald Trump, I would argue that's a very low bar. Everybody is a better person than Donald Trump. I could call an Uber right now and the first driver that turns up would be a better person than Donald Trump. So if that's the criteria for being president, any of us could be

president right now. It's a very low bar and I think we should expect more from the next Democratic President of United States than just being not Trump. In terms of his offensiveness, I would half agree with arm that yes, in a general sense, he's not an offensive person, he's the kind of person, I'm sure people could imagine having a drink with and going to a barbecue with those kind of intangible qualities. You know, he's not a personally offensive person. On the other hand, though, he told a voter who disagreed him that he's full of shit. He told another voter recently, you're a lying dog-faced pony soldier, whatever that means. He called one voter a damn liar and fat who challenged him on his son. So he has a kind of side to him that might

cause problems in the run-up to the election. And by the way, just on terms of the family. He has an amazing backstory and a very sad backstory involving his family. Ram's right to raise that. But how can we ignore that he also has a son who's going to be all over the news for the rest of the year? The Republicans are already planning to hold ridiculously cynical hearings, but damaging hearings where they're going to call Hunter Biden. It's going to be Burisma, Burisma, Burisma. And again, it's a bit short-sighted for Democrats to pretend that his son, and Biden didn't do anything wrong in Ukraine. That was a lie by Trump. But there's no doubt that members of his family have traded off his name. Hunter Biden was making.

50K a month sitting on the board of Burisma when he really shouldn't have been. And for the rest of this year, I worry that Burisma and Hunter Biden are going to be Biden's emails. Let me say this. I mean, first of all, I don't want to bring it all up. It's not what we're here to talk about. It's not like Bernie Sanders family is a pristine family either. So both were going to have that. Okay, I didn't say you that.

I'm just saying that it's not like one person has all these problems. The other one has none of those problems. Here's the point. John Kennedy was an answer to all the things that people were aching for. after eight years of Eisenhower. That is also true of Bill Clinton after 12 years of Reagan and Bush. They were aching in the middle of a recession

for a new level of energy. Every presidential candidate and race is somewhat an answer to what people find is short and misgiving about the present. And Joe Biden's strength of character, his comfort level where people actually feel he is like an Uncle Joe relatable, in a level, does match up against this constant conflict, this constant fighting, and people that are

important to voters in this election, stylistically, as much as policy-wise, matches up perfectly to Donald Trump. You're not worried about the Republicans doing to him what they did to Hillary with emails and Burisma and Hunter? No, listen, I'm worried about what the Republicans and the Russians are going to do, not just the Republicans. I think I'm worried about both of them. Can he withstand it?

Yes, he can withstand it. And I also think you've got to get prepared because last time it was just theoretical. I think if I would say it, I think the media this time is going to be a lot sharper than they were when they just, given that we're doing the show also, after the new series about Hillary, after all those stories about the emails and turns out to be a big nothing, given the Schorinstein report out of Harvard about how the mainstream media handling. I think they're going to be much smarter about this. I'm hoping they will. I hope you're right, but I'm not so sure. Given that, I do think, look, we're down to two choices. Who both on policy, politics, and character match up against all of the vulnerabilities

Donald Trump has. He has certain strengths going into this. On policy, it's Bernie. What policies is Biden bringing to the table to turn things around? The problem is... He doesn't even talk about policy. Look, we just had a set of primaries. The country is not going to turn her away from a far right for a far left screamer as much conflict. And Bernie Sanders, on policy, in fact, all the things things like Medicare for all, and people have rejected, not only in the Democratic Party?

No, that's not true, Rahm. Sorry, that's not true. In every poll that was, in every state that was polled on Super Tuesday, a majority of Democrats supported Medicare for All. You know that. Now, you rejected this,

but since you rejected it once, I'm going to make sure that you rejected a second time. Okay. Which is in those primaries, asking Democratic primaries, it doesn't tell you something about the general election. What I do know is not one candidate who ran in 2018 and flipped a red district

to a blue district, ran on Medicare for all. They ran on price management and control. They ran on access to prescription drugs. They ran on access to better quality education. Look, if it's all about just one person's wallet, that's all it is and that we're going to make every voter reduced to different compartments of their wallet. Free Medicare, free incomes and free education should be a slam dunk.

In the states that ran last time, Bernie Sanders is losing those states and he's losing key parts of the geography that matter. But not because of his policy, but because of this, because of the debate we're having today about who's more electable. I think that's what's clear. It's not because of policy. People say they like the policies. They just worry that Bernie's not as electable as Biden.

And that's what we're debating today. I'm saying Biden's not that electable when you look at him. Well, I'm sorry. Wait a second. Democrats have been clear for the last two years. Bernie doesn't want to acknowledge it in his supporters, which is one thing. Number one, number two, number three they care about is beating Donald Trump.

They will even vote for it. And they've said it repeatedly that they'll vote. But is Biden the best guy for that? I say no, you say yes. That's what we're arguing about today. No, we're having a discussion. No, I thought we were having an argument because you said you didn't want to meet me in a halfway anywhere. We're having a fierce disagreement.

That's what it is. Joe Biden, between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, who's the best to go forward against Donald Trump and beat him? Indeed. That is the number one goal for Democrats. Joe Biden matches up the best. Okay. Both on the quality of the character, the electability and the coalition that he put together as a better character than Bernie Sanders. I'm not sure where you get that from.

Well, very simple. I've served in the Congress with Bernie Sanders. I served in the White House with Joe Biden, and I can make a judgment of character because I've worked with both of them. You're listening to the Monk Debates podcast. Be it resolved, Joe Biden is the Democratic Party's best hope of winning in 2020. Arguing for the motion is Rahm Emanuel,

former chief of staff for U.S. President Barack Obama. Arguing against the motion is Mady Hassan. He's a senior columnist at The Intercept and host of Al Jazeera's Upfront. Now, back to the episode. Guys, before we go to closing statements, let's just talk a little bit about this pandemic and how that is likely to play out in terms of the Democratic primaries, the choices that voters are going to make.

Because Medi Hassan, isn't there an argument out there that with this just additional kind of ramping up of the fear factor with COVID-19, that wouldn't voters just inherently be looking for that? more conventional, safer, familiar candidate to secure the White House, to bring some calm to what is a pretty frightening moment? Yes, on the one hand, yes, but I would push back in two ways. First of all, I think what COVID-19 is illustrated, and I say that as an immigrant living in the US with my family, is that you don't have universal health care in this country. And it's the best argument for everyone having health care is a pandemic. Also, the best argument for everyone

having paid sick leave, which America is the only industrial country without it, is again, a pandemic where people are being told to stay at home. So I would argue the Bernie policy platform is actually ideally suited to a time when people are looking to government for some sort of solace solution support. I would also say that at a time, oh, by the way, Bernie's the only candidate, I believe, who said the vaccine when it's developed should be free. And the second point I would say is the Republicans are not going to go quietly. I think even Ron would agree on that. They're already pivoting into kind of racism, build a bigger wall, blame China. They're going to scapegoat minorities again in some shape or form. Trump is going to push back

very hard. Who knows, if God forbid this becomes worse and worse, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he starts floating, you know, let's postpone the election or some other ludicrous thing. At a time like that, you need a candidate who can push back very hard. And it's not the guy Joe Biden who says stuff like, I can work with Mitch McConnell and Republicans will have an epiphany once Donald Trump has gone. Biden is very naive in his handling of the Republican Party. And I think Bernie Sanders is a much tougher choice when it comes to pushing back against an authoritarian and conspiratorial anti-science Republican Party. Look, the virus points up all the weaknesses that have been accumulating about Donald Trump. One, it includes science. Two, it includes transparency. Three, it includes

leveling with people, honestly, about the size, scale, and scope of the problem. And then four, it's giving people comfort that somebody's in charge and accountable. And when you measure up all the things that a pandemic needs or any crisis, but in a pandemic situation, this is all of Donald Trump's worst skill set. Now, some people used to criticize President Obama as cold, very technical, very, you know, analytical, et cetera. That's exactly the skill set you want for something because he can and then basically carry it out. When it came to the auto bailout, when it came to seeing through the stimulus bill, when it came through to seeing different policies that the president needed, even the Iraq piece.

He gave all those assignments to Joe Biden because he was dogged. People could trust him and he could work through a difficult problem to its conclusion. Those are exactly what you need in this situation. One of the things that we know from pandemics, in every crisis, it's not just pandemics, you have to bring overwhelming force on the front end. That is what the President Obama did on the economy. It was headed to a depression and he pulled it back from that, using overwhelming force. Do we get everything right? No, but we got the one thing you had to get right.

Overwhelming this president by delaying is making a bet about politics, not about science and medicine. And if he's wrong, it's going to be extremely costly for this country. Thank you both guys. I thought we had to touch on that. So let's go to closing remarks, just a minute or so on the clock. So Medi Hassan, you're going to go first and then Rahm Emanuel, maybe as you're used to, you're going to get the last word. Actually, I guess your wife is used to that, but this time will be nice to you give you the last. We just fiercely agree. We just, yeah, we're all married to the same woman. Let's be very clear about it.

We're just, we're fiercely agreeing. That's all I want to say. Go, Medi Hassan. Let me be clear what my position in this debate today is. I'm not saying Joe Biden will definitely lose to Donald Trump. I'm not making predictions. I gave up on predictions in 2016 after Brexit and Trump. What I am saying is that all of the polls have consistently shown that all of the

major Democratic candidates who were running could beat Trump, including Bernie Sanders. So why on earth are Democrats going with the guy who is the weakest in my view out of all of those candidates? the guy with the most baggage, thin as skin, least enthusiastic supporters, and the guy with the most toxic policy legacy. I mentioned the bankruptcy bill, the crime bill. We didn't talk very much about Iraq today. There's academic studies suggesting that Hillary Clinton lost votes in swing states, including Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan because of her position on Iraq.

And Ram, I know Rahm supported the Iraq War, but the candidate he worked for who won twice Barack Obama, opposed Iraq War, of course. And of course, Joe Biden, we didn't, again talk very much about this. it's sensitive, but it is important. This is a guy who is clearly sunsetsing in front of our very eyes. Ram worked with him next door to him. We heard about those experiences. But that was 2008. That was 2012. This Biden is a very different candidate. This is also a candidate who's, I'm sorry to say, just make stuff up. I mean, he spent much of February saying that he was arrested in South Africa trying to see Nelson Mandela and then had to fess up on live TV that

he wasn't arrested. So I do worry that Trump is going to chew up and spit out Joe Biden on the debate stage, assuming there are, in fact, presidential debates. this time around. And let me finish by saying this. You don't have to like Bernie Sanders to oppose this motion. But what you do have to do is recognize that Biden is far from the best Democratic candidate on offer in the cycle. He wasn't even the best moderate on offer. And if you think he's the safe choice, the safe choice to take on Trump, then I have a degree from Trump University to award you. Okay, Midei Hassan, thank you for those closing words. We're now going to turn to Rahm Emanuel for the last part of this debate, his closing statement.

Joe Biden is best answered to Donald Trump. he has proven time and again that he can get the biggest, broadest coalition to show up and vote for Democrats. There's a whole group of Democrats that are energized, the most important constituency, African-American voters, that Bernie Sanders cannot seem to crack. Number two, the new Republican are swing voters that are in swing states, which is why we call them swing states, because they're overpopulated with swing voters, are most comfortable with Joe Biden. And we need a big, broad-based coalition. And unlike in 2016, which is not the best analogy, but not the perfect analogy.

Donald Trump is a reality last time he was not. And Hillary was the establishment last time. And one of the things that Hassan hasn't caught on to, this time Donald Trump is the establishment. And he owns, like the response on virus, he owns what happens to the economy, not the Democrats. It's not a continuity of another four years of Barack Obama.

And he doesn't get to be run against the establishment because he has become the establishment. And what Joe Biden does in character, what he does in the coalition he puts together, and the ability to make Donald Trump own an answer for the failings of his administration will become actually the fodder that leads to a Biden presidency. Rahmanual, thank you. Medi Hassan, thank you also. You know, a sign of a great debate is when the moderator becomes superfluous.

And you've both ensured that that happened numerous times throughout our conversation. And again, I thank you for that. I thank you for the civility and the substance of this debate, something that is all too often lacking in these types of conversations. So you've both, I think, elevated and enervated our discussion of this important issue, U.S. politics going into the autumn. So thanks so much, guys. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, that wraps up today's debate. Great to have Medi Hassan and Rahm Emanuel on the program. They both give us a lot to think about. The Monk Debates podcast is a place for civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day. To listen to more debates on everything from climate change to religion, to geopolitics, to the future of human progress, visit our website, monkdebates.com. You can also find show notes on today's debate.

Thank you for helping us bring back the art of public debate one conversation at a time. I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffith. The Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by the Monk Foundation. Redyard Griffiths and Ricky Gurwitz are the producers. The president of Antica Productions is Stuart Cox. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating. Thanks again for listening.