The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it resolved: Safety and fairness preclude participation of trans athletes in high level women's sport

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Starting point is 00:00:32 Every episode we provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day to arm you, the listener, with enough information to make up your own mind. Today's debate, be a resolved. Safety and fairness preclude participation of trans athletes in high-level women's sport. At 6'2, weighing 100 kilos and blessed with a mighty kicking boot, Hannah Mouncey should have been a shoe-in to play at the...

Starting point is 00:01:01 elite level of the women's Aussie rules competition. A Canadian transgender athlete is facing a backlash after winning the cycling world championship. This is about are trans women actually women? And it's clear that legally and socially we are. So

Starting point is 00:01:17 why exclude us from sport? Hello, I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffith. Well, for almost a century now, the international sporting community has grappled with the question of how to determine who gets to compete in female sports. 50 years ago, the question was answered with humiliating physical exams, but in more recent decades,

Starting point is 00:01:39 most international sporting federations have embraced a science-focused approach. The International Olympic Committee, for example, uses testosterone levels considerably above the normal female range, not gender, as the main determinant of who gets to compete in a women's elite sport event. But last October, World Rugby made international headlines when it announced a very different approach. The international governing body for rugby's new guidelines prohibit transgender athletes from playing elite women's rugby because of concerns over the safety of its players. Here's World Rugby sharing the thinking that went into their decision. Rugby is unique in that it's the only contact sport for. for women at the Olympic level.

Starting point is 00:02:30 And so it's not simply a matter of, you know, what's the speed difference between a woman and any trans women. There are a lot of things. Speed, power, strength, endurance. All of these are combined in the rugby game. And we need to be able to understand how, or if there will be any safety challenges with that. Advocates for trans athletes say that these new guidelines

Starting point is 00:02:53 are discriminatory, not the least because they underestimate the extent to which hormone therapy and surgery diminish the biological advantages of being born male. They also argue that it's dangerous for international sporting bodies to try and regulate the factors that go into superior performance. A complex matter at the best of times that cannot be reduced solely to a gender binary. And let's face it, the reason why many competitive sports exist and attract an audience, that being the desire for people to see. superior athletic performance. Athletes come in a huge range of shapes and sizes and natural abilities.

Starting point is 00:03:35 Population demographics around the world are different. So Dutch women average height is over 5 foot 6. Indonesian women is around 4 foot 10. So sport is never level if by which we mean no one has a competitive advantage over each other, because that's the point of sport. Advocates for women's sports say that for reasons of basic fairness and safety, more governing bodies should adopt guidelines that prevent biological males from participating in female sport. They argue that trans women who are born male enjoy immense

Starting point is 00:04:08 physical advantages that are not eliminated through testosterone therapy or castration. Here's British swimmer Sharon Davies. Unfortunately, if you're a transgender woman, you would have spent a fair bit of your life and puberty as a man or as a boy, and you would have the male benefits that that would give you, and that makes it an unfair playing field for other women. Female athletes argue that the increasing participation of trans women in their divisions is pushing them off the podium and undermining the whole reason behind creating a women's sports category in the first place. On this installment of the Monk debates, we challenge the essence of these arguments by debating the motion,

Starting point is 00:04:50 be it resolved, safety and fairness preclude the participation of trans athletes. in high-level women's sport. Speaking for the motion is Linda Blade, a former track and field champion who competed internationally with Team Canada, in the heptathlon, a professional track and field coach and president of Alberta athletics.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Arguing against the motion is Joanna Harper, a trans athlete who published the first peer review study on the effect of athletic performance on different hormonal values. She's an advisor to the International Olympic Committee on Gender and Sport an author of the book, Sporting Gender,

Starting point is 00:05:29 the History, Science, and Stories of Transgender and Intersex Athletes. Linda, Joanna, welcome to the Monk Debates. Hi, Rudyard. How are you? Thank you. Okay, look, this debate has been many, many weeks in the making. Our production team has scoured the world for two really thoughtful experts on this important topic. And I just want to acknowledge, to both,

Starting point is 00:05:56 of you and to our listeners that you know this debate is a is a challenging one it's not only challenging because of the science and the issues at stake here elite competition on the part of women and the importance of sport and our culture and our lives this is a debate that ultimately does touch on really fundamental questions of identity for people so i just really appreciate the fact that both of you are willing to debate this subject and that you're entering into this conversation with your mutual civility and respect for debate as a way of hopefully providing people with new perspectives, new insights on important issues and ideas. So on behalf of the Monk Debates community, thank you so much for being part of today's program. Our resolution is a

Starting point is 00:06:44 simple and direct one. It's be it resolved. Safety and fairness preclude the participation of trans athletes in high-level women's sport. I'm going to put two minutes on the clock for you, Linda. Please give us your opening remarks. Well, I would say that sport is divided into two basic categories, male and female. After that, it's subdivided according to age and in some combat sports we stratify by body weight. Interestingly, in the pair of sports, there are multiple divisions according to one's disabilities. for example, for track athletes with amputations, there are nine. These divisions are closed and

Starting point is 00:07:27 exclusive to maintain a level playing field for the individuals in that group. So then sport is ultimately about biology, about the performance of the human bodies. Males and females are in separate divisions because they have distinctly different bodies with different limitations. While the state of mind might affect the body's performance, it cannot transcend. and the natural limits of such things as lung capacity, reaction time, skeletal leverage, and heart size. The male advantage, admittedly, might be diminished slightly, but never completely extinguished by lowering testosterone concentrations in the blood. I mean, you cannot shorten bone length with a drug. Nevertheless, in 2015, the International Olympic Committee, IOC,

Starting point is 00:08:14 saw fit to officially allow a male athlete to compete in the female category by self-identifying as a woman for 12 months, no surgery required, and by keeping testosterone levels down below a given concentration. University sports in both Canada and the United States followed suit, and that's how a male runner from Franklin Pierce University, who ranked 390th amongst his male peers, was able to self-identify and be crowned 2020 women's national champion in the NCAA Division 2, 400 meter hurdles. Think about that. Like, you know, someone goes from 390th place to champion by changing a category. Surely that's not fair. And without fairness, sport is dead. I don't have to explain, you know, why it would be unfair to allow a 20-year-old man to compete in a race against an 11-year-old boy. And fairness isn't actually the only thing we're worried about in contact sports, putting a male body into. the women's category is actually dangerous. I would say that boxer Tamika Brents learned this the hard way

Starting point is 00:09:22 having her skull crushed when she got into the MMA boxing ring with trans-identified male Fallon Fox in 2014. So I guess in today's debate, I am arguing that a policy of inclusion in which athletes' feelings about their gender identity are given precedence over biological sex creates conditions that are both unfair and unsafe for women and girls. Ultimately, biology must remain the basis of categorization in sports. Thank you, Linda. Joanna, we're going to put the same on our clock, two minutes. Opportunity for you to open this debate.

Starting point is 00:09:57 Your arguments opposed to our motion, be it resolved, safety and fairness preclude the participation of trans athletes in high-level women's sports. The microphone is now yours. In 1976, Bernan Richards competed in the U.S. women's tennis tournament. She was the first transgender athlete to do so. At the time, many people said that there would be a flood of transgender athletes following her, destroying women's sports. It didn't happen. In 2004, the IOC first allowed transgender women to compete in the Olympics.

Starting point is 00:10:34 Again, many critics said that transgender women would soon be taken. taking over women's sports. Again, it didn't happen. The 2015 IOC rules came into effect in 2016, and once again, critics are saying that transgender women will soon be taking over women's sports. Once again, it's not going to happen. It's certainly true that even after hormone therapy, transgender women will retain advantages over cisgender or other women, particularly transgender women on average will be taller, bigger, and stronger than their cisgender counterparts. However, we allow advantages in sport.

Starting point is 00:11:18 For instance, we allow left-handed baseball players to play against right-handed baseball players, even though they have many advantages. We don't, however, allow overwhelming advantage in sport. We don't allow a heavyweight boxer to compete against a flyweight boxer. And the difference is that you can have meaningful consequences. competition between left-handed baseball players and right-handed baseball players. You can't have meaningful competition between heavyweight boxers and lightweight boxers. Hence, the important question is not, do transgender women maintain advantages, but can there be meaningful competition

Starting point is 00:11:57 between transgender women and cisgender women? And the way to look at it is not to cite one or two examples of trans women who have been successful. Instead, a far more meaningful way is to look at statistics. The best database to look at are the NCAA sports in the United States, where over 200,000 women compete every year in sports in the number of categories. Ten years ago, the NCAA instituted hormone-based rules. And if transgender women were equally represented in NCAA, sports, you'd see more than a thousand of them competing every year. Instead, there are only a handful. So 10 years after hormone rules were introduced, transgender women haven't taken over in CAA sports. They are still substantially underrepresented. And that is true across the board.

Starting point is 00:12:53 There are certainly safety issues because transgender women are on average taller, bigger, and stronger. But again, one or two examples doesn't prove. anything. One needs to look at statistics, and I'll be happy to do that in more detail later. Thank you. Thank you, Joanna. Terrific opening statements from both of you, setting this debate out nicely and raising a whole bunch of questions that I look forward to discussing with you in the moderated middle portion of our conversation. Before we get there, though, I want to give you both an opportunity to rebut one or two key points that you've heard in each other's opening statement. So, Linda, another two minutes on the clock for you.

Starting point is 00:13:34 Well, thank you, Joanna, for laying that out. I will say right up front that it gives me a certain amount of comfort to know that you do recognize that there's a distinction between sex and male advantage and gender identity because there are some that don't even recognize that. So I appreciate that. And I would just say that the example you used of Renee Richards, Renee was a much older male joining younger women. It was just a different time. It was very unique. And I would say at that time, probably the flood did not happen because it was not generally allowed in Olympic sports. I mean, you're saying since 2015, there still aren't a lot.

Starting point is 00:14:15 There are at least 66 prominent ones in the world right now. And, I mean, it's only starting to happen because we have only had a few years since that world change in 2015, which we can get into. And I would say the same thing holds true when you, the example of the NCAA and the 200,000 women, you should see a thousand trans people involved. I have two responses to that. First of all, the same one as the Olympic participation. I don't think there's been a lot of time yet to see the flood. And in particular, since there's a lot of young people also today who are transitioning that are still in junior high and in high school, I think the flood will be coming, the wave will be coming, but also

Starting point is 00:15:02 I would see that there are some, like in Canada, we're not even, some places they don't even, they're too afraid to ask. So I think there might be more than you think. Thanks, Linda. Joanna, same opportunity for you, a couple minutes on the clock, just to react to Linda's opening statement or what you've heard from her right now. Yes, the first thing that I would like to do is I would like to clarify a point here. I find it extraordinarily objectionable that Linda refers to transgender women. as males. And I don't know what the moderator can do about this. There are certainly other terms that can be used, but describing Renee Richards as male, describing Fallon Fox as male or C.C.

Starting point is 00:15:46 Telford, as male, is A, inaccurate and B, offensive. So in terms of C.C. Telfer, the hurdler, who won the NCAA Division II championship in 2019, not 2020, as Linda suggested. Again, there are hundreds of individual championships awarded every year in the NCAA. So we should be seeing transgender women winning a few NCAA championships every year. Again, in 10 years, we've seen one in total. in terms of Fallon Fox, when she says that she crushed the skull of Tamika Briggs, that's not actually true. There was a hairline fracture and a concussion that resulted. And this wasn't a result of one mighty blow, but rather repeated blows where the referee failed to stop the match. It was certainly an unfortunate match in which Brinks was overmatched, but the suggestion that her skull was crushed is, is

Starting point is 00:16:53 certainly an exaggeration. Thank you, Joanna. Well, now we get to have the part of the debate where I can join in and try to think through some of the issues that this fascinating discussion is raised for our listeners. And maybe to come to you first, Linda, I want to pick up on Joanna's point about the scale or the scope of the problem that we're actually discussing here. Joanna is painting a picture here that we are talking exceedingly small numbers of transgendered athletes who are currently competing. And on that basis, you know, why not favor inclusion over fairness in terms of balancing the priorities when the numbers are so very small? So I'd like to hear a bit more from you, Linda, why you think this is more than just a kind of proverbial tempest in a teapot. Well, given the fraction of small numbers that are joining so far, they have had an oversized impact, I would say.

Starting point is 00:17:58 Terry Miller and Andrea Yearwood, dominating the competition at the Girls' Track and Field Championships in Connecticut coming in first and second place, respectively. C.C. Telfer, bested top female collegiate athletes by more than a second in the 400-meter hurdles. The Franklin Pierce University Senior first competed on the men's track team. Years of hard work paid off for Rachel McKinnon as she became the first trans athlete to win a world championship in track cycling. Right away, they're champions.

Starting point is 00:18:29 You go down the list, and I'm sorry, I have to use the word male. I mean, man, I can, you know, there's the word man can be gender, but we have to have a word for sex. You want me to use, I don't know, how do I say it? Because how can we communicate if I can't speak about the sex-based part of that body. I mean, X, Y, male, do you want me to say, or X, Y, how do you want me to say that, Joanna?

Starting point is 00:18:56 Transgender women, and certainly that acknowledges that transgender women are assigned male at birth. Okay, so then can I say trans-identified male? Because that's what's happening. And a male athlete who is identifying, self-identifying, we acknowledge that we want to recognize in many cases in society. This person has every right to present as female or as woman. But we still have to have a language. But as long as we make it clear that when we say trans woman,

Starting point is 00:19:29 we're talking about a male athlete, a person who was born male and is of the male sex. We have to distinguish between that and the gender. Agreed. that transgender women are people who were identified as male at birth and identify as female. Okay. Thank you, Linda. These are important points of clarification. I know the audience appreciates it.

Starting point is 00:19:55 Joanna, let me come back to you and just prod a little bit on this question of fairness, which is really in our resolution today. Again, a simple one, be it resolved safety and fairness, preclude the participation of trans athletes in high-level. women's sport. How would you address, Joanna, a young woman in track, a biological female, who self-identifies as female, who spent all of her life training, dedicated to her sport, and at the culmination of years of work at the height of her college career, when, let's say, a national championship is possibly in her grasp, it is fair for her, to show up on a track and have to race against an individual that you acknowledge has the benefits of

Starting point is 00:20:51 testosterone, higher levels, significantly higher levels of testosterone, aiding that person's performance on the track on that day. How is that fair to that young woman? Well, first of all, if we're talking about NCAA sports, trans women have to be. on a year of hormone therapy. So generally speaking, the goal of hormone therapy is to bring testosterone levels into the female range. And in fact, if we look at studies on average transgender women on hormone therapy have no higher testosterone levels than cisgender or other women.

Starting point is 00:21:34 So the idea that they are competing against somebody with higher testosterone is simply. not true. Is it true that there will be legacy advantages to the transgender person? Yes, that is true. And those legacy advantages will vary from sport to sport. If we're talking about endurance athletes, one of the biggest changes that transgender people go through is that hemoglobin levels go from male to female levels within three months. And I am firmly convinced that in endurance sports, transgender women have no maintained advantage. So you didn't specify what event we were talking about on the track. And certainly I would say if we're talking on an endurance event,

Starting point is 00:22:24 there is no maintained advantage. And I think, again, if we want to talk about individuals, June Eastwood, who before she transitioned, had run times that would be the women's world record in both the 800, in the 1500 and running for the University of Montana, she failed to qualify for nationals as a trans woman competing in the women's events. Within the first month, I was definitely noticing that

Starting point is 00:22:54 I was kind of energyless at first, for sure. My running was a lot slower. I ran like 350 beforehand in the 1500, and I did a time trial last spring, about 12 months after that last year. after that last race that I had ran, and I ran 427. So if you had a number for it, it'd be like 37 seconds and I'm 1,500.

Starting point is 00:23:21 So the idea that there's this inherently unfair competition when trans women compete, it's simply not true. You know, there never is an entirely level playing field. And certainly, you know, there may not. need to in some sports be more restrictions than simply testosterone. But the idea that any woman steps on the track against a trans woman and she's going to be overmatched is simply not true. Hi there, Rudyard Griffiths, the moderator of the monk debates.

Starting point is 00:23:59 Look, this we know. Our society is becoming dangerously polarized. We don't listen to each other. We don't search out opposing views. Instead, too many of us live in tribes, convinced that we are right. and they are wrong. It's time to put a stop to polarization before it wrecks our democracy.

Starting point is 00:24:17 This is what the monk debate's charity is all about, ending polarization, searching for common ground. We do this by producing the world's only weekly debate radio program through our monk dialogue series and through main stage debates on the big topics of the day. Support civil and substantive public debate by becoming a monk member. As a member, you get access to our 10-plus-year online library of great debates in streaming high definition video, a free monk debate book of your choice,

Starting point is 00:24:45 ticketing privileges, and so much more. 30% off when you use the promotional code, Monk, 2021, at our website, monkdebates.com. Again, that promotional code, Monk, Munk, Munk, WN, K, 2021 at Moncdebates.com. Join now and help fight the polarization of our democracy. Now back to our program. So this is really interesting. And let's have you come back on that, Linda. Two key points here that I find fascinating.

Starting point is 00:25:22 One that through hormone therapy, we can reduce the level of testosterone in a transathlete, effectively leveling, as Joanna is possibly indicating in a whole series of sports and categories, the proverbial playing field. Can you react to that? Why isn't that a science-based measurable accommodation that is reasonable to allow transgendered people to participate in women's athletics and maintain fairness on the part of cisgendered females? Well, that's a really good question because actually, you know, you can get the testosterone levels down and bring down the hemoglobin. You can talk about hemoglobin, but interestingly enough, the VO2 Max doesn't really change that much. It reduces slightly, but that's because your oxygen consumption relies on all the other legacy components that Joanna Harper is talking about.

Starting point is 00:26:26 The legacy, let's talk about the legacy. If you are born with X, Y chromosome, then you have the advantage of puberty. there are 6,000 variables that are different between male and female bodies, even if they're transgender woman, they're male and they have a male body fundamentally. And so the heart, the blood volume, the stroke volume, the capillization at the muscles, the entire system is designed and has adapted to a higher level of oxygen consumption ability. So even if the hemoglobin level goes down, it's interesting that the VO2 max doesn't go down that much. Now, about June Eastwood, I mean, sure, in the running events, I think that's the one area where maybe, maybe, you could offset some of the advantage quite a bit. So let's say running speed males generally have a 10 to 15% advantage in running races.

Starting point is 00:27:27 But, you know, and with the hormone replacement therapy, they might even be able to decrease by as much as 10%, which makes it, seem like they're equilibrating to the female level, but you take so many other sports and so like things involving strength. Men have 60% more up to 60% more strength than women, but then with 12 different studies have shown some of the 12 that have been undertaken on transgender women, after a year or two of HRT, the maximum that is decreased is maybe 9%. So instead of a 60% advantage, you have 50, maybe minimally 40 or 50% advantage. That's still a huge advantage over the female body. And I guess further to something I didn't say earlier,

Starting point is 00:28:13 one person, one female athlete, losing a competition to somebody who really fundamentally doesn't belong in that category is one too many, in my opinion. So, Joanna, let's probe this a little bit deeper because you seem to indicate that you thought there were some areas where the playing field could be leveled. You thought possibly endurance sports. But I sensed you in it maybe that you were also acknowledging that there were other aspects of elite women's sport, let's say the 200-meter hurdles, where the playing field might not be so easily leveled. Are you open to some kind of triage that would say, you know, based on these kind of rigorous criteria, trans women can participate in these very specific sports, but we're going to leave this whole large range of other. sports and other disciplines within track where strength is much more

Starting point is 00:29:07 determinant to the outcome exclusively to cisgendered women. So first of all, Linda, I'm not sure where you got the data that VO2 does not go down very much. I certainly haven't seen any published data. I have unpublished data that shows that, in fact, VO2 Max does decrease dramatically. So does stroke volume. And there are a number of other cardiovascular parameters that are greatly effective. affected. Hopefully we will see that research published soon. So back to your question, you mentioned

Starting point is 00:29:40 a fictitious 200-meter hurdle race. In the 1930s, they did actually have a similar race, 220-yard hurdles, but that race hasn't been run in many years. If you want to talk about a hurdle race, either the 100 or the 400 hurdles would be the race. And certainly, It is potentially possible that there is more of a maintained advantage in the hurdles events. I would point out to the Colombian hurdler, Janella Zappa Mendoza. If you look at her sprint and hurdle times based on what she did previously, you know, she got more than 10% slower. Is that adequate?

Starting point is 00:30:30 I would say so. I think if we look at some other athletes, and I have done so that even in the sprint and hurdle races, we can have maybe not an entirely level playing field, but certainly one in which there is meaningful competition. So, Linda, to build on this, again, I really like how this debate has unfolded. You know, Joanna made an important point earlier that we allow left-handed baseball players to play against right-handed baseball players. I mean, look at the NBA. We allow seven-foot-tall athletes to play against five-foot-six-tall athletes. So in all kinds of different sports, there's a wide range of physiology that is on the court or in the stadium. So why can't we accommodate trans women in that context that any one of a number of sports,

Starting point is 00:31:25 which we all acknowledge are highly competitive and highly enjoyable to watch, and the athletes playing them seem to be motivated by the competition and feel that it's fair, yet there's a big range of human shapes and forms in any one of those disciplines. Why is that not an analogy or a fact point to support the inclusion of trans athletes in high-level women's sport? Well, let's talk about that. I don't know if the audience knows this, but the major professional men's sports, the NBA, basketball, NFL, football, ball and HL hockey, all of those sports are absolutely completely open. How many women do you see in those sports? I mean, if it's just a matter of minor variations and body abilities,

Starting point is 00:32:11 why aren't we seeing way more competitive, even 10% of NFL players being women on the field? Seriously, there's massive, vast differences. And the reason, it's not a matter of left-handed a right-handed, it's a matter of the fact of fundamentally different categorical shapes. Literally, it's like I often use the analogy that, just to explain this, just in terms of structure, structural difference. You have the Formula One race car, you have a NASCAR. Those are categorical differences. You have different chassis. All the things about that car are just fundamentally different. It wouldn't make any sense to go to a NASCAR race and then say, oh, by the way, today we have a Formula One car in here. We're talking categorical differences.

Starting point is 00:32:57 Okay. That's a helpful analogy back at me, so to speak. So I appreciate that, Linda. Joanna, let's, before we go to closing statements, I want to talk just finally about these changes that have recently been announced regarding Title IX in the United States, that the Biden administration, through executive order, is allowing now effectively transathletes to participate in college level and other kind of educational sport environments. The president signed an order protecting LGBTQ people from discrimination, which could threaten federal funding from schools that do not allow trans women the right to compete in women's sports.

Starting point is 00:33:41 So it's got a lot of attention on social media with the hashtag Biden erased women. Some people are saying that, you know, be very different. for coaches or institutions going forward now to not include trans athletes in, say, a college running team or a college swim team. I think our audience would like to hear a little bit more from you regarding Title IX because many women look at Title IX as just a terrific story around public policy and how the introduction of Title IX decades ago really led to this explosion of female athletics and women entering athletics. Give us your thoughts of why, Joanna, don't think these changes to Title IX are a step back for cisgendered women in athletics

Starting point is 00:34:28 in colleges across the U.S. Well, first of all, I'm a big fan of Title IX, and there's nothing in Joe Biden's executive order that in any way affected Title IX. All he said was that transgender athletes had to be allowed to compete. He didn't say anything about under which conditions. So there's nothing in that executive order that in any way threatens the current NCAA rules regarding transgender women. And look, I absolutely agree that women's sports is precious. It's wonderful. And I don't think that at the collegiate level, we should be allowing transgender women to compete without going on hormone therapy. Now, Biden's rule, as I said, it said nothing one way or another about this. And this is certainly a coming battle in the

Starting point is 00:35:28 United States and other places as to what precisely will happen in the future. But Biden's order, as it stands, did not in any way threaten Title IX. Thank you, John. I want to get Linda, your views on this because you, as I understand it, were a beneficiary of Title IX, and this is personal for you. Yeah, it's really personal for me. Title IX was a game changer for so many women and girls. I personally, in 1980, got a full scholarship to University of Maryland, became team captain, got to compete with Jackie Joyner Kersey and the heptathlon. I was all American. I mean, it was one of those moments in your life that just changes the whole course of what you're doing. And I mean, it's the reason I'm even a coach now. It's the very reason I can even be on this discussion now. It's just given me so many advantages in my life. And I would really want to fight quite hard. And I hope the women in the United States can fight quite hard to maintain and preserve a fair Title IX that's fair to the female athlete. and I believe perhaps we can somehow, if we have open dialogue, we can come to some, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:44 even at the Olympic level, IOC level, we can come to some sort of a, you know, accommodation, a reconciliation, how do we balance the rights? But I hope Joanna is right because Biden's executive order scared everybody. And like because gender identity, if you just self-identify, but I mean, if you don't address the underlying biological imbalances and advantages that the male-born athlete has, I think that a lot of girls are going to stop competing. Thank you, Linda. Let's go to closing statements.

Starting point is 00:37:19 This has been a terrific debate. Joanna, I'm going to put a couple minutes on the clock. Your opportunity to restate some of your key arguments, underline some of the points that Linda's made that you'd like our audience to think about as we wrap up this debate. Well, the first thing I'd like to say is that I'd like to say is that I'm a lot. I actually agree with Linda that gender identity should not be the basis on which we separate athletes into male and female categories. It is my belief that we should do so using a biomarker or biomarkers that are important to differentiate male athletes from female athletes and are

Starting point is 00:37:58 mostly dimorphic. And that's why I'm actually a proponent of using testosterone own levels to separate elite level male and female athletes. And I think it's something that the NCAA has done successfully for 10 years. World Athletics has done successfully for also for 10 years. And other sports have adopted this too. And I think that this is a reasonable compromise to allow transgender women to compete in high level sports while maintaining meaningful competition for all women within the category. There may be some sports where there need to be more restrictions, but that would be dependent upon data. I would also say that at recreational levels, that we should just be allowing people to play. And I would certainly hope that when we're talking

Starting point is 00:38:59 about casual sports, where most athletes actually compete, that we can just let people play. But I agree with Linda that biology is important, and I think that if we make reasonable compromises here, we can both protect women's sports and allow transgender women to compete. Thank you, Joanna. Linda, we're going to give you the last word in this debate, a couple minutes on the clock for your summation. I appreciate the fact that Joanna agrees with me on the differences of between male and female, the sexual dimorphism. I don't agree that the T suppression is working because as World Rugby's recent studies and

Starting point is 00:39:42 consultations have shown, T-suppression, testosterone suppression in no way, well, I wouldn't say no way, but neither eliminates the advantage nor the risks to female athletes. In fact, they determined that the risk of female athlete goes up 20 to 30 percent for head and neck injuries if a body is in on the pitch with the women. And speaking of world rugby, I would just say, I want to say, I want to point out this that after their 2020 decision to ban trans women from the elite women's rugby, restricting it to female athletes, the CEO of the Canadian Center for Ethics and Sport angrily wrote the following. I think it is time for the sport community to re-examine its approach to sport categorization. When we ignore what we know about the broad spectrum of human experience in

Starting point is 00:40:31 the area of biological sex and gender identity, we risk violating the human rights of people who do not fit, and I'm going to quote here, the obsolete definition of biological female. Imagine that. Just imagine that. The leader tasked with ensuring that sports in Canada remain fair and ethical now seeks to abandon the definition of female that we have used for the past century. I'm not sure that's helpful. Actually, it's a betrayal. During that century, female athletes struggled mightily for the right to compete in the Olympic sports, as Joanna has pointed out too. And a host of women like myself have benefited immeasurably. So listen, we want trans-identified athletes to participate and become welcome in sports. And restricting the female category does not necessarily mean they cannot compete. I believe we can

Starting point is 00:41:18 find a solution to the balancing of the rights. But in order to achieve it, I think we really do have to have conversations like this and do it without intimidation. I think sport entities, like the IOC and the CCES need to quit the habit of formulating policy by stealth, surprising associations that deliver sports at ground level with nonsensical rules that are impossible to implement. And I would say for the preservation of women's sports, I really strongly recommend the following, that the IOC and CCES immediately suspend their absurd and unfair transgender guidelines, and that, two, these entities and their national partners launch a consultative process that is transparent and inclusive of female stakeholders.

Starting point is 00:42:05 Thank you, Linda. And let me just reiterate that, that, you know, this is a really difficult, charged topic to discuss. Our producers struggled mightily over a number of months to find two people with opposing points of view on this topic to come on this program to have this debate. in discussion. So Linda, Joanna, you know, thank you for your willingness to engage with each other, to listen to each other's arguments. This is what civil and substantive debate is all about. This is the type of public square that we at the Monk debates are trying to encourage a place where ideas can be respectfully considered, analyzed. That only makes the broader public

Starting point is 00:42:50 conversation more meaningful and more nuanced. So thank you both for your time today. Thank you very much. Thank you, Joanna. Thank you. Wow. Wasn't that a great debate? Really kudos to Linda Blade and Joanna Harper for coming on the program. This is just a controversial topic, a really tough debate to be having about the ability of trans athletes to participate in high-level women's sports, the safety and fairness implications of their participation. Just a big thank you again to Linda and Joanna for a willingness to listen to each other's arguments, to engage with each other's ideas, and to educate and inform all of us about this important issue. We'd love to hear your feedback on today's debate. Send us an email to podcast at monkdebates.com. Let us know about what you think about Linda and or

Starting point is 00:43:49 Joanna's arguments. Which of them moved you? Did this debate? change your mind. We'll be sharing listener feedback on our debates in future episodes. So again, send us an email with your suggestions, comments, and reactions today's debate, podcast at monkdebates.com. While the monk debates is that special place for civil and substantive debate and discussion on the big issues of the day, we've got all that for you and more on our website, monkdebates.com. dozens of podcast debates, mainstage debates, monk dialogues, all there for your watching, listening, and viewing pleasure. Again, that website, monkdebates.com. You'll also find detailed show notes on today's debate. Thank you for being part of our community and supporting our

Starting point is 00:44:41 mission to restore the art of public debate, one conversation at a time. I'm your host and moderator, Rudyard Griffiths. The Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by the Monk Foundation. Rudyard Griffiths and Christina Campbell are the producers. Api Rahaja is the associate producer. The Monk Debate podcast is mixed by Kieran Lynch. The president of Antica Productions is Stuart Cox. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it resolved: Safety and fairness preclude participation of trans athletes in high level women's sport

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