The Munk Debates Podcast - Be it Resolved, the Democrats need a new nominee

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

“An elderly man with a poor memory”. That is how a special counsel report described Joe Biden, president of the United States. Public appearances of the President looking confused and forgetting important dates and names seem to support this finding. Some Democrats believe Biden’s cognitive decline is a major liability that can no longer be ignored. With so much at stake in the 2024 election, and polls that are favouring Trump to win, it’s time for Biden to step aside for a candidate that can take on Trump with the energy and mental vigour such a contest requires. Biden’s supporters argue that his record as one of America’s most effective presidents renders his age irrelevant. Unlike previous candidates, Biden has proven that he can form a winning coalition. The risk of replacing him this close to the election would all but guarantee his defeat and the ruin of American democracy at the hands of a President Trump. Arguing in favour of the resolution is Jeff Weaver. He was a senior advisor on Bernie Sanders’ 2020 presidential campaign and he is currently serving as an advisor to Representative Dean Phillip’s campaign to be the Democratic nominee. Arguing against the resolution is Jim Kessler. He’s the Executive Vice President of Policy at Third Way, a Washington DC Democratic think tank. SOURCES:  MSNBC, NBC News   The host of the Munk Debates is Rudyard Griffiths  Tweet your comments about this episode to @munkdebate or comment on our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/munkdebates/ To sign up for a weekly email reminder for this podcast, send an email to [e-mail].   To support civil and substantive debate on the big questions of the day, consider becoming a Munk Member at https://munkdebates.com/membership Members receive access to our 50+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, newsletter and ticketing privileges at our live events. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue - https://munkdebates.com/ Senior Producer: Ricki Gurwitz Editor: Kieran Lynch  Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You don't help the poor by making everybody poorer. The media has a frame, and the frame is Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians are the oppressed. I shouldn't be forced to acknowledge my privilege unless I desire for that to be part of my interaction with somebody else. What I know to be true and what all of my fellow Gen Z know to be true is that this is the most talented generation yet. With respect to every indicia of disadvantage, there is still a racial hierarch. And though I am, of course, an Anglo. Certainly not a Fri-Saxon. Welcome to the Monk Debates on every episode.

We provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issue of the day. We're here to arm you, our valued listener, enough information to make up your own mind. Today's debate, be it resolved, the Democrats need a new nominee. There is some movement, and I don't want to, I don't want to,

I don't want to choose my own. words. There's some movement. There's been a response from the, there's been a response from the opposition. Hello, I'm your moderator, Rudyard Griffiths. An elderly man with a poor memory. That is how a special counsel report described Joe Biden, the president of the United States, public appearances of the president, have him looking at times confused and forgetting important names and dates. Some Democrats believe Biden is in actual cognitive decline, and this is a major liability that can no longer be ignored. With so much at stake in the 2024 election and polls showing that Trump could be favored to win if the vote was cast this winter and spring, it is now time for Biden to formally step aside.

and for a new candidate to take up the reins of the Democratic Party and challenge Trump come this November. Here is Representative Dean Phillips, who right now is vying with Joe Biden to be the Democratic Party nominee. All I'm asking is that we not lose to Donald Trump. That's all I'm asking. And my party right now is the facilitator of bringing Donald Trump back to the White House. That's my contention.

And frankly, most Democrats know that, other than the ones that are protecting their president. own inference. Biden's supporters, however, believe that his age is an asset. Here is First Lady, Jill Biden. He's wise. He has wisdom. He has experience. He knows every leader on the world's stage. He's lived history. He knows history. He's thoughtful in his decisions. He is the right man, the right person for the job at this moment in history. Unlike previous candidates, Biden has proven that he can form a winning political coalition. The risks of replacing him this close to an election could all but guarantee the defeat of the Democratic Party come November

and the potential for a democratic crisis in America with the election once again of Donald J. Trump. On this installment of the Monk Debates podcast, we're going deep into these issues by debating the motion, be a resolve. The Democrats need a new nominee. Arguing in favor of the resolution is Jeff Weaver. He was a senior political advisor on the Bernie Sanders presidential campaign in 2020, and he's currently serving as an advisor to Representative Dean Phillips in his campaign to be the Democratic nominee. Arguing against the motion is Jim Kessler. He's the executive vice president of policy at Third Way and influential Washington, D.C., Democratic think tank. Jeff, Jim, welcome to the Monk debates.

I'm glad to be here. Great to be here, too. We could not be having a more topical debate today. Our motion be it resolved. The Democrats need a new nominee. Jeff Weaver, you're arguing in favor of the resolution. Let's have your opening statement. Thanks a lot.

And thank you, Jim, for joining me on this. We've been on the show before, and it's always been informative. We're at a very tipping point in our country. And I think that the goal in this election has to be very focused. And that goal is to beat Donald Trump and to prevent the return of a very dangerous force to the government, anti-democratic. Unfortunately, as we've seen in recent polling, voters are not happy with the Democratic Party's choice. Joe Biden. Many people believe that he is too old.

I don't think he's too old. I think that's a surrogate for people believing that he's not up to the task. And there's been a lot of evidence, and we can go into that over the course of this debate. that seems to reinforce that for people. His polling numbers are historically low for an incumbent president who hopes to win. We can certainly talk about how he compares to others, Barack Obama, for instance, Donald Trump himself, who was lost re-election, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and others. So we're in a very dangerous time right now, and the Democratic Party has chosen to rally

around the establishment, to rally around Joe Biden. I'm going to concede for purposes of this debate, unless Jim wants to open the door on this, that Joe Biden has had, by most measures, a very successful presidency in terms of passing legislation and moving his agenda forward. He has, in many cases, worked across, not only across the aisle, but across the spectrum of the Democratic Party from the left to the center. So he's been very successful in that. This is really about the future, not about the past. And we cannot hitch our wagon to a horse that is not going to make it on election day. Already you're seeing down-ballot candidates are very nervous.

We saw in New Hampshire just recently a state representative of switching parties for fear that, you know, Biden is going to drag down-ballot candidates. So for all of these reasons, I think the Democratic Party, it has the opportunity now to look for another horse. There are many out there. The president himself has said that there are many Democrats who are qualified and could beat Donald Trump. And I think we should take him up on that. Thank you, Jeff Weaver, for that opening statement. Well, now an opportunity for Jim Kessler to. provide the opposite view arguing against our motion, be it resolved, that Democrats need a new

nominee. Jim, let's have your opening remarks. So I think the age issue is a legitimate issue. It's clearly top of mind if you ask voters and when you poll voters as well. And I think Republicans have done a tremendous job of the last three years making the age issue something that they wanted to be central. I spend a lot of time going on conservative media like Fox News. That is a meme that that they push over and over and over again, and I think it's sunk in. On the other hand, and I think this is where Jeff and I all agree, is he certainly isn't too old to actually be president and be a good president because he's been, I think, the most successful president of my lifetime. And, you know, he brought the economy back to life

after COVID, and he stripped the bark off Vladimir Putin before he was able to invade Ukraine and, you know, rallied an international force out there that was, I thought, very creative way of taking on Putin and Ukraine and rallying NATO, and Ukraine is still fighting because of that. And then, as Jeff mentioned, like, he's passed a bunch of bipartisan laws, like, far exceeded what you would expect any president to do, let alone any president in this particular polarized environment. The question is, is it in spite of his age or because of it? And, you know, I would argue that one of the things that's made Joe Biden an excellent president is that his age has given him,

you know, experience, wisdom, empathy, deep relationships, patience as well. Look, the other thing I just say is like, it's up to voters. And they do have another choice. Jeff Weaver is working for one of the candidates, the only candidate really in the Democratic primary, running against Joe Biden. Voters have had a chance, at least in a handful of states, to make their views known. They've really come out very, very strongly for Joe Biden on it. It's the voter's choice, too. Thank you, Jim. You're listening to our debate today, be it resolved.

The Democrats need a new nominee. Okay, an opportunity now for rebuttals. let's get to you reacting to each other's opening statements. Jeff, you're up first. Yeah, I mean, there's a poll out, you know, just out that overwhelmingly shows that voters think that he's too old. And let me say on the age thing. I don't think it's a question of chronological age. I mean, I work for, as folks on this show know, with Senator Bernie Sanders for years and years, ran his campaign in 16 when he would have been the oldest person ever elected to be the president of the United States.

So it's not a question of age. It's a question of ability, and all of us age differently. You know, we've been told by the establishment that we need to stick with Joe Biden, that the polls are bad, but they will be getting better. We heard that two years ago, two years a long time, then we heard 18 months is a long time, then we heard a year's a long time. But we have not yet seen the polls getting better. In fact, the polls are getting worse on issues that are including foreign policy and immigration.

You know, Biden's numbers are down, and they're down the most with Democrats. So in many ways, the coalition that we can certainly talk about the Middle East and its impact on this, but the coalition that Joe Biden put together in 2020 to win, a coalition that stretched from sort of John Kasich Republicans to sort of Bernie Sanders progressives, that coalition is fracturing and, you know, just do perhaps some things out of the president's control. But that, you know, that's not going to matter in November when Donald Trump gets, you know, elected. Just a comparison, you know, Joe Biden's favorable and the most recent poll are at 38%. You know, Barack Obama at this point was close to 50%. Bill Clinton was over 50%. George W. Bush was over

50%. These are all people who got reelected. George Herbert Walker Bush was under 40%. As with Donald Trump and both of them were defeated in their reelection efforts. So the signs are very, very bad. Biden's favorables are underwater by 16 points. Shockingly, Trump's favorable are only underwater by eight points. And we do have, you know, whether it's Dean Phillips or it's Governor Newsom or Governor Pritzker or Congressman Rokana or Governor Whitmer, you know, there are plenty of very talented Democrats out there who could pick up the flag and carry us to victory not only in the White House, but in the House as well and hopefully stem some of the losses in the U.S. Senate. Thank you, Jeff for that rebuttal. Okay, Jim, similar opportunity for you. You can react to Jeff's words off the top or what you've just heard. now? Well, look, I was sure Biden was doing better than the polls. That would make me feel a little bit better. But I also worked for a presidential candidate who in July of the election year was up 17 points and ended up losing by 10. So I just, I've been in this business, as has Jeff, long enough to know,

like, things change quite a bit. I don't think the Biden team has handled the age issue well. I think they have reacted to it instead of being run towards it. And Joe Biden has had an incredibly successful presidency. I mean, incredibly successful. It's not by accident. You don't stumble into doing this. You don't miss your magoo your way into passing, you know, five really difficult bipartisan bills,

by putting together a coalition to take on Putin, to even surprise Putin by releasing intelligence that said he's going to invade before he did so that, you know, that Ukraine would have a chance. He's had successes all over the place. And it's an example of someone who is playing at or near the top of their game. Now, I get it. I see that voters are, you know, they have doubts about Joe Biden, some of it age, some of it having to do with what's going on on in the border, some other issues, inflation as well. But he's had a presidency that says, this is a guy

who's playing an A game, not a C game or a D game. And again, you know, they have another choice. Dean Phillips is out there. He is a reasonable, respectable, you know, fair alternative for somebody to look at, he hasn't caught fire. Thank you, Jim. You're listening to our debate today, be it resolved that the Democrats need a new nominee. I'm going to join the conversation now. I'll come to you first, Jeff. I think our listeners would love to kind of hear a bit from you of actually how a change

in the leadership of the party could occur, given the reality that the clock is ticking. We are now well into 2024. Is this even possible for the Democrats to switch out Joe Biden and to choose a new nominee? Oh, it's absolutely possible. You know, Joe Biden stepped aside tomorrow. You know, there are still primary ballots that other candidates, I'm sure, would get on rather quickly. And we would have something, I hate to raise respecter of 1968, but something procedurally akin to 1968, where, you know, candidates, late candidates getting in, including Bobby Kennedy, you know, entered some late primaries in order to show support among the electorate.

Ultimately, the party chose somebody who hadn't won a single primary, but, you know, I don't think that necessarily has to play out here. So there is procedurally a way to do it if that's what the party wanted to do. Oh, boy. Well, Jim. And ironically, it's in Chicago again this year. Absolutely. So, Jim, unpack that, oh, boy. Let's just, let's play.

Let's play with some counterfactual history, maybe counterfactual future. You have a sense that this could be a huge mistake. Chicago 68 might be a picnic. I mean, this is very hard to do, okay? Just realize that, you know, there's a couple ways that Joe Biden could battle out of the race. Something could, you know, happen to him and he bows out of the race or, you know, whatever. The thing is, is that delegates are going to be elected. So it's really too late for people to get on the ballot almost everywhere.

If Dean Phillips is on the ballot in, I think Jeff would know, but at least like 45 states. But, you know, some states it's easy to get on the ballots. In other states, it is not. And we've got Super Tuesday that's coming very, very soon. So, you know, hundreds and then thousands of delegates are going to be chosen. And unless lightning strikes in a bottle, the majority, more than the majority, like maybe almost every single one of those delegates is going to be a Joe Biden delegate. Okay. Fast forward, he decides to get out of the race for whatever reason.

And it's Chicago and it's August. Well, there's like, I don't know how many delegates. Let's say there's 4,200 of them. 500 are super delegates, like people like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. But the other 3,700 are people that look a lot. like you and me, all right? We're just regular people in places all over the country. And then you would get this bizarre attempt because they're the only voters out there of what are you doing to try and woo these people and build some sort of coalition. And I think if you looked at C-SPAN when they were

trying to elect a speaker and eventually got to Mike Johnson, like I think it's that times of thousand and it would be must viewing but it would look absolutely crazy. Jeff, you got a rebuttal to that? Yeah, look, you know, we point to 1968, but we forget, you know, that FDR was elected in a brokered convention and Abraham Lincoln was elected in a broker convention. So, you know, we used to do this. This is exactly how the way we used to do it. Now, I think the way we do it now is superior. But we are in a very difficult situation here, a very, in some ways, unique situation. where we have such a dangerous threat to the country, and we have a candidate who, while admittedly having had legislative success, is down substantially in the polls and in favorability.

And there's a strong likelihood that he will lose. I mean, Jim knows that that's true as well. Biden is not a shoe with him. Biden, especially in my imagination. I say that as somebody who worked on a super PAC to help elect Joe Biden. So, you know, I don't want to see Joe Biden fail, but I'm afraid that he will fail. So again, 1968 is one example, but there are plenty of examples of, quote, unquote, brokered conventions where, you know, I mean, John F. Kennedy in some ways was elected in brokerate convention. So, you know, they don't have to look like 1968 for sure. Jim, let me come to you and just pick up on something that Jeff just said there, the risks involved, right? I mean, we're talking about the potential for a second Trump presidency and everything that would come with that. So why isn't this time different in a.

way why if we really wanted to be honest with ourselves and as much as we mean like like joe biden we might as you say be impressed with his legislative record his you know sagacity and yeah his nuances as an international statesman there's a bigger thing at play here the future of american democracy and that's the reason why the democrats need a new nominee too much is at risk too much is at play. Give us your answer. Yeah, and I think, you know, Jeff and I were talking before the, you know, the mics went on and we were just saying we both share this view that we want to make sure that, you know, that Donald Trump does not return to the White House. That is the absolute last thing that can happen. First of all, there's no such thing as like the Democratic

Party. Like, why don't like Democrats get together and decide this and that? I mean, Jeff's in the Democratic Party. I'm in the Democratic Party. I'm in the Democratic Party. I'm in the Democratic Party. I'm in the Democratic Party. I don't think we've ever been in the same room together. You know, like, there just, there isn't that room. It's an adage from the past, you know, to make a- - They don't invite me to the Christmas party. They don't invite me to the Christmas party at Third Way. Yeah. Then, well, you know, we will this year, okay? But so, like, it's a pretend thing. So we have elections. Presidents, when they're successful, they run for re-election. And that's, that's the normal thing that's being done here. I would also

add that if Joe Biden didn't run, I'm not so sure that we would nominate a Democrat who has a better chance against Donald Trump. Like that's an unknowable thing as well. And I just want to add, bring one other thing into this conversation. If this is a one-on-one race between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, I do believe that Joe Biden wins that race. I think that when Joe Biden spends his $1 billion that they're going to raise and Donald Trump spends his $1 billion, that our story, the Biden story is a lot better and the Trump story is people need to be reminded of it. The most dangerous thing in this race is not Joe Biden. It's third party candidates in there because there is a coalition of voters out there that I would just say are the coalition of the

reasonable. And they might have views that are very, very different than my views on policies or Jeff's views on policies, but they're the same on decency, humanity, and the big one, democracy. But if that coalition gets splintered, then Donald Trump has a chance. I do not think Donald Trump has a chance to win more than 47% of the vote in any circumstance. But with several candidates in the race, as third party candidates, 47 could be enough. So that's what worries me more than Joe Biden's age. Jeff, let's hear you on this point of just the Trump risk, because there are others who would agree with Jim that, yes, maybe the polls show that possibility right now, but there's still a lot of time between now and November. The American economy seems strong.

Job creation remains steady. You know, isn't the economy ultimately what really gets an incumbent president. reelected and right now it's looking pretty good in America. Well, look, I mean, I don't want to get to campaign talking points, but look, you know, the macro numbers in the U.S. are very good. But, you know, there has been a steady decline in the standard of living of middle class people in the United States and working class people that's gone on for 40 years. So it's not necessarily Joe Biden's fault, but Joe Biden's one of the people presiding over that decline. I mean, it's just a, that's just a fact. I mean,

that's not really sort of open to political debate. And, you know, over time, what has happened And this is why Trump is popular. Jim and I have had this conversation before. And I think in our last debate, you know, people have soured on democracy because it has not provided them with the standard of living that their parents had or their grandparents had or that they think that their children should have. And so people begin to sour on democracy and they start looking at demagogic figures like Donald Trump who, you know, are saying, I'll make your life better, but the prices you know, for democracy overboard. And, you know, democracy is not, in the end, probably loses that fight. So, you know, we've got to deal with these other structural issues. But the problem here is that Joe Biden, for a host of reasons, well, and, you know, Jim mentions

the coalition he put together, the coalition of the reasonable. You know, there are a bunch of people who are very upset with Joe Biden on a number of substantive issues, including the Middle East in particular. And so his coalition is fracturing. And it's fracturing in some places that are very important for his reelection. As Jim mentions, the 47% number, but we don't, you know, we don't elect presidents by popular vote in the United States. Otherwise, we'd have President Hillary Clinton and Al Gore. You know, we have this as an elaborate electoral college system where you basically are electing a number of delegates from each state,

as winner take all, and whoever gets the majority wins. And so he's, you know, doing badly in a number of, a number of these important states like Michigan, which is, you know, sort of crumbling beneath his feet. And, you know, so his numbers, his poll, you know, a Democrat has to win by three or four percentage points to have a chance of actually winning the electoral college because of the way Democrats overperform in giant states like California and New York. So it's a very dire situation. And, you know, I know, I appreciate that Jim is not just sort of blowing it off. He does recognize it. I do think that Joe Biden might be, in fact, the worst choice. There are, again, plenty of talented Democrats out there who could pick up. the banner. And, you know, we have vice president who's very capable. We have, like I said, a number of governors, governors I didn't mention, Governor Shapiro, Governor Moore. You know, they're just a tremendous amount of talent in our party. And that talent should be allowed to sort

of pick up the banner and win, I think. You know, I think against somebody who's not Joe Biden, I think Trump gets trounced to use a technical term. If you're enjoying the Monk Debates podcast, come over to our website at triple W monkdebates.com. That's MUNK Debates with an S.com and check out our free monk membership. As a complimentary monk member, you get all kinds of great perks and benefits, access to our weekly email, summarizing our best debates, dance ticketing privileges at our main stage debates, special news information, and offers all courtesy of the monk debates. You can grab your complimentary Monk membership again right now at

Triplew monk debates.com. Simply look to the top navigation on the website and follow the links. Thanks in advance for joining our community. Jim, help our listeners understand

the Kamala Harris question. If there was a change in the nominee, i.e. Joe Biden left the race. What does the party do with Kamala Harris? She's someone who represents a constituency, prominently obviously black female voters who were instrumental to Joe Biden's successful win of your party's nomination and arguably a voting cohort that are essential to the party come this November. Jim, how important is Camel Harris?

How important should she be to all of our thinking about these types of questions? The person, Joe Biden didn't run. Kamala Harris would be the nominee, hands down. That's my view. And, you know, one of the ways that you win the Democratic nomination, really the principal way is you dominate with African-American voters, particularly in the delegate rich South. And that's how Joe Biden won the nomination. That's how Hillary Clinton won the nomination. both against Bernie Sanders, who for whatever reason, just had a hard time attracting African-American

support. So you look at the Democratic coalition and particularly primary voters in a lot of the delegate states, and the African-American constituency will need to feel that they've been heard. And they feel that they nominated Joe Biden in 2020, and they feel they elected Joe Biden in 2020. And, you know, he called Barack Obama boss, that mattered to African-American voters. And the idea that, okay, it'll be a Gretchen Whitmer or a, you know, Josh Shapiro or Gavin Newsom, like, that would fracture the party as well. I agree with what Jeff is saying, that there's places where the party is fractured right now and you look at Michigan in particular the conflict in Israel and in Gaza that's hurting Joe Biden that's hurting Joe Biden far more than age I don't know

which Democrat would get out from under that one either but you know that's that's the problem there Jeff let me come to you on the on the Kamala Harris question because if we accept Jim's reasoning here again it may not be optimal may not be the world as we wish it, but it's the world as it is. She is the vice president. You can't skip over her. Arguably, her polling numbers in a general matchup versus Trump are worse than Joe Biden's. Well, that's in some polls. One point of clarification, Jim mentioned to Senator Sanders. I happen to be a leading apologist for Senator Sanders. So I have to protect his legacy. You know, he won black voters under 40 in 2016, as he did in every other demographic. He did have

trouble with older voters. That was a cross-racial problem, except in Vermont and New Hampshire. And anyway, I'll just leave at that. So the record is stated. Look, you know, Kamala Harris certainly has a strong claim to be the sort of heir if Joe Biden is not in the race. But look, I do think in an open environment, you know, she will have to compete if, if Joe Biden, whether he wins or loses this time, you know, in 2028, Kamala Harris is not the guaranteed nominee. There's, there'll be a contest. And, you know, people will run. And then, you know, there are a bunch of qualified, talented people of which she is won. And, you know, the Democratic Party is a coalition party.

It's strange to talk to Canadians about how it's a party because it doesn't really function like a parliamentary party. But it is a coalition. And, you know, you're seeing, you know, African-American women are key, important, loyal part of that constituency, you know, that coalition. You know, but there's also young people in that coalition. There's also blue-collar people, unfortunately fewer and fewer. but blue-collar people in that coalition, there's Latinos on that coalition, unfortunately fewer and fewer.

But so, you know, putting in the other and holding together this coalition, you know, we have to weigh among the candidates. And that, you know, that means Kamala Harris will certainly be one of the leading contenders. I have no doubt about that. But does that mean she's guaranteed to be the leader? I don't think that's necessarily true. Okay, so we've moved towards closing statements. Jim, let me come to you and ask, what would your advice be right now to, Joe Biden's campaign. What do you think they should be doing to increase the odds that the pressure

doesn't continue to build for a different nominee? What can he do? Because that pressure is real. It's more than just Jeff Weaver. It's all through our media. It's all through American kind of political debate right now. Are there some practical things that he can do to turn this around? I think there are practical things he can do. And I've felt for a lot of long time that they've been too reactive on this issue and they felt they could joke it away or, you know, show that he's being active or put him on a bicycle or, you know, that sort of thing. And I just think he needs to address it head on, one-on-on-on-one interviews, you know, major news broadcaster in which he's addressing at fourth rate and saying, I know that people are concerned.

It's a legitimate concern for people to have. And there are certain things I cannot do anymore because I'm 81 years old and I have pain in my ankles and I have a lifetime speech impediment that gets a little bit worse. But there's also other things that it's given me and it's given me wisdom and empathy and patience and seeing the broad picture and deep relationships. And with some people when they age, they become bitter and angry and shut off the world. And with other people, you know, it brings up the best of them. And I hope that what voters see is it brings up the best of me. But I think you have to, I think you have to address it the way you would address any other major issue out there, which is head on. Okay, good advice. Jeff, what's your advice

to your candidate to other people that would like to see a change in nominee? How is this done in a way that doesn't fracture the party that doesn't damage, risk damaging, in fact, Democrats' election prospects come November. Look, I'm not arguing that Joe Biden is too old. What I'm arguing is that the people perceive he's too old. And, you know, it's not a false perception. I was just watching a video from 2016 where he was being interviewed by CNN then. And you look at the Joe Biden in that interview compared to the Joe Biden who appeared

at that podium the other night and that hastily called the other press. conference to deal with the special counsel's report, it's a totally different human being. And that's eight years. And what people are thinking and saying, because, you know, I've been actually out, you know, in the world talking to real people, even people who support Joe Biden, you don't have real doubts. It's not just today. The presidency is four years long. And if folks don't think that the Republicans aren't going to suggest that Joe Biden is just trying to hand the presidency over to Kamala Harris without her actually being elected, they're fooling themselves because the Republicans, of course, are going to make that argument.

It's going to resonate with some people that, you know, with some kind of Democratic Party shenanigans to sort of perpetuate the Biden team, even though Biden's not there. So, you know, I think we just have to listen to voters say, you know, I'm a big believer in democracy as is Jim. And that means listening to voters, the voters have been consistently saying the same thing for, you know, a couple of years now. And it's like, again, it's getting worse. They don't want Joe Biden versus Trump this time. We have an opportunity to provide them with an alternative who can excite them, who can move the country. forward. Joe Biden did a great service by defeating Trump. And, you know, he should take the applause and, you know, pass the baton to someone else. Thank you, Jeff. You're listening to our debate today.

Be it resolved that Democrats need a new nominee. Let's go to closing statements. Jim Kessler, you're up first. Great. And thank you so much for having me on. And it's always great to be on with Jeff, who we've been on opposite sides of the Democratic Party for many, many years, but have always been able to have great conversations. Look, I agree with. with what Jeff just said, voters are always right. And we've had a couple of instances where Joe Biden is running in a competitive primary against Dean Phillips. And I really respect what Dean Phillips is doing. He is saying, look, it's time for a new generation of leadership. He is an impressive person. He's gone out there. He's talked to voters. And frankly, it's fallen flat. The voters have said,

you know, we want to stick with Joe Biden. In New Hampshire, which was a lot of, really like an ideal scenario for an upset there. Joe Biden's name wasn't even on the ballot. Dean Phillips camped out there, you know, for a month. And, you know, Biden still won 65 to 19%. So it was, so you can listen to voters what they're saying in polls, and then you can listen to voters what they're doing when they're actually voting. My hope is this, at a certain point, this race is going to be over. I think Dean Phillips is running a spirited effort. I think he's going to lose. But in the end, my hope is that Democrats say like, okay, we tested this.

We're sticking with Joe Biden and we're going to stick with him, you know, hook, line, and sinker. Because he's been an excellent president, okay? He's been an excellent president. And the nightmare scenario beyond any horror film we've ever seen in our lives is one election away from destroying that everything this country has been. in the last 250 years. Thank you, Jim Kessler. Okay, Jeff Weaver, we're going to give you the last word in our debate today, be it resolved, the Democrats need a new nominee.

Yeah, and let me, again, thank everybody, including Jim and all the folks at the Monk debates. Look, you know, as much as I appreciate the kind words about Dean Phillips, you know, the truth of the matter is that we have not really had an open and democratic primary process this time, as Jim knows. You know, the schedule was rearranged to benefit Joe Biden to shield him from a competition. In some states in this country, Florida, North Carolina, and Tennessee, Dean Phillips was kept off the ballot by party machinations. In Wisconsin, they tried to do that in the Supreme Court in Wisconsin overturned it.

The attorney of the Secretary of State in Massachusetts overturned what the Democratic Party was trying to do there. So there really has not been an open debate. And I could give you, I won't because I don't want to help them. But, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of consultants and other political people in Washington, D.C., that I have tried to recruit to this campaign who wouldn't go near it. Don't even want to know that anyone to know that I've talked to them about it because of the punishment that will come down from on high. So let's not call this an open primary. I mean, there's no debates.

I mean, one of the reasons that Jim mentioned something very, very important, which is these third party candidates who have to be defeated in November. But let's be clear, if Joe Biden had agreed to debates as we normally do in the Democratic Party process, I guarantee you that Kennedy would be running inside the party. Cornell West would be running inside the party. I don't know about Jill Stein. But I can guarantee you that these people will be running inside the party because it would want to get the exposure that one gets from having a presidential debates. So in some ways, the president's people in trying to massage the system so that it shields

Joe Biden from any kind of real competition in this contest, which they're very afraid of, has led to many of the problems that they're now facing, including these third party candidates. So in some ways, it's a creature of their own making. And I'm not quite sure how they undo it. I will certainly do my part once this is all settled to make sure the Democratic nominee is elected. But, you know, many of these problems, again, are problems of their own making because they themselves do not have the confidence in Joe Biden that one would expect that they would have in a sitting president. Thank you, Jeff Weaver, for that closing statement. And thank you both, gentlemen, for a terrific debate on an important topic.

You addressed it with civility substance. terrific knowledge and insight. We really appreciate you joining the program today and helping our community think through this important debate. So thank you again for your time and let's do this again soon. Thank you. Thank you. Well, that wraps up today's debate. I want to thank our participants, Jeff and Jim. They've certainly given us a lot to think about. If you have feedback or reflections on what you've just heard on this or any of our podcast, please send us an email to podcast at monkdebates.com. Also, just a friendly reminder that you can get full-length editions of our popular Friday Focus podcast that comes out each and every Friday, looking at world and current events for as little as $25 a year.

50 cents an episode. It's the best deal going. You can check out a sample of the podcast on our website and enroll now for the full-length editions at triple-w monkdebates.com. click on Friday Focus in the top site navigation. Thank you for spending some time with us today and lending your attention to our efforts to bring back the art of public debate, one conversation at a time.

I'm your host and moderator, Rudyard Griffith. The Monk Debates are a project of the Aurea and Peter and Melanie Monk charitable foundations. Rudyard Griffiths and Ricky Gerwitz are the producers. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating. Thank you again for listening.