The Munk Debates Podcast - Friday Focus: Munk Debate on the Two-State Solution and China's chokehold on the U.S.

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

To find out how to purchase tickets to the Munk Debate on the Two-State Solution (or to access the livestream) go to www.munkdebates.com Rudyard and Janice preview our upcoming 2025 autumn mainstage Munk Debate on the Two-State Solution taking place on December 3rd in Toronto. What can we expect from the team of Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni, who believe Israel's future depends on pursuing two states for two peoples? Can the team of Ayelet Shaked and Micheal Oren make a compelling case that it is in Israel's best interest not to pursue this path? Rudyard explains how and why we landed on this debate and these speakers. In the second half of the show Rudyard and Janice turn to Chinese-American relations following Trump's trade meeting this week with Xi Jinping. The US backed down on a range of tariff threats and most importantly on high tech exports to China. Why did Trump agree to this? There is a codependency between these two superpowers that will only break when either China is able to manufacture advanced AI chips or the US breaks China's monopoly on critical rare earth minerals. Does Trump have the patience and resolve to stay the course? And how should Canada pursue its own trade relationship with China in order to protect our interests and specifically the struggling auto sector? To support the Friday Focus podcast consider becoming a donor to the Munk Debates for as little as $25 annually, or $.50 per episode. Canadian donors receive a charitable tax receipt.   This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The following is a complimentary excerpt of this week's edition of the Friday Focus podcast by The Monk Debates. To access full-length editions of each and every episode, along with all kinds of great additional benefits and perks, become a donor to the Monk debates. You can do that for as little as $25 a year, and you'll receive each and every year 50 Friday Focus episodes at full length. It's all available right now on our website. in just a few simple clicks. Triple W. The Monk Debates.com. Look for the Friday Focus option in our navigation bar, the top right of the website. Make your donation, and we will send you each and every Friday a link to listen to the

full-length edition of this program. Thanks in advance for your generous contribution. Welcome to the Friday Focus podcast on the eve. We hope of a World Series victory for Canada. I'm Rudyard Griffiths, chair of the monk debates, joined in studio by baseball. A super fan, Janice Gross Stein, founding director of the Monk School of Global Affairs. Janice, how many years have you been going to watch the Blue Jays? It's actively, it's at least 20.

Yeah. And I would like to sidetrack our whole plan for the show and talk about how John Schneier's management skills are a metaphor for the world, but I don't expect you to let me do it. Well, let's, maybe in next week's episode, if we win, we'll give him the kudos for having management skills the rest of the world could, uh, you know that if we win is a big F, folks. So everybody has to send positive vibes for tonight. So let's have a prediction from you as someone who's watched this team very carefully. They had a horrible season last year.

Friends of mine were so frustrated they were handing in their tickets. I got one of the, I got one of those seasons. tickets. Yeah, well, tell us, do you think they take it tonight or is it going to go to a seventh game? I think we're in for a nail bite or seventh game. And those seventh games are near-death experiences for everybody, including the rabbit fans like me. Janice, this is amazing. I wish you the best. I am a complete fair weather friend when it comes to baseball, but I will be, you know, there in the final innings, hopefully cheering us on. It be so satisfying to beat the Americans at their national pastime at this moment. Talking about big events, Janice, I just want to

spend a moment with you in the community talking about the monk debate that we've announced the main stage monk debate for December 3rd. We've gone and done it. It's taken us 17 years. We've thought about this debate topic for a long time. We've always resisted it. But we felt, Janice, that now was the time to have a debate about a two-state solution in light of the shaky ceasefire that is underway right now in Gaza. How important is it to have this debate? To start talking, in this case, among some of the most prominent Israeli public figures about Israel's, frankly, willingness to contemplate a two-state solution. I think it's really important, Rudyard, its willingness, its capacity, because we are dealing with repetitive cycles of warfare.

This is not, the last two years have been a nightmare, but this is a decades-old problem. There has to be a political solution for the Palestinian people. There are different ways to think about it, but this cycle of violence will continue until there is. is a political answer for Palestinians. And this debate just tackles that one head on. And there will be an election in Israel. I think this debate will happen there too. Let's go through the speakers.

For those of you watching online, bringing them up on screen here. We have Ehud Omer. Let's begin with him, former Prime Minister of Israel. He's arguing on the pro side of our resolution, be it resolved, it's in Israel's national interest to support a two-state solution. Who is Ehud Omerd, and why should we be listening to him at this time? He's a, I think you just said in your introduction, a former prime minister who I think came closest of any leader in Israel.

the differences between what he put on the table and what the Palestinians that that time would accept were small. He was undone not by Arab-Israeli politics. He was undone because there were corruption charges against him. He was convicted, so he was weak. He couldn't mobilize the coalition. And unfortunately, this is an ongoing story. And that's why. not only willingness, but you know as somebody who's an expert in domestic politics, you have to have the capacity to get it over the line, and he did not. Let's keep looking at on the pro side. So the speaker's arguing in favor of our motion, that, again, it's in Israel's national interest, and we'll define that on the debate stage

on December 3rd to support a two-state solution. Zipney-Livney, who is? is she and why is she when it comes to female politicians, arguably one of the most influential and I would say beloved amongst a large section of the Israeli public? She's a force of nature to be living. She really is. Former Foreign Minister long career in politics. And boy, Rudyard, it helps to be a savvy politician. know, she's able to put it together to build the political support for what she needs.

You know, her party is now reduced to a much smaller port. I mean, you know, it's amazing what's happened. How far the fulcrum has moved to the right in Israel after two years of war. That's what you would expect, but still. So it's important to have her voice. And I honestly think this is an opportunity for her to make her case as we, as Israel moves into an election, which in many ways will be the most important as ever held. Let's go to our con debaters. So these are the two that we've paired up who will be arguing against the motion saying it's not in Israel's interest, national interest at this moment, or maybe full stop ever to have a two-state solution. Alayette Shaq, she is a young dynamic. You know, some people would say part of the future of right-wing politics in Israel. Many of us here probably not our cup of tea in terms of maybe a little on the, not simply the Lekud part of the party,

but someone who has in a role as interior minister, been part of this view of an expansionary role for the state of Israel in the West Bank and an aggressive stance on the war in Gaza. You got it exactly right, Roger Ayeletchuk had. And it's a very interesting really. You're absolutely right to that as Interior Ministry. She moved the party to the right. You know, in many ways the West Bank is a neglected subject.

all of this. It's a flashpoint, really. And there's some controversial resolutions going through the Knesset right now. They're moving forward on votes to annex the West Bank portions of it, despite J.D. Vance and President Donald Trump saying, no, absolutely not. You know, should the first of all, those resolutions can pass, but the prime ministers walked away from them. So that matters in the context here because it would be suicide. I mean, this is where. This is One issue in which Donald Trump has stared Netanyahu in the face, narrow his eyes, and said, forget it. This is not happening.

It's the first time, really, that a president has faced down a prime minister. She is one of the foremost proponents of annexation. And one of the points, Redyard, there has been a series of violations against the rights of Palestinian inhabitants. You know, by settlers, Ayelik looks the other way when this happens. She believes that any kind of Palestinian state on the West Bank would be a mortal threat. And for her, it's a never answer. And I think we'll hear that during the debate. Interesting.

Why she interesting? You know, in a way, she foreshadows what's happening in the right wing in American politics. She's part of the high-deck economy. Right? And you and I think, Yeah, would both acknowledge that these communities that were some of the hot tech economy

in Silicon Valley is fused with the MAGA movement in ways that are really changing the folk from American politics. You're going to see that in the debate. And you're the moderator, so go after that one venture. I will love to do that.

Our final debater is someone who I've, Turn to as a writer and a historian over many years, he's written some important books about Israel, about six-day war, was my introduction to Michael Oren. He has also, though, had a prominent career in Israeli public life, and he'll be joining the con side of the debate to argue against a two-state solution as being in the interest of Israel. Who is Michael Oren? So I knew him first. as you did, as a scholar. And, you know, he did a lot of really great work in the archives as the wonky side of me.

When you go after the documents and you really get the record straight and Michael was very good. Became ambassador to the UN, so entered public life. And from the moment he entered public life, Michael began to move to the right. So the Michael Warren, the historian, is not the same Michael Orrin that you're going to get. and he will be, he's less ideological than Ayala Chukhad is in this debate. He just believes the evidence is overwhelming. That withdrawal clears the space for those who are determined to destroy the state of Israel. You know, one of the things we don't talk about Rudyard is that Hamas,

because it was a withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. from the territory of Gaza, Hamas does not, the goal of Hamas is not only an or even an independent Palestinian state, it's an independent Islamic state in all the territory of mandated Palestine. And when people like Michael Orrin see where we are almost 20 years after the withdrawal, I think that it's that that that drives his arguments. So there's huge gaps here on the stage at this debate. Yeah, former also ambassador of the United States, a senior deputy minister in Benjamin, one of Benjamin Nantanyahu's previous governments.

Let's just wrap up by the focus of this debate. So we made a very conscious decision to have four prominent Israelis. And some people, and what your response is, some people might say, well, where are the Palestinians? You're debating a two-state solution, and there are no Palestinian voices on this stage. And I think I want to be clear as the chair of the debates, along with Ricky Gerowitz, our managing director who put this debate together, that our theory of the case was that before we can even enter into negotiations, hopefully at some point, between, you know, duly and democratically elected Palestinian government officials and officials of the state of Israel,

Israel itself needs to figure out if, when, how, where a Palestinian state could and should exist, and that that is the debate in a sense that has to happen now. It's a prequel to that larger conversation. What do you feel about that framing and give us your honest assessment? I mean, this is an issue that you spent a lot of your career engaged with. So, look, I think you're absolutely right to identify. as a debate that must happen in Israel. The debate is probably inside Israel.

That debate will be what would not threaten the security of Israel. And, you know, there's a huge range in how people define security, frankly. And I think that's a really important point. Is there any political solution for Palestinians which gives Palestinians the rights that they, like any other people have, is there any solution that would not threaten the existence of Israel? There's a parallel debate that Palestinians are having. There's a broad range of opinion inside communities in Palestine about what the future should look like. Is it a one-state solution, a secular democratic state?

Is it an Islamic state? Is it a two-state solution? Now, given the condition in which Palestinians now find themselves, no possibility if debate really on the West Bank, given an authority, the Palestine authority, it hasn't had an election. Since 2006, we're coming on 20 years. So getting those voices out. And in Gaza, of course, there's such a focus on survival right now. It's tough to have that debate, but that debate has to take place inside both communities. And just finally, Janice, what do you think it means that in Canada, in Toronto, we're going to have this debate and we're going to assemble these four very prominent Israeli figures?

I'd be curious to your thoughts. Could this debate happen in Israel now? Maybe. I do feel that it is the monk debate's mission to take on difficult debates. We are not here to have debates on easy subjects. And we're, I think in this case, particularly myself and Ricky Gerowitz, our managing director, we're committed to trying to have hopefully a debate that moves the conversation forward in whatever direction it's going to go. The Monk debates is antistasis.

We want, you know, the public square to be dynamic, to be a place where ideas are debated. And hopefully something comes of all that. What do you think could come out of a debate like this where you have these very high-profile figures in Israel who have come to Canada, like so many Americans before in the history of our series, have come to Toronto and come to Canada to have debates, frankly, that they can't have in their own country? Yeah, I look, I hope, I hope that this debate echoes back into the public square inside Israel, where this topic is so hot, you know, so conflict in domestic politics, so exacerbating. And I, you know, I think that the four debaters that you've assembled will be well aware that an election is coming inside Israel. And yes, the venue is the Monk Debates, and the Monk Debates created that platform, but the audience is 7,000 kilometers away.

Yeah. Talking about audiences, tickets for this debate will go on sale early next week. If you are a Monk debate donor at the supporter or curator level, you're going to get an advanced selection from the best seats in the house. If you're not a supporter or curator, head over to our website, triplew.munkdebates.com and grab a membership and a charitable receipt now. This debate, like all of our debates, I think, is going to, sell out quickly, given the urgency of the topic and the quality of the people participating. And we just welcome people to be part of our community, get together in person in downtown Toronto, to have this debate in service of the cause of debate and in service, hopefully, moving this really important conversation on a two-state solution going forward. So, Janice, thank you so much for all your help these past months, advising Ricky and me personally on, you know, how to think about these issues. Your wisdom and knowledge has really been informing our process. And I think it's culminated in just what I hope

for the monk debates, which is that world-class standard of the best names on either side with, you know, credentials, people both who have been in the political arena, have sharpened their minds and pens with serious academic insight and rigor and who in the case of Ehud Olmart have summited the Israeli political system as prime minister. Any final words about the debate? Circle the date in your calendar. December 3rd. I've done it in mine. Yeah, thank you so much. Let's say goodbye to our complimentary listeners and viewers. We're going to take a quick break and then join our monk donors on the other side to talk a little bit about China. What happened this week at the big summits in Asia, both with Canada and the United States, and talk about a live stream

that Janice and I will be doing both in person and on the web with hot docks coming up on the 7th of November. A little public version of this show next week. We'll be at the hot dog cinema on Bloor Street, and we'll share some more information on our website right now, show description, go check it out, or become a donor and join us for the follow-on conversation and we'll give you some more information. Thank you. Back to you in a moment.

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