The Munk Debates Podcast - Friday Focus: Trump attacks Zelensky and Xi Jinping sees an opportunity

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Friday Focus provides listeners with a focused, half-hour masterclass on the big issues, events and trends driving the news and current events. The show features Janice Gross Stein, the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and bestselling author, in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths, Chair and moderator of the Munk Debates. The following is a sample of the Munk Debates' weekly current affairs podcast, Friday Focus. Rudyard and Janice start the show by talking about Donald Trump's personal attack on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Are business opportunities in Russia causing the US to abandon its allies and European partners? The long term consequence of this - depriving the US of any legitimacy among Democratic states - is catastrophic. Rudyard and Janice then turn to Taiwan and the South China Sea where Xi Jinping is taking advantage of USAID's closure to leverage Chinese money and gain influence abroad. In the absence of American power and pressure, can the Chinese leader get the territory he has long sought without military force? To access full-length editions of the Friday Focus podcast consider becoming a donor to the Munk Debates for as little as $25 annually, or $.50 per episode. Canadian donors receive a charitable tax receipt. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The following is a complimentary excerpt of this week's edition of the Friday Focus podcast by The Monk Debates. To access full-length editions of each and every episode, along with all kinds of great additional benefits and perks, become a donor to the Monk debates. You can do that for as little as $25 a year, and you'll receive each and every year 50 Friday Focus episodes at full length. It's all available right now on our website. in just a few simple clicks. Triple W. The Monk Debates.com. Look for the Friday Focus option in our navigation bar, the top right of the website.

Make your donation, and we will send you each and every Friday a link to listen to the full-length edition of this program. Thanks in advance for your generous contribution. Welcome to the Friday Focus podcast. Rudyard Griffiths here, the executive director of the Monk Debates. I'm joined by Janice Gross Stein, and the founding director of the Monk School of Global Affairs.

She joins us from far away Taiwan today. So we're going to talk a little bit about China and Taiwan. Janice, how do we find you? We find me a little tired, but otherwise fascinated by what I'm hearing from Asian allies. Surprise, Redyard, they're worried. Well, let's talk about somebody else who, no doubt, is very worried this week, and that is Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, a seeming rupture, Janice, that happened over the last 48 hours between Zelensky and President Trump,

kind of Twitter tirade by the president, accusing Zelensky of being a unsuccessful, or was it moderately successful comedian, a dictator, and someone who was asleep when his Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant, was in Kiev to meet with him, again, factually inaccurate. What do we make of this, Janice? I'm, you maybe can tell my voice. I'm getting a little weary. We're less than 30 days into this presidency, and I don't know whether we should be talking about these things or whether it is a complete and utter waste of time, because

it's all so preposterous and fact-free and devoid of the values and principles and ideals that any country, let alone the United States, should hope to uphold on the world stage through its duly elected leaders. Look, Roger, this was an unprecedentedly vicious attack. it was personal, it was nasty. It frankly was vintage Trump. But the bigger question, and I think you're right here, let's stay off the details, you know, away from the content of truth social,

which is coming at us as well, and really talk about how do you manage through this? That's the problem that Zelensky faces now. The United States, in effect, has moved from an ally. Certainly to an antagonist, if not an adversary. Vladimir Putin must be enjoying himself. And one of the big questions to think about it, is Vladimir Poker the better,

is Vladimir Putin the better long-term poker player here? Is he playing Donald Trump rather than the other way around? What would be the scenario in which Trump is playing Putin? It seems that Vladimir Putin is getting virtually everything that he wants, a seeming commitment that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. A Ukrainian election that Putin has long been demanding on the trumped-up charge that Zelensky is illegitimate and does not enjoy popular support, despite recent public opinion polls showing over a majority, 50% of more of Ukrainians would vote for him again to become president.

And on top of it all, Putin seems to be maneuvering Trump into a de facto recognition before any negotiations have begun that Russia will keep all of its territorial gain. So please, would light me on the masterful four-dimensional change. chess that Donald Trump is playing right now with Vladimir Putin. Yeah, you're exactly right. And that's why I made the point. And you left out one big piece of this story, Roger Tritch, is really fascinating. When Russian officials who are really capable and up to speed met in Saudi Arabia with the new Trump team, and it is really new, only a part of the time we spent talking about Ukraine. The rest of the time was about

what wonderful business opportunities there are in Russia once this is over or put to the side. Look at the investment opportunities that could come once sanctions are lifted. Think about the renewed opportunities for U.S. businesses and all the money they left on the table when they withdrew from Russia. And they came with a prepared document, Kirolov.

You can imagine how attractive Donald Trump finds that. The big goal is that, in fact, U.S. and allied sanctions may come off. That's what Vladimir Putin is really angling for, because ironically, his economy is really struggling. That's what's hurting the most. Yeah. I guess when I'm struggling with Janice is just the idea that any of this is in America's

interests, Europe's interests, Canada's interests, this rapid rehabilitation, musings by the President that Vladimir Putin and Russia should rejoin the G7 at Canaanascus in June in Canada. Yeah. I mean, I guess we live in a consequence-free world that you can invade another country, kill a couple hundred thousand of its citizens, rocket its cities, destroy its power grid, threaten its nuclear power plants. And this wins you a door prize of re-entry into the G7 as a partner. in the reshaping of the world order.

You know, it is stunning, Rudyard, and no wonder we talk about it, because this is the United States completely abandoning its allies, you know, defying its European partners, contentious, frankly, of Ukraine and the sacrifice that Ukrainians have made. And frankly, and this is not a new thing with Donald Trump, it's been there since 2016.

It's just been very difficult to figure it out. Doing a deal or planning to do a deal with Vladimir Putin. You mentioned that I am here in Taiwan, Redyard. And so what is some of the interesting speculation among Asian leaders who know Vladimir Putin? They are speculating that he will take all the gains that are on the table and at some point say no to Donald Trump. After Donald Trump has weakened the United States, weakened the alliance and deprive the United States of any legitimacy among democratic states. Yeah. I guess

I just Yeah I think it's catastrophic Richard I really do Yeah and I guess At what point do we

acknowledge that we're in the middle of a collapse of sorts I mean it seems as if maybe all of us for the sake of not acknowledging

just how utterly dire this situation is we are kind of pretending that, one, everything's going to be okay. Two, you're not doing this, but others are impugning, you know, strategy, grand strategy to all of this, you know, a refashioning of a, you know, multipolar world with a fortress America strong and insulated against global threats in Canada reduced to a vassal state. I mean, that may be a moment in time.

I don't think it's a permanent security solution for Canada, America, or anyone else. I don't know, Jed. I just, maybe since the frustration of my voice, I just, I feel as if we could look back at other moments in history and understand that they are waterfalls. Yeah. And that once you're over the fall and you're on the other side, there's no going back to where you were before. And in some cases in history, these waterfalls lead to very bad places and consequences that, you know, you'd rather not ponder.

So you pretend that all of this isn't happening. I guess that's my frustration. I feel like in the economy and a lot of our media, in the conversations that people have, our heads are in the sand. And maybe my greatest disappointment is level. at Americans themselves who seem either paralyzed by this or indifferent, or, in fact, some of them are cheering all of this on. They're cheering the burning of the furniture, you know, in the hearth place of American democracy in this once great republic to the south.

Yeah, I think you put your finger on the biggest issue, Richard. It's, you know, what Donald Trump is doing. is frankly alarming enough. But where's the opposition? We've seen in the past that institutions inside the United States have stood up and opposed when fundamental values

and democratic practices are challenged. So who does that? Well, the Congress. And even inside the president's party, there were strong supporters of Vladimir Zelensky in the Republican Party up until a month ago. Where are those senators?

They are, you know, carefully crafting their words to make excuses for what Donald Trump is doing. We have universities that are frankly cowed now by the crippling cuts in funding. You know, as well as I what the big newspapers have done, the editorial policies of the big newspapers. So what's really, really discouraging is the lack of opposition up to this point inside the United States. When I say that to American leaders, some of whom I bumped it to this week, because we're doing a forum in Taipei. The Halifax Forum has taken the shoulder on the road to Taipei. And so there are a group of leaders here.

They are quietly confident. They're saying this, he is at the peak of his power now. That's what I hear back. He is at the peak of his power. Just give it time. Opposition will coalesce. The midterms are not far off. I look at the damage that's been done in four weeks, Roger.

And that feels to me like it's an eternity away. But that's what you're hearing back. Yeah, this week, Thursday, cash, Patel, hardcore MAGA disciple of Steve Bannon and others, was voted by the Senate, confirmed as the head of the FBI. Amongst Cash Patel's many distinctions and honors, he wrote the catchy MAGA jingle celebrating the January 6th rioters. I heard it was a big hit on the MAGA charts. I haven't heard Cash's craftsmanship as a composer, but this man with his enemies list published in a prominent MAGA book that he wrote in the last 24 months

is now the head of America's premier law enforcement agency. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now with you, Janice, because we're going to hit the midmark of our show today in a moment. But it goes to your point about senators and journalists. I'm just, I can't listen to the Sunday morning yak shows, you know, on American mainstream media and television, because all of this is analyzed as if this is not normal, but as if this is just politics, as if this is just another,

administration with another set of appointees. And look, maybe I have this totally wrong. Maybe all of this will work out in the end, and you're right, Trump's power will wane, and the courts will get their hooks into him. But Cash Patel as the head of the FBI? I don't pick so, right, and I know we have to go to break. But let me just say that the damage done, you think about, and, you know, there, You listen to Ukrainians who are absolutely horrified.

And by the way, determined and gritty, they are not going to give up. And they are not going to be forced to the table to cede everything that they fought for. I think that's one thing that Donald Trump has not yet figured out. The Ukrainians will not be crushed, even if they move to an insurgency. they will not be crushed. So this is not the end of the story, but I'm with you completely. I think the biggest mistake we can make

is to underestimate the damage that's being done here and not to take it seriously. And some of our Canadian leaders are also saying, this will pass. We will live through this. I'm not there. No, I'm not there either. Let's take a short break.

We're going to come back on the other side with our monk donors, all the great people who are out there supporting our little Sentinel Post, a foxhole for hopefully reasonable, sensible, civil, substantive conversation.

It feels like an increasingly small and lonely part of the public square, but we're here for you and you're here for us. So let's go talk to our donors after this short break. Thanks for listening to this excerpt of the Friday Focus podcast to get full-length editions of each and every episode of this program.

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