The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Debate on the Two-State Solution: Opening Statements

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

On this special podcast episode we are sharing the opening statements from the Munk Debate on the Two-State Solution which took place on December 3rd in front of an audience of 3,000 people at Toronto's Meridian Hall. The debate resolution was Be it resolved, it is in Israel's interest to support a two-state solution Arguing in favour of the resolution was former Israeli prime minister, finance minister, and mayor of Jerusalem, Ehud Olmert. His debate partner was Tzipi Livni, who served as Israel's justice and foreign minister and the country's chief peace negotiator in 2008 and 2014. Arguing against the resolution was the celebrated historian, former Israeli ambassador to the United States and deputy minister in the Prime Minister's Office, Michael Oren. His debate partner was Ayelet Shaked, who most recently served as Israel's justice minister and minister of the interior. As with all our live Munk Debates, the audience voted on this resolution prior to hearing the debate. Initially, 67% of attendees voted in favour of the debate motion, and 33% voted against. We did another poll after the debate to find out how many people had changed their minds once they listened to arguments from both sides.  If you would like to watch or listen to the full debate go to www.munkdebates.comBecome a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What we hope is that hope for something that has never happened before, that can change lives for everyone. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Because I support, I do support the two-state solution because I care deeply about one state, my state, the state of Israel. Now, the Palestinians do not want a two-state solution. They cannot sustain a state, and if they could, it would not be a peaceful state, but a launch pad for war. Do not opt for the surgery that kills the patient. Welcome to this special edition of the Monk Debates podcast.

On this episode, we're sharing the opening statements from the Monk debate on a two-state solution, which took place December 3rd in downtown Toronto at Meridian Hall in front of a sold-out car. crowd of 3,000 people. The debate resolution, be it resolved. It is in Israel's interest to support a two-state solution. Arguing in favor of the resolution was former Israeli prime minister, finance minister, and mayor of Jerusalem, Ehud Olmer. His debate partner was Sipi Livni, who served as Israel's Justice and Foreign Affairs Minister and the country's chief peace negotiator in the 2008 and 2014 peace negotiations. Arguing against the resolution was a celebrated historian,

former Israeli ambassador to the United States, and deputy minister in Benjamin Netanyahu's prime minister's office, Michael Oren. His debate partner was Ayelet Chiquet, who most recently served as Israel's justice minister and minister of the interior. As with all of our live monk debates, the audience voted on the resolution prior to hearing the debate. Initially, 67% of attendees voted in favor of the motion. 33% were opposed. We did another poll after the debate to find out how many

people changed their minds once they'd listened to both sides of the argument. Needless to say, it was one of the more dramatic swings in public opinion in our hall in the history of recent Monk debates. Let's join the debate with Ehud Olmert's opening statement. He's arguing again in favor of the motion, be it resolved. It's in Israel's interest to support a two-state solution. The war in Gaza was unavoidable the result of a very barbaric, horrific, murderous attack against innocent Israeli civilians, not against army, not against the army. installations against civilians in their homes, in the living rooms, in the bedrooms,

in the most brutal manner in modern history. Over a thousand Israelis were massacred. Israel had to react. There was no way that Israel would not reach out for the murderers, for the leaders of Hamas. At the time that it started, there was a universal solidarity and support. Starting with President Biden, Prime Minister Sonak from Great Britain, President Macron, Chancellor Schult, everyone. They all understood that Israel had to reach out. And indeed, we eliminated most of the leaders of Hamas.

We destroyed the tunnels. We destroyed the bunkers. We destroyed the launchers. We destroyed their rockets. And we destroyed many of the important leaders. and we defeated Hamas. Now we are more than two years after those days. And there is no question that Israel won that war.

We achieved most of what can be achieved by a military operation. We destroyed the Hamas, we destroyed everything. This is the time when you have to ask ourselves, okay, what do we take it from here? Where do we take it from here? Where do we go? Okay. Let's suppose that we would have killed every one of the Hamas leaders.

Still, there are six million Palestinians, more than three in the West Bank, and more than two in Gaza. What is the vision for the future? I believe that Israel was left with two basic operations. One is to carry on the same status quo which existed for many years. War, terror, confrontation, suicidal attacks in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and other parts of the country, Israeli reaction. And this is going on. Those who believe that we have to keep the status quo, basically,

basically think that Israel has to have a complete military control over the territories everywhere, in Gaza and in the West Bank in every place. We ignore the fact that for the last 60 years, this is precisely what we were doing. Did it stop terror? Did it provide more security for the people of Israel? Did it change something within the Palestinians to engage? encourage some, some, few to change the attitude, or perhaps it did the opposite.

Those who believe that we have to stick to the present status quo, basically what they offer us is more of the same. Keep on, growing on, more, blood, terror, killing. The alternative is to embark on a serious political dialogue. in order to achieve a comprehensive peace solution that will end once and for all the historic conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

There is only one way to do it. That at the end of such a process, there will be, the Palestinians will be allowed to establish their own independent sovereign state on the basis of 67's with some modifications. in the Arab side of Jerusalem as the capital. This is what I negotiated with them at the time that I was prime minister, with my right-hand person at that time,

the Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ms. Livni, with my partner tonight also. Now, there are quite a few people that say to me, but look what happened. You proposed to them, and they didn't sign. One must understand, they didn't sign. they made an historic error that is unforgotten and unforgiven. But when I propose a Palestinian state, I propose it not because of them.

Because I think that this is what's good for Israel, not for them necessarily. It has to be good for them if they will have to be part of it. But first and foremost, I propose it because this is what is good for Israel. And we have to remember, it's the beginning is a Palestinian state. Palestinian state is the basis upon which a regional new setup is going to be built. With agreements with Saudi Arabia, with Indonesia, with North African countries, a whole change, a dramatic change of setup that will make Israel friendly with the majority of the Muslims and the Arab countries in the world.

First time in the history of the state of Israel that not all of the Arab and Muslim world will be totally committed to destroy the state of Israel, but rather dramatically change. Everything can happen. It will have to start with a political solution for the historic conflict between us and the Palestinians. And there can be no other solution. There are all kinds of ideas that are floating in the air. But a solution that will establish a new process. that will allow the Palestinians to exercise the rights of self-determination and for us to live in a

entirely different way this is the solution the choice is very simple at the end of the day one route continue the fight the occupation in every part of the West Bank and Gaza terror more terror more Israeli reaction what we hope is that hope for something that has never happened before, that can change lives for everyone. This is a choice. I'm for a Palestinian state as the basis for the future. And here you were, sir, worried about the clock,

and you nailed it to the second. Congratulations, well done. Up next, arguing against the motion is our first speaker, Ayala Shakette. Good evening, everyone. I'm very happy to be here. and I'm glad that I have the opportunity to explain to you why I and the vast majority of the Israelis opposed the establishment of a Palestinian state, and I hope that I will change your mind. Since biblical times over 3,000 years ago, Israel has been the homeland of the Jewish people.

The Jewish people have historical rights over the land of Israel. Having said that, one can ask, okay, you have historical rights over the land of Israel, but why can't you split it with the Palestinians? So the answer is very simple. We want to live, not to be blown up on a bus or in a restaurant, not to be slaughtered in our beds, not to be raped or butchered in a music festival. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Many attributes this quote to Albert Einstein.

Well, in the late 90s, Hewad Barak committed to establish a Palestinian state. He negotiated with Yasser Arafat. I think you are useful idiots. Useful idiots of a terror organization. Now I'll continue. So thank you. So Arafat refused and launched a terror rave. Over 1100 people were murdered.

Families, children were blown up on buses and in restaurants. In 2005, Ariel Sharon carried out the disengagement from Gaza. And Ehud Olmert and Zipi Livni who was sitting here next to me, they will keep out nose to it. In Gaza Strip, we destroyed all the Israeli settlements. Actually, we withdrew from all the area. Ariel Sharon, Olmert, and Livni did ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza. In essence, we gave them a state. A year later, Hamas won the election and carried out a military coup.

Hamas murdered the Palestinian Authority official. It just threw them out of rooftops and established a terror state. So they got a state, but what did they do with it? They didn't establish the Singapore of the Middle East, all the dreams of the people back then. They establish a terrorist state, they invest all their money, not in education, not in health, they invest all their money in weapons and tunnels. IDF soldiers were shocked to discover that in every house in Gaza, in every house, they find missiles and rockets under our children rooms, tunnel shafts in living room, a friend of mine,

find the book Mind Kampf near the bed of one of the Hamas commanders with remarks. They established a Nazi-like entity. And then they launched a genocidal barbaric attack on Israel. They carried out the great massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. It wasn't just Hamas terrorists who slaughtered and murdered. One of the investigator of October 7 told me that what she said, shocked him the most was the civilians, civilians, farmers who just left their homes and fields on Saturday morning and ran to Israel to slaughter Jews.

Acts of rape and mutilation were done by civilians. One of the most horrifying testimonies of that day described Hamas members and civilians abusing a young, beautiful girl from the Nova Festival. They cut her breasts, torturing her, and murdering her. So you can say, okay, this is Gaza, but what's happened in Judean, Samaria? Well, the Palestinian Authority is the ruler. First, the Palestinian Authority educational system is full of incitement and anti-Semitism. They educate their children to hate Jews.

Second, they pay two murders in the Israeli jail, and if you murder more Jews, you get more money. Third, why haven't there been elections in the Palestinian Authority? Why? Because Abu Mazen knows that Hamas will win. So we must understand most Palestinian, both in Gaza and in Judean Samaria, support Hamas. And also the majority of them support October 7 massacre. It's sad, but it's true.

And here is another truth. The Palestinians already have two states. One they had in Gaza and one in Jordan. I don't know if you know, but over 70% of Jordanians population is Palestinians. Even the queen, the queen of Jordan is a Palestinian. In Judea and Samaria, they manage their civil affairs completely independently. Israel is responsible only for security. And thanks to the IDF, and thanks to the Israeli government, Abu Mazen is still in power,

and the Palestinian Authority is still in power. Without the IDF, and everyone knows that, also them, Hamas would have long carried out a military coup, also in Judea and Samaria. And then the people of Jerusalem would be the victims of the next massacre. So please vote against this resolution. Thank you. Recently, the monk debates hosted a fascinating debate about the two-state solution.

But 90 minutes on this contentious topic can also barely scratch the surface. After all, Israel is a hotbed of conflicting ideologies, identities, interests and historical narratives. Even for experts, that's a lot to keep up with. And it's not just Israel. The Middle East is changing fast. Alliances are shifting. New power centers are emerging and longstanding assumptions are being rewritten in real time.

If you want to understand what's really going on, I'd like to invite you to join me on the Call Me Back podcast. I'm Dan Cienor, host of Call Me Back. Our mission is to give you the facts, context, and insights you need. to make sense of Israel and the region. Our contributors include some of the best source journalists in Israel, like Nadavail and Amit Sego, and top thought leaders in the U.S., like Sam Harris and Scott Galloway.

So if you're ready to go deeper, find me on Call Me Back, wherever you get your podcasts. See you there. Zipi Nible, you are our third speaker. Thank you, Ayelet. I listen to you about this really horrific terror attacks, And I completely agree, but I do not understand why do you want to live with them forever between the river and the sea when we want to separate ourselves from them?

Because I support, I do support the two-state solution, because I care deeply about one state, my state, the state of Israel. And I truly... I'm totally worried that the Zionist dream is in danger. I was here for a second, well, our friend here with such lovely language, leaves us for the rest of the evening. We're going to credit Zipney with that time. So rest be assured.

Your right to free speech here will not be denied. So I supported to the same. I supported to state solution because I truly care about Israel, my state. And I believe and I'm worried that the Zionist dream is at risk. And my parents fought in the agreement for the creation of the state of Israel. They met in a robbery of a British money train. They are the first couple that got married in the independent state of Israel. And they truly believed not only in the creation of the state of Israel as a Jewish state,

but they believed that it should be all over the land of Israel. But when the United Nations in 1947 decided to partition the land into an Arab and a Jewish state, the Jewish leadership made the tough decision, but they decided to establish a Jewish democratic state in part of the land, and it was not about the dream of Greater Israel. And we face the same choice today, and we need to make the same decision. Because if we don't, we are on a slippery slope

toward a one-state reality between Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea, with an endless conflict, violent, national religious conflict between our two peoples. Now, we cannot have both. We cannot have the United States. entire land and the Jewish democratic state because we've tried. Almost 60 years since six days war, despite its unbelievable achievement, Israel doesn't have recognized borders. We are paying painful price for terror and wars. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict infiltrates into the Israeli society and it severely damages the relationship.

between Jews and Israeli Arabs within Israel. We have extremism that is growing, brutal attacks on Palestinians in Judea in Samaria, showing what Israel will look like without a solution. And on top of this, Israel is losing its international legitimacy. I'm not saying that there is peace around the corner, but we are losing our way and we need to embrace our original national destination.

So imagine Israel as a car, and we are in a junction, and let's put the destination in our GPS, national GPS. Well, I prefer ways as an Israeli invention, but you can choose. So let's put the destination. We don't need to invent it. It's the Declaration of Independence, a secure Jewish democratic state, nation state for the Jewish people, with equal rights to all its citizens.

And in order to keep these two pillars together, we need to have a Jewish majority. No Jewish state without a Jewish majority, no democracy, without one person, one vote. And therefore, we must stop at the peace station and separate from the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. So two states for two people is the right solution because it gives an answer to national aspiration

of different people in two different countries, in two different states, and this should end the conflict. Now, trust me, this is not a romantic marriage. It is a realistic divorce, splitting the property for the sake of the children, our children. Security is must. Security is matched, so the Palestinians already agreed to a demilitarized state.

Israel will finally have recognized borders with the right and capability to defend itself, including within the future Palestinian state. And you can ask, Allmert, what we did together when we had a threat from Syria with a nuclear reactor, and we bombed it in Syria. And, of course, when it comes to the international isolation of Israel, this can change. And as was said before, just by accepting this, embracing this, speaking about this solution, we have normalization with Saudi Arabia, with other Muslim countries in the region, and this can change completely and create regional security alliance that we don't have now against Iran and his proxy.

Okay, but you can ask, but what if there is nobody waiting for us in this peace station? Yes, I've heard about all the Palestinians leader. So maybe you are at all back to the car. We are stuck in a traffic jam, but we are not changing our destination. We are not changing our vision. We do not put obstacles on our ways, and therefore, we must stop expanding settlements that makes future separation impossible, more difficult, and trust me, they do not provide security.

Sending civilians to live within and among these Palestinian villages, this does not provide security. And this is really, while you are speaking about security, this is really another destination. and the destination of the Israeli government now, well, they are speaking about security, which is needed. But it is about greater Israel. It's about separating Israel from its democratic nature.

And this is the end of the Zionist dream for a Jewish democratic, secure state. Thank you. All about it. Great opening statements, everybody. Our last speaker in this first solvo. over the debate is Michael Orrin. Thank you.

Good evening, everybody. Shalom. I'm honored to be with you this evening on this crucial monk debate. I'm an Israeli Jew. I'm an Israeli Jew who believes that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel.

The same right I have to live in Tel Aviv, the same right that Jews have to live in Jerusalem or in Hebron. But I also believe that peace is a sacred obligation and that Palestinians also have rights. It was those beliefs that led me to work with the government of Yitzhak Rabin at the beginning of the Oslo peace process, those beliefs that led me to serve as Israel's ambassador to Washington

at a time when our government's policy was the two-state solution. And it even helped me shape the Trump peace plan, which if you know it or not, was a two-state plan. Throughout, I believed that my views were shared. by the vast majority of Israelis. But today I joined with that same mass majority of Israelis in opposing the two-state solution, and I'm here to tell you why.

Our reasons are three. The Palestinians do not want a two-state solution. The Palestinians cannot run a state, and even if they could, a Palestinian state will not bring peace to the Middle East, but more war. Palestinians don't want a two-state solution. In fact, they hold the world record for a people who have turned down offers of a two-state solution. They turned down the offer the British gave them in 1937, that the UN gave them in 1947,

that Israel and the United States gave them in 2001 and in 2002. And they not just, they only just rejected these offers. They rejected most often with mass violence that killed thousands of people. And the reason for that rejection was never borders, it was never settlements, it was never Jerusalem, that reason was always the same. It was the Palestinian refusal to accept a Jewish state in any borders. According to a recent Palestinian survey,

two-thirds of the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza oppose the two-state solution. No, they want a single state from the river to the sea. Listen to what their report, their supporters are chanting outside. They don't want no two-state. They want all of 48. To date, there has never been a single Palestinian leader, not a single one, who has recognized the existence of a Jewish people,

certainly not recognized. Our right to self-determination are not at home. Never a single Palestinian leader who has ever said there will be an end of claims, end of conflict, a true peace. The Palestinians cannot run a state. there's not a shred of evidence to prove that they can. The Palestinian National Movement, from its very beginning, has constantly splintered between Hamas, between Fatah,

between innumerable factions that often fought each other more viciously than they fought Israel. And the one time the Palestinians received this state in 2005 from us in Gaza, it immediately plummeted into civil war. The Palestinian Authority, meanwhile, is thoroughly corrupt and hated by its own people. President Mahmoud Abbas, as you heard a yell at said, is in the 19th year of his four-year term.

He refuses to stand for re-election because he knows he'll lose. And you create a Palestinian state today, and chances are it's quickly going to become a failed state. We won't have Switzerland on our borders. We'll have Sudan. We won't have Canada on our borders. We'll have Libya.

That's at best. At best. At worst, we're going to have Gaza, we're going to have Hamas, and we're going to have another October 7th. A Palestinian poll, I stress, a Palestinian poll, show that the majority of Palestinians today still applaud October 7th. An even larger majority of Palestinians are against disarming Hamas, even at the price of prolonging the war.

Extraordinary. And if Palestinian elections were held today, Hamas would still win. First election, that Palestinian state becomes a jihadist state that prepares the next October 7th. Now, that state would sit on the high ground. The high ground overlooking Tel Aviv in our only international airport, it would loom over in Israel, which before 1967 was all of nine miles wide.

Folks from Toronto, that's a distance from your CN Tower here to Toronto's airport. That's it, that's the state of Israel. The Palestinian state today isn't a peace plan. It's a blueprint for the next war. We were told, take risks for peace. We did, and we paid for it with blood. We were told everybody knows what the Palestinian state looks like. In fact, nobody knows.

Nobody knows if it's going to be a totalitarian state, or a jihadist state, or both. We were told, don't worry, the Palestinian state will be demilitarized. Yes, just like Hamas is disarmed in Gaza today. in Gaza today. And now, the world wants us to try again. Yes, what the world calls the occupation

is a tremendous burden on Israel, and to the greatest degree possible, we should liken it. And yes, what the world calls settler violence, is abhorrent and must be stopped. And yes, the Palestinians have suffered, and we hope that their suffering will someday end. But jihadists do not distinguish

between right-wing and left-wing. Israelis. Jehattists are not distinguished between settlers and peace activists. A Palestinian state won't end the occupation, it will create a new one. An occupation of Israel flooded with millions of Palestinian refugees claiming the right of return and overwhelming us. That's not two states. That is one state. That's Palestine. Someday, someday, the Palestinians may accept the existence of a Jewish people and our right to independent state. Someday they may stop teaching their children how to kill Jews and stop paying salaries to the terrorists who do.

Someday they choose leaders like King Hussein and Saddam, who recognize the Jewish state and made peace with us. Someday peace may be possible, but that day is not today. For now, the Palestinians do not want a two-state solution. They cannot sustain a state, and if they could, it would not be a peaceful state, but a launch pad for war. Do not opt for the surgery that kills the patient.

stand with the vast majority of Israelis are telling you we want peace, but we want to live. Vote against this resolution. That wraps up today's edition of the Monk Debates podcast. If you'd like to listen or watch the rest of the debate and find out how the audience voted after listening to all the arguments, go to our website, triple-w monkdebates.com. That's M-U-N-K Debateswith-N-S dot com. I want to thank our participants, A-Hood Z-E-Hood-Z. Zippy, Aiellett, and Michael for a civil and substantive debate on a controversial topic that

does not often lend itself to respectful discourse. If you have feedback or reflections on what you've just heard on this or any of our podcast, please send us an email to podcast at monkdebates.com. Thank you for helping us bring back the art of public debate and dialogue one conversation at a time. I'm Roger Griffiths, Chair of the Monk Debates. The Monk debates are a project of the Aurea and Peter and Melanie Monk Charitable Foundations. Rudyard Griffiths and Ricky Gerwitz are the producers.

Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating. Thank you again for listening.