The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Dialogue with Leon Cooperman: anti-semitism on college campuses

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

On this Munk Dialogue we’re speaking to American billionaire investor Leon Cooperman. Leon is as famous for his candid conversations as his success on the stock market, and in this dialogue he doesn’t hold back. Leon tells us why he welcomes the recent rise in interest rates, why he thinks Bidenomics has been a disaster for the US economy, and what stocks he’s investing in right now. We also get his response to the current war between Israel and Hamas, the rise of anti-semitism on campus, and why he has vowed to stop donating to his alma mater, Columbia University.     The host of the Munk Debates is Rudyard Griffiths - @rudyardg.   Tweet your comments about this episode to @munkdebate or comment on our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/munkdebates/ To sign up for a weekly email reminder for this podcast, send an email to [e-mail].   To support civil and substantive debate on the big questions of the day, consider becoming a Munk Member at https://munkdebates.com/membership Members receive access to our 10+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, newsletter and ticketing privileges at our live events. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue - https://munkdebates.com/ Senior Producer: Ricki Gurwitz Editor: Kieran LynchBecome a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When you're a journalist and people don't trust you, it's always your fault. These people need to be represented. They are Canadian. They deserve to have a voice and a seat at the table. It is time to go back to the office, and the time is now. Russia had reasons to be concerned. They had reasons to be fearful. We're at an absolute turning point in reproduction. This is the problem with realism. They just treat all countries the same. They don't distinguish between dictatorships and democracies. Hello, Monk listeners. Rudyard Griffiths here. and moderator, welcome to this, our continuing conversations called the Monk Dialogues. These are

in-depth questions and answers with some of the world's sharpest minds and brightest thinkers. On each Monk dialogue, we go deep into the big issues and ideas that are transforming our world and shaping our future. On this monk dialogue, we're speaking to American billionaire investor Leon Cooperman. Mr. Cooperman is famous for his candid conversations on his storied career as an investor. And in this monk dialogue, he does not hold back. Leon Cooperman tells us why he welcomes the rise in interest rates, why he thinks Bidenomics has been a disaster for the American economy,

and what stocks he's investing in right now. We'll also get his response to the current war between Israel and Hamas, the rise of anti-Semitism on campuses in North America, and why he has vowed to stop donating to his Alamatta Columbia University. Leon Cooperman, welcome to the Monk Dialogues. Nice to be with you. Likewise. Well, let's start with the tragic events, the horrific events of October 7 in Israel.

The reverberations around the world. Hamas designated terrorist organization perpetrated the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. Leon, what has concerned you since then in terms of the public reaction to Israel's legitimate campaign? I'm very concerned about the general level of anti-Semitism.

I'm very concerned about what's going on on college campuses in the country. It's pathetic. I basically have a view that if you're anti-Semite, you're ignorant. The only way you deal with ignorant people is you have to educate them. So what's their problem with Israel? What's the problem with the Jews?

Jews, I think, are two-tenths of one percent of the global population. We have 20 percent of Nobel Prize winners. We've done a lot for the world, a lot for the world. On college campuses, these kids I said yesterday, the day before on another program, I said, you know, these kids have shit for brains. They don't understand, really, in all honesty, I think, you know, shit would probably be insulted by being associated with them. But, you know, if you ask these kids, what is the only reliable ally the United States

has in the Middle East, they don't really know. The answer is Israel. When you ask, what is the only democracy in the Middle East? The answer is Israel. When you basically ask who's the most tolerant society in the Middle East, you know, gays, lesbians, et cetera, it's Israel. And Israel, I believe, gives the right. right to the Palestinian Arabs to vote in Israel.

So, you know, the Hamas and organizations like that have taken all the money, all the aid they've gotten and they've built tunnels rather than, you know, do constructive things. And why they hold us against the Jews is beyond my wildest dreams. I think we have to start holding people accountable. So I've gotten active, you know, I've given probably over the years about $50 million to Columbia Business School, which, you know, frankly, change it to do. in my life. I got, you know, I'm a kid out of the South Bronx. My father came to America

from Marshall Pollard at the age of 12 was a plumber's apprentice. I went to public school in the South Bronx. I went to high school in the South Bronx. I followed the advice of Harleys Greeley and I went west. So I went to the West Bronx to go to college. I went to Hunter College, now called Lehman in the West Bronx. And had a short student at Columbia Business School, which opened the door to Wall Street to me. And I've been very generous with him. But they have a professor in the faculty They was praising Amasa what they did on October 7th. It's disgusting. You know, it's terrible.

It's hard to imagine, you know, endorsing killing of babies, beheading of babies and stuff like that. It's crazy. The world's all screwed up. How do you feel that, Leon, you know, you have been a significant donor to Colombia over $50 million. You know, other people, significant figures, fellow significant figures on Wall Street are now questioning their. donations to other universities. Do you think this is going to be a moment of reckoning? Do you think that donors are now going to start to realize? Unless the academic institutions change in behavior, I think this is a sustainable change. I don't take any great credit for it. I think Mark Rowan was

one of the early ones to speak up, Bill Ackman, you know, and it's just a terrible thing. You know, it's about time. You know, I've taken two giving pledges, one with Buffett and Bill Gates. and one with a friend of my Mike Levin, the Jewish Giving Pledge. So I'm going to give away all my money. And I want to give it to those organizations that make a difference in the world and improve the condition, the human condition. And these accreditions are not doing anything to improve the human condition, in my opinion. And Leon, as you mentioned at the top of the show, anti-Semitism, I think we've all been had a wake-up call just at how widespread it is, the extent at which it goes beyond the universities, into media,

into at least here in Canada, parts of our union labor movement. I define anti-Semite who's somebody who hates Jews too much. Yeah, it's very prophetic comment. But I don't see the basis of anti-Semitism other than ignorance. You have to educate these people. The way you deal with ignorant people is you have to educate them. Education is the solution.

but it takes a long time and people are impatient. Do you think, Leon, that anti-Semitism is unfortunately the one tolerated prejudice? Let's be frank about it. I mean, it's out there. It's widespread. A lot of people seem to be comfortable expressing views where if it wasn't, if the source of their anger and outrage wasn't Jews, let's say it was another community, they would be called out for it. But for some reason, when it comes to the Jews, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Why is that? I guess I'd call penis envy. We're successful, we're motivated people. We've done a lot. You tend to identify underdogs, non-achievers. So the Jews of 100 years ago today are the Asians who are being discriminated against by schools, by limiting acceptance levels, etc. So, you know, we've got to deal with the world as it is, and we've got to do what's right. Hopefully in the end, good triumphs over evil.

There's no basis for anti-Semitism. Here, here. The Jews are first responders to any crisis around the world. They've been very generous. You know, the Jews have been extremely generous with their treasure. Why, in spite of all that generosity, all that, frankly, amazing work the Jews did to integrate into society when they were excluded from mainstream society by, let's face it, mainly white Protestant dominant culture here in North America, despite going all those lengths to be givers,

not takers. I think it's changing, but it's changing at a very glacial pace. And right now, a lot of the unhappiness in the country stems some income disparity, which has nothing to do with the Jews, because people are very unhappy. That's the only way you can explain the popularity of Donald Trump. A happy country does not elect Donald Trump. A happy country does not have somebody like Donald Trump as a leader in the polls by a lot. Yeah.

What's your take on Biden economics? Bidenomics, as it's called, a lot of deficit spending. In 2016, I wrote in Mitt Romney for president. I wouldn't vote for Clinton. I would not vote for Trump. In 2020, because I had such a negative view, of Trump, I voted for Biden. I would not vote for Biden in 2024, you know, for a lot of reasons. He's an economic illiterate. And, you know, the truth is I don't blame him for our fiscal

situation. He took a difficult situation and made it worse. You know, he just wants to give out money at every turn. And that is probably my biggest concern about the financial markets is the explosion of debt now society. And I think what we're going to experience is something called shrinkflation. About a month ago, I was on it by the New York Yankee organization. I was off the opportunity to throw out an opening pitch ball. And I have, I'm on the injured list, have a torn rotated cuff, but I had my son come down from Manchester Vermont. And I'm proud to say he threw a perfect strike. but basically when I went to the game

I had not been to a ball game in about 30 years I couldn't believe what I saw a bottle of water $6, a hot dog, $8, a pretzel I couldn't believe this a pretzel

$13 for a pretzel and when I grew up in the Bronx there was an old man used to come around with a carriage and a laundry bag full of pretzels and sold them two for a nickel

this was $13. Then in 2017 I bought a Hyundai Genesis. I paid $54,000 for the car. I'm very happy with it. And I was thinking of trading into a 2022, 104,000 sticker price, no discount. I didn't buy the car. And I could afford anything I want. I've been very fortunate in life, but I don't like wasting money. I think the economy's in trouble. We have a deficit, it's 8% of GDP. And you have a president that lies to his teeth. he says the rich people don't pay their fair share.

What he's doing is looking at a wealth tax, not an income tax. You know, the wealthy people pay the majority of taxes in this country. I'm a believer in the progressive income tax structure, and I think rich people should pay more. What we have to do as a nation that's coalesce around the question, what should the maximum tax rate be on wealthy people? Now, if you ask that question of Bernie Sanders, who's a communist, he's not a socialist, he's a communist, he would say 90%.

Elizabeth Warren would say, 70% plus the wealth tax. Paul Krugman in New York Times would say 64%. A guy that I admire and like a black conservative economist by the name is Thomas Sowell. He says in this area of social justice, what is your fair share where someone else has worked for? And I'm willing to work six months for the government, six months to myself. That's a marginal tax rate of 50%. But the trouble with that is if you live in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and California,

you already passed 50%. And so, you know, the idea that the, going to be wealthy people that are pay more in taxes is a myth. We have to get spending under control. What we have to do is size the economy to the likely revenue yield. If we want to put a 50% marginal tax rate, we've got to size the economy to that marginal tax rate. And we're not doing that. We've seen this incredible surge Leon of longer duration bonds yields now in the tenure creeping up to 5%.

I am in a minority view. I don't think interest rates are too high. Prior to the great financial crisis of 2008, the 10-year U.S. government bond yielded in line with nominal GDP. Nominal that's the summation of real and growth and inflation. I believe nominal GDP in the third quarter was 8.5%. Okay. If inflation is 3 to 4%, then you're trying to get 2% real growth, basically the 10-year would not be undivated at a 5% or 6% yield. I said a year ago on TV, and I went a different program than yours, I said that Mr. Powell and Lee Kuhumman have no idea how high rates have to go to stem economic growth. There's no signs that these rates are dealing a problem with the economy, you know, and I think that you're starting to see the stock market react, and maybe that's to be getting signs. But I think rates, to me, are uninteresting at these levels.

I would not buy a bond. I find many more attractive stocks in the bond. Now, if you're talking two-year treasury, it's a different story. That's cash substitute. Yeah. Do you think that it's the high rates or reflection of high deficits? A lot of deficit spending is on interest payments. It's a kind of giant washing machine, isn't it, Leon?

We're cycling money out of... Well, that would be the case if we were Japan. Japan has a much higher level of debt. in low level of interest rates because they're self-financed their deficit. We're dependent upon a lot of external capital to finance that deficit. When I grew up in the business, there used to be the terms crowding out, you know, and we don't hear about crowding out anymore. Jay Powell, his recent luncheon talk, the New York Economic Club, said,

I think maybe it's the first time at least I've heard a Fed governor come out and just say it as it is. the U.S. federal debt is on an unsustainable path. I agree with that. I also hold him accountable, you know, in a lot of respects. He kept interest rates artificially low for a decade. In that period, on a few occasions, he said the stock market was not overvalued, given where interest rates were. He never bothered telling people the interest rates had no business being at zero.

And then he abruptly raised rates, 500, 600 basis points in a matter of every year. He stabilized the system. So he was too accommodative for a long time. I would say he's too restricted, but the speed with which he rose rates is destabilizing the system. Are you concerned, Leon, that we could see a financial accident? I mean, you look at the United Kingdom last autumn when rates went up quickly, there was a kind of crisis in their pension system. I've made my money being a bull on America. And I think long term I would be bull. But I would say that we have degenerated ourselves into a system of leadership at a crisis. And we will get leadership, intelligent leadership in America.

We have a crisis. But financial markets don't discount a crisis. And you can see plenty out there that could be a crisis. And fiscal policies is one of them. If you took all the money away from the wealthy people, you still wouldn't deal with a budget deficit. Yeah. Are you concerned about energy, Leon, the extent to where, which we've had a series of policies now that have constrained energy.

In fact, along two Canadian oil and gas companies, I like Paramount resources quite a bit, I like Tourmaline quite a bit. But I would say that if we had intelligent energy policies in America, we would probably see energy prices drop and not go up. But, you know, there's enough uncertainty in the world, I think, these stock prices discounted about a $65 oil. and the odds are will stay well above that for the feasible future. There is a kind of feeling, Leon, isn't there a bit of the 1970s right now?

You live through that period. You know, an inflation scare, social polarization, political polarization, a war maybe, let's hope. But it might, let's hope not, but it might be a regional war in the Middle East. High energy prices. I mean, are we, is this a repeat of the 70s that we're living through right now? I hope not. It's possible. I hope not. But, you know, I've always said over the years that every recession soothes the seeds for next economic recovery and every economic recovery that soes the seeds for the next recession. So we've been through an economic expansion for a long time. I think we borrowed from the future. We have improper fiscal and monetary policies. And I said a year ago on TV that I had a dream. The dream, like the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh had a dream,

and his dream was interpreted by Joseph in the Bible, and his dream was, we were going to have seven lean years following the seven fat years. And I'm not making a seven-year forecast, but I believe the market is not going up for a long time because I think price-slingings ratios are too high. When I look at the world, I don't think the market was just telling you at 18-19-time earnings,

the service to be selling at 18-19-time earnings. We've had a, like I said, inappropriate fiscal monothea policies. We've pulled demand forward. The equi risk premium is very low at under 100 basis points. And we have two bad choices in our election coming up, bad and worse. It's very interesting. And France, they're demonstrating because they want to lower the retirement age from 65, 62 and a half. And in America, we have an 80-year-old president who,

wants to be reelected theoretically. I think in the end he'll drop out, and I hope that Trump drops out voluntarily. Are you concernedly on that over the last period of time, governments, the Federal Reserve, seem to always have an inclination to intervene. They don't like, as you say, the resetting of asset prices, that natural corrective process that recessions bring about, which, as you correctly point out, often sets the stage for a new wave of growth, companies are created, old incumbent companies that are no longer particularly productive, are displaced. It seems like we're kind of bogged down. We have this attitude that intervention must be constant. It is required. There's the so-called Fed put. Where are you at on that?

Let me take it take its course. Let's get our house in order. Let's get a good centrist in charge of government and do intelligent things. Probably too rational for the world to accept. I'm a centrist in nature. That's why I wrote a Mitt Romney. I thought it would have been a good president. He correctly pointed out that our enemy was Russia. And Obama, I think, pooh-pood him.

Yeah, no, that was a prophetic. Let me just think that between the price of oil or the feds tightening or QT or the dollar reverses. the upside, one of these four factors are likely to cause a recession in 2024, and the market is not found in the bottom yet. And that doesn't mean we can't rally. I actually think there's many, many interesting stocks in the market. People talk about the market as like it's a monolith. It's not. You know, first question I asked myself, what's a bare market? A bare market is a period time when more stocks are declined in rising, the decline in less, or about a year, which

economically justified, and the average stock dropped 20, 25%. But that definition, the vast bulk the market has already experienced the bear market. Now, the market is down this year if you take out the sanctity seven. But you know, Leon, most people now like to invest in indexes. They don't want to do the hard work of picking stocks. When they start losing money, they'll stop investing in index. Free money into an index is like looking to the future through a rearview mirror. Yeah. Yeah.

So you mentioned some energy companies that you're investing in. What other parts of the economy do you like right now? I have a very diversified portfolio. I have 40 holdings in my family office. I tend to be long-term oriented. I own alphabet. I own Microsoft. I own Apollo run by Mark Rowan.

They've done a great job for me. I've owned Cigna in healthcare. I've owned Mr. Cooper in the mortgage area. I have other energy companies like energy transfer, you know, enterprise products to MLPs that yielding about 9%. And a secure dividend. There are plenty of things you could do in the market. I would say in terms of assets, my least favor is a long-term bond. and I would have a combination of stocks and a certain amount of cash.

And how much cash you hold is a function of your comfort level. Yeah, that's a great insight. And I have to ask, what do you think of cryptocurrencies? They've had a tough run these last few years after the pandemic. They say if you don't understand crypto, that means you hold. I'm over 80. I don't understand it. I have no exposure to it.

I don't know if Charlie Munger is right when he says he's rat poison. Warren Buffett says, all the crypto in the world would not be worth $25. I'm not sure that they're right. I think blockchain technology is very real, but I think crypto and Bitcoin are fads that are likely to go away. But that's not an intelligent, well-research view. What's your advice to young people these days? The only way to be successful in this competitive world is to do what you love and love what you do. I get up every day in Short Hills, New Jersey, at 5, 10 in the morning, and got into my New York office at 6.45.

And basically, I was always out every night of the week, at a very talented wife. We dated on weekends. We're mad at 59 years. And you cannot work at the pace you have to work at unless you enjoy what you do. So you don't go into a field to make a lot of money. You go into a field, but you have an aptitude for it. So figure out what you're good at, figure out what interests you, and pursue that with a the commitment of excellence.

Are you concerned Leon about some of these attitudes around work that we're seeing amongst younger age groups, this idea that you don't work to live, you quote, live to work. What's your sense on young people's attitudes about work today? I kept on reading that 30 to 40 percent of the youngsters in this country think socialism is refer to capitalism. They don't have a clue. The capitalistic system is the most successful system in the world. Sure, we can improve it through education, as I mentioned, but it's better than any other system out there. That's why I wrote the book. And do you think that's a message that young people are going to come to on their own? Is it, you know, how do people learn those

self-evident truths, you know, that generally a freer economic order gives you more choice. It allows you to live a life that you decide as opposed to a life that someone would decide for you. It seems like there's a lot of confusion these days. I would guess that on the progress on the left, you know, as the economy deteriorates, they'll see that they're backing the wrong horse and there'll be a change. It may take a while. You know, the pendulum swings excessively in both directions. I think the popularity progresses stems from the income disparity.

You can deal with that in a number of ways. You can give out benefits, or you can give people an environment where they could work for those benefits. I prefer to teach people out of fish and not give them fish. I spent $50 million to send a thousand kids to college in Newark, New Jersey. It's called the Cuban College Scholars. That's a better idea than trying to give fish away. That's a great insight and what a great thing to do to, as you say, give people an education that they might. Very fortunate. I looked into this thing very carefully. Seven years ago, I gave $25 million to send 500 kids to college.

And when I looked into it, I found that in Newark, New Jersey, 35% of high school graduates went to college, but only 5% graduated. And I told them, I said, I'm not giving this kind of money for 5% graduation rate. Well, they gave me a 73% graduation rate. Trinkle Morgan did a great job and running the program. I gave them a second $25 million. And think about it, the average lifetime earnings of a college graduate is well over a million dollars more than a non-college graduate, plus you're changing the whole trajectory of their life. See, it's life-changing. So I'm big on education and big on health care.

Great. Do you fund causes in Israel, Leon? Is that part of your philanthropic? It's been a million dollars to Israel last week. A hundred thousand was, again, David, you know, the Ambulish Society where I basically met a challenge by Michael Bloomberg, who I think is a fabulous human being, a good Jew, but a great American, who's done wonderful things with his wealth. His wealth is self-achieved. Now, I've been been a registered independent politically for, I don't know, ever since I couldn't vote. And when he ran for president, I switched to the Democratic Party. And regretably, he famed out, flamed out much too quickly.

She allowed Elizabeth Warren to beat him up. He shouldn't have. He should have been better prepared that he was. But it wasn't destined for him anyway because how can a man of immense wealth be the leader of a party that basically despises wealth? If you look out into 2024, you mentioned earlier in a sense two bad choices potentially facing Americans, Trump and Biden. Many Americans would like a third option. Do you think it's going to be just inevitable that it will come down to a decision between these two candidates?

Do you have any hope of a surprise? I hope not I had dinner with Chris Christie the other day. and I like what he had to say. I like what Nikki Haley has to say. I liked Mike Pompeo quite a bit, but he dropped that very early on. I'm just looking for a good centrist. I don't want radical right.

I don't want radical left. I'm very negative on Trump. I believe that DeSantis, I'm a Florida resident, is also dangerous because he's an educated version of Donald Trump. I want a centrist. Did you know Trump in New York circles? Did you know, in a sense, the mistake that America and Americans were making when they elected him president in 2016?

I understood. That's why I didn't vote for him. Yeah. I actually did it with him in the White House. He was a very gracious host. But he said some things that I just totally disagree with. first thing he said was basically he asked if I thought Amazon was a monopoly and I told oh I could buy the internet any retail in the country you have quick delivery they store

your credit card information to have competitive prices and America if you have a better mousetrap you win he didn't like the answer he asked the exact same question a minute later he had the same answer that he moved on and he said two things which very revealing one thing he said was I've been in the cover of Time magazine with anybody in history. Now, why a man in that position has to say something like that is beyond me, and it's not even remotely true. I googled

it, and he was, at that time, he was in the cover maybe six or seven times. There were a bunch of religious and political figures on materially more. And he also said, I just got back from Saudi Arabia. They love me. Not that they love America, they love me. They put six football fields of marble on the ground, covered with red carpet,

and they love me. It's been a half a billion dollars in my visit. Not that they love I love me. So he's insecure. I guess it's a sociological term to describe his behavior. I think people that support him are making a big mistake because he's taking their money. He's living off it. Leon, you've been very generous with your time.

So just a last question is this conflict in the Middle East unfolds over the days and weeks to come. What do you think people can do to help? what can the average person out there do to kind of to make a difference to somehow push the world into a better place? Well, I think we have to be supportive of our ally, Israel. We have to be supportive of what's going on in Ukraine. And we all have to chip in and pay a little bit more in taxes. And the government has got to spend their money more wisely than they're spending it.

You can tax with all the wealth of the wealthy people and not deal with the problem, it's a spending problem. Simpson-Bowell's commission dealt with this many years ago, and they were spot on. And what's going to happen is what they predicted would happen, but we did nothing about it because the politicians always want to kick the can down the road. It's not a Biden mistake. It's not a Trump mistake. It's a mistake of Republicans and Democrats.

You know, when Trump was president, it was a trillion-dollar deficit in a fully-employed economy, and Biden had just spent money left and right looking to buy votes. this forgiving of student loan debt and stuff like that. It's a blatant attempt to buy votes. Listen, you get the good word out and hopefully we'll survive. Warren Buffett says nobody got rich being short America and hopefully that's the right thing. We are the tallest midget or the other way of saying it. Here's in the land of the blind the one I made is king.

Well, Leon, thank you so much for coming on the program today, your philanthropy, your book, everything to do, you're just willingness to be a public person and have conversations with people and share your years of wisdom. Your considered views and opinions is greatly appreciated and doubly so by our audience. My pleasure. I'm a great beneficiary who have been born in America. Yeah. Here, here. Thank you, sir. We'll really appreciate this opportunity to talk with you. With that wraps up today's dialogue. I want to thank our guest, Leon Cooperman. certainly given us a lot to think about if you have feedback or reflections on what you've just heard on this or any of our podcasts. Please send us an email to podcast at monkdebates.com.

That's MUNK DebateswithanS.com. Also a friendly reminder that our monk debate on liberalism, the crisis of liberalism, is coming up in just a few days. Friday, November 3rd, 7 p.m. Eastern, it'll be live streaming on our website, triple W monk debates.com. Click there for details on how you can participate in the debate virtually and contact the Roy Thompson Hall box office. Maybe one or two rush tickets left for anyone under the age of 25 were offering those tickets to young people for a special student-only discount, quote, the promotional code MD20. Again, that promotional code MD20 via the Roy Thompson Hall box office, and we'll see you

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