The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Dialogue with Yossi Klein Halevi: for Israel, this is a war of necessity

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

It’s been two months since Hamas’s surprise attack on Israel that killed 1200 people, took 240 hostage, and shook the country to its core. October 7th was a day that not only altered the course of Israeli history, but also has forced Israelis to re-examine their relationship to their Palestinian neighbours, and their ability to rebuild a thriving democracy in one of the most hostile regions in the world. To understand the story of Israel post October 7th, we’re joined by Yossi Klein Halevi. Yossi is a best-selling author, a senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, and a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.   The host of the Munk Debates is Rudyard Griffiths   To sign up for a weekly email reminder for this podcast, send an email to [e-mail].   To support civil and substantive debate on the big questions of the day, consider becoming a Munk Member at https://munkdebates.com/membershipMembers receive access to our 15+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, newsletter and ticketing privileges at our live events. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue - https://munkdebates.com/ Senior Producer: Ricki GurwitzEditor: Kieran Lynch  Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You don't help the poor by making everybody poorer. The media has a frame, and the frame is Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians are the oppressed. I shouldn't be forced to acknowledge my privilege unless I desire for that to be part of my interaction with somebody else. What I know to be true and what all of my fellow Gen Z know to be true is that this is the most talented generation yet. With respect to every indicia of disadvantage, there is still a racial hierarch. And though I am, of course, in Anglo, I'm certainly not a fucking Saxon. Hi, Monk listeners. Roger Griffiths here, your host and moderator.

Welcome to this, our continuing conversations called The Monk Dialogues. These are in-depth questions and answers with some of the world's sharpest minds and brightest thinkers. On each monk dialogue, we go deep into the big issues and ideas that are transforming our world and shaping the public conversation. It's now been two months since Hamas's surprise attack on Israel that killed 1,200 people and took over 240 hostage into Gaza. It's an event that shook Israel to its core and it will alter the trajectory of Israeli history by forcing the country to re-examine their relationship to their Palestinian neighbors and their ability to sustain a thriving democracy in a part of the world not known for. personal and collective freedoms. To understand the story of Israel after October 7th, we're joined by Yossi Klein-Halevi.

Yossi is a best-selling author, a senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, and a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Yosey, welcome to the Monk Dialogues. But to be back with you, thank you. Very different circumstances than our previous conversation with you this year. I think the most important thing, Yossi, that you might

begin with to help our audience is for them to better understand the kind of intensity of feeling and unity of spirit that is pervading Israel at this moment. And one of the things that I've heard you comment on that kind of powerfully brought all of this home to me was what's happening at the funerals for fallen IDF soldiers, what you're seeing in terms of a public response, a national response. Let's start there, because I think it's part of this, what I want to do with you today, which is to unpack just how remarkable the mood and the moment is in Israel right now.

We really haven't seen anything like this unanimity, Israel is a constantly divided society. The last time I was on with you, we were talking about the democracy movement protesting against Netanyahu. And so we pivoted from one of the low points in national solidarity, which was just before the massacre of October 7th, to one of the high points in our solidarity. And if you're asking about the soldiers, I think that is a good place to understand where Israel's at today. Because in the past, military casualties were unbearable for Israeli society.

Everyone relates to a fallen soldier as if it's our own child. And we, increasingly, we've had a very low tolerance for military casualties. And very different from the early years in Israel, which were much more stoic. And what's happened since the massacre is that we've in some ways returned to that spirit of stoicism and realize we have no choice. And I think that what I feel at these funerals is that there's a sense of purpose that Israelis feel, which we hesitated to say

until October 7th, which is that when a soldier falls in defense of the country, it has meaning. That kind of rhetoric became more and more thin over the years. But it's back in a very robust way. And you have to understand how Israelis experienced October 7th. It wasn't only the largest massacre of Israeli civilians in the country's history. It was something much deeper than that. these were Israeli citizens who died in a condition of helplessness.

Many of them with their hands bound behind their backs, burned alive, mutilated, raped. And it's the condition of helplessness that is so deeply offensive to the Israeli ethos. Because what Zionism promised the Jewish people was that it would create a safe refuge. And Israel today is the most dangerous country in the world to be a Jew. There is rising anti-Semitism all over the world. That's certainly true. But nowhere else in the world could one conceive of 1,200 Jews being but butchered and dismembered and another 240 Jews kidnapped and held for ransom.

That happened only here. And so if you want to understand something of the determination of Israeli society in fighting this war and the determination to bring Hamas down, which is as a consensus from left to center to right. And again, we haven't seen this kind of unanimity in Israel in decades. You have to understand how deeply offensive. It's more than offensive. It's an assault on our very rationale.

for existence. And so that also explains why the funerals of soldiers are more bearable now, because these are Israelis who are dying with a gun in their hands. They're not dying in a state of helplessness. And what is so unbearable for the Israeli psyche is the thought that we are in some ways back in the Jewish past. And that's one of the main goals of this war is to ensure that the devastating message of October 7th is undone and the image of the Jew as victim is erased. So well said. So much to unpack with you there. Let me just stick with the funerals for a moment longer because I know you've attended these. You've been with colleagues and others who have lost sons and daughters. in this war. What I understand from listening to you

and from what I can see in Israeli media is the scale, the size of these funerals, there's something much more than simply the tragedy, the grief of a family. These have become national events. I believe you'll see there was one funeral in, I think it was Tel Aviv, that over 30,000 people showed up to,

just in the matter of a few, hours. Maybe tell that story because it's such a powerful one. Well, Israelis tend to react in an especially generous way when what we call a lone soldier who doesn't have family here, who comes from abroad, immigrates to Israel, volunteers for the army. And there are lots of young people in the army. And so a lone soldier died. It was a young woman, and she had no family in Israel. And so thousands of Israelis showed up as her extended family to embrace her, to embrace her, her sacrifice, and her family, who of course came from the States.

And the sense that you're never alone here. And that's fundamental to the Israeli experience. Yeah. And the expressions of grief, you mentioned, you know, the early stoicism of the first kind of leaders and the culture of Israel's founding. While you've seen that kind of return of that, it has a different texture, doesn't at this time, Yossi? Yes, yes.

Soldiers are crying together at these. funerals. People are expressing grief and emotion publicly in a way that it's different. What's going on here? Yeah, the old Israel, the Israel, as you say, of the founders, socialist, austere Israel represented by the communal kibbutz, the ethos then was that it betrays weakness to cry at military funerals. And it was considered a kind of scandal if soldiers would dare to cry. And today, this is such a different Israel. It's so much more of a humane Israel. I know that that's not necessarily the image that Israel has in parts of world opinion. But this is an Israel that allows people to grieve publicly. It's an Israel that embraces grief. And I was at a funeral

where the commander of the fallen soldier was crying. His voice was breaking. And you would have never heard that in the old Israel. It was always, we have to be strong. And that's not the message now. In the early days of the state, I think there was a great deal of anxiety. among Jews about whether Zionism really would succeed in creating a Jew who was capable of defending themselves. And we've proven that. So the anxiety isn't there anymore. Now, it's true that October 7th did temporarily resurrect that anxiety because October 7th was

such a devastating military failure. We failed to protect our own people who were massacred. in our own borders. You know, bear in mind that 50 years ago, Israel sent commandos halfway across Africa to free 100 Israeli hostages at Entebbe Airport who were hijacked. And today, on October 7th, we couldn't save 1,200 of our fellow citizens within the borders of a sovereign Jewish state. So it's true that there is some reemergence of that old anxiety about whether the Jews are really, whether we've really internalized the lessons of self-defense. But what's playing out today in Gaza is that the Army is fighting in a very professional way.

And the morale is something that we haven't seen here for many, many years. People have volunteered for their units even before they were called up. there's something like 150% response of reservist call-ups. The Army doesn't know what to do with all the outpouring of volunteerism. And that, by the way, is being reflected throughout the society and on the home front as well. Something like 50% of Israelis since October 7th have been involved in some form of volunteerism. Now, I don't know of another society that's capable of that, level of commitment. And so something very profound is happening here. And we are really rebuilding

Israeli society. In the last year, many of us felt that it was coming apart. And certainly this government did all it could to undermine the solidarity among Israelis. But what happened after October 7th was there was this grassroots response. And we didn't wait for the government. We mobilized ourselves. And that's the story of Israel post-October 7. Do you think, Yossi, that there's a continuity between the kind of democratic, political upheavals before October 7, the incredible kind of civic energy that was released in response to Netanyahu's so-called judicial reforms, and then this kind of outpouring of national unity and purpose and spirit that's then happened in the last two months. It's a great insight because that's

exactly what happened, Roger. You know, the protest movement instantly pivoted and became a conduit for volunteerism. So, for example, the government not only failed to prevent the October 7th massacre, but in the weeks immediately afterwards, failed to provide minimal social services for the survivors. Those services were provided by the democracy movement, which set up these warehouses for people to donate food and clothes. And the protest movement provided psychological counseling for survivors. It didn't come from the government.

And so what that really tells us is, first of all, what an incompetent, what a disastrous government we have, and what an extraordinary civil society we have. And there was a joke going around saying, when can we start paying taxes to the protest movement? you know, because it really functioned in those critical days after the massacre as a surrogate government. Did you know that you could give the gift to the monk debates this holiday season? That's right. We are offering both our curator and supporter of memberships as charitable gifting opportunities. You can do that right now at our website, Triple W Monk, Munk, MUNK, Debates with an S.com.

click on the join button, go to the bottom of the page and select either a supporter or curator membership. Supporters get access to our entire content library, a complimentary e-book, advanced ticketing privileges to our debates, our Friday Focus podcast, and so much more. If you're feeling especially generous this holiday season, consider conferring curator status on your gifty. That'll give them two guaranteed seats in each and every, Monk Debate at Roy Thompson Hall. You can do this all right now at our website, www.w monkdebates.com. Give the gift of the monk debates this holiday season. Let's shift to having you help us understand a little bit more the Israeli perspective on

the aims of this war, what is trying to be accomplished. And I particularly want to, I want to start with something that I think many people here in Canada and elsewhere either don't understand or struggle to understand, which is this idea of restoring credible deterrence, that what happened, as you said, on October 7th, was a profound kind of failure of security. And it was an event that reaches in its impact deep into the kind of traumas of the Jewish people. And that one of the aims of this war is to ensure that the other bad actors in the neighborhood in which Israel lives understand that replicating the type of attack that Hamas, unfortunately, was able to perpetrate isn't likely to be successful,

won't be successful, and will be met with a response that will create deterrence, will create a ability for Israel to prevent its opponents from, launching these attacks because they know that the consequences that will befall them, as in the case of Hamas, hopefully, will be catastrophic. Can you explain that argument to us? About 15 years ago, the head of Chisbalah, the terrorist group that sits on our northern border in Lebanon, made a speech about the destruction of Israel, envisioning the destruction of Israel. And he used a metaphor, which has haunted many of us in Israel ever since. He compared Israel to a spider web.

And he said that just as a spider web appears to be impenetrable from the outside, when you swipe it, it disintegrates. And he said, that's Israel. What happened to us on October 7th was that we fulfilled Nasrallah's metaphor. We became a spider web. And that has devastating consequences for our long-term ability to survive in one of the most dangerous regions in the world. We are the only non-Arab, non-Muslim state for thousands of kilometers around. And if we do not succeed in projecting a credible military deterrence, we will gradually decline and we will be inviting, as you said, more and more acts of aggression. If Israel allows the perception of October 7th to remain in the Middle East, if we allow

Hamas, which was the weakest of our enemies, and it delivered the most powerful blow that Israel ever received in 75 years of its history, if we allow that perception to remain, then our credibility is shattered. If we allow the genocidal regime that did that massacre to remain on our borders, then October 7th will be the last word. No matter what happens day to day in the coming days in Gaza,

that will be the last word. That will be the lingering impression. Hamas will be able to legitimately claim victory. Now, it's really important to understand what is happening regionally, because in the West, the perception of this conflict is that it's Israel against the Palestinians. Israelis look at this conflict with a kind of a split screen in our heads. One side of the screen is Israel and the Palestinians, and there we are Goliath and the Palestinians are David. But on the other side of the screen, it's Israel and the region.

And there, the balance of power looks very different. And Israel is acutely vulnerable. And so we are not just fighting Hamas. We are fighting Hamas as a proxy of the Iranian alliance, which includes Chisbalah, Syria, Yemen, Iran. And the outcome of this war is going to have very immediate. consequences for the balance of power between Israel and the Iranian axis. So well said. It's important for people really to reflect on Yossi's words here that this is a war of necessity,

not born of vengeance or some desire simply to write a scorecard. It really is about Israel's credible deterrence, its ability to stop. before Hezbollah or some other Iranian proxy, you know, decides to test the spider web, you know, theory once again. Just to take this a little bit further with you, so explain to us what you see is like the pernicious effects on Israeli democracy if Hamas is not removed as a threat. if it is not truly degraded as a military and political force, could democracy and Israel survive in that scenario? It's a really interesting question, and I haven't thought about it until this moment,

but if Hamas prevails, and you have to understand that in the context of this war, Hamas's survival means that it will prevail. It will win simply by surviving, which is why a ceasefire is so lethal for Israel. And if Hamas prevails, the consequences for Israeli democracy, I think, will be severe because it will push more and more people to the far right. They're going, they'll conclude that Netanyahu was too weak, and we need an authentic right. We need a right with backbone. And once you start getting into those waters, it's very dangerous. And the far right is rising in the polls, not dramatically, fortunately, so far. But inevitably, the far right will rise,

because especially in its appeal to young people, we're seeing it happen all over Europe. And for this generation of Israelis, this younger generation, October 7th is the formative event of their lives, of their lives as Israelis. This is going to determine how they look at their country, how they look at their neighbors, how they look at the world. And if we don't come out of this war victorious, it will have a devastating impact on younger Israelis.

And the far right is waiting to reap that discontent. What do you think, Yossi, would do to just Israeli citizens' sense of the social contract? I mean, one of the core tenets of any social contract, especially in democracy, is that, you know, the state is there, to protect, to create the security that allows citizens to exercise their democratic rights. And that in the absence of security, in a state of insecurity, a state of anxiety, where Israeli citizens are thinking maybe Hamas can come back, maybe they can rebuild, Iran will certainly spend time trying to rearm them. What does that do to the very idea of democracy, which was the subject of such, you know,

fierce debate in Israel over the last 12 months that was already showing, arguably, some vulnerabilities vis-à-vis anti-democratic arguments. You know, October 7th was a profound violation of the social contract between Israeli citizens and the state. The people who were massacred on the Gaza border were some of this country's greatest idealists. They moved to Kibbutzim, to these communal agricultural communities. On the border, in part because this was a national, they saw this as a national responsibility.

Somebody had to live on the Gaza border. Somebody had to bear that. We can't all live clustered around Tel Aviv. We can't be in a giant Tel Aviv. ghetto. And so they moved there, many of them, for idealistic reasons. When the army didn't show up for long hours on October 7th and left them to their fate, something basic in the trust of all of us in how this country is governed broke. And the truth is that that trust, had already been broken to some extent in the years leading up to October 7, because the government

didn't succeed in stopping Hamas from firing tens of thousands of rockets into the Gaza communities over the years. Now, most of those rockets were primitive, certainly in those years. They didn't cause that much lethal damage, they created panic. And that was really the purpose of those rockets, that they were weapons of terror. But the government often left the people there to their fate. And October 7th was the culmination of that. And what the army is really trying to do penance for is that tremendous failure. And the army is now trying to prove that it is, is, in fact, capable of protecting our citizens. And so if the war ends inconclusively,

we will be back to where we were on October 8th with a broken social contract. Yeah, I just, for all of fellow democracies around the world, the idea that you can have these associations that are the essence of democracy based on mutualism and trust, in the absence of physical security, I think it's just prima facie wrong. And it suggests to me that this war that Israel is fighting is fighting again is,

is not just about Hamas and destroying an urgent threat and restoring credible deterrence. It's in some ways a struggle for securing the premise, the foundations of Israeli democracy going forward. Let's shift Yossi to some other, I think issues that are North American Western listeners are are kind of struggling with. And the big one, as you know, is the so-called day after. What is the scenario? If Israel, in fact, is successful in removing Hamas as a political and military force,

what does that moment, that shift, that change look like? And particularly, what are your thoughts about where, the prospects of a two-state solution stand in the kind of stark dawn sunrise of that day after? Well, look, I think there are two great shadows hanging over this war, or maybe three shadows. From the Israeli perspective, the first is the fate of the remaining hostages in Hamas hands. The second is the growing number of civilian casualties in Gaza and the enormous suffering that this war is creating in this densely populated, underprotected area. And the third is the day after. So to answer your question about the day after, I mean, what I'm hoping will happen, and it is admittedly a long shot.

is that the countries of the Abraham Accords, the five-hour countries that made peace with Israel, and I would include Saudi Arabia as well, which is hovering around the Abraham Accords. We need, together with Israel, we need to make Gaza, the rehabilitation of Gaza, a project of the peace agreement. And that could really be our first test case.

And I'm saying that I think it's a long shot because, frankly, as long as this government and Israel is in power, there will be no political movement and no concessions, no generosity. And if we're going to ask our countries to invest heavily in Gaza and perhaps even to send soldiers to help secure the area, there's going to need to be some. some willingness on Israel's part to make some gestures to the Palestinians. Now, you ask about a two-state solution. I think it's far too premature to think about resurrecting negotiations. The trust level is at the absolute lowest point it has ever been, certainly on the Israeli side, I imagine, on the Palestinian side as well. And it's frankly inconceivable. No one right now.

talking about a two-state solution. What I, as somebody who does believe in the necessity for ending the occupation, the necessity for Israel, for Israel's future, I'm caught at the place where I've always been, but even more so now, which is on the one hand, I feel that a two-state solution is an existential necessity for Israel, and I feel it's an existential threat for Israel at the same time. What a two-state solution would do would risk importing Gaza and Hamas to the West Bank. The West Bank is Israel's most sensitive border. I'm looking, literally, I'm sitting here in my apartment in Jerusalem, and I'm looking out on the next hill, and that's the West Bank.

I see the lights of a Palestinian village on the next hill, 2,000 meters from where I'm sitting. And so the West Bank isn't somewhere out there. And it's very hard, I think, for Canadians especially, to imagine what it's like living in such geographical and intimacy with your enemies, literally on the next hill. But that doesn't negate the urgent need for Israel to gradually start extricating itself from the occupation. So I don't know how to square the moral imperative

with the security imperative. And that's really Israel's dilemma. It's also Israel's dilemma in terms of civilian casualties. How do you square the need to address the devastation in Gaza with the need to destroy Hamas? And, you know, many of us in Israel use the analogy of ISIS, Hamas is ISIS. And looking at the American war against ISIS and the massive destruction of Maasol and Raqa in the war against ISIS. And as a kind of a precedent, and I believe that that is true.

But it doesn't lessen the urgency of the need to address the humanitarian tragedy. And again, I don't know how do you defeat a terrorist regime that hides in schools, mosques, hospitals. And this war is about denying Hamas immunity. They can't play those games anymore. The consequences are terrible. And that is an expression of Israel's immediate dilemma in Gaza, but it's an expression of our much larger political dilemma in terms of a Palestinian state. Is it fair to say, Yossi, that, you mean, you mentioned Iran before, you know, one could see an argument where a separate Palestinian state or something.

Some enhanced Palestinian entity is created in the West Bank. Yet Iran is there. Iran will once again see an opportunity to gazify, to Hamasify the West Bank. They're already doing this with groups like Islamic Jihad in the West Bank, a growing Hamas presence there, public opinion polls. give them what credence you want, probably not a lot, but they do seem to show rising support for Hamas in the West Bank. So I just, I wonder, Yossi, if the solution to all of this isn't, in a sense, in Tehran, that there is, there has to be not only potentially a change with the partners of the Abrahamic Accords,

but some serious international pressure beyond what's been exos, to date to present Iran with a clear choice. Either it becomes a regional player that exercises some minimum responsibility vis-a-vis the Palestinian people, Israel, and its other Arab nations, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, then there has to be a consequence for it greater simply than a sanctions regime that to date has worked with mixed success. Look, that's a crucial point because the root of the ongoing war, it's not the root of the conflict, but the root of the violent expression of the conflict today is Iran. And we're experiencing that on multiple fronts. Iran today controls five Arab countries, either directly or as in Lebanon, or by proxy.

And so without neutralizing the Iranian threat, I don't believe that we could have real movement on the Palestinian front, certainly not a solution. That doesn't preclude Israel working together with its Arab allies to try to figure out how do we gradually improve conditions, How do we gradually ease the occupation? And I think that that's essential.

And I believe that that has to begin the morning after this war. Again, we're not going to be able to do anything precipitously. We have to be careful every step of the way. We have no margin for error. That's what October 7th proved. If we lower our guard, the unthinkable can happen here again and again. And so we're not going to endanger our security, but I believe that there are measures that we can take together with the Gulf states and the Saudis that can try to move us in a better direction. Final question, Yossi, it's a big one, but let's hear you on it.

I mean, wars are often watersheds. We can think back through many of the big wars of the 20th century, and they become moments where nations pivot, where there are fundamental changes that unfold. If you were to think of Israel five years forward from now, what could some of those fundamental changes be for the Israeli nation? How would we see Israel if we met it as a, you know, the proverbial friend that we know it to be walking down the street? How many it looked different to us five years from now?

My sense is that Israel, the morning after the war, is going to take a hard look at this last year, which was the worst year in Israel's history, and ask itself a very hard question, which is. how did we get to the point where we actually experienced two scenarios for the destruction of Israel? The first was over this last year, which was a kind of an internal disintegration, where Israeli society was so deeply divided against itself that it was almost inconceivable that we would ever be able to come together again, which is why this moment is so present. as hard as that sounds. For Israeli society, this is a moment of reconstruction. This is a moment of healing from the deep divisiveness of the last year. And so the first question we need to ask ourselves is, how did we allow ourselves to get to the point where we were nearly on the verge of a civil

war here, which is one scenario for a kind of destruction. The second scenario happened on October 7th, which is an external assault, Israel in total chaos, our much vaunted army nowhere to be seen, citizens left on their own. That's another scenario, a very different scenario, for Israel's destruction. That's always been the nightmare vision of our enemies overrunning our borders.

And we now know that that can happen, and in fact did happen in microcosm, but nevertheless, we have these two scenarios, two nightmare scenarios. And I believe that what we're going to be doing in the next few years is trying to figure out how do we never find ourselves in those two situations again. And that first, that's what the Army is doing now. And the Army is in an active state of, of real, rebuilding, and there will be tremendous turnovers, an entire generation of commanders are going to

have to leave. There will be consequences here. Politically, the same thing will happen. This government will fall. There is no question about it. Netanyahu is finished. I've said that for the last four years, but it's really, if he, God forbid, if he survives this, than he really is Houdini, you know, the greatest game artist. And I don't believe he is. But more deeply, because in the end, it's not about any one person or even anyone, any government. It's about how Israeli society deals with its deep divisions. We are a society with multiple fault lines, religious, secular, east-west, Arab-Israeli,

Jewish-Israeli, left and right. The divisions that we're carrying here, I think, would challenge the intactness of societies far more powerful, far larger than us. And we are going to have to think of how do we navigate these differences in a better way than we did, certainly over the last year. Well, you see, we did exactly what I hoped we would in this conversation, which is provide a North American audience with a kind of an authentic and informed view of how Israel and Israelis are thinking at this moment on so many of the kind of critical issues that are top of mind to all of us. So thank you so much for your wisdom and insights today. It's always a pleasure to talk and just thinking of you, thinking of all your fellow citizens there. Many of us here

in Canada are strong supporters of Israel. And we hope that the coming weeks and months will see Israel through this difficult time to brighter hills, sunnier uplands in the months and years to come. Well, very grateful to you for this conversation and it always is a pleasure to be with you. Well, that wraps up today's dialogue.

I want to thank our guest, Yossi Klein-Halevi, for a terrific conversation. Certainly gave me a lot to think about. We'd love your reaction and feedback to this episode of the Monk Dialogues. Please send us your comments, your thoughts, suggestions, and ideas to podcast at monkdebates.com. Also a friendly reminder that if you're enjoying the monk debates coverage of current affairs and contemporary events,

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