The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Members-Only Pod: Episode 2

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

This is a sample of the Munk Members-Only Podcast. To access the full length episode consider becoming a Munk Member. Membership is free. Simply log on to www.munkdebates.com/membership to register. Under your membership profile page you will find a link to listen to the full length editions of Munk Members Podcast. The Munk Members Podcast provides a focused, half-hour masterclass on current events with Janice Gross Stein, the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and bestselling author. Rudyard Griffiths, Chair of the Munk Debates, is the podcast moderator. Janice and Rudyard unpack the big issues in the news and drill down into the people, events and trends that are shaping our lives in this extraordinary moment. The full length episode digs into three big stories in the news this week — the impeachment of Donald Trump; is this in the interest of Biden Administration or will it present a possibly fatal distraction for the new administration in its first 100 days — the China-Germany investment agreement; why did Merkel do a trade deal with Xi Jinping? Is the transatlantic relationship dead?— the latest round of lockdowns and what happens next; who is to blame? Governments for their poor handling of the crisis? Citizens for simply not following basic rules? We debate. If you like what the Munk Debates is all about consider becoming a Supporting Member. For as little as $9.99 monthly you receive unlimited access to our 10+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, monthly newsletter, ticketing privileges at our live events and a charitable tax receipt (for Canadian residents). To explore Munk Membership options visit www.munkdebates.com/membership. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, Monk podcast listeners. Rudyard Griffith here, your moderator. The following is a sample of the Monk members-only podcast. To access the full-length episode, consider becoming a Monk member. Membership is free. Simply log on to monkdebates.com forward slash membership to register. Once you're enrolled in a few simple clicks, you can visit your profile page for your membership on our website to find a link to listen to full-length editions of the Monk Members podcast. For those of you who are already Monk members, simply visit your profile on our website. That's your membership profile. And again, you'll see a link that you can click on to access all the full-length editions of the Monk members podcast. Thanks for listening.

Hi, Monk members. Welcome to this, the Monk Debates Members-only podcast, a regular program where we dig into the big issues and ideas in the news each week with our partner, our friend, our guest of the monk debates. Janice Gross Stein. She's a renowned professor of international relations, the founding director of the Monk School of Global Affairs. Janice, always great to have you in communication with our Monk membership. It's such a pleasure for me, Roger, and what a week since we spoke last. Indeed. And again, just to thank our members for all the great feedback on the inaugural Monk members podcast last week, Janice and I are going to continue to do what we did with

that first program, which is to give you a little bit of debate, hopefully some original analysis and insight on the week's events. And Janice, I think we have to start this week, our first topic, the impeachment of Donald Trump. And, you know, is this really in the interest of the United States, of its political culture, of its democracy? Is this what America should be doing now? Or Janice, is this potentially a fumble, a mistake, an impulse to kind of pursue the politics of revenge at a moment when America should be turning the page on the Trump? What's your take? This is a really tough one because there's no doubt the United States is in the middle

of an emergency, frankly, a national emergency given the level of deaths and the number of cases and the overwhelmed states that are trying to deal with this. So normally you would duck this ball, you would not engage. However, we are getting horrific pictures and interviews record coming out of what happened last week. The confrontation was far more violent than we at first thought. Capital police were targets. Many felt their lives were at risk. It was a matter of minutes, frankly, as they fought to hold the line.

and behind them other police moved Congress people and senators into tunnels. This was a violent crowd, really shocking and a near mess. It is almost impossible politically, given the experiences that many of these people had, they were locked down, cowering under chairs, scared to death, frankly, that they would be overwhelmed, politically impossible. to stop the Congress from moving to impeach. But let's talk about whether this is in the interest. I mean, I get it.

I understand when, you know, someone breaks into your house, it gets personal. And that's why these legislators, including some Republicans, interestingly, joining to support Democrats' calls for a second impeachment. But what I wonder, Janice, what I worry about is, you know, the Biden presidency has that first hundred days, that magical kind of honeymoon period to push through a, legislative agenda. And instead of having 100 days of new policies and new programs and new direction, we're going to have weeks. And I think it will take weeks of Donald Trump holding on making, you know, wild arguments, wild claims, commanding the political attention, the media

attention that only he can command. I just see this as a tactical error, a huge tactical error on the part of the Democrats and the Biden administration to pursue at this time. Am I wrong? No, you're not completely wrong, but you're not right either in this sense that this will sidetrack the new Congress. It will deflect attention from the new president's agenda. One of the ways they might deal with this, and this is under discussion, Rudyard, is to delay moving the article of impeachment forward.

until all the nominees of the Biden administration are confirmed. That's a possibility as well because they're concerned. There's no question. Even Mitch McConnell, who I think secretly supports this because this is a way to rid the Republican Party of Donald Trump, and he doesn't have to wear it. He is so skillful, is open to a negotiation on how this all gets managed. But let's take it up a level and grapple with your question.

Is this in the interests of the United States? Do you allow a president who engages in this kind of behavior very close to a legal definition of incitement? Do you allow him to walk away with impunity? Do you, in fact, legitimate a president tacitly supporting an insurrection against his own state and his own government? What message does that send forward about a rule of law and a republic? You know, I take that point. I guess I see, though, a path here for Trump and the Trump movement to use the impeachment debate as a kind of martyrdom of this president, of his ideas. This is going to drive a wedge into the American body politic that will last adjourn.

generation. And I think for the short-term gain for the, you know, the nod to virtue to the better angels of our nature, the U.S. is going to create a situation where there will be millions of Trump voters who will feel that, you know, whatever, it's a parallel universe, Janice. We know this. They will feel that this was concocted. It was set up to ensure that he could never run for federal office again, because if you are impeached, you are denied the opportunity to hold any federal office. And this will become another millstone around the neck of political grievance that is dragging the United States into the risk of some period of secular decline. I think that grievance, those parallel universes that you're describing, Richard,

they're there already. Impeachment doesn't really do. deep in it. They're there already because those millions of Trump supporters believe the election was stolen. They believe that voting was fraudulent. They believe that Congress people covered that up. They believe this president was legitimately denied a second term. Whether he's impeached or not, that doesn't go to the heart of what is enraging these people. So that awful... Yes, yes, but remember, those issues that you just itemized, which are important and are part of that grievance amongst the Trump wing of the American electorate, those are in the past. What impeachment does is it sets up a grievance in the future. It sets up a reality that he cannot run for re-election in 2024. It decapitates

their political movement. And it looks like, I mean, I'm not going to put on a tinfoil hat here, But if I'm one of, you know, a Trump loyalist supporter in Texas or Arkansas or wherever, you pick your red state, it looks like the elites have once again rigged the system to create an outcome that is in their direct interest to perpetuate that elite-driven, bi-coastal, you know, cabal that organizes America around its interests, which are antithetical to those of the Trump voter. You know, again, if we think about what 2024 will look like, because that's really what you're talking about, I have to say, given that maniacal performance in Washington last week by this president, and it was maniacal. He was disconnected from the consequences of what he was doing. So some violent attack on Washington since we and the Brits burned Washington down in 1812. I mean, let's understand the magnitude of this. I think it is in the interests of the Republic that the individual who did this not run for office. But let's talk about the millions and millions of Trump loyalists, those people who believe the system was rigged.

And they believe that because he told them over and over this election was stolen. They're absolutely convinced and nothing is going to change their mind. There are others inheritors of the Trump tradition here who are going to pick up that, mantle and charged with it over the next four years. So these, the Trumpists, the Trump movement is not gone, regardless of what happens to Donald Trump, whether it's Donald Trump Jr., whether it's Ted Cruz, there's a number of people who are going to organize this group. And I think one really interesting possibility to watch here, I think the Republican Party is going to be riven with conflict. it survives as a single party, I think that's up for grabs. So the Trumpists are here. They are with us for

four years, even if this man never runs for public office again. Good point. I just want to remind our monk members, we had a terrific one-on-one debate podcast this week, David from, author, Trump critic debating 2016 Trump advisor, Stephen Moore, the resolution, be it resolved, the survival of the Republican Party requires a clear break or irrevocable break from Trump and Trumpism. You can get that debate on our website and on our podcast feed. Thanks for listening to this sample of the Monk members podcast. To access the rest of this episode and to become a regular subscriber of the full-length editions of the Monk member pod, consider joining our community at monkdebates.com

forward slash membership. Again, that URL, Monk Debate. com forward slash membership membership is free and for those of you who are already members thank you for being part of our community and supporting civil and substantive public debate