The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Members-Only Pod: Episode 29

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

This is a sample of the Munk Members-Only Podcast. The program provides listeners with a focused, half-hour masterclass on the big issues, events and trends driving news and current events. The show features Janice Gross Stein, the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and bestselling author, in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths, Chair and moderator of the Munk Debates. This week's Munk Members podcast digs into two big stories in the news this week: The Chinese ride hailing app DiDi finds itself in hot water with China's communist government after it lists on U.S. stock exchange – Why is the Chinese government cracking down on domestic tech companies bent on attracting foreign capital? What does DiDi's fate say about the future of big data in an era of growing great power competition been China and America?; On the heels of Biden-Putin summit which promised joint cooperation on ransomware attacks the US is hit twice in one week by cyber intrusions coming from Russia – How will the Biden administration respond? Are we on the verge of dangerous escalation of state originated cyber attacks?; and we conclude the program with a discussion of what these two stories say about the future of the Internet – Are we living through the disintegration of the World Wide Web as we know it? To access the full length episode consider becoming a Munk Member. Membership is free. Simply log on to www.munkdebates.com/membership to register. Under your membership profile page you will find a link to listen to the full length editions of Munk Members Podcast. If you like what the Munk Debates is all about consider becoming a Supporting Member. For as little as $9.99 monthly you receive unlimited access to our 10+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, monthly newsletter, ticketing privileges at our live and online events and a charitable tax receipt (for Canadian residents). To explore you Munk Membership options visit www.munkdebates.com/membership. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, Monk podcast listeners. The following is a sample of the Monk members-only podcast. To access the full-length edition of this episode and all of our regular Monk members-only podcasts, go to our website, www.W. Monk Debates.com and register for membership. Membership is free, and it's available for you right now at www.munkdebates.com. Hope you enjoy the program. Hello, Monk members. Rudyard Griffiths here, your host and moderator. Welcome to this, our usual Friday monk members podcast where we delve into the big issues and ideas in the news.

Hopefully leave you with some original insight and analysis to help us through all of this. We're exceedingly fortunate to be joined each week by Janice Gross Stein. She's the founding director, the Monk School of Global Affairs, a internationally renowned scholar and author. And Janice, always such a privilege to be in dialogue with you. So great to be with you, Rudyard, and I had the pleasure of meeting some Monk members in person outside. So I've had a long conversation about what we were talking about. So we are in the height of summer where we actually get to see some people in person. That's right.

And we're still working on that Monk members live recording of this podcast in September. We'll bring some news to you on a month. our plans for that event. I think double vaccinated should be a requirement, don't you, Janice? I do. We're going to get to that this week. I do. So let's kick off, though, with the big international news story that we're all looking forward to next week, which is the Olympics. We're going to have a pandemic Olympics in Tokyo, Japan, a real, in a sense nail-biter putting this together. it was previously canceled, being staged at immense expense, mind-boggling numbers, $25 billion, and counting, no one in the audience, athletes putting the medals on themselves.

Jettis, what's your take on the Olympics? There's, you know, as these events roll around every four years, there's, you know, some reflection as to whether this is an institution that actually, I don't know, reflects who we are as a people, the 21st century, our best values and attributes. Where do you come down on the Olympics? I think the Olympics, as they're currently organized, Rudyard, we have passed their best before date, frankly. They need a rethink, and nothing makes it clear

than this mind-boggling extravaganza, as you said, in Tokyo. which is in the middle of a COVID spike. And huge parts of the city are locked down. And in the middle of this, they are going to get between 85,000 to 100,000 people coming into the heart of the city, walled off, tested literally morning and night at a mind-boggling price. And what is this really about, Rudyard? it's about television rights. It's about the money that gets made, not through ticket sales anymore,

but through television, which allegedly goes to finance amateur athletics. But there has got to be a better way than the way we're currently doing it. I agree, Janice. You know, we talk a lot on this show about how this pandemic is kind of changed, changing people's expectations about government, about big institutions.

And it seems that the Olympics, the IOC, has just been remarkably tone deaf through this whole experience. And I think it, I don't need to give the examples. I'm sure our listeners are aware of them. It seems to go, though, to the fundamental reality that this is an institution with very little, if any, accountability. It's been run over the course of its 125 years by, guess what, seven white men. It has a board of 100 odd individuals from, you know, business and finance, including, you know, members of the royalty. I mean, how Janice do we get to this point where

we're kind of, you know, we're not, we're out of the first few decades of the 21st century, Yet you're looking, you're staring at an institution that just seems demonstrically sclerotic. It just seems like it's from a different era. But here it is. It's the biggest sporting event in the world. It's an organization that controls tens of billions of dollars. Why? Well, you know, it's not surprising.

Institutions live on and on and on. We call that the inertia effect. It's often easier to create something new, to start something new, Roger, than it is to reform a well-entrenched institution. But I think you put your finger on the core issue. There is a small, let that 101 board, you know, that's a figly, frankly. There is a small coterie of people who have run the Olympics for decades. They control the decision-making. We know we have a corrupted process of bidding by cities.

I mean, it happens over and over and again. We're not shocked anymore. But getting these people to wake up and say, this is, after all, about sport. It's about amateur sport. It's about a healthy lifestyle. And you are moving 100,000 people into a COVID-stricken country. Tell me how those two pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Now, to be honest, I tuned in this week to watch the Canadians women's soccer team play Japan, so I'm complicit in loving the drama and the excitement. But I think we need a fundamental rethink. First of all, we need to put the Olympics in one country permanently. It has to be a permanent home. If we do that, we cut the corruption and we cut the bidding process. And we cut this stupidity of leaving countries, rich and poor, it doesn't really matter, with a huge overhang of debt for facilities that they build that almost without exception

remain unused and deteriorate because you can't refit them for different purposes. This is just a massive waste on a global scale. You know, bring them back to Greece if that's what we need to do, but put them in one country and build facilities that get reused and maintained so we don't have this kind of just colossal waste anymore. And we cut the corruption by 90% if there's no more bidding process because it's a sham. It's not competitive bidding.

Yeah. I'm just curious, you know, as a political scientist who spent a lot of time looking at organizations and understanding how they evolve or not, why do some get to skate and others don't? You know, I think of organizations that have been literally, you know, upended and completely reworked and kind of torn apart, global institutions. You can look through whole swathes of the United Nations, which have been sub-end. to turmoil. But, you know, here we have a high-profile organization. It's not an organization that's hiding under a rock somewhere. This is incredibly high-profile. It engages, as you say, in serial scandals around corruption. It awards games. It seems to have this proclivity towards authoritarian regimes, China, Russia, you name it. Why does some organizations get a pass? Is it because they're skillful at, you know, wrapping this all up in this veneer of sports and youth and celebrating kind of excellence?

But are we all that, are we really that stupid? Well, you know, it's really an interesting question because it's what you call in the not-for-profit space, right? It's not a private organization and doesn't have a, a corporate board that is accountable as shareholders. And, you know, occasionally we get shareholders' revolts that maintains at least some semblance of accountability. It's not a public institution where officials have to explain themselves or politicians have to explain themselves to the public.

It's in that not-for-profit space. But the truth is, you know, Canadian cities have bid for these Olympics. And even the Olympic bids are expensive. And we, the last time around when Toronto began to get into the fray of preparing an Olympic bid, that was the first time there was an outcry. And people said, no, don't do this. We're going to be left with a whole set of sports stadiums and facilities that are going to be really difficult to repurpose. When that kind of pressure built, where public certs are.

saying to their cities and their provinces and their governments don't pour the money into this kind of effort, that's when we'll get some form. And I think actually we're at that point now. This, I think we're done with competitive bidding now for Olympic Games. So I think we've seen the cycle after this one, and there's going to have to be a change. And you know why, Roger, it's very interesting. They're no bidders. Yes, it's a no bid.

They price themselves. it's an obit. They price themselves out of the market now. It's simply too expensive anymore to be a whole city. Well, my final comment... And the security costs have gone crazy too. I mean, my final comment on this, the kind of writing is on the wall is the news this past week that the Norway's women's beach volleyball team was fined by their kind of federation, the international handball federation. All these federations are funded in substance. subsidized by the IOC for not wearing bikini bottoms because these young women quite realistically said, you know what, we don't really want to wear bikini bottoms. We want to wear practical

attire to play this physical sport. They were all dinged for $177 U.S. They're appealing this. And I got to say, Janice, you know, if we turn on the Olympics here and beach volleyball, requires women to wear bikinis in 2021. Wow. We're in trouble. Well, did I have to ask you, are you going to watch any event on television over the next two weeks? You know, I'm going to watch the track events. I really enjoy the running, middle distance, the marathon.

Wow. You know, those are just truly kind of expressions of kind of human excellence at its best. So I will tune in despite my anger and frustration with the IOC. And women's soccer. I mean, women's soccer is really great at the Olympics. It really is. And we have our champion player, Christine Sinclair, maybe her last go. So as critical as I am, I have to tell you, they're going to be some hours of

find the head over the next two weeks. That's right. You've been listening to a sample of the monk members-only podcast. To access the rest of the episode, consider becoming a member. Membership is free and available at www.w monk debates.com. Once you've joined as a member, go to your membership profile to access the rest of this episode and all of our monk members podcast. Thanks for listening.