The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Members-Only Pod: Episode 6

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

This is a sample of the Munk Members-Only Podcast. To access the full length episode consider becoming a Munk Member. Membership is free. Simply log on to www.munkdebates.com/membership to register. Under your membership profile page you will find a link to listen to the full length editions of Munk Members Podcast. The Munk Members Podcast provides a focused, half-hour masterclass on current events with Janice Gross Stein, the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and bestselling author. Rudyard Griffiths, Chair of the Munk Debates, is the podcast moderator. Janice and Rudyard unpack the big issues in the news and drill down into the people, events and trends that are shaping our lives in this extraordinary moment. The full length episode digs into three big stories in the news this week — Impeachment trial of Trump starts; will it make any difference to the future of U.S. politics? — Surging inequality; with billions being made by the world's richest investors in the current market frenzy is there a way to reign in the growing wealth gap? China and WHO —Chinese officials contend COVID originated outside China. Is this in any way credible? And, is the WHO capable of speaking truth to power in Beijing? If you like what the Munk Debates is all about consider becoming a Supporting Member. For as little as $9.99 monthly you receive unlimited access to our 10+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, monthly newsletter, ticketing privileges at our live events and a charitable tax receipt (for Canadian residents). To explore you Munk Membership options visit www.munkdebates.com/membership. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, Monk podcast listeners. The following is a sample of the Monk members-only podcast. To access the full-length edition of this episode and all of our regular Monk members-only podcasts, go to our website, www.wmunkdebates.com, and register for membership. Membership is free, and it's available for you right now at www.munkdebates.com. Hope you enjoy the program. Hi, Monk members. Welcome to this, our regular Monk members' podcast. podcast where we dig into the big issues and news and debates that are shaping our world in this extraordinary moment. Extremely fortunate to have as our guide for these programs, Janice Gross Stein. She's the founding director of the Monk School of Global Affairs and internationally

best-selling author, acclaimed scholar and thinker on international relations, public policy. Janice, always great to have these conversations with you. Just a pleasure to be here, Richard. Well, I think three big stories for us, Janice, to dig into this week. The first has to be the impeachment trial of Donald J. Trump, which has begun in the U.S. Senate. Janice, you've been following the testimony, looking at that powerful video documenting the riots on Capitol Hill earlier this year. will this trial make a difference to the future course of American politics? I think it does, Roger, but we are at the edge of a historic moment for the GOP, the grand old party.

There was really gripping video, and I watched the faces of some of those Republican senators who were reliving. what was for them a horrific moment. And I think what made the presentation so effective was those videos made clear those militias were not only coming after Democrats, they were coming after Mike Pence, a stalwart of the Republican Party. The big question going forward,

does this party hang together? or does it break up? And if it, almost either way, we're seeing a seismic change in U.S. politics. I think Donald Trump will be back on the campaign trail out of the layer. As soon as this trial is over, he will be making speeches. There will be crowds. There will be rallies. He will be raising funds.

And at the same time, people who vote. know, we'll have to explain to their voters and their constituencies why they did that. They're in a no-win situation, frankly, Redyard, and the pain and the misery for them is just not going away. There are rumors that some of these senators who may well vote know are nevertheless thinking now of splitting away and forming their own party. That is a kind of death wish. As you know, it is very hard to have a successful third party in the United States. But if the Republican Party splits away, either because Trump takes his followers and walks at some point, which is possible, or because it is just intolerable for some of these Republican senators to stay in a party that is owned and run by Trump for the next four years.

that party fractures. And we could be in a situation in the United States that looks a lot like a situation that Canadians were familiar with under Jean-Réchen, where the opposition was so fragmented that the government simply was able to coast. But does this trial, in a way, play into Trump's hands? Because we know the results are preordained. There isn't whatever they need, 16, 70. Republican senators to come over to join the Democrats to vote for conviction.

His legal counsel certainly seems to be mailing it in. You know, I think the legal community is kind of aghast at how feckless the defense has been at this point. But in some ways, that's an indication that this Janus is kind of theater. And Trump is back at the center of the national conversation. He stands in every moment. I look at this video, not of the riots, but of the trial itself. He stands as the antithesis of Washington.

You can say, indeed, if you're a senator that, you know, censure or some action is warranted here, but this allows Trump to continue to represent himself as the, as the, the, the, the vigilance. outside of the, you know, the D.C. swamp bent on on bringing this corrupt, cozy world of Washington to its heels. And that's exactly how he ran, of course, Richard. He ran as the outsider, and he's not the first one to run as an outsider against Washington. Ronald Reagan did that, too, with great success. But what distinguishes Trump is the violence, and let's call it what it is. violence that bubbles just beneath the surface, it is dog whistling to violence, it is stand back and stand by violence, but it's violence. It introduces this

subtext and open call for violence against institutions. And I think that's what makes this just a bloody nightmare for the Republican Party, which is, after all, institutionalized and lives off institutions. You know, one of the indicators, Rudyard, we have seen a doubling of Republicans leave the party in the post-election period. You always get a drop-off in memberships right after an election. Passion is cool and everybody goes back to their lives. But twice as many Republicans left as usual in this period after the election. And there were some focus groups and interviews, and people said, look, this is too far for me. I cannot go this far. I cannot go this far.

and what made them decide to leave were those pictures of the organized militias. You watched these videos yesterday. You see Mike Pence was 58 steps away from that angry mob. That, no matter what these senators are saying in public, that's chilling right here. That is a long-term problem. Can I be maybe purposely a little bit provocative here and just say, look, I agree. those videos do show a mob out of control. But let's also acknowledge that many Americans,

especially Americans who are visible minorities every day, face really incredible risks of violence and intimidation in their communities. That this is, in a sense, you know, the powerful elite, who are shocked into fear by the threat of violence. Yet these are the same people who are the legislators for a nation that subjects millions of their fellow citizens, especially those who are brown and black

and don't look like the majority of people in that U.S. Senate, to casual violence every single day, 365 days of the year. I don't know, there's something here that that just kind of grates with me a little bit. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of the riots, the loss of life that occurred, the potential for more loss of life that could have happened. But, oh, wow, you know, violence in America, when it comes to the rich, seems to be, you know, cause number one, yet we're going to tolerate. its existence, you know, casually day in and day out for the rest of the country. I don't think that's provocative at all, Roger.

I think you put your finger right on it. Violence is as American as apple pie, and it's come home now. It's come inside the Capitol to people who don't encounter this in a normal way. And you're absolutely right. They're shocked. And frankly, behind the scenes. They're talking openly about how traumatic it was, how frightened they were, how shocked they are. You're right that this is an experience that racialized minorities in the United States have in some version or another along the scale,

experience all their lives. And so there is an open double standard here. But what has changed is it's come home to that very cocoon group of people. You know, it's quite interesting Tom Friedman, journalist for the New York Times, the columnist for the New York Times, was scathing in his contempt last night for the Republican senators. And here's what he said, Roger. He said, what separates these guys from doing the right thing is a free parking pass at the Senate and they're guarantee that they're going to keep their job if they just stay in line?

And he said, if these people had defended the United States in World War II, we would all be eating Japanese food. Now, leading aside the rhetoric, there is a point here that this is a moment of reckoning for that party. This is not the party of Ronald Reagan who ran against Washington. There is something very different going on here. And if it's okay, if the Republican Party says this is okay for the future, we're in a new kind of politics in the United States, which is very dangerous. We're going to have to see where this impeachment trial goes in the days and weeks to come. You know, the sad part is, right here, we know where it's going, as you just said.

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