The Munk Debates Podcast - Munk Members-Only Pod: Episode 9

Episode Date: March 5, 2021

This is a sample of the Munk Members-Only Podcast. The program provides listeners with a focused, half-hour masterclass on the big issues, events and trends driving news and current events. The show features Janice Gross Stein, the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and bestselling author, in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths, Chair and moderator of the Munk Debates. This episode provides insights into three big stories in the news: do Saudi Arabia and Russia care about new sanctions levied by the Biden Administration?; two months into Brexit who are the big winners and losers?; and is getting a COVID-19 vaccine before the rest of your age cohort ever ok? We debate it all. To access the full length episode consider becoming a Munk Member. Membership is free. Simply log on to www.munkdebates.com/membership to register. Under your membership profile page you will find a link to listen to the full length editions of Munk Members Podcast. If you like what the Munk Debates is all about consider becoming a Supporting Member. For as little as $9.99 monthly you receive unlimited access to our 10+ year library of great debates in HD video, a free Munk Debates book, monthly newsletter, ticketing privileges at our live and online events and a charitable tax receipt (for Canadian residents). To explore you Munk Membership options visit www.munkdebates.com/membership. This podcast is a project of the Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable organization dedicated to fostering civil and substantive public dialogue. More information at www.munkdebates.com.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, Monk podcast listeners. The following is a sample of the Monk members-only podcast. To access the full-length edition of this episode and all of our regular Monk members-only podcasts, go to our website, www.com, and register for membership. Membership is free, and it's available for you right now at www. Monk Debates.com. Hope you enjoy the program. Hello, Monk members. Rudyard Griffiths here, your chair and moderator. Welcome to this, our latest monk members only podcast. This is our regular program where we delve into the big issues and ideas in the news shaping our world. We do this with Janice Gross Stein. She's the founding director of the Monk School of Global Affairs, internationally

bestselling author and acclaimed scholar of international relations. Janice, great to be talking with you today. Good morning, Rudyard, and so much to talk about. Yeah, we've got three issues on deck. Each program, our pledge to our listeners, is to take you through what we think are the top three kind of stories that deserve all of our attention this last week to 10 days and do that for you in 30 minutes or less. So, Janice, to kick off this week, I think we have an opportunity here to have a discussion about sanctions. And do they really matter anymore? What is the purpose of sanctions. In the last week, we've seen the United States go forward with two sanction acts, one against Saudi Arabia and the other against Russia. You know, these are important statements by the U.S. government, not just the content of them and the intent, but in effect, these are some of the very first big international moves or steps by the Biden administration

to express its foreign policy. What do you take away of these two cases, Saudi Arabia and Russia and the sanctions that the United States has imposed? This is a really interesting story, Roger, because it does give us an early signal from the Biden administration, you're right, and that signal is human rights matter.

And in that sense, the Biden administration is drawing up. right line between itself and its predecessor, the Trump administration, that was clearly transactional with both those governments. So this is, we are different. And it's not good enough for us to say we're different. We have to do something to show that we're different. So here's what the Biden administration did. It sanctioned the people around Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince, who was responsible, as their intelligence estimate says, for the murder of Khashoggi. So who were the operatives? Let's find those and sanction those and get as close to the crown

prince as possible. But, oh, wait a minute, let's not touch the crown prince. So we're not doing that one. In Russia, a very similar story. Really brutal treatise. of Navalny, you know, poisoned allegedly by the Russian government in hospital, in Germany to recover, in a very courageous act goes back to Russia, knowing that he would be arrested, and he was literally, his plane was diverted and he was arrested, tried, and then sentenced to one of the toughest penal colonies in Russia where famous for abuse.

Okay, let's sanction the people that we can identify who were involved in the poisoning. We're going to freeze their assets and make it very, very difficult for them to travel outside Russia without fear of risk. But hey, hey, wait a minute.

Don't go anywhere near Vladimir Putin. You can probably tell from my voice what I'm saying. Yeah, it seems that there, in a sense, is a contradiction here of intent and action or a tension between intent and action. I mean, as you say, the Biden administration speaking up also in China around human rights, but does that matter in the end if you're not willing to follow through with actions that create pressure that make those regimes feel as if they have something to lose, that their behavior is eliciting consequences. And I guess what surprises me the most, you're an expert on the Middle East, it surprises me consistently

why the United States kowtows to Saudi Arabia. I can understand being sensitive around the Russians. I mean, they have 3,000 thermonuclear weapons. I'd be careful around Putin, too. But MBS, I mean, come on. I mean, this is a regime that has, I think, ensnared the United States into an alliance with the Gulf states that's often been against probably its interests in the Middle East in terms of creating stability in a region that's vital to U.S. shipping, energy, oil, commerce. And more importantly, MBS is just a lousy actor, Janus. I mean, this is a bad guy that deserves, in my view, not just a slap on the wrist of people around him, but real punishment, not just for the killing of Khashoggi, but to somehow constrain his seeming belief in his ability to act unilaterally,

often with very negative consequences for his own country, not unimportant, but for the rest of us, too. You know, as I listened to the argument that you were just making, Roger, every time you said MBS, I could have put Putin in there. I talked about a very similar political dilemma for the United States for Canada, too, really. Putin has clearly been a destabilizer in his own neighborhood in the... But, Janice, isn't Putin just an order of magnitude different? I mean, Russia is not Saudi Arabia. I mean, Russia is a geopolitical player in a way with capabilities and geography and a whole bunch of other things that makes it,

I believe, something you've got to handle carefully. Saudi Arabia, though? I mean, this is a sclerotic monarchy that used to have a, you know, a stranglehold on global energy supply, but the United States is now producing 10 million barrels of oil on its own on a daily basis. So it's not as if there's the same energy independence that in administrations in the past required this obsequious attitude towards the House of Saudi. So your argument really is, Roger, let's sanction those who don't matter to us at all. but let's not sanction those who can inflict damage on us in return. So, you know, the House of Commons in Canada just passed a motion calling China's actions against the Uyghur community,

and there's lots of evidence to support this genocidal, but then stop. So this is rhetorical action not backed up by any sanctions, Magnitsky like or other, against the Chinese government, and there's a compelling argument. China can inflict an enormous amount of damage on Canada, so we're not going to do anything beyond saying this is genocide. So let's take China off the table. Let's take Putin off the table. So let's only sanction bad actors who do not have the capacity to reach out and retaliate in any way. Now, that's not a great message. if you're outside the big power world, where you see countries in the least, in Africa,

in South America, who are all potential targets of this kind of action. And there's one system for the powerful, there's quite another system for those who are not powerful. When has it ever not been that way? Isn't it better to put the likes of Saudi Arabia on warning, make them stand on their tippy toes, then giving them a pass on the basis that we need to create parity

with regards to how we respond to smaller powers like Saudi Arabia versus China and Russia. Saudi Arabia really has, if you look at Canada, I mean, we sell some armored vehicles to them, I think somewhat shamefully. We could walk away from the Saudis tomorrow. There's no reason that we need any kind of diplomatic or other, trade relationship with that regime that is brutally suppressing women that's torturing dissidents that's beheading people, Janice. I mean, you know, we have to act on our values somewhere. So if we,

if we can act at our values by picking on the people we can actually pick on, I'm all in favor of that. Okay. So we have a double standard of those we pick on. And by the way, that is precisely what has made, for example, the international criminal court, such an object of controversy, is really tried cases in Africa. So we've had, you know, we've had 20 years of an international criminal court that functionally, even though we've had judges and a prosecutor from Africa, consistently gone after African governments and ignored everybody else in the world. You actually discredit institutions and the values behind them when you consistently do this, Roger. Now, let's come to NBS for one last minute. He is aggressive, ruthless, comes out of a culture,

as you just described, where you behead political prisoners, you flog them. I mean, this is something that is frankly anathema to most of the democracies in the world. But there is another side to him, which doesn't get talked about enough. He is actually pushing for change. He doesn't tolerate criticism, and he shuts down literally, physically, anybody who does. But at the same time, this is the guy who made it legal for women to draw it. This is the guy who is making it possible to take on the absolutely oppressive guardianship system in Saudi Arabia that has, prevented women from doing anything without the consent of their male guardian.

This is the guy who was trying to move Saudi Arabia off, it's terminal dependence on oil, and build an alternative economy. So how you described him is absolutely accurate, Red Yard, but it's not the whole story about him. And so that's where it's difficult. I don't know, Janice. I mean, we're short on time for the same. I don't know if it's difficult.

I don't know if you do deals with people that are chopping up journalists with bone saws. I think there are certain normative horizons that we need to embrace and act on. Well, you know, this is, we're going to confront this kind of dilemma with many, many countries that we deal with. How do you add up the costs and the benefits and more generically, and this is going to be the big one for the next 10 years, Roger. How do you actually encourage the change you want? Because what I described was some important changes toward better rights for women in Saudi Arabia. And you can't just sneeze at that one. How do you encourage that while making clear that chopping up a journalist and murdering him inside an embassy is not okay?

Well, you sanction the people who did it. And that's why sanctions are so attractive. because it's better than doing nothing, but it's stopped short of doing something really meaningful. You've been listening to a sample of the Monk Members Only podcast. To access the rest of the episode, consider becoming a member. Membership is free and available at www.w monk debates.com. Once you've joined as a member, go to your membership profile

to access the rest of this episode and all of our Monk members podcast. Thanks for listening.