The Munk Debates Podcast - Victor Gao on China’s role after COVID-19

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

On this episode of the Munk Debates Podcast, VP of the Center for China and Globalization, Victor Gao on China's role in global affairs post pandemic.Become a Munk Donor ($50 annually) to get 72-hour advanced access to the full length editions of Friday Focus and Munk Dialogues. Go to www.munkdebates.com to sign up. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Monk Debates podcast. Every episode, we normally provide you with a civil and substantive debate on the big issues of the day. But our world as we know it has changed and so has our format for the next few weeks. We're bringing you a special series called The Monk Dialogues. We invite the sharpest minds and brightest thinkers for one-on-one conversations live on Facebook to reflect on what our world will look like after the COVID-Dilocks. pandemic. These dialogues provide you, the listener, with original insights into the pandemic's impact on everything from our shared values to the economy to international affairs. This week, we bring you Victor Gao. He's the vice president of the Center for China and Globalization and the English interpreter to the late paramount leader of the People's Republic of China, Deng Xiaoping. Victor Gow, in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths, in an edited version of the live event recorded Wednesday, June the 10th. Hello, and welcome to the Mug Dialogues.

I'm Rudyard Griffith, your host and moderator. The purpose is for us to gather together as a community online to talk to some of the world's brightest thinkers and sharpest minds about how this pandemic is changing our world with the likes of Fareed Zakaria, Malcolm Gladwell, Samantha Power, Neil Ferguson, Ian Bremmer, the list goes on and on. And we've been really warmed here at the Monk debates and the Monk Dialogues by the response that you, our audience, the tens of thousands of people that are watching each and every one of these dialogues.

And I want to thank you and acknowledge you for your participation in making this series of success. I also want to announce that this is the 10th and final episode in this series, this first installment of the Monk Dialogues. We will be back at this project in the fall, in the autumn, starting late September, running up and through the U.S. election to talk about the continuing impacts of this pandemic on our world, on our society, on our collective values, and we'll be bringing to you this autumn again,

some really terrific commentators that will announce in the coming week. So if you have questions, if you have suggestions for us, people that you want to hear your views on these dialogues, please send us your feedback to dialogues at monkdebates.com. Again, that email dialogues at monkdebates.com. We'd love to hear from you. Well, look, as a special treat for this, our final episode installment of this,

our inaugural Monk Dialogue series, we're going to go straight to Beijing, China, to have a conversation with one of that country's leading foreign policy experts, someone who has really distinguished himself as an exemplary communicator. His name is Victor Gao. He's vice president of the influential Center for China and Globalization. He was Deng Xiaoping's English interpreter playing a key role in Deng Xiaoping's administration in foreign affairs and international relations.

And he's a chairman of the Yale Law School Association of China. And as I mentioned, Victor joins us right now, from Beijing China. Victor, great to have you on the program. Thank you very much for having me. It's a great honor for me to be here. As I mentioned, I'm really looking forward to this conversation tonight because the purpose of these dialogues is to bring to our audiences

unique and important and influential voices, and you certainly are that voice coming to us from Beijing, China. Let's begin, Victor, by having your thoughts on how this pandemic has impacted China's role in the world. What do you see as the lasting legacy, the effects in the months and years to come of this pandemic on how China will engage with the world? Well, this COVID-19 is the most lethal pandemic. Mankind has seen for the last 100 years or so, and China was the first victim. China suffered a great deal.

Back in January and February and much of March, China was mostly fighting this pandemic. this pandemic more or less alone. And China did a lot of great efforts. And by now, China succeeded in fighting off this coronavirus. And I hope by doing so, China has set a good example for the rest of the world to see that once you have the right policy, once you mobilize all the resources, once you refuse to second guess as to how much science and technology and the right way, to fight off the coronavirus can achieve, you will fight off the coronavirus and mankind can eventually win this battle against this pandemic. Now, the fight against coronavirus on the global scale is still ongoing.

It's not yet finished yet. But I would say we need to look beyond COVID-19. We need to look into the future. I would say the world after COVID-19 will be very, very different. from the world which we just said goodbye before the outbreak of this pandemic. I think lots of things will be changed. They are changing as we speak right now. And you talk about distant learning.

A university is moving online, and you talk about digital payment. You talk about social distancing. You talk about fundamental changes in the way human-to-human relations will need to be restructured and reform, all this will have profound impact on almost every aspect of human life, human work, human society as a whole. Now, China not only fought off this COVID-19 and now is very, very vigilant against any imported cases of infection into China, China has already jump-started its economy. We know for the first quarter of this year, Chinese economy contracted by 6.8%. This is unprecedented over the past 41 years. We know Chinese GDP consistently for the last

four decades or so has been growing on an annual basis on average about 9 to 10% every year. So a contraction of 6.8% would cause a lot of pain to the people and to all aspects of society in China. But I think the Chinese government decided. it. But that price is a price China need to pay in order to make sure that we win the battle against the coronavirus and in order to pull all the resources to save every life possible from death from this deadly virus. Now I'm very happy to see that the Chinese economy is starting to be normalized and the second quarter will become much better than the first quarter, and I think by year end, Chinese economy probably will grow by 3% more or less.

That will be about half of the original growth target China has set for itself for 2020. But even at 3% GDP growth for 2020, China's economic growth will be one of the best in the world. And China's growth will really contribute to the economic growth of almost all the countries in the world. restarting economic growth, climbing back to normalcy, and embarking on recovery and more growth for the future years. So I think China is faced with fighting off imported cases, but also very much involved in restarting and normalizing its economic growth for itself, but also equally

importantly for the rest of the world. Thank you, Victor. Good insights. Important to share with our audience. What are the features of global politics going into this coronavirus was rising tensions between China and the United States, a so-called clash of great powers? I think we could all agree that this virus has increased those tensions. You were recently quoted in the press as saying that America needs to stop treating China like a banana republic. I wondered if you could just give us a sense of what the sentiment is in China right now towards the United States. And more importantly, how China is perceiving U.S. criticism of its response to the pandemic and its role in global affairs. How is this playing out in the shadow of COVID-19? Thank you. That's a very important question,

probably one of the most important questions mankind are faced with now. I would say China-U.S. relations ever since Dr. Henry Kissinger's secret visit to China in 1971 and ever since the normalization of relations between China and the United States in 1979, China U.S. relations have never been as bad as it is today, and we still do not know how much worse it will deteriorate in the coming months or coming years. However, in the medium and longer term, I'm actually very confident about the overall constructive development of China-U.S. relations. Why? Very importantly, first of all, war is not an option between China and the United States, as Dr. Henry Kaczynser correctly pointed out. Now, second point, short of a war between these two countries,

what can these two countries do? Neither China nor the United States can really hold the other down to the ground without consequences. And China has no intention of antagonizing. the United States and treating the United States as an adversary or as an enemy. Now, the third point is my firm belief that China and the United States need to treat each other as equals, rather than one country always scheming to hold the other country down onto the ground. These two countries need to figure out a way to get along with each other. You now mentioned criticisms of the United States of China. Now, from the Chinese perspective, if they are criticisms,

even if they are wrong or not wrong, I need to listen to the criticisms very, very attentively because criticisms actually always have a constructive aspect to it. But what's coming out of Washington are not criticisms at all. These are false accusations. these are distortions of facts, these are allegations without any evidence or without proof. This is really against decency or morality or rule of law. For example, if you accuse someone, you still need to give them the benefit of the doubt.

You still need to do your job. The burden is on you to come up with evidences, as we have learned, law ABC. This is very simple. You still need to use the presumption of innocence. against anyone you accuse or against any country you accuse, you cannot impose your version of the truth or lack of truth onto the other countries, especially onto a big country with 1.4 billion people, 5,000 years of history, as China. The Chinese people will not accept that, and China as a country, will not succumb to such false accusations.

Now, in the middle of this fight, the worst thing any country can do is not to focus on the fight, against coronavirus is to blame other countries, is to kick the blame to anyone else or into multiple directions. This is not befitting any leadership of any country, especially it's not befitting the only remaining and surviving superpower in the world. I think the world is looking for global leadership. I do expect that the United States will resume global leadership, but in the right direction, rather than leading itself or the rest of the world into the woods. Victor, just to build on this, because this is an important conversation, again, that we need to have, because I think all of us share a concern about a return to a kind of Cold War

mentality of East versus West with Russia being replaced by China in that kind of ideological battle of powers. If we're going to avoid that, Victor, what needs to be done from a policy perspective. What does China need to see from the rest of the world? Because there is a perspective, I think, in the West that China has become more assertive. It's become more assertive with regards to its traditional territories, Hong Kong, Taiwan. It's become more assertive as a digital power in terms of how it uses digital influence, both within its borders, but also abroad. So what are the building blocks of a positive agenda that could de-escalate tensions because it certainly seems that this pandemic has ramped them up and that we're really not anywhere close to a de-escalation at this point.

Tensions between China and the United States most likely will get worse before it ever has a chance of getting better. However, I think most of these pressures come from the United States or from Washington rather than from China. China seems to be very much standing on its ground doing the right thing in a decent and dignified manner, whereas lots of people in Washington coming from the very top are kind of losing their sanity, are becoming very agitated. It's not befitting the status of the biggest economy in the world or the largest superpower in the world. It really distorts the image of the United States in the eyes of all the other countries. Why should the United States be afraid of another country if it really

believes in the superiority of the values it stand for. If it still believes it is the light on the top of the mountain, lots of people in China, including me, looked up at the United States as the shining light on top of the mountain. And I think it still serves as an inspiration. But if you really want to trash that light, if you really want to drop from the top of the mountain to the abyss, then people will recognize that you are not the light on the top of the mountain. And this is not good for yourself. This is not good for the whole world. Now, I would say China-U.S. relations have been poisoned and neither China nor the American people are the beneficiary of the recent deterioration of relations between China and the United States. I would even go as far as say,

both the Chinese people and the American people are becoming victims of the deteriorations of the relations between China and the United States. Who is poisoning the relations between China and the United States? I think we need to help China and help the United States to realize that we need to go through this process of detoxicating the relations between these two great countries. And eventually, we need to come to a more objective and realistic and pragmatic appreciation of the importance of China-U.S. relations, and these two countries are not destined to become enemies of each other, because if China and the U.S. go to each other's juggler, they will be both destroyed

to the huge detriment of the people of these two countries, but also to world peace and development. I would appeal on all of us to stand firm against any warmongering between China and the United States. We need to go very firmly for peace, rather than treating war. the other as an enemy because China, US, becoming enemies against each other will probably spell the doom for mankind. Tell us what your advice is to a country like Canada. I mean, we increasingly find ourselves and what we feel is a difficult position, a position where our economy bound to the United States, security interests deeply tied into the U.S.,

at the same time facing deteriorating relations between Canada in Beijing. which is odd, given our long history of constructive dialogue and cooperation through your revolutionary period, through the opening up of the Chinese economy. That relationship, though, very different today with two Canadians, Michael Spavore and Michael Kovrig, imprisoned in China, Ming Waijing, the daughter of the CFO of Huawei, dealing with extradition to the United States from here in Canada. what is your advice to the Canadian people, to the Canadian nation in this post-COVID world of increasing, as you say, potentially tensions getting worse from here between China and the United States. What does Canada need to do? I have the highest admiration and the love for the Canadian people. And I personally believe that between China and Canada, there are actually no fundamental reasons why we cannot be good friends and partners with each other, especially when you hear the Canadian people.

talk about becoming the energy superpower, it's unfortunate that the United States no longer needs the energy from Canada. And if I'm Canadian and I look around, China is the only logical, large and affordable market to take up a lot of energy and other materials, including agricultural products from Canada. Therefore, I think you need to keep the big orientation right. You can never get away from the United States, you will have always very close relations with the United States. That's taken for granted. But China is and will be increasingly the most important to market for Canada going forward, especially in the energy sector, especially in the raw material sector, agricultural products, for example. So I believe China and Canada need to do whatever we can

to straighten out the relations to overcome whatever difficulties there are. Now, for Huawei and Mali Meng Wan, so I want to say that Huawei is probably one of the best, if not the best and most outstanding technology companies in the world. If you read their corporate history, you need to be impressed as to how much odds they overcome to get to where they are today. They are really a leading technological bright stars in the world.

I'm puzzled why the United States wants to treat this as a public enemy number one and elevated into national security sector and try to kill one company with all the resources at the command of the United States. It's a very unfair game. One company being targeted as the primary target by the largest superpower in the world. Now, for Meng Wancho, I would say her case is very much part of the political persecution of the United States against the Huawei as a company. Just look at U.S. versus Huawei, one superpower versus one company. That's the unfair relations we are talking about. I'm very sad to see that Canada has been thrown under the bus by the United States as far as Meng Wanzhou's case. We all know the importance of rule of law.

We all know the importance of the independent judiciary, and I fully respect the Canadian traditions of that. But if the Canadians are really serious about rule of law and political and judiciary independence, for example, then I hope they will call upon President Trump and the United States to release and give back that American lady who killed an innocent British boy by driving and killed him eventually, and fled justice from the UK and fled back to the United States. The U.S. government need to surrender that American lady to the British authorities for independent prosecution.

Now, President Trump even went so far as to hide that lady in the White House and try to use her as a bluff against the parents of that killed British boy. When they visited the White House tried to appear. to President Trump to release that American lady back to the judiciary system in the United Kingdom. I think if we are talking about real respect of rule of law, surrendering that American lady back to the United Kingdom is rule of law, is what the United States government need to do in the minimum.

But we see double standards. And for Meng Man Zhou, I just hope her case will be resolved, satisfactorily and Canada can respect its rule of law tradition, but also will avoid being crushed under the huge bus. And Canada has been thrown over there by some political forces in the United States in this overall context of political persecution of Huawei as a company. Now, for the two Canadians very unfortunately in custody in China, the Chinese government has always maintained that these two cases have nothing to do with the detention and the arrest and the case against the Malun Meng Wancho, but I want to take the risk and say, I always believe everything

under the heaven, everything in the universe are related with each other. There is always a connectivity between any two different things. And I believe a very good and satisfactory solution of Meng Wanzhou's case by the Canadian authorities will create a very good, very, very important incentive for China to do the right thing. And on a personal level, I will do my best to appeal all the forces in China and move all the mountains possible to make sure that the two Michaels are returned peacefully and successfully back to Canada and rejoin with their families. That will be the best case scenario, which you not want to see further strains in relations between China and Canada. And I hope my respect. My respect

for the Canadian people, my admiration of Canada as a great country, will contribute to this peaceful solution of this very, very unfortunate political persecution, if I may say so, of Madam Wangzhou and Huawei as a company in North America. Well, thank you, Victor. That's an important synopsis of what is one of the big foreign policy challenges facing Canada right now. Let's, Victor, take questions. We've had a lot of them coming in for you over the last number of days. I'm going to read them to you and we'll get your response. We'll move through these and will help inform this dialogue. So this is from Michael in Toronto and he says, Victor Gao quotes you, saying USA and China need to talk as equals. Is Trump capable of doing

this? I guess, Victor, what is the feeling in Beijing right now? You're there talking to us from your nation's capital. What is the feeling about the ability to manage these tensions that, as you say, have been ramped up by the COVID pandemic before the U.S. election? Is there really any ability to have a constructive conversation between your two leaders in the context of what's been said and the political cycle? You know it well. You've spent a lot of time in the United States, a frenetic U.S. political cycle that is underway now. Thank you very much. Again, China-U.S. relations cannot be more important as it is today in this fast-changing world. In my own career, I have the great honor of meeting with all the U.S. presidents in their capacity as incumbent president or former presidents ever since President Richard Nixon, with two exceptions. I've never met with Gerald Ford and I've never met with Donald Trump. And based on my personal experiences and decades-old study of China-U.S. relations, I would say the U.S. situation is

truly extraordinary and unprecedented. I think the head of state of the most important country in the world is not taken seriously by lots of people in the world because he truly does not represent the true values, the decency, the dignity, the honesty and integrity and the hard working and respecting others, other people, people of other colors, other races, other faiths, for example. I think that's troubling. And as far as the Chinese government is concerned, I would say regardless of whoever becomes the president of the United States, be it Republican or Democrat, China will always deal with the president with a lot of dignity and with a lot of decency. It doesn't mean China agrees with what he or she stands for, but

a president of the United States is a very, very important person in the world. And he commands respect and he commands dealing with him with all the decency. But Trump is truly an exception. Now, I'm worried that in the months running up to the November presidential election, I'm afraid America will be damned if Trump wins and America will be damned if Trump loses. Why? If Trump wins, then he probably will pull all the stops out in the next four years and do as much damage as anyone can do to the U.S. prestige in the world, to the harmony in the United States, and to racial equality among different people of different faith, different gender, and different colors of the skin. Now, if he loses, I'm afraid hell will break out. He will kick his scream and he will

refuse to acknowledge defeat, and he will constantly and never-ending, demanding, recounting of the ballots, and he probably will even refuse to acknowledge the judgments of court in the United States, including eventually, probably from the Supreme Court. And I'm afraid President Trump may be the first incumbent U.S. president who may openly call for insurrection of the American people in certain states that he may lose. So I really worry about. the coming few months, leading up to the election and leading up to the transition on January the 20th, 2021. But I have fundamental faith in the American people, in the American people's decency, in their dignity, in their hardworking, and in their open-mindedness. And I hope

American people will be more and more inclusive going forward. So we need to deal with Trump so long as he is the president of the United States, and we need to deal with whoever who may replace him in January 2021 or in January 2025. I think lots of the countries in the world have written off President Trump as the leader of the United States, and they are preparing for the post-Trump era whenever that will happen.

And I hope America deserves a better president. You're listening to The Monk Dialogues, a special edition of the Monk Debates podcast, where we invite big thinkers to reflect on what our world will look like after COVID-19. This week, Vice President of the Center for China and Globalization, and Deng Xiaoping's English interpreter, Victor Gao, on China's role on global affairs after COVID-19. Victor, let's go to our next question there. Again, there were a lot for you, so I'm going to try to get through as many as we can. This is from Emma, she's asking. What is your opinion of Trump's accusation that China did not fully disclose the threat of COVID-19

and help sow the seeds of the global pandemic? This has been, as you know, Victor, a raw point that has been made by this administration and by other nations and governments that China somehow let the international community down in terms of its response to the pandemic, it's the extent of its information sharing, and that China therefore has some responsibility that it needs to acknowledge about the scale and the scope of the pandemic today. Well, first of all, I think all the countries in the world can do better in getting their acts together in fighting against the COVID-19. Secondly, COVID-19 is a new phenomenon. It was an unknown phenomenon to mankind as a whole.

I understand lots of hospital visits at the very, very beginning were mistreated and misdiagnosed. They were treated as flus, as diarrhea, as pneumonia, you name it. And then on December 26th or 27th, there was a doctor. He started to raise the red flag. He pressed the red button. And this whole thing changed. The paradigm changed because all of a sudden, the government resources started. started to be pulled together to find out what exactly this problem was.

And I think China scrambled into action and China in less than two weeks time discover the true nature of this lethal threat to people in Wuhan, people in Hubei province, which has a population of 60 million people, and to the Chinese people of 1.4 billion, and to the mankind as a whole with 7 billion people. Now, for any government, for any country to exactly pinpoint the true nature of this COVID-19 in less than two weeks time and come up with a genove sequencing and having that reported to WHO and completely disclosed to the world health and pharmaceutical community as a whole is a lot of work. We know that mankind as a whole, even today, do not understand all.

aspects of COVID-19. It's evolving, it's changing, and it may come up with new surprises. Therefore, I hope the rest of the world will give China the benefit of the doubt. China moved from unknown as far as this coronavirus is concerned to knowing the exact nature. And that transition was not easy. That transition was not to be expected. That transition was made by making all the painstaking efforts. You need not one homes. You probably would need thousands of homes to really come back with the true understanding

of the nature of this health hazard, the coronavirus. And I hope mankind in the coming months in the continued fight against COVID-19 will gain more and more understanding into this COVID-19. And eventually, we will as a whole, as mankind, overcome this pandemic. And we will really overcome. Victor, just a quick question for you because a lot more to move through.

But what's your prediction if China comes up with a vaccine first? What will China's attitudes be in terms of the government towards that vaccine? Will it be primarily for domestic national use before its share in international? nationally. And similarly, maybe again, we just have to be brief here. I'm sorry, there's so many questions I want to talk with you about. But what's China's perspective of what the Americans may do if they come up with a vaccine first? No, first of all, I was one of the happiest person the other day when I heard the public declaration by President Xi Jinping of China when he said to the whole world that when China comes up with the vaccine against COVID-19, China will use the

vaccine as international public good will make it easily accessible by people in all the countries in the world. This is, I truly believe, the right thing for China to do. And this will be a very, very good example of international cooperation, mankind's common fight against the COVID-19. And I would not be surprised if China will work in all gear, in all steam to produce as much as possible vaccine to make it available at low cost or at no cost, at very reasonable cost, to people everywhere in the world. And I believe with all the Chinese funding and mobilization of all the scientific and medical experts in this regard, hopefully China will produce the vaccine in a timely manner.

Now, I do not want to comment on the United States, but I'm worried about important countries devoting resources to develop the vaccine and try to use that in a monopolistic way only for its own people. And you're not talking about 330 million people as a whole. You may be talking about selected groups of people in that particular country. This is worrisome. This will really destroy international cooperation. And I hope, actually, the WHO is the only recognized and viable international organization, which can mobilize to lead the international cooperation.

But it's very, very unfortunate. And it pains me as a person to see the United States government walking out of WHO, thus sabotaging the global effort to come up with vaccine. China is supporting the WHO pledging $2 billion US dollars over the coming two years. But also China is pouring thousands of thousands of millions of dollars into the development of vaccine on its own. But I do believe, and I do respect President Xi Jinping when he declares to the world, the Chinese vaccine will be international public good. Thank you, Victor. It's an important point. I just wanted to raise that and get to your view on. That's certainly something we're all

thinking about him watching closely. Let's go to our next question. This is from Brian here in Toronto asking which policies would Deng Xiaoping admire and which would he be skeptical about in terms of China's role on the world stage today. So you, let's remind our viewers, Victor, were Deng Xiaoping's lead English translator. You spent enumerable amount of time with him, working with him closely to articulate his vision of China's role in the world. If he were to look at the situation today, what would his perspective be? I would say if the great man were still here with us today, first of all, he will be very happy to see that all his prophecies about Chinese economic development have been achieved and realized and more than achieved ahead of his predictions. Secondly, I think he will be very happy to

see that China, through peaceful development, perseverance in hard work, and also never becoming complacent, have achieved whatever it has taken to arrive at China today. China is the second largest economy in the world on the purchasing power parity. China is already ahead of the United States. And China is the largest trading partner with more than 130 countries in the world. And China is the largest producer of many, many important items in the world. And very importantly, many categories, China's production is more than 50% of the global production. China produces up to about 29 million cars every year.

Can you believe it? More than 10 millions more than the US produces on an annual basis. I think Deng Xiaoping will be the happiest man in the world. But he would always say to China that China, we need to keep a low profile. We need to treat every country in the world, big or small the United States or Fiji, for example, very small Pacific Island countries as equals. And we need to treat every people of whatever. faith of whatever color, whatever level of wealth or poverty as equals. And China always need to

open the door. China always need to engage with the rest of the world. China will never close its door. We'll never set up another great wall trying to keep the rest of the world outside of China because that will doom China rather than save China. And in that spirit, I would say, Deng Xiaoping will tell the American people that China is not an enemy of the United States. Chinese people and American people should get along with each other. The world is too big for both China and the United States. And neither China nor the United States should expect to hold the other country down. And I think in that spirit, Deng Xiaoping today will stand for peace and development and saving mankind as a whole.

This is exactly what President Xi Jinping is talking about today. He's talking about the shared interest of mankind as a whole. Just to hear you on that point of contrast between Deng Xiaoping's China and China today, because you spend so much time with him, I think a few people probably understood his thought processes better than you did. As a translator, that's a very unique role that you share with somebody else, a very big responsibility. He was known as a great reformer, somebody who wanted to leave. China through, as you've mentioned, a period of economic reform and some, what you might call political liberalization. Do you think he would feel that China had succeeded on the first, but maybe

hadn't made as much progress in terms of political liberalization in recent years? That seems, at least from the outside, from the uninformed observer, which I am, it seems that China has pulled back from that impetus towards domestic political reform. Now, first of all, I would say, China's economic development cannot be achieved without political reform. And political reform is a precondition, is a must for more successful Chinese economic development. Now, lots of people in the world, especially in the Western countries, believe that China is not politically reforming itself. I would tend to disagree because if China is not reformed, if China goes back to the old days of the communist system, etc.

Deng Xiaoping called the system he introduced to China, which China is still pursuing today, as socialism with Chinese characteristics. And I truly believe this is a catch-all paradigm. It can really embody the good elements of whatever system, whatever political structure in the world, so long as it will work for the Chinese people, so long as it will work to bring bread and butter to the table for the Chinese people.

And I would say in this spirit of pragmatism and liberalism, and realism, this is the key to the Chinese economic development. I see Chinese people as a whole enjoying much more freedom today than 41 years ago. And I believe tomorrow, China of tomorrow, will be more open and more liberal than it is today. Come to China and see how much freedom people do have. The Chinese people now can freely travel anywhere in the country. And this is a big country. You are talking about 1.4 billion people freely traveling around, freely typing on their smartphone, on their mobile devices, etc.

With a couple of red-button issues, of course. For example, no one in China is allowed to talk about Hong Kong independence or Taiwan independence or Tibetan independence or Xinjiang independence. These are tough issues you cannot talk about. Chinese people cannot talk about overthrowing the Communist Party of China because that will be illegal. That's against the constitution. But other than these red button hot issues that you are not supposed to talk about or touch, I would say the Chinese people can talk about everything they talk about.

And I think this fast accelerating speed of the 4G to 5G and everyone has a mobile phone, for example, really enable the Chinese population to overcome distance, to overcome all kinds of difficulties. And I think this definitely will fuel more liberalism, more understanding of the Chinese people, the rest of the world, and the Chinese people will become more and more cosmopolitan, in a sense, and they will appreciate their rights more and more. But allow me to add to one point, true democracy does not mean that everyone can have the right to demonstrate or protest illegally, democracy need to be firmly based on rule of law. And we all have a vested interest in fighting against chaos and rioting while protecting fully

the legal rights of the people to demonstrate and protest if they are done peacefully and legally. That should be the same case for the Chinese people, be it in mainland China or in Hong Kong. Victor, it's fascinating to get your view in the kind of Chinese perspective on the recent civil unrest in the United States. How is that seen at a cultural level in China? Do people see that as people expressing their freedoms? Do they see it as the social fabric of the United States being rented apart and an attack on social order? How are these protests in the United States viewed in China? Well, first of all, I think most of the Chinese people are shocked by the double standards of some of the

US politicians have adopted. They chaired the rioting in Hong Kong for more than one year, labeling them democracy fighters, freedom fighters, etc. But once rioting happened in the United States, the president of the United States threatened to use brutal military force, that's really very much shocking. It's really exposing the true hypocrisy of some of the politicians in the United States. Now, on the other hand, I think this rioting or demonstrations or peaceful demonstrations by most people against racial discrimination, against racism, are appreciated by most of the people in the United States and most of the people in the whole world because racism is an evil, racial discrimination and racial persecution is an evil. They need to be weeded

out and the American people cannot be better served if, for example, extremism, racism, KKK, et cetera, raise their dangerous head or anti-Semitism raise its dangerous head. So I think most of the people in China support whatever that need to be done to weed out racism, anti-Semitism and racial discrimination and racial persecution, etc. But also, I would say, most of the people in China are worried about the level of violence sometimes. I believe most of the people in this country still agree with me when we say, if you want to express yourself, do it peacefully, do it lawfully, rather than going to the extreme of killing and mailing and setting things on fire, damaging properties, etc. because that is not the right way to achieve the legitimate views and demands of the people. Do it peacefully.

Thank you, Victor, Victor, coming to us live from Beijing, Victor Gao. This question is from Peter, he's asking, is the U.S. resisting Huawei because it's a security risk or because it is concerned that China is going to lead in critical technology? So maybe, Victor, you've kind of answered that already earlier in our dialogue, so maybe just taking a little bit of a different direction. Some of our other speakers on this series, these conversations have worried about the emergence of two internets,

an internet led by the United States with European and Western technology providers and a second internet built and led by China, which it is actively exporting technology and technological leadership around the world. Are you concerned about the bifurcation, the breakdown of the dream of a global web uniting all of society through the use of common shared technologies. Thank you very much. This is a very important question. A couple of points very quickly. I'm amused,

Secretary of State Pompeo telling Prime Minister Johnson that the U.S. offers to help the United Kingdom build a 5G network. The United States cannot even build a 5G network for itself. How can it help UK? I hope the British people will be sophisticated enough to be swindled out of their fortune and wealth by such false claims by Pompeo. Now, secondly, China does lead in the 5G. Huawei is an outstanding, very brilliant company which contributes a lot to the 5G network. Now, as we experience in the fight against COVID-19, I think the world will become more connected, more enabled in the years to come.

and 5G will be a very, very important piece. China-U.S. relations or Huawei-U.S. relations are very complicated, but I always see it through a very special prism. That is, I came up with a term called a Tonya Harding syndrome. I think we all know about the story of Tonya Harding and her associates. In order to prevent Nancy Kerrigan from winning the U.S. skating championship, they actually whacked the kneecap of Nancy. Nancy Kerrigan, but eventually Tonya Harding lost any chance of competing in the United States

on the global stage. So Tonya Harding syndrome not only can apply to one individual athlete or non-athlete, it can apply to a company, it can apply to a society, it can apply to a country, big or small. I think Tonya Harding syndrome is very much running a mark in the United States. China is ahead of the United States in 5G, Huawei. the leading company while Huawei is incidentally also has the largest amount of intellectual properties already recognized in the world for the rollout of the 5G. So US does not want to see another country or another company ahead of it. It wants to whack the kneecap of Huawei. It

want to whack the kneecap of China. But the United States and the American people are not getting the benefit of the rollout of the 5G. Don't look at the 5G as the nuclear weapon. I remember back in the 1980s, when China and the United States were talking about close cooperation, some of the American visitors mentioned, oh, this is high tech, we cannot sell it to China. Deng Xiaoping very correctly said, but you want to sell and export wheat to China. But do you remember, wheat also can be consumed by the Chinese soldiers? So you can call wheat a military and strategic export from the United States.

Now, I think the philosophical point is very simple. A technology is a technology. You cannot keep whacking the kneecap of another country or another company in order to make sure that you pull ahead of the competitor. The better way is for the United States to do more research and more cooperation and collaboration with companies, throughout the world to make up for the shortfall in the 5G and really pull itself ahead in 6G or 7G. I'm very amazed by Mr. Musk's great endeavors in building up this satellite connections, which may actually help the connectivity in the United States and elsewhere in the world, but the satellite network that Mr. Musk is building cannot replace 5G.

And I think mankind will still benefit from the 5G. I've worried about the bifurcation of technologies going forward. But I do believe mankind as a whole will be better served if we allow science and technology to move forward unhindered. And if we refuse to whack the kneecap of another country or another. company simply because they are ahead of us we should learn from our competitors and we will benefit a great deal if you truly sometimes humbly learn from your competitors rather than killing your competitors well the

Tanya Harding syndrome I think is a new geopolitical moniker concept Victor that we're gonna remember from tonight's conversation it's a it's a great analogy let's go to our remaining time with you we'll squeeze in a couple of couple more questions. You've been very generous coming to us live from Beijing. It's early in the morning for you, so we appreciate you getting up to be part of this conversation. Here's another Deng Xiaoping question for you, and the viewer is asking you, Robert, what do you think Deng Jal Ping would have thought of the Belt and Road initiative? This to viewers, just to explain, is the new kind of super highway that China is building, linking together its economies with the other

economies of South Asia through Middle Asia terminating in Europe. It's a big global infrastructure project on a scale, really, that we've not seen in recent decades. So would this have fit very much within Deng Xiaoping's view of China's economic development, that that needed to occur outside of China? I guess, again, some people see the Belt and Road initiative as an example of a new, more assertive, reaching outside of its traditional, geographic borders to create and fashion its economic future. Thank you very much for this very important question. You know Deng Xiaoping's native place was in Sichuan.

And in China, we all know that the roads and traffic conditions in Sichuan are very, very difficult. The Tang era poet, Li Bai, said, roads in Sichuan are difficult, as difficult as climbing up to heaven because they are surrounded by mountains, especially on the western side, they are surrounded by the Qinghai Tibetan plateau. Now, I would say anyone, especially Deng Xiaoping, will know the importance of infrastructure, connectivity, road conditions, for example. One big thing China learned, if not anything else, over the past 41 years, is always if you want to become rich, build a road. If you want to become wealthy, build a road first.

Because with access, with connectivity, you can actually demand and command a premium for whatever you can sell to the others. Good services, your intellectual property rights, and public service willingness, for example. Therefore, when China first introduced the Belt and Road Initiative, it is very much a connectivity concept. It is not a dazzle you concept because you invite a Canadian, an American, an Australian, Austrian, a German to the Qinghai Tibetan plateau to Sichuan. And you will be amazed by the quality of the infrastructure, roads, highways, railways, tunnels, for example. But China want to make sure that people in other countries can equally get the benefit

of enhanced infrastructure connectivity and building a road for countries like Ethiopia or Kenya is not generating direct benefit to the people in China. They generate direct benefit to the people in Kenya and Ethiopia. That's very simple. I think to build a railway or build a power plant in any particular country will immediately generate instant benefits to the people of that country.

So I think Belt and Road initiative is not ideologically driven. It's not a geopolitical project. It is the bread and bother for any country which need to beef up its nation building capacity, its poverty alleviation capacity. And I hope the United States will no longer stand in the way of the Belt and Road. the United States should be welcomed and is welcomed to join the Belt and Road initiative. Even, I hope, the Belt and Road Initiative can really penetrate into the United States because we know 40 years ago the U.S. infrastructure projects were much, much higher quality compared

with China. But allow me to say that very objectively, today, infrastructure in China is much, much better in terms of quality and the scale than that of the United States. I do want to help the American people to make sure that the American people get the benefit of beefed up and enhanced infrastructure, including cyber connectivity. We should not look at that as a threat. We should look at that as an enabling force to emancipate the American productivity in the decades to come. Victor, thank you for being part of this conversation, the 10th and final installment in our Monk Dialogue series this spring.

We've been at this for a number of weeks, and I think it's really apt to end on the perspective, the rich perspective that you've given us from Beijing, China. So thank you, Victor Gao, so much for being part of tonight's dialogue. Thank you for having me. Thank you. A real pleasure. That was Victor Gao, joining us from Beijing, China. As I mentioned at the top of the show, we will be returning with 10 new dialogues this autumn starting late September. And this is the last of the 10 for this spring. And I want to thank some really terrific partners who have helped make this series possible. First, obviously, our funders.

This dialogue series would not happen without the support of the Peter and Melanie Monk Foundation. And its sister foundation, the Oriya Foundation. Both of these, as with the Monk debates, underwritten these dialogues as part of a public. good as part of their mission to encourage informed discourse on the big issues and challenges of the day. Special thanks also to Gluscan Chef and the Onyx Corporation that have come on as our presenting sponsors and will be returning to support our 10 new dialogues in the autumn. So thank you to Gluskin's Chef and Onyx. So I'm Rudyard Griffiths.

Thanks for watching. Good night. The Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by the Monk Foundation. Rudyard Griffiths and Ricky Gerwitz are the producers. The Monk Debates podcast is mixed by Steve Lewin. The president of Antica Productions is Stuart Cox. Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like us, feel free to give us a five-star rating.

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