The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep11: Tana Ramsay talks about the loss of baby Rocky and being mum to premature twins

Episode Date: November 26, 2020

Listen as Annie and Wendy hear Tana Ramsay’s honest and inspiring story of coping with baby loss and the birth of premature babies. Tana shares how she discovered, 'Talking is the best form of therapy, even though it doesn't come naturally to me because I'm very private,' giving hope to others who’ve suffered the same. TRIGGER WARNING: this podcast episode discusses pregnancy loss.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Welcome to Sweat, Snot and Tears this week, you lovely, lovely, lovely lot. I'm not feeling particularly lovely. I think maybe I've got a bit of lockdown blues.

Wend, what are you feeling? Well, I was about to comment, you just started the podcast with the biggest sigh I've ever heard. Oh no, I think the whole nation needs a bit of a pick-me-up, do you? Yeah, it does feel a bit mid-November, not particularly cheery blues, but we have someone lovely who might cheer us up. Exactly, we can always rely on our guests to cheer us up. This week we are joined by the lovely Tana Ramsey. Welcome Tana. Oh thank you for having me. How are you? We're okay. Now I must say I think you might win the prize for podcast guest with the most children that we've ever had. I know it's crazy isn't it? Five children. I think because there's such a big age gap it doesn't

feel like five um so yeah I feel like I'm cheating it's not like I had the first time when they were so close in age and it was chaos all the time so tell us how old they are now um Meg is 22 Jack and Holly are about to turn 21. Tilly has just turned 19. And Oscar is 19 months. And so are they all living at home or have you got some at home and some not? Obviously, Oscar's still at home because that would be weird. But the older ones, who's with you and who's not? Well, it's funny because they all keep coming back.

They sort of move out for a bit. Oh, they're like boomerangs as children, aren't they? I know, but I'm one of those mothers who just loves having them all at home. It's just, that's how I like it, a crazy house. So any excuse or if ever there's a sort of an, oh, I'm not feeling great. I'm like, oh, come home, come home. Your bedroom's still there. Like mother hen. I know. It's terrible, isn't it? Gordon's sort of saying to me, they need to get a little bit independent, sort of start doing, you know, their own thing. And I'm like, yeah, okay,

maybe next year. Yeah, not now. Not now. So we always kick off by asking our guests if there has been any sweat, snot or tears in their house this morning. Probably all three, actually. I like an honest answer oh our house is always noisy always crazy um always something happening Oscar's at the climbing phase at the moment so there's always bumps and tears um sweat probably someone will be doing something um going out for a run or something active hopefully um snot actually that might be the one we didn't have this morning. That's good. It's my least favourite of the three, actually. Yeah, I agree.

Now, I know that we have been lucky enough to secure you as a guest this week because you're working with Pampers to raise awareness of the work they're doing with parents of premature babies. Tell us a bit about your experience of prematurity. Well, Jack and Holly were born very unexpectedly, seven weeks early. I woke up on, it was actually the morning of Millennium Eve. I woke up. Oh, wow. What a day. I know. Crazy. I woke up feeling a little bit uncomfortable, slightly naively, not really thinking I was in labor. And then Gordon actually said to me, God, you were so restless last night. He said you were tossing and turning all night.

So as sort of the morning wore on, felt sort of more aches and pains, went to see the doctor and I was in labor. I think very naively. I was very young when I had them. I was 25 when I had the twins and had just sort of cruised through my first pregnancy with Megan so as you do when you're young you don't sort of listen to every ache and pain the way you do when you're pregnant when you're 45 so I went into labor and it wasn't going to stop so they were delivered that evening which you know I think more than anything it's the shock that you're happily pregnant, sort of bumping along nicely. Then suddenly you go in the same day to having having your baby and the baby is very swiftly taken away into intensive care.

And you're suddenly thrown into this world that that is is so alarming and you feel you have no control over. And from sort of safely having a baby in your tummy, and you feel you have no control over. And from sort of safely having a baby in your tummy, suddenly you feel useless. And in a way, bizarrely, your emotions are so heightened because you feel slightly guilty. What did I do? Why has this happened? You know, it's fantastic. I'm so excited to be working with Pampers and Bliss because it's a subject that I even now feel so emotional about, especially with the complication of the pandemic of parents not being able to go in there and feel that they can learn how to take care of their baby. You have to stand to one side and to not even be by the side of that incubator must just be so emotional well yeah

because it's hard enough when they're in an incubator and you can be next to them isn't it yes yes I mean certainly in my experience I was I was encouraged to uh I mean everything from from breastfeeding which was something I was so keen to do when when you have a baby early it's it's quite a struggle certainly or certainly I found breastfeeding, and you want your milk to come in, you have to hold the baby, all those things that when you have a full-term baby, you're told to do. So suddenly when you're in intensive care unit, and you're having to pump, and just all these things that suddenly you take for granted will come naturally. It's all so hard. So certainly when I started talking with Pampers and

I heard, you know, about the tiny premature nappies that they're doing and certainly the partnership with VCreate for the screens to be able to at least watch the babies. I mean, it's what a great idea. What an incredible initiative during these hard times. So tell us a bit about what happened with the twins. How little were they when they were born and how long were they in special care and things? They were, Jack was four pounds five, Holly was four pounds seven. They were born at 33 weeks. They were in intensive care for seven days and then they were in special care for a further two weeks. Jack was diagnosed with a hole in his heart. So he sort of needed slightly more monitoring.

Wow, I had no idea. Well, and you know, it's all these things that when you actually speak to people, apparently a hole in the heart, to me, that sounded like the most traumatic thing ever. It really did. But the staff was so calming. And it was something that corrected itself. There was no need for surgery or anything like that, but within the first year with medication, it corrects itself. And you're just clinging onto the staff who are suddenly these angels that are

looking after your most precious thing and teaching you how to sort of hold a little hand, or you can put your hand through one of the holes in the side of the incubators. All these things that just help you bond and help your emotions because you are all over the place. Yes. So one of mine, my daughter was born slightly prematurely, but it turned out she was born with pneumonia. So I have a bit of experience of it too. And I remember vividly actually watching the baby in the next incubator to her because the whole time Flo was there, he never had a visit from anyone. And it turned out that it was because he had parents who had five other children. They lived on the other side of London and they just couldn't be there. And I found that so traumatic to witness I think that's part of it isn't it it's not just that your baby is experiencing all of these things and you're worried for your baby you're seeing awful things aren't you you're seeing other people in distress other babies in distress other parents in distress it's quite overwhelming or at least I found it to

be that way did you well you you're sort of you're in this bubble and you you see other babies but you you're everyone tries to give each other privacy but you can't help but notice what is going on or wonder or you know the awful situation when you you know you go in and the baby has gone from opposite you you don't want to ask but you're you're all in this this really intense situation um and it's just it's heartbreaking it really is um it really is and i think that's why it's so impressive what pampers are doing with this technology that allows um family members to see the baby on a screen aren't they can you tell us a bit about that yes i mean it's if you have other children you're also leaving behind

at home i don't know a two-year-old a three-year-old another sibling because the the risk of infection is so great for these babies that in normal circumstances um only usually one parent two parents if you're lucky are allowed in so um with with pampers and v create and bliss what they're doing is that they're actually being able to have screens up so you can watch the baby from home to help feel close, to help the other parent maybe, because that's one of the things that is so pressurized is trying to keep your family together, trying to include everybody. You're torn in two. You want to be at home trying to keep everything normal and reassure everyone, but you want to be with your baby in that unit. So to be able to

actually include people or other family members on a camera to feel inclusive, I think that's what is so important and is helping to be creative by Pampers. So, you know, to help share stories, especially on social media, we're using the hashtag Pampers for Premies. And each time that hashtag is used, it's triggering a donation for the premature baby nappies and for these screens with VCreate for dongles and iPads. So we're just getting as much awareness as we can because the nappies themselves as well, I remember when Jack and Holly were born, they were laid literally on a tiny baby nappy,

but it wasn't sort of premature nappy as such. These nappies can fit babies at 1.8 pounds, which, I mean, if you see these nappies, they are just minuscule, but they're very cleverly designed because the other thing with premature babies is the skin is so delicate and this helps lock away the moisture helping to protect the skin it's got tags on it sort of all angles because the babies have so many wires attached as well just to make everything that little bit easier that little bit more comfortable and bliss of course is the the largest premature baby charity this is such a tough time anyway

emotionally mentally um and i i can only just imagine what what it must be like at this time having a baby itself and going through birth on your own is traumatic. But to then have your baby taken away and not be able to feel that you're part of that bonding, those first few hours, those first few weeks, is heartbreaking. It's really tough. So at what stage did you feel like you'd moved past the twins' prematurity? Or is it something that's always kind of stayed with you in some way, even now they're big and grown up and eating you out of house and home? Well, it's interesting, because, you know, emotionally, when you're a mom, I mean, everybody is different. But for a long time, I felt I felt guilty that I'd had them early. I tend to look back and sort of you almost beat yourself up over

certain things. Should I have done this? Should I have done that um and with Jack and Holly I was lucky enough that I somehow managed to pump and continue breastfeeding until they were eight months so I really felt that I was sort of trying to do my best to give them the best um and I think that helped me an awful lot but that was through trying to have as much sort of skin-to-skin contact as possible which is one of the reasons I really feel for mums at the moment because it's it's no it's no easy feat in normal circumstances let alone this but I think when they started sort of getting those sort of round fat chubby babies then I felt we were doing okay and we we were over that so you move from intensive care into special care which is a huge step and I think then because they're not in an incubator but they're sort of under

supervision everything gets a little bit easier but as I say the guilt I don't think it ever leaves you does it when you think you might have done something wrong as a mum I know and no matter what happens to your child you always take on the guilt of it, even if it's not really your fault, don't you? Well, I think that's part and parcel of being a parent. I know. I know. And when I, you know, we had incredible sadness back in 2016 when we lost a baby at 20 weeks pregnant. And, you know, even it's unbelievably hard. And, you know, even now I sort of think, had I done this, had I done that, you can't help but feel guilt and I think that is part of being a mum and it's how you try and handle that and I think the important thing is not to put your guilt on anyone else and it's not that you should feel guilty it's

just the way you handle your emotions so I think trying to sort of find a way that you can manage it and you can accept is something that is really important because as a mum, you also need to protect those around you. That's what I like to do. I have amazing support from everybody, but you also like to protect. Absolutely. That's what I was going to ask next is, so who did you turn to for support, obviously, with the twins being born premature and then more recently with your awful pregnancy loss? What did you find useful? Who did you find useful to turn to in those situations? I think one of the things that, you know, I found was so important was just certainly with the other children and with Gordon was just talking and talking because I think a lot of focus is is put on the mum but I think I was so aware of how much it affected everybody it's such an

immense shock and certainly when the twins were born as well suddenly you know we go from having a toddler at home to two premature babies as well so I I think certainly as a couple for us, and it's different for everybody, but for Gordon and I, Gordon is a great talker, as I'm sure people will laugh at, it's an obvious comment. We kind of suspected that. Certainly, he doesn't leave any stone unturned.

And I think certainly in these circumstances, that was brilliant. It was okay for me to cry cry to have a really rubbish day. I was going to say did that help you open up more? Yes. Well it did because I'm quite I think in comparison I'm I like to kind of keep things quite private but I've learned that actually to talk about it more was more helpful which is quite surprising as I say, because naturally, I do like to sort of keep things private. But in that circumstance, and also when I had Jack and Holly, hearing other people's stories really, really helped me. And that surprised me. So I made a pact with myself that I would talk about all of this because

all I did was cling on to other people's stories and cling on to the fact that were your premature babies okay are they okay now you know what were there any issues you found were they delayed in speech or walking or anything like that and likewise when when we we lost Rocky I was I was desperate to speak to people that had been through the same situation and did they go on and have another healthy pregnancy and the other thing also with me then that was sort of battling against me was I was older you know how old were you when you had a baby all these things and I think talking is one of the best forms of therapy that I've ever found so now I I open up and I want to talk about it um and you know that's why I want people to,

when they see that I've partnered with Pampers, I want people to share their stories with me because I think it really helps. I really found it helped and yet it didn't come naturally to me. I admire you hugely for being someone who's willing to talk about this because A, they are very tricky topics to talk about.

And B, as you say if you're if you're naturally a bit more of a private person it's probably not your first instinct but it does help people and it does matter on netmums we actually host the bliss forum so that parents of premature and sick babies can come together and talk and i know that it makes such an absolute difference i think one of the things about this Pampers campaign isn't just that it's about fundraising, and of course that's important, and we want to be able to donate as many nappies

and as many vCreate technologies as possible. But what we also want to do is just to let people know that you're not alone. It's so important, isn't it? It really is because I remember the night when I was laying in hospital, no longer pregnant and not having a baby to leave hospital with me. I just remember feeling so, well, it was just the most awful feeling.

This baby that you'd felt sort of moving was no longer there and you had nothing to take home and actually leaving the hospital and leaving our baby there was just excruciating. It was so hard. And then things happened that I never really realized would happen. Like four days later or three days later, I was in the bath and, you know, your milk starts coming in and you're like, oh, my God. But there were things that I had never thought about. But they're things that you can warn people about. And it just, it's nothing to be ashamed of. And I still look back

and think, if I'd done this, if I'd done that, would it have been different? And I'm always going to think that. But at the same time, you have to find a way of making peace. But it's okay to have a day, even now, even though I'm so blessed to have a little 19 month old it doesn't take away any of the pain of losing a little baby that you know would have been here with us now but it's okay to feel like that and it's okay to say I will never get over it but I will learn to deal with it. And did it make your pregnancy harder afterwards? Did you find you were just terrified and every twinge and every jump you were just thinking, oh God, is something gone wrong? Oh, totally.

Totally. I really enjoyed it and it was straightforward. But I didn't really, we didn't, I mean, we didn't announce it until I was six and a half months pregnant. Yes, I remember. That's right, yeah. And even at work, I was wearing, you know, big jumpers. And I think one or two people might have twigged, but no one, very politely, no one asked me. And I didn't talk about it at all.

And neither did Gordon or the children. But when I got to seven months, then I really loved every second. And I loved it all the way through. But I suppose I trusted it then. Yeah, you almost lose faith in your own body, don't you, when something goes wrong? You do. You do. And, you know, but it still felt so special. And so I felt so lucky.

But, you know, you just I think and funnily enough, it was the last week of pregnancy that I started getting really nervous again because you're like, oh, my gosh, I've got here. But I suppose I mean, still every day you get worried. You worry every time they sort of go out the room when you haven't got eyes on them. But yeah, but then I do that and Meg's nearly 23 and I still sort of tell me when you get to the end of the road. Tell me this. Tell me that. So, you know, it's it's all part and parcel, I think, of being a mum. And until I lost Rocky, I'd never had a miscarriage. And I suppose looking back statistically, that was quite rare to have four children and never to have had a fright. You know,

I'd had the twins early, but we were okay so you know when you start looking at this and as I say just talking and talking I've I've learned the value of that and I could never encourage people enough now just to talk about their situations because more than anything we can all help each other and um and that you know in pandemic, I think that is vital. We can talk. You might not be able to meet, but you can talk. And sometimes you don't even know the value of what you've said. Sometimes it can be the tiniest little nugget or comment,

but it can mean the world to someone else who's just been waiting to hear that very thing, can't it? Totally. Absolutely. I was going to ask, did it also add to the, I don't know what the word is, add to the awfulness that you were doing this in the public eye, that you were a well-known family? Would it have made it easier in any way if you'd been unknown? To be honest, I think the support that it gave us was incredibly helpful. And, you know, it is Gordon's life and therefore my life because it's, you know, he's my closest person in the world. So I think more than anything, the support and the people reaching out was incredible.

And I really needed that. So having had five babies, which was your best birth or which was your most horrific birth feel free to tell us yes we like a birth story tana i've um i've been produced it doesn't necessarily but we do um the first time with megan, I gave birth naturally. And I was in labor, it felt like about five weeks, but in fact, it was about 48 hours. And it just went on and on and on. But I was 23. I mean, God, that... You're supposed to fire them out at 23, surely.

Well, you'd have thought so wouldn't you but I made a real meal out of that one um and I remember afterwards being so exhausted and just wanting to have a shower and um it was the middle of the night and I had this baby in this cot next to me thinking well what do I do with her if I want to go and have a shower you know I'm standing on this ward and everyone is looking like they know what they're doing. And I was literally like, oh, my goodness, I really haven't got a clue. Second time round, obviously, was Jack and Holly. So they were in intensive care.

So and then Tilly was she was a cesarean like the twins. So she was probably Tilly and Oscar were probably the most straightforward, easiest. Jack and Holly was the twins. So she was probably, Tilly and Oscar were probably the most straightforward, easiest. Jack and Holly was the scariest. Megs was the most exhausting. They all have their pluses and minuses. They really do. They really do. So having been through these huge life events, what advice would you give to somebody else now now going through either situation a late pregnancy loss or a premature baby is talking is that your number one takeaway I think absolutely talking and just being totally honest about your emotions because

any feeling you have is fine I think there's so many things you can feel, you can never predict it and just really, really let people help you. Don't think you're alone. Don't think you're on your own and just reach out. And I think when you're not feeling okay, you have to have the confidence to talk about that. Whether it's you feel you can't bond with your baby, you're not feeling like you think you should be feeling. It's all OK. And just just ask for help. I think that's really, really important. And don't be too proud. And what about advice to friends and family? Because I know you can feel very redundant if you're kind of stood on the wings watching someone go through something like this.

What would you tell them to do to help what's the most important thing that supporters can do hard isn't it to know what you can i know i think it's it's a lot of it is i mean i remember my mum and my sister just doing so many practical things for me whether it was looking after after megan um or doing the shopping or cleaning or just things that you really don't want to have to think about. And just also just reaching out, send a message in the morning first thing, just contact, that constant contact and just doing things that even if it feels like it's behind the scenes is helping. It's that unheard support I suppose um and just just making sure just keeping in contact I think a lot of people think oh they need some rest let's let's give them some space

some people might want that but let them tell you that yeah so that people know they're not alone yes absolutely so now we have to ask we wouldn't be a net mom's podcast if we didn't ask is there going to be a baby number six oh god you're so yes i've heard you say yes but gordon say no so how are we going to resolve this one oh do you know i would so love another baby but i think i'm going to be thinking that when i'm in my 70s i don't think keep going tana keep i know i don't think i will ever say i'm done but i see i could have a baby but, I just couldn't have another toddler. See, I'll do babies, toddlers, but I don't want to be pregnant again.

I can't face that. Do you know the way I feel is when I had the older children, I had four babies in four years. It was so full on. That is hardcore, Tana. It is, but I was also in my 20s. Now having Oscar, although as much as I would love to have another one, I am kind of just totally loving and indulging in this, you know, there's one and it's one car seat, one pram, one this, one that. True.

And I would really love it, but I also need to thank my lucky stars. I am beyond blessed um the feeling I think if I was to say to the other kids oh you know everyone emotionally really went through it when we lost Rocky and when I was pregnant with Oscar we all were as worried as each other every step of the way. Every message and phone call, I think they were probably thinking, oh God. So I think everyone's feelings taken into consideration. I think we're just incredibly lucky. And if I was to be really sensible, I would just say, I think we're done. But I never want to say that. But that's what's logical. So I'm going to leave

it at that. You're such a lovely mum thinking about everybody else's feelings and all of it. So lovely to hear. Now, when it comes to around the house, are you good cop and Gordon's bad cop? Or is it the other way around? Oh, it's the other way around. He's got this thing. Okay, there's me thinking we're so super healthy, Oscar, eat all your lentils and this and that. And, you know, great diet. I turn around and Gordon's like at the fridge with chocolate buttons. And Oscar literally is skipping along the kitchen, almost eyeballing me going, look at what daddy's got. So that's a little snapshot of exactly what goes on in our kitchen

there's the killer line chocolate button now next question gotta ask who is the sweariest because you know who we think it is but are you actually the one f-bombing everybody in the house every five minutes i couldn't possibly answer that question i'll leave it up to your imagination i can't believe that a bad word would ever leave your mouth oh well there we go i'm gonna leave it at that because i love that you've got that image of me i think all the mums are the sweariest nationwide i think i might agree with you on that one yeah imagine if you were married to a chef i would like to know who cooks the most because you're not a bad cook yourself mrs ramsey are you and who cooks christmas dinner is it you or is it gordon well actually christmas dinner is

a bit of everyone gordon gordon sort of stands at the edge of the aisle and sort of telling us all what to do. Directing everyone. Actually the best person for doing a meal like Christmas or Sunday roast is Tilly. She's got it down to a fine art and I find her really relaxing to be around when she's cooking because she's very organized. She kind of has it as her Sunday afternoon and yeah she's the best one. Hold on, does this imply that you don't find your husband relaxing to be around in the kitchen it's like someone has sprayed oil over the entire kitchen there's flames there's oil there's mess there's kind of can you pass me this can you pass me that where's this where's that i mean he's only lived in the house for 20 years so no so might we see Tilly embarking on a cooking career uh no I think Tilly Tilly loves cooking um she's not going to be a chef no she just loves it and it's very natural to her but uh I think

she has other plans I'm going to come back in a second and ask you about lockdown Tana because lockdown with a toddler man that's got to be hard for. And we felt very relieved that all we've had to do is teach our kids a bit. A toddler in lockdown must be something else. Well, I have to strongly disagree with you because I felt sorry for all of you having to do schoolwork. Yeah, it was pretty hard for her, I'll give you that. Yeah, I mean, that is stress. During the first lockdown, Oscar learned to walk. He was 11 months, just coming up for 12 months when we went into first lockdown. He had everyone home watching him learn to walk.

So he thought it was fabulous. Yeah, he must have. Oh, loved it. Boys are like dogs. They just want feeding and exercise. So as long as I don't mind going out in the rain and wind, we're fine. And I quite like that. So the other thing I found was because I had to shut my business, we're a beauty salon, so I couldn't work. Actually having a toddler,

I have found it so helpful to have a routine. I really have. I think I'd have gone nuts if I, you know, we'd just all been floating around, not able to do anything. To have a child that keeps you in that routine and you have your time when they're having a nap to do whatever bits of work you need to do, I think has just given us a structure which I found really helpful. But you also have an extra magic trick up your sleeve. You're a trained Mont story teacher aren't you so you must know all the tricks of the trade when it comes to keeping a toddler occupied well i know it's different when they're your own though isn't it really it's um i think so but he um he's just at that stage where give him a saucepan a wooden spoon or a whisk and bits of tissue he loves it his favorite thing at the moment is the Hoover. So I think he's at quite an easy stage.

Or maybe it's the fact that it's just one of them. I've got to tell you, if you'd have come to me with a toddler, that word easy would not have come out of my mouth. Well, I'm sorry, my darling daughters, but it would not. Before we go, we have a couple of questions that we always ask our guests the first one is quite

a poignant one for you guys i would like to know what's for tea tonight please well tonight um i do this i got it from joe wicks wean in 15 it's um we love joe oh i love joe wicks um it's a vegetable and chickpea curry, which is really nice. It's very, when I say curry, it's not spicy, but it's all your leftover veg with some lentils and some chickpeas and tomatoes and coconut milk. Yummy. I usually do a batch of that.

It's great to freeze as well. And I'm doing it for Oscar with some salmon tonight. Very nice. You put me to shame. I'd quite like to be coming to your house for tea. And then our other question, some people love it, some people loathe it. Imagine you're tucking Wendy and I into bed tonight. Yes, it's weird, we know, we know.

And sing us your family lullaby because you know everyone has a song in their back pocket that they sing when the kids can't get to sleep I do and it's one that I used to sing to all of the other children as well and I don't know where it came from I think it might have been from like a um a Jack and Ori story on on CBeebies when they were little or something I have got the most terrible singing voice so I don't know if it's going to send you to sleep am I going to really sing to you yes oh god I'm going to cringe okay please don't laugh you got to go to sleep we're not we're straight so it's the time has come to say good night at the end of a lovely day we've had so much fun today tomorrow's just a dream away and now it's time to say good night at the end of a lovely day

have you ever heard anything so out of tune? I think because I was nervous, it was worse than usual. We've recorded a whole series of this, and no offence to any of our other guests, but I think you win. I think you win Best Lullaby. And do you know the really weird thing? It's that's what we sing in our house as well. Is it?

It is. It was like the bedtime song on cbb it was wasn't it yeah my singing is horrific so i might just play my kids you singing it from now on the words are so lovely aren't they they kind of say everything about the day you hope they've had do you know we've had many singers on this podcast who wouldn't sing us their lullaby tell us so you win thank Thank you. But you know, when you have kids, you don't really care how ridiculous you sound.

And that's the other thing I think about being an older parent is you just don't care. Yeah, you don't care. You just do what you think is right. And whereas before I would have kind of, if anyone had told me I was doing something wrong, I'd have been mortified.

And now I think, well, do you know what? It works for me. Now, Tana, can I just say a huge thank you you've been an absolutely fabulous honest real entertaining awareness raising guest I feel very honored that we had you to talk to us today thank you oh well I've really enjoyed it thank you to you both And thank you for having me. Can we come to Paris? It's lovely to meet you. And you. Really lovely to meet you. And both stay safe and lots of love to all your families.

Yes, and you. And give Oscar a big squeeze from us. Will do. Thank you. Take care, Tana. Thanks. Bye. Bye-bye.