The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep2: Michelle Heaton talks parenting in early menopause

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

The Liberty X singer now juggles life as a mum to two small children while being a spokesperson for menopause charities, having experienced early menopause due to the effects of her cancer prevention surgery. Listen as Michelle shares the hilarity and heartbreak of her unique parenting journey (and what to do with a fringe that has a life of its own!).

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. So we covered some pretty big topics this week. We did menopause. We did meningitis.

Breast cancer. And my absolute favourite, vaginal tightening devices with our wonderful guest Michelle Heaton. Okay, so today we are joined by the very glamorous Michelle Heaton. Welcome. Hello. I don't know if I would say glamorous. Oh, you look very glamorous to me. Michelle and her new fringe. Yes, I've got a new fringe and lots and lots of hair extensions

which took me about three hours to blow dry. So I don't think it's really apt being a mum because it's not every day I've got a three-hour spare. Would you say kids have to be a certain age before you can go with a fringe because you need a bit more hands-off time to do it? I don't know if it's kids being a certain age. It's me being a certain age

because I realise that my forehead moves a lot more and I've got less hair around the hairline. So I've realised that maybe a fringe is apt, but it takes more time. So it depends what your priorities are. Okay, very good. So as you know, our podcast is called Sweat, Snot and Tears. Tell us any sweat, snot or tears in your house today? Today, there was definite sweats by me trying to get ready for today.

Because I suffer from hot sweats now and again and it ready for today because I suffer from hot sweats now and again and it always comes on because I'm in menopause right um it always comes on when I'm anxious or then I realize oh my gosh oh my gosh the tax is actually here and I haven't finished my fringe so that kind of thing is the sweat. Snots yes AJ is now six and he picks his nose continuously but does he eat it about that he doesn't eat what I took him to the hospital to the doctors last night what about picking his nose I tell you why that's my threat I keep saying if you do that one more time I am taking you to the doctor because I keep threatening right so and I never follow through with all of my threats but he said something to me the other day and it's been a good six months now that his

fingers are not out of his nose and he said it's because he thinks there's something up there just in case you know you never know there is and I've missed a pee or something and he says he finds it hard to breathe and then I'm like oh my god he's got corona or whatever I'm just freaking out you know as a mum and because he's not to complain, Faith is melodramatic, she'll complain about everything and so I don't believe her she's probably got it but anyway AJ I have to leave so I did take him and of course he goes in to

the doctors after having an emergency appointment I'm so sorry NHS for wasting an emergency appointment however you gave it to me knowing what the symptoms were so I took him in and then he's like he giggles with the nurse and she's like what's wrong AJ mum's telling me off the pick of my nose mum why that's what boys do thanks that's it game over so I'm done so that's it that's it that's it all that needed

to happen did she even look up his nose she did She kind of did after I asked her because she said he looks fine. He's got pigment in his cheeks. He's not breathing heavily. There's nothing in his airways. I'm like, I'm thinking, just look up his nose, please, for me.

Please find something up there. And I'm thinking, and I'm like thinking, okay, I need to make something up. He's saying that he's struggling sometimes breathing. I'm thinking, he's not really struggling.

I know he's not, but please just look up it for me. So she looked up it. She went, AJ, there's nothing up there. Next time mummy tells you to stop picking your nose, you just say, that's what kids do. And I'm thinking, I'm going to wring your neck in a minute. Because that's it. He's going to continually pick his nose.

Did she offer any advice about how to get him to stop? Tell him to stop. Is that it? Well, that works. Yeah, exactly. So that's the snot. And as with the tears, I'd say it was more faith. Because this morning we told her a massive, big, life-altering moment where we're not going to move house.

She didn't want to move in the first place. Right. Okay. And she's going to have a new bedroom amazing potentially but still drama of course because she figured that her bedroom wasn't gonna be as mummies and daddies as big as mummies and daddies right did you explain that there's two of you and one of her absolutely and she's a kid and you're growing up absolutely still not buying it no because she's eight and eight year olds need-olds need everything. Oh, God, don't they? And there you go. So how did it end?

Not great. Because she thinks she's the same age as me. Right. And I think I'm the same age as her. Your daughter sounds very like my daughter and Wendy's two daughters. So my daughter's eight as well. Okay. And the histronics and the drama are just...

We had a drama about bun donuts this morning why? because I'm rubbish how do you put hair in a bun donut? I don't know and I was supposed to know at 8.20 when we leave at 8.25 and she suddenly decided that she needed

a bun donut with a net and a scrunchie yeah I didn't know how to do that, so we had full-on... So tonight, are you going to watch YouTube videos on how to do that, so that you're ready for tomorrow? That's what Faith does. She watches her own YouTube videos

of how to do her hair. So she does it herself now. Really? I think definitely do that, Wendy. Devolve the job to her. Yes. There's one less thing for you to do. Yeah, apart from when she does gymnastics competitions.

In fact, yesterday morning, she had a competition during the day at school. She competed with another school in the district. And I had to do a French plat. Now, I was up at 6 a.m., right? Oh, you're a better mum than me. And I got an entrance that you have to have gel and everything. And I got all these bits out. And then I'm Googling the YouTube things.

Because I've done French flats before. But you know when you start to panic. And then I start to do it at about eight. And we've got to leave at half eight. And AJ's not ready. I've got to do the breakfast. The fringe. The fringe.

All of that stuff. No, mummy. I wanted two. And I'm like, two. Okay. So, hang on. I'm thinking, okay. So, it needs to be parted so that means twice

the work she has two um what's the word crowns yes so it's virtually impossible do it mummy like and I'm like anyone else in the world you just say no because it's our kids I'm okay so did you do it yes what did it did it look like? Amazing. Well, I think so. She complained that one side was wonky. I think you should launch a new YouTube channel just doing hair. Trust me. Sorry, as I swallow my water, I'm not that good. Honestly, I think I fluked it once.

But yeah, I've told her if she wants certain things done by her hair, not that it always works. I kind of now have a rule. The night before we go to bed, I need to know these things because now that she's in middle school. That's a good tip. Get the hair agreed before bedtime. We don't always get told what happens in middle school the next day now. A lot.

And it's not the school's fault. It's just that I can't keep up with the amount of things that are happening. And she goes to a state school, but still there's loads of things. There's maybe, I mean, I pay for tennis lessons. I don't know what day they're on. There's PE. There's two days a week. They keep changing it.

And then they have to have their kit ready. And some days she's, I don't want to wear pants today. I want to wear my, I don't know, my trouser bottoms. Okay, well, you could have told me that last night. It's all of these things. I need to know the night before. But obviously it doesn't always happen. Of course it doesn't. I need to know the night before. But obviously it doesn't always happen. Of course it doesn't.

No, of course it doesn't. Of course it doesn't. Okay, so on the kind of health tip about going and getting things removed from noses that weren't even there, you were rushed to hospital recently on holiday. What happened? I was. I was in Bali. Oh, nice.

It was. It was. It was. oh nice it was it was it was um i mean i know i'm away um off and on for work and it all looks really glamorous on social media but in reality i've had to like kind of force huey down to the tea and tell him exactly what's going to happen that day and he's amazing but i usually have to do child care and make sure that all of the, every single thing's ready. The uniform, the hair, you know, whatever. No, but that's a mum thing.

Yeah. And I'm in and out. If you're going away for a day, you've got to get everything ready. Yeah. So if I'm away to Dubai for one gig, it might be only two nights, but it's all of the prep. It's a military operation, basically. And you come back to all this washing. Bali was the first time that I took time out for me.

Nice. And I was away for 10 days, what it was supposed to be. And Hugh gave me full blessing. Wow. Although now I'm paying for it. So the first time since you've had the kids that you took some proper mum time out? In a big chunk? Yes.

That's amazing. Well done you. Yes, I believe so. That's brilliant. I'm so jealous. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to argue because obviously I do gigs and I'm away. But that's work.

It's not the same. It is. It is. Because I don't work a lot. So when I do work, I'm usually away. Yeah. So this was for me. It was in a sanctuary just for women.

And it was amazing. And I usually get gastroenteritis wherever I go for some reason. I had it. And I just suffered from dehydration and I had to go on a drip and so you finally carve some time out for yourself and you end up on a drip yeah it's about flipping right for months that's pretty much what happens every time and then I bet you were just getting well when you got home wasn't even well yeah I had to stay two more days because I wasn't able to fly oh really, really? And then I was really, really ill on the way home.

Oh, God. On the flight. That's really unpleasant. And I'm trying to come back a better me. You know, and you stagger through the door. And I'm literally going to keel over. You come back a husk. Yes.

And everyone's, like, excited I'm back. And I'm thinking, where's my bed? But, of course, I missed the kids and my husband. But right at that second, I was going to literally keel over. I also spied on social media, though, that you got a new tattoo in your eye. I did.

Let's see. Right, describe it, because our netmums love a tattoo. This is a, I suppose, a universal symbol for... So it's to give thanks to the universe so it's not about a particular god or religion because i'm not very religious at all it's just to give thanks to a higher something or whatever it might be give thanks to that glass of water in front of me so it's that's what it is. And I had already had a tattoo on my wrist of Faith, AJ and Hugh and a couple of, sorry, three love hearts, but I never had myself.

Not that you would write your own name, but the symbol has an M into it. So it was kind of apt that it fit into that whole thing. There you go. Was it painful? Nah. I've been through worse. Childbirth or tattoo? Which is worse?

Oh, um... I've got a tattoo. I would say that tattoo was worse. Tattoo removal would be worse. Oh, have you had that? Oh, see, I've not had removal. What does that feel like? Worse.

Why? How, though? Because they're just getting rid of it. It's like being burnt, apparently. Really? It's like being burnt repeatedly with a cigarette. Yes. Oh, how lovely. Not that... That's what I that's what i mean yes it's awful oh i had no

idea god the things you learn on this podcast so if we had to describe your work right now i guess we'd say you're a menopause spokesperson one of so how would you describe yourself i always like this question okay well i mean i wouldn't cast it as work because I don't get paid to do what I talk about. But it's your passion. It's something that I'm really passionate about. Yes, I'm really passionate about getting it into education and into, I suppose, an employment environment so that people are more aware of what every woman will be going through

in different stages so let's let's go back a step and say how did you end up in this role even if you don't see it as a job

how did you end up talking about this yeah for anyone who's landed from Mars and doesn't know the story can you give us a brief recap okay

brief recap would be about eight and a half years ago. So you'd had... No, I hadn't had faith just yet. Okay. I found out that my dad carried the BRCA2 gene, which is the cancer gene that basically increases the risk of breast and ovarian cancer. Yes.

And then male breast cancer and testicular cancer. And it's 50 50 chance whether he passes it down yeah um and i was it was kind of at the point where everyone was unaware of it you know angelina jolie hadn't had it yet that kind of thing and then i got tested after i had faith did you request the test or did i say you recommended it? No, nothing was recommended. It was a little, it was like an informal letter from the NHS saying, do I want to be tested? Okay. Which I hadn't replied to in six months.

Right. And then when I had faith, I found out, without being really aware of it all, that if I did have it, then I could pass it down to her. Yes. And if I wasn't tested, she would never be tested if you oh okay yes yeah because it has to be a direct maternal link so even if my dad have it had it she wouldn't be off the test without you having the test yeah so you felt a sense of responsibility yes so then I was tested six weeks after she was born. And then six weeks later, I got the results and it was positive. And how did that feel?

Oh, don't make me cry. But 12 weeks in, you're a blubbering wreck anyway. You've got no sleep. Everything hurts. Your hormones are all over the place. And you're bursting with love for this tiny little thing. And she was on my knee. And we had the results at Great Ormond Street Hospital,

which was difficult going through, you know, leaving, seeing all of these sick kids. And Faith's not sick. And I'm not sick, but being told all of that. My husband was there, obviously. And it was just, the whole thing was a bit of a blur. I didn't really know much about it, but obviously we got told a lot of information.

And then I immediately made the decision to have a total mastectomy. See, I'm fascinated by that. It was immediate. It didn't take ages for you to reach that conclusion. No, I'm really an all-on-often kind of person, hence the tattoos. That morning I woke up and thought I wanted that tattoo, so I went and got it. I just knew that the risks were too high at 85%,

and they told me, because they do like the family tree, and they told me that my um my grandma and her mum had breast cancer in their late 30s so they take that into consideration yeah and um and I just thought what do I need my boobs for anyway really I mean look it wasn't about a boob job where I was going bigger I haven't I was very adamant about that um it was it was just that I would have obviously um not been able to breastfeed if I had any more kids um but I thought that was like the least of my problems if as long as I'm still here and at that point screening wasn't as um perifilant as it is now yeah okay so then you went on to have your son. Yes. And then you made some more decisions.

Yes. So pre giving birth to AJ or actually conceiving, we decided that the risks of ovarian cancer were also too high because my grandma and her mum both had ovarian cancer in their early 40s. So they, again, take that into consideration so we decided that we were probably going to give it another year or two and then have and then I would have the total hysterectomy or my ovaries removed at that point um and but we weren't trying to get pregnant because I remember I was on tour for the big reunion and I said to Hugh, right, let's try after because the last thing I want to be is heavily pregnant on the big reunion

and without going into too much detail I was working so much that year I remember there was one day in Bancamp and that was the only day The one hit wonder That was it and boom, got pregnant with AJ It was meant to be

It was meant to be so we took that as a sign to get things moving so i was eight months pregnant when i did the big reunion christmas tour delightful amazing right i felt ridiculous but then little aj comes along um and then i had my total hysterectomy six months after that because i had to wait. Which was more gruelling for you, the double mastectomy or the hysterectomy? Without a doubt, the hysterectomy because it was always a talk about just taking the ovaries out, which would be in keyhole. It was still recovery and I still would have went into menopause um but they had said that because of my two c-sections they weren't sure where all of the organs were right because everything moves around it does they don't tell you that when

they're ripping out a kid and you know they stitch you back they're not bothered where the ovaries are because they're still attached they just stitch you back up so there was a chance i would wake up and not be able to move for six weeks as opposed to the next day. So I had to make a decision because Hugh was way locked. I've got two young kids. I needed to know what I was going to wake up to in effect. Yeah, as a parent, you need to be prepared.

It's almost, yeah, you'd rather be prepared, but it'd be worse than not be prepared. Yeah, but also you were already in a situation where you were doing disaster planning. Of course. So if you're going to disaster plan, you might as well do the whole thing. Yes. And be done. Yes.

And get it sorted. Yes, absolutely. But it's major surgery. It was, yeah. It was, yeah. I mean, life changing because of my body and the way it looks. But set that aside for a second. I can't even explain menopause and everything.

And how quickly does it start? So, like, you wake up, you've had your hysterectomy. When do you start to notice that you're... It's really weird because it's instantaneous. Serious. But they put in an... Well, I had an implant put in because I was so young of oestrogen and testosterone...

Well, oestrogen at the time um to replace what my body would normally make losing okay but sorry but I didn't obviously you don't know right I'm thinking I'm going to wake up and think I'm like oh who's this but it's not like that it doesn't hit you like that it's not instantaneous it's something that creeps up on you now and again and um and and I suppose over the years it's got a lot worse a little bit um I'm slowly getting to grips with it a little bit more now but it got worse I think because I'm trying and testing different levels of hormones to get myself right but I don't think you're ever going to be right because what you think is right is your old you.

Right. I think it's really difficult because I want my old me and it's gone. And do you still feel that? It's like saying goodbye to her. Do you still feel that? Yeah. That's very emotional.

But I think it changes a lot. I think, am I right in what you're saying is how you felt two years ago is different to how you feel now and different to how you'll feel again in two years because the hormones keep changing? Yeah, kind of. You see, there isn't any right answer because everyone's hormones in their body initially is different levels anyway. So it's not like you take a magic pill and then you're done. Everyone has different effects and not everyone will have a bad effect from menopause.

Like I'm not disastrous. There's worse people out there than me. I think for me, I'm struggling because I'm dealing with the two kids that are irritating me as well. So I suppose my irrational behaviour is heightened. So that's not fair on the kids. And it's only after I scream and shout when really I could be more calm, but then every mum's the same as well where where do you then go it's just being a mum or it's hormones or it's

because he's not picked up his sock again whatever it might be where do you say it is it's difficult would you say the effects for you were more emotional then or more physical which did you struggle with more oh definitely emotional and mental yeah I'd say I'd say physical um it's not pleasing but I haven't really been hung up you know like weight shifted and certain areas are puffier and bigger but that's not the be-all and end-all for me. Note she's probably the skinniest person I've ever met. No, no. Do you know what? I have struggled with weight. I do fluctuate. It might not be

apparent to the naked eye but it is to you. But if you know it matters. And it's how you feel about yourself. And then that has a knock-on effect with anxiety as well. But I think things like lack of sleep has a knock-on effect in general to everybody's well-being and I've had a lot of lack of sleep and an irritability hot hot sweat usually at night I wake up maybe an hour after I fell asleep and I think it's time to

wake up because my body's woke me up and I'm lying there and I'm sweating and I want to cry. And then, like, he was knocked out because he sleeps really well and I've got to change my pillow and my covers. And it doesn't happen all the time. It's not always that bad. But I'd say at least once or twice a month I'm in that scenario. But I suppose mentally and emotionally, it's how do you recognise something that just bulldozes you, but then might not be always that.

We have a right to be really annoyed when, you know, when something really upsets us. Like, our kid's running away from us in a car park. Why can't I share with them? I guess how it normally works is that your children would be older when you go through the menopause so most people aren't having to deal with this double whammy of little kids and hot flushes and anxiety and all of the things that come with it so are your kids aware of the issue um yeah i've never heard it from them but how far do you go because obviously for faith well for both of them they may be

potential carriers of the brackish yes well how do you tackle that we didn't mean to set you off it's incredibly hard i'll share a little bit here so in my family my mum has had breast cancer three times and one of her sisters three times. And we've been through the testing that you've had. And actually for us, we've tested negative for BRCA. But what they've said is there clearly is a gene in your family. They're just calling it an unknown gene. So I know a bit about having to make these horrible decisions about having tests and whether you tell kids about it or not. It's incredibly, incredibly difficult, isn't it?

Yes. Oh, poor Michelle. Do you know what? It's not making any excuses. I've got a bit of a dummer on me because Faith got told before I told her. Oh, dear. How did that happen?

Oh, well, you know, I used to be a pop star. It's hard. Oh, God, it wasn't like someone at school or something, was it? So it was taken out of your hands? Yeah. So it's, yeah, she came on one day and said, did I have an operation on my boobs? You know, things like that.

How old was she? Oh, I can't remember now. But little, because she's not that big. Yeah. I'd say it was a good couple of years ago because it was when we wrote the book

it was it's just difficult because I'm dealing with when's the right time and then I'm fighting social media and the fact that it's everywhere

and all the siblings and she's old enough to start looking at stuff so I've always decided and so has Hugh obviously it's a joint decision that we're open.

And if she knocks me, oh, wash my boobs. You know, when we had an operation. So it's just a thing. Yeah, everyday normal thing. Yeah. And then AJ's now coming to terms with it because he knocked me once.

And it doesn't hurt, but I can feel a knock. And, you know, I don't want anything to happen. So then, and then Faith goes oh remember AJ when we had an operation on her boobs

and AJ was sorry mummy that's heartbreaking but you know it has to be I don't want it to come to a point where you go sit down I'm going to tell you everything

I completely agree I'm not a fan of the big sit down no no the big reveal it's not cool and I've kind of been open because she has

asked well i need two mummy and i said maybe baby and then obviously tried to hold back the tears um but but then i say but this was a long time ago and things have evolved already oh massively i remember when i when i went in to make so my risk has been put at 30 not 85 as high as yours and and i went to talk to the breast surgeon about it and saying you know with a 30 risk would you recommend a mastectomy and all of that stuff and i had my daughter with me who was at that stage like a tiny tiddler baby lying in a pram and then i got upset and said and what about her and he literally waved his hand in the air and he went oh for god's sake he said by the time she's grown up this won't be an issue at

all there'll be a solution for this yeah and I felt so relieved yes it felt like the weight of the world yeah even after about three years of my mastectomy um screening had got better and maybe I didn't necessarily need it um so but it was at that point in time but that was nobody can recommend yeah it was the right decision for me and where she is in 10 years time oh we just totally won't yes no exactly exactly and how did she react then when you said yeah you might did she take because it was an everyday conversation she's just really weird she's like okay she i don't know what it is she's just i i look at her thing and i think if you hadn't come out my body you're not my child i don't understand she's just we all have this yeah i know like she's my best friend but my my worst enemy and i think

that's a girl thing or maybe an elder thing yeah she pushes me so much they know exactly which rut is the best and then you're longing for them to love you and then you you're like what am I supposed to do nothing

and I'm like why are you talking to her like what like that just say sorry properly sorry no that's not sorry properly

she knows something you're actually making me feel so much better because my daughter is very like that. And it's been really bothering me lately. I've been thinking, my God, what have I done wrong? How old is she six? Do I not relate to her properly?

Is there something wrong with me? But actually hearing you talk about this is making me feel a lot better. It's about, I suppose, understanding them. And listen, I don't understand mine at all. And I don't adhere to this. But in our day, the way that we spoke to our parents, we would never. But they're living in a different age where they know no different.

Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it. So it's about relating to the way that they're growing up and the way that they're feeling. Because they're all feeling more emotional and attacked by the parents. Because we expect them to behave the way we did and they're not going to. It's still hard to accept. I was going to say that. And I don't know what to do.

In a way, it's nice that they're bringing, well, it's amazing that they're being brought up in an era where they have a voice. And that kids, you know, kids views are... Really? Just for the record, we're shaking our heads here. Annie is spouting off the bad voice. We would hate to see a return to the Victorian...

No, totally. Children should be seen and not heard. We'd never want that. But yeah, I understand that it's a challenge. But I want them to have a voice with someone else, not necessarily always with me. Yes, it's always me. It is.

She's so nice to Daddy. Daddy can do no wrong. And is your experience that AJ is very different? Because my son is so different to my daughter. Yeah, absolutely. But he's now six and he is, he's very, very attentive and loving. But he's obsessed with his Switch or gaming system. And he's only six, but you show me a six-year-old these days that doesn't

have something and it comes to a point where we to get him off it's it's a full-on breakdown so how do you manage it then have you got screen time rules in your house i'm always i do so they're allowed it once they're up they they get ready for school. I always lay out their clothes the night before. And they get ready for school by themselves now. Brush their teeth, do their face. I'll always check them, obviously. And then they're allowed their iPad until I've made their breakfast. So maybe about 20 minutes, whatever it might be.

And that's it. And then when they come home from school, you see homes from schools erratic these days. So clubs. Yeah, clubs or play dates. So there's clubs or play dates. So there's no real, real rule. It's more that I will allow it when I'm cooking the dinner because otherwise I can't cook dinner.

And it's unfortunate that that's the day and age that we're living in. But like, it's all well and good. These keyboard warriors at home going, let them play a game. Okay, you try and let them play a game without them making you play it with them. So then dinner doesn't get made. All of a sudden, they can't play snakes and ladders because they don't know how to play it.

Mummy, you have to play it with me. And I'm thinking, well, I'm going to need to make the dinner. So it's just difficult. It has become a babysitter, but I think that there should be rules. I don't always adhere to it, but I do think that two parents should be on the same page.

And are you both on the same page? No. No. I love your honesty. No, no. What does he think and what do you think? Do you know what? He thinks the same as me. He just doesn't do the same as me. Are you a bad cop?

Oh, of course. Absolutely. And I'm not saying that I'm right but he's fun daddy he's you see because he doesn't i suppose like i'm not bagging him out he's amazing but because i suppose i'm thinking about the mopping of the floor or the hoover or whatever it might be he has more fun time with them and so that has an imprint on their memory i'd love to have more fun time with them but I can't live in filth so I don't know what the right balance is yeah there you go so going back to the menopausal thing for a minute you were talking about how it's harder because your kids are younger and you know we all have mornings where we want to throw their school bag at them because they won't get ready for school or whatever and one of my good friends is in early menopause and she calls it her m&ms so she says she's having the mad

ammonies and it's all to do with menopause and it's usually to do with kid related triggers so do you get them and how do you handle them? It usually is all kid-related triggers, actually, if I'm honest. I'd say about 90% of them are. Husband-related as well? Sorry? Husband-related as well? Oh, yeah, that as well, of course. I'm trying not to be too hard on him because he's a great guy.

But it usually is kids, in fairness. And I try and be calm. Mummy's not going to shout today. And I'm thinking in my head. Tomorrow I'm not going to criticize them at all. Yeah, and I'm like, I's not going to shout today. And I'm thinking in my head. Tomorrow I'm not going to criticize them at all. Yeah, and I'm like, I'm not going to do this today. We're not going to argue today. We're going to be calm.

Would you like to get ready for school? No. Are you going to get up? Don't want to go to school today. Okay, no worries. Okay. And I'm thinking what to do, what to do. Come back up to them and say,

Faith, are you going to get up ready for school in a minute? Okay, but in a minute we what to do, what to do? Come back up to him and say, Faith, are you going to get ready for school in a minute? Okay, but in a minute we have to go, Faith. And I'm like, and then it gets louder and louder. Get out now, otherwise you're going to be late for school again. And everyone's looking at me. All right, Mum, you don't have to shout. And I'm thinking, what I did, because you got me to that moment. I don't think it's always menopause oh no that is

a mad moment um so it's hard to differentiate to be honest yeah it must be it must be it must be hard as well though you just mentioned there that um everyone's looking at you if you're late as a mum who's instantly recognizable do you feel under more pressure than the average mum i mean i must bring up the uh really hideous situation that you were found in where you were dealing with your kids having meltdowns and there were people filming you i mean it's hard enough being a mum as it is without that pressure on top that must have been hellish it's not ideal i've got to admit um um and I am aware that I think that things are exaggerated in people's you know um in people's minds if I am like oh I do yell oh look see I told you she was a bad mum

or whatever um and it's not it's not great I'm going to admit but are you aware of it all the time or just sometimes um I am I'm I play it down because there's most mums that aren't like that and I can see that they're scared to even look because they think that I think that they're looking so it's it's I've got that side of it as well where I think some some people are worried about talking or or even looking to a normal mom which i am at school in case they think i think they're talking to me because i'm in a band or it's like you can't win no you can't win so as but that's parenthood yeah you can't win anything i can just be as open as i can be if i'm late i'm late if i turn up I turn up always in a cap and it's got nothing to do with animals um to being you know um um hidden or anything it's literally because I haven't done

my fringe and that's pretty much it I love the way the fringe is like your third child it really is I know it's killing me but that's every we've all had that. It's a, you know, classic supermarket meltdown. And that's always terrible because menopausal or not, you get the sweat. You get that creep that goes up your neck. They're laying on the floor. And then usually some 60 year old comes up to you and goes, well, in my day. That's crap whether you're famous or not. But then to know that someone is

filming that and then it's on the internet and people are talking about it it must have just been hideous yeah because what you want to do is grab them by the ear you don't get up now and say something you're not really going to do but but you but like get up what do you do you can't touch them you can't drag them by their feet they're not going to get up. What do you do? You can't touch them. I can't drag them by their feet. They're not going to get up. It's a lose-lose situation in general. And then sometimes we are late for school. And I want to say to the teachers, it's because she wouldn't get out of bed or get ready.

And then maybe get up earlier. And I'm thinking, oh God. Okay, really? We have got up earlier. I was up at six o'clock doing a big deal today you know it's um but everybody goes through it everybody yeah you don't have to be famous to be mum shamed you know what i mean like we've all felt the glare of people in the street when the kids screaming in the buggy or whatever and there was this little old lady when chloe was first born and it was

a really hot she was born in september and it was a really hot she was born in September and it was a really mild October and I'd walked up to the doctors for jabs or something she was in her pram thing and this little old lady peered in and I thought she was gonna say something really nice and she went not even a hat what did you say I cried oh you see you see, that's it. That's what I do, I cry. Did she see you cry? Yeah. And did she say sorry? No, she just tutted a bit more and toddled off. Yeah. People just don't realise the effect their words have, do they? Do you find that a lot on social media as well? Yes. People hiding behind social media and saying things they'd never say to your face. Yeah, I think it's difficult because, you know, you don't want to read negative comments.

But unfortunately, for some reason, as soon as you click on to social media, the negative one seems to stand out and ball. Leap out of the page. And it's usually nonsense. But I think the only time that I really comment, because there's a few, is when they've misunderstood the connotation of what I'm trying to say or have in that. Well, actually, this is it. Because context is so hard to convey in like a sentence, isn't it? Yes, or a photo. Or a picture. Well, if I had the money, I'd get that done too.

And I'm in menopause like you, but I can't. And I'm thinking, well, hang on, actually it was free. And it wasn't free because I'm famous. She's actually my friend. And she qualified as doing eyebrow tattooing years before I was famous. And I've known her for years. And I went, and I want to do it for her and see how amazing my friend is. And that was it.

Oh, no, I didn't mean like that. But if we all had money and then and then you just well now you're taking it somewhere else but then you've gone down the rabbit hole

and then I've gone down the rabbit hole and then you wish you'd never said anything do you try not to read the comments how do you handle it what's the best way

to stay sane I read them now and again but I don't really read them that much anymore I've come off Facebook I felt like it wasn't really I felt like it was just taking up a lot of time.

And it was a personal one. And I figured that if anyone's my real friend, they have my number. Yeah, I'm a big on that. And I've never thought about that before. That's quite a wise thing to think about. And then how really wise... But you're on Insta.

I follow you on Insta. Yes. How much time does that take? I'm not probably as proactive as a lot of people to be honest um now does it feel like part of the job or do you actually just quite like doing it anyway it's definitely part of the job in general um but um and that's the way that the world is however i i don't really mind it because it's it, I try and put things up that are actually relatively real without any Photoshop.

Like a carrot in the bath. Like a carrot in the bath. Oh my God, thank you. I know, I loved that. Who does that? You, clearly. My manager's outside. I eat in the bath as well.

And she's like, and then sometimes Ali, she's outside listening and she's like, oh, it looks great in the moment. You've got some beautiful pictures. And then I put up a carrot in a bath. And she's like listening and she's like oh it looks great in the moment you've got some beautiful pictures and then i put up a carrot in a bath and she's like oh no it's multitasking you gotta have a bath you gotta eat you can wash your hands eat a cream bun don't eat a carrot i'm trying i'm trying to be healthy at the minute it's terrible but i think the thing is is that people don't understand with social media is we don't see dms unless we follow them right so now and again when i do look at my direct messages yeah on instagram now and again i say

because i'm aware that about 10 or 12 a day are usually women asking for help what they're going through and it pains me because i can't keep taking on lords because I don't know all their answers and I'm not a specialist. Do you have a route that you refer them to? Yeah, is there somewhere you always refer them on to? It's difficult because, again, when you get into conversation, then unfortunately it's more and I want to give more.

And then I'm the kind of person that gives more. So then you're up till two in the morning. Yes. Someone trying to help you. Yes. But then when you don't reply, I get hate. They get nasty. They get very nasty.

And I can't keep doing it because it takes a lot of energy away from my family. Yeah. And me, when I'm struggling. And it's a lot of pressure because, my family and me when I'm struggling. And it's a lot of pressure because, like you say, you're not a doctor. Yes, I say the wrong thing. Yeah, what if you said the wrong thing? Do you work with any charities? God, loads of different charities.

And I do a lot of, I suppose, speaking events for menopause in general. But then not everybody gets directed to the right charity because it depends on, it's not just a charity they need directed to. Maybe they need to go and see their doctor or they need a counsellor or they need better hormone therapy. You can't help everyone.

Yeah, you can't. It's not as easy as saying, you could talk to that person. It's what works for that person. Yeah, and what their issue is, right. Yeah, you can't. It's not as easy as saying, right, you could talk to that person. It's what works for that person. Yeah, and what their issue is, right? Yeah, exactly. That's really hard to stay on top of. Really, really hard. Now, Wendy, I'm going to throw the next question over to you because I know you're dying to ask this one. Vaginal tightening devices. I have to ask.

It was a lot more pleasurable than I had imagined it would be. Really? This is what I want to know. Come on, spell. Well, I mean, I suppose I've been very open with incontinence after the kids, regardless of having C-sections, it just all kind of lets it all go. Wendy and I talk about this often. We do.

Yeah. You know, and with the kids being young, there's lots of flip-out parties and trampoline parties and so on and i'd usually be the one going straight in there for an hour and a half and i still think i am well then after a few minutes i'm not um and then you know i am 40 and in menopause and i've had the operations and so on and so forth and And the list could go on. It's a big worry for me. And it's not the outside.

It's the inside that counts, I think, because a lot of the inside controls what happens on the outside. And they, you know, the product came along and offered help without it being a campaign. And I tried it. And in fact, Ali, my manager, was downstairs in my living room when I was upstairs using it. Where is she going with this? I know. I'm getting a bit nervous.

And she texted me and it vibrated. How was it? Get away. Leave me alone. Just let a bit nervous. And she texted me and it vibrated. How was it? Get away. Leave me alone. Just let me do this. What does it feel like? What do you want me to say? It's in my vagina.

But it did actually really help. So describe it to us. Without it being invasive. What does it look like? Is it like a tampon? No. You wish. What does it look like then? Oh, what do you? No. You wish. What does it look like then?

Oh, what do you mean? I can't see it in my head now. I can't break it down. I can't. I don't know. It's a plane. I don't know. What type of piece of string?

How long is a piece of string even? It's like a small hair curler. Okay. Oh. Right? I don't know. You put me on the spot. I'm trying to see it in my mind and now I can't see it.

She's having a flush now. I am. It's like a small hair curler. Okay. Ish, yes. And you put it up there? Yes, with a little bit of gel. And then what do you do?

Press the button. And lay there and think of England? Or do you have to clench? No, no, no. It's the whole point is that it's like infrared signals that it pulses and it just warms up very slightly it's actually you really it's not it's no pain it's very comfortable you don't feel it and you take 20 minutes to yourself so it's great it takes 20 minutes well yeah yeah yeah i think there's different levels and oh yeah and then there's

yeah yeah i mean we're talking about i did this a year ago now, but it's done what it needs to do. And then you go back to it in time if you need to. So it's not something you need to do every week, for example. Oh, okay. And what effects did you notice? Well, that I wasn't weeing when I jumped on the trampoline helped. Nice, okay. Yeah, I think that was pretty much my main concern.

And I suppose I don't really want to go into... Is it expensive? Oh gosh, now you're testing me. I'm not sure the exact price, but it's a lot less money than it would be if you went to... To go and have surgery or whatever.

Yeah, if you went to... Because I think it has the same levels of effectiveness that it would do if you went to a consultant, for example. Like a posh clinic. Yes, a posh clinic. Yes, yes. So it's the first thing that's on the market that has that.

And it's a lot less invasive than having any kind of treatment, right? I don't want to be, you know. Wow. I don't want to be down there right now. Exactly, I've had enough of that. Yeah, you have. I think you've done your time. Yeah, there you go.

I love it. Okay, well, we'll know exactly if I've had enough of that. Yeah, you have. I think you've done your time. Yeah, there you go. I love it. Okay, well, we'll report back once we've had a go. So one of our final questions we'd like to ask you is what was the last

parenting thing that you Googled? Oh, gosh. Can it be medical? Yeah, it usually is. Faith had a rash on her belly about two weeks ago when we were in Brighton. And we were away for a week. And it wasn't going down when you did the test.

And now, and EJ had meningitis when he was six weeks old. Did he? I never knew that. And she didn't really have a temperature. She didn't look ill. But still, it was a pinprick rash that was going purple. I never knew that. And she didn't really have a temperature. She didn't look ill. But still, it was a pinprick rash that was going purple. And wasn't going down. And wasn't going down.

It wasn't blanching. Yeah, it wasn't blanching at all, at all. And we've all been down that road loads of times. Is it? Isn't it? Is it viral? Is it not? And you can see a definite blanch.

So you can't always see a definite blanch until it doesn't blanch and then you know and then you know that's scary um and it didn't blanch so what did you do well he was like googled yeah googled it i'm like look look it's it goes purple and it's very definite pinpricks and it was all over her belly and did she have a temperature um we didn't have anything with us so it was to tell. And it was about midnight at this time. It's always midnight. It's always midnight. It's always going to be when Ione's, like, busy.

So rang 111, who were always amazing, rang back, got an out-of-doctor's appointment at the local hospital. She was still there for about three hours. And then they said that we were right to bring her in, which was great, because sometimes you don't hear that. Like when you take your child or something up their nose. Exactly. And they're 99% certain it isn't, but they're going to take her blood anyway.

Oh, that's reassuring. Yes. So that was great because the fact that they even had 1% doubt made me feel slightly better that I wasn't overreacting. Now, it wasn't. She was fine. And she had the vein in her hand. Oh, the cannula. Which I know is the worst pain ever.

And Hugh said she was amazing, which makes me really happy and proud. But the fact that they went to that length almost gives me satisfaction that I didn't overreact, even though it't because it didn't and that's the point yeah it doesn't always come up on google as well i think mother's instinct is best aj never had a rash that's what i was gonna ask how did you find out didn't have a rash he didn't have a temperature he was just always sick and he didn't look well he had reflux and they kept giving him different medicine and he wasn't putting on weight.

And this was six weeks. It was a Sunday afternoon. We were in Nando's, I think. And he was sick again. And I just burst out in tears. I mean, at that point, I was suffering a bit postnatal depression because I couldn't breastfeed him. And there was loads of things going on.

But again, I was like, something's not right, something's not right. Anyway, we rushed him to E&E. So you just trusted your insulin? I just trusted. And then within 20 minutes, they said,

how long has he had the 41 degree temperature for? And I'm like, he didn't. Because, you know, at that age, you travel around with temperature things. And you're holding them all the time when they're that small. And then 45 minutes later, we had a lumbar puncture

and he had my chest. Oh, my goodness me. And he's all OK now? He's come out the other end and he's good? We think so. Oh, bless him. Yeah, we think so. That's so stressful.

We were in... Intensive care? Yeah, I stayed with him. Isolation for five days until they gave him all of the antibiotics and because it's a flushy system um and then he and then he was fine but obviously things that um may appear in the future it's still it's kind of unknown because now he can't see without his glasses on he has very bad eyesight And do they think that's related?

We don't know. Yeah. Again, it could be. He's very small. Is his hearing okay? That's questionable. But again, it's something that I think that they can properly test when he's a little bit older.

They've tested it, as in he's not deaf. But it's questionable whether it's perfect but his eyesight was really bad he didn't learn to read properly at all um and we thought he was that there was something else yeah um so things like that dyslexia is a possibility now we're getting that tested um so things like that could be it could be just be him we don't know yeah so how long was he did he have to have treatment for it's exactly five days five days of

just literally that's so tough I feel like you deserve some kind of gold medal as a family no do you know what

I need a glass of wine the number of health like interactions you've had with like hospitals it's only when you talk about it I know I know that you see I find it's only when you talk about it I know I know

that you see but it's not like you know it's not like asking for sympathy as a parent it's always after the event in it you go into coping mode

don't you find yeah absolutely like you're really emotional nurse you're almost quite numb but you're just like well I've got to do this we've got to do this

we've got to survive we've got to survive and then like you say after the event when you talk about it that's when you start to feel really emotional don't you

yeah and then you have these two silly old women asking you questions about it and making you cry. No, because you never really get to talk about it much. That's a very good story, though. It's about trusting your instinct with a baby who can't tell you that they don't feel well. No, no, they can't. And he had no rash. But it's so funny because you say it was Sunday afternoon.

Something clicks. you had no rash but it's so funny because you say it was sunday afternoon something clicks we've both had health things with our kids where something clicked and we decided right and it turned out to be something really scary and it's like okay somewhere inside you know don't you that yeah something to do with that date that time you had to go and get him checked out yeah exactly you did yeah exactly exactly well we're going to lighten the tone now yes over to you annie so That time you had to go and get him checked out. Yeah, exactly. God, you did. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, we're going to lighten the tone now. Yes. Over to you, Anna. So for our last two questions, we always...

This might make her cry. It might make us cry, actually. We always like to ask our guests to imagine you're putting us to bed. Sing us your lullaby. Because every family has a little song that they always sing to their kids at bedtime oh gosh do they do you have

a song or a saying or something that you um I used to do something like I love you you love me

we are one big family that was it it helps that you can actually really sing I think I think that yeah that was what we used to do that wouldn't sound as good if Wendy...

But what I do is every night I say, I love you more than the moon and the stars and wait until they say, and the sky. And I'm going to cry now. So I think we better switch off. Thank you so much, Michelle Heath. You've been absolutely fabulous. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you very much. An absolute pleasure.