The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep30: Helping kids bounce back after lockdown with Nadiya Hussain, Joe Wicks, Linda Blair and Tracey Stone

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Don't miss this extra special episode of SS&T as we explore how best we can help our kids get back to some kind of new normal after a year in and out of lockdowns. Annie and Wendy are joined by fellow parents Nadiya Hussain, Joe Wicks PLUS Clinical Psychologist for Netmums, Linda Blair, and Head of Parent Support, Health Visitor Tracey Stone.

Welcome everyone to a special episode of Sweats, Not and Tears. Yes, welcome. And the reason we're doing this special episode is because of you, lovely listeners, and our Netmums users. You've told us in a brand new Netmums poll that your number one concern as parents isn't the economy or your health or the health of your parents or the effect of lockdown on your career. Overwhelmingly, it's the mental health of your children. That's right. Our survey has revealed that 73% of mums and dads are citing fears for their children's emotional well-being, coming before any anxiety about their children's education or any post-Brexit implications. In response to this insight, and in order to help parents tackle the mental health challenges their children face right now, Netmums is launching its own Helping Kids Bounce Back action plan.

Starting right here, right now, with this conversation between an expert panel of guests and a very simple yet urgent premise. How do we help our children bounce back after a year spent in and out of lockdowns? Joining us to discuss this very important topic we have in no particular order, presenter, author, cook and mum of three, Nadia Hussain. Welcome, Nadia. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Anytime. The body coach himself and the nation's PE teacher during the pandemic, Joe Wicks, himself a dad of two. Welcome, Joe. Hello, everybody. Thank you for having me on this conversation. I'm looking nation's PE teacher during the pandemic, Joe Wicks, himself a dad of two. Welcome, Joe. Hello, everybody. Thank you for having me on this conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Excellent. Linda Blair, Netmums resident clinical psychologist and author of The Happy Child, Everything You Need to Know to Raise Enthusiastic, Confident Children.

Welcome, Linda. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. And finally, last but not least, Tracy Stone, Head of Parent Support at Netmums. Tracy not only manages the team who deliver one-to-one free parental support to those parents most in need via the Netmums Forum, but also oversees delivery of Netmums Daily Forum drop-in clinic, where health, mental health and support professionals answer users' most urgent questions every evening. Having managed both services throughout the pandemic and in her role as a health sitter, Tracey has her finger firmly on the pulse of the nation's families as they try to recover from this unprecedented year.

Lovely. Nice to meet you all and can't wait for the discussion. So let's kick off. Nadia, your children, like mine and Annie's, will be back at school now. So can you tell us, please, first of all, how old you are? And secondly, how you think they've been faring with the challenge of a return to normal, whatever normal might actually look like at the moment? How old the kids are or me? The kids. The kids. So they're 14 and 13.

So I've got two teenagers, 14 and 13. And my little girl is 10. And it's really, honestly, one of the weirdest things that I found about being in lockdown and them coming out is role reversal. So where I would be the one constantly asking them, making sure that they're OK. Something really weird has happened in our house where now the children are constantly checking if I'm okay. And that's got to have an effect on their mental health because somehow that role reversal has, that's happened somewhere over the kind of middle of last year after the second lockdown.

And it's really weird because they're all, they officially all went back to school on Friday last week and it's really weird to have a really quiet house but it's really bizarre because the text messages that I would normally be sending them to say hey how are you doing how are you getting on how's you know are you are you talking to your friends it's something weird has happened where now they're texting me and asking me hey mum how are you doing are you okay um and that's the thing that I've really found bizarre throughout this whole experience is the role reversal. They're obviously actively trying to support you. But what are you doing? What have you changed to try and support them, both during last year and since they've been back? So one thing that we're very big on long before

lockdown has been talking and, you know, expressing how we feel, however silly that might sound. And we've got this thing which I've used since they were very little. And it was when Super Nanny bought in the naughty step. We reversed it and turned it into the talkie step. And so whenever they get really upset. I like that. Yeah. So because I just I just don't think kids are naughty. I think kids do naughty things.

Of course. They're not naughty um and and even now my nearly 15 year old he's you know he takes up the entire talkie step like there nobody else can sit on it when he's on it now um but even he will sit on the talkie step uh when he's up he's gonna hate me saying this because he's nearly 15 he's like he doesn't want anyone to know that he sits on the talkie step but throughout lockdown while they've been at home they've spent a lot of time on that step and and one thing that we've been really big on we've always been really big on is is talking and what I found with the kids during lockdown was where the roles had reversed and they were looking after me quite a lot and they were constantly checking my checking in on me they'd stopped talking and so we had to make it a thing where we sit down and we talk. And it's really

bizarre because just last night, they were really nervous about going back to school and doing a full week. And so we ended up, what started off as a 20 minute conversation ended up being three hours of, three hours of just like questions. We have this little deck of cards that we've got questions on and we ask, it's kind of almost like we've diverted the conversation and and it's not constantly talking about lockdown and how we feel about it's other things and it's about discovering other things about each other um and so we've got these really interesting questions about um what are the things that you know what are the things that upset you and how do you recover from being upset or how do you recover from being angry so it's about taking the concentration away like diverting our attentions away from lockdown because we're in it let's face

it it's happening but sometimes I feel like that's all we're ever talking about so it's true the one the one thing that I think I found has really helped with the kids is talking about other things because yes life is about lockdown but we're still living and we need to talk about other things too and that's been really important certainly for um my teenagers that's been really important so what if anything makes you anxious as a parent about getting them back on track track it sounds like you you've nailed the talking thing you've cracked that but is there things that you're still anxious about especially having teenagers the rest of us I think on the call have got littler kids who I think are possibly a bit shielded from it so what makes

you worried about her getting them back on track oh I think it's more for my little girls just seems to just go in and out and it doesn't affect her as much and I keep talking to her trying to see if if she's okay and actually she seems to just bounce back really quickly but I try talking to her trying to see if she's okay. And actually, she seems to just bounce back really quickly. But I try not to ignore, I try not to just because she's bouncing back and forth between lockdown and school. I try not to like not give her that time that I think she needs. But I found with my teenagers, it's been a massive struggle because their biggest fears have been the social element of not being at school and being with their friends because it's the fear of missing out because a lot of their friendships over the last year have been

online and now at 13 and 14 going out and socializing with their friends is such a big part of growing up and becoming men and going out there and socializing and their friendship circles and they've not been able to do any of that. And if anything, what they've, they've gone from being quite extroverted to completely kind of internalizing everything. And they've, and that's been my biggest struggle with the kids, with the boys is that whilst we don't like to, you know, we were just talking about extroverts and introverts just yesterday. And, and, um, for me, we don't like that label you just you change dip in and out of who you are in different situations and my kids said to me yesterday we've forgotten what it's like to to be around people and that has been my biggest struggle apart from the fact that both my

boys are asthmatic that apart as a parent apart from worrying just you know for me as a mom my biggest worry is that as asthmatics, you know, just with COVID, you know, that for me is my biggest fear. And they're teenagers, they don't, you know, for them, they don't care that they have asthma. And that's my biggest fear is that because they've been out of the loop and out of social settings that they've forgotten that they're asthmatic and kind of reminding them without scaring them too much. But equally, it's the social element. It's, that's been the hardest thing for them and for me, because as much as they seem to be okay, they don't talk as much as I'd like them to. So that's been my biggest fear,

is that they won't be able to get back into that kind of where they were a year and a half ago. Yeah. And should we even expect them to? I guess that's another big question. So Jo, turning to you, I know you two are much younger. So returning to the classroom is kind of less of an issue. And the thing about teens being able to socialise with their friends doesn't quite apply. But what do you think when you hear our users say that worries about their children's mental health is topping the list of concerns right now? Is it something that's been a concern for you or has come up when talking to friends and family I got a real sense of that throughout lockdown you know with P with Jo and a lot of the DMs and the message I was getting around

from parents that had children that's suffering with um you know maybe learning difficulties or they're on the spectrum or they have certain you know issues going on you know they were all saying the same thing my child's mental health has been suffering and your exercise and your workouts have really helped they've given us structure to our day they've helped us have fun as a family and I think the greatest thing about PE with Joe was not the fact that it was like a workout it was just it was fun and it was like something you could do together and you know let loose and forget about you know not being at school or the lockdown and COVID and I think that was my gift really and I think it's so important that we now tune into that that as a family we have the ability to positively interact and positively um be role

models to each other so for me like the greatest thing you can do as a parent to young children is to exercise in front of them it's to do things together like activities where you know you have fun you get hot and sweaty you might do it in the garden or you might go for a bike ride and all these things are so important so this year I keep saying you know if exercise was optional last year it's essential this year you know for our mental health to get us through this time and I know it's a temporary thing like exercise is a temporary lift in your mood but it's so powerful and when you realise that and you can get that into a child's DNA from a young age they will lean on exercise the rest of their life. That's a really really good point now I know you didn't necessarily have the easiest childhood at times what do you think would have made or did make

the difference to you when things weren't necessarily easy that others could learn from right now I mean it was definitely for me looking back it was always sports and exercise and PE and after-school clubs and I was always doing something different it'd be roller skating or BMXing or karate I really it was my therapy because I was a stressed out angry little teenager you know my dad was in and out of rehab for drug addiction and I didn't understand it you know so when you're younger you either go down that route where you rebel and revolt you know you get into the kind of bad behaviors you might associate but I actually went the other way I went no I'm going to stay away from that life and I know how destructive that can be I want to be active I want to exercise and I want to join the after school club and represent my school in athletics so I was always

very driven to be you know it wasn't about competing it was just about letting off that energy I was very hyperactive so when I exercised I just felt better I felt calmer um my diet was atrocious too I mean we lived off sunny delight and wagon wheels and ice gems sunny delight it's so bad I haven't heard of that in years it's like two for one it was frozen food and it was like chocolate bars and you know yeah ice gems and crisps and stuff so my diet was probably terrible in terms of my behavior because we know now the link between food and attention span and focus and stuff so my diet was terrible but I had that balance of exercise where I always just knew that if I was feeling stressed out or upset or a bit resentful about things, if I exercise, I was a happier child and I'm a happier adult because of it today. So

my message around mental health is there is a big issue. And the diabetes thing is an issue. The obesity thing is an issue. But truthfully, I think the mental health of our children is even more important right now to really focus on instantly. And obviously, as a long term side effect, your children are going to lose weight. They're going to get healthier. But it's really inspiring kids to exercise, be active, to step away from their Fortnite and their Call of Duty and their FIFA. And I just look, can you try and do something active for 20 minutes a day? Think how different you're going to feel. And that really was the aim of of PE with Joe and my mission today is can I continue that legacy of getting families

in their living room just having fun bouncing around doing some exercise or going out together and that's really the aim of what I do because when you do that a family the whole culture of the household can change towards being one of an active you know uplifted energized family as opposed to you know where we just become robots and we're all in our rooms on our devices that's going to happen anyway but i think it's trying to use tech i think using you know audio or video and youtube and tiktok and using these platforms to try and interact with children and encourage them in a positive way um that's really the mission i'm on and you've been very successful on it. Linda, I've seen you nodding,

which is really nice to hear, or to see rather, when Joe's been speaking and Nadia's been speaking, has anything they've said particularly resonated with you? And then the other thing I wanted to ask you is, what are you seeing as a psychologist? Are the problems around children's mental health as prevalent as parents are worrying that they are?

Are you seeing these problems manifest themselves? Those are a lot of questions sorry one at a time first of all i would uh say that the reason i'm nodding is that both nadia and joe together sum up what we need which is talking and movement i mean you know that that's my job done, really. That's excellent. The second thing I'd like to say is that anxiety is just energy, but it's energy gone wrong. So Joe couldn't put his finger on it more perfectly. Then he said, well, go do something. You'll feel better. Well, you'll feel better because the energy you would have used is anxiety. Not only makes you feel better because you've used it productively, but it isn't there for the anxiety? Actually, Jo, it does. It's temporary, yes, up to two hours

after you exercise. But actually, with habit, I'm sure you know that everything comes down. Metabolism comes down. The endorphins go up. That bit goes up, cortisol comes down. And so it's more than temporary. It begins to filter out throughout the day. So I think those things are just so important and so beautifully presented by these two people. So thank you. I would say that the problems are, yeah, they are as as bad as everybody thinks but they're different depending on the age band you're talking about which is another nice thing about Nadia and Joe is that we've we've got it all we've got children with Joe we've got tweens and we've got teens with you Nadia if I take a moment if if you don't mind I can say what the main problems are please do

okay with children the main problem is us parents um children have not had childhood before so they are not saying oh I don't understand this is terrible know, I'm being locked down. It's not like it should be. It's what it is. With a child, the only thing you have to do is yourself. Be positive. Tell them they can do anything because they can. And that you'll help them. And be aware of the words you use. Instead of problems or worry or anxiety, talk about challenge and solutions and energy.

You know, good stuff, whatever words you like, but positive words. So with children, the answer is really pretty simple, which is to be the way you want them to be when they're your age and you're home free. And that's the exercising, isn't it, Joe? You're doing it for in front of them because that's what you want them to do when they're, uh, grown up. And then we've got tweens and then we've got teens. Uh, what are tweens by the way? Um, that depends on the person. Um, tweens can be six because some people say my kid is already a teenager. I think I have one of those. Okay. Okay.

So you know what I'm talking about. So any time they start acting hormonal, you don't have to do any hormone tests consistently, then they're tweens. So tweens are just learning how to manipulate. They're learning how to take the place of the people yeah i'm afraid so they're learning how to take the place of of the people around them and so they know your buttons so what they want is reassurance yes they want reassurance but they know how to get it and if you can be aware of that then you can calm them down it doesn't matter what say. What matters is that you don't react as strongly when they come to you distressed as you do when they're happy. I know that sounds really

counterintuitive, but what they start to see is, wow, I get attention from mom and dad when I'm saying that I can do this and when I'm strong and when I'm trying, rather than mom and dad run to me whenever I say I'm worried it's it's really counterintuitive and the hardest I think of all the age groups is to work can I just interrupt you there Linda because I think Joe you might say the same works for toddlers actually yeah totally no you're right I mean I've done a lot of work on this as well I've read books and listened to podcasts around parenting and I'm fascinated by this yeah and it's just that thing of I've learned just to take that moment of you know take a breath and understand little toddlers don't have rational

brains and it's sometimes hard isn't it in that moment but yeah I'm learning as I go I'm trying to be more patient because as a kid I was shouted at and I was screamed at and shouted so that's my default setting like when I think about it but I really try not to be like that I want to be different so I'm always trying to work on that and yeah come at it from a different angle and be much more understanding in that moment and as a kid you must have learned that that what you do when people shout at you is avoid getting shouted at that's all you learn you don't learn what to do do you um okay yeah well you're right about the difference between, the similarity, sorry, between children and tweens in a way. But children are not aware that they're manipulating you, whereas tweens are. You've got more of a challenge with the tween because what you want to teach them is to use that ability to take the place of the other to help, not to manipulate.

Teenagers are the ones who are genuine in their request about social interaction. Nadia said it better than I even can, I think. That's what matters. And I think one of the best ways, besides listening, without saying you understand because you don't know, you don't understand their viewpoint, but you're trying to understand. That's a better thing to say. That'll keep them going. But try to react and try to offer solutions so they think,

oh, there is more than one answer to this. I could try this. But the other thing I really think is start meeting up within the rules, outside or whatever is safe now. So whatever you can do to get them to meet with one or possibly two other peers, because you know how it is. If you walk into a room and they're all strangers, it's terrifying. Those are all excellent tips. And I think you're right. We do have to take it kind of each age and stage differently. Tracy. Yes. Hi. Tell us what you're hearing what are you hearing in the netmums forum about

concerns around this and how people are struggling to find ways to get their kids back on track as it were yeah so it's very much what joe and nadia have um shared already about the um socialization and mental health suffering and i think there's lots of um areas which kind of cross-populate between the parents and the child they have their own individual anxieties as well but a lot of them are shared and like Nadia said about you know it's the children texting the parents now there because a lot of the worries you know do cross-populate both ages really so I think with the neck mums dropping clinic we've had lots of posts lots

of anxieties um especially from new mums that have had their babies in lockdown so they've had their first child um in normal experiences with your first baby you'll meet your friends in um whether in baby groups and health visitor dropping clinics and those people that you'd meet in that first year of parenthood when you're on your maternity leave are likely the friends that you will continue your whole journey with and when you have other children um you don't necessarily change that you remain with that friendship group and um a lot of that has just not happened and we have a lot of lonely mums out there a lot of mums with no social network at all and yes you can develop that through online resources that are offered by support networks but it doesn't necessarily replace that general conversation

like you know is this normal is my child okay um you have babies that have been born in lockdown and have never seen another baby you know because the parents are anxious to take them out um or they don't know there are other people the same size as them you know so and does that have an impact on a baby it's like very much so very much so yes about um you know we would run many clinics where the babies would just be lying on the floor together and they would reach each other touch each other smile at each other start taking turns it's the fundamental start of basic communication um and that's not happened um so we have anxieties from parents with their newborns

um we have anxieties perhaps when they were maybe six months old when we went into lockdown and their speech and language is not developed because they haven't had the conversation. We have to bear in mind, not every child comes from a really rewarding home. So there are some children that perhaps haven't necessarily had the stimulation.

So, you know, we are talking, talking you know cross-population here so we have to be aware of all those things um they were impacted on um the isolation on the um moving through the age to preschool they've not perhaps separated from the parents ever so you have mums that are really anxious about how their children will settle in a preschool and you also have mums that have separation anxiety themselves they don't want to let their child go. Settling into a preschool is very different parents are avoiding the setting because you can't take your child into the setting you can't show them where their coat goes and you can't meet their carers you can't show them where their coat goes and you can't meet their carers you can't show them where the toilets are so there is a reluctance sometimes for parents to negotiate

that and navigate that next step which is the natural step for a child but is limited because of the isolation restrictions so we have that to deal with and i'm the solution to that is getting a child used to separating, but the opportunity to do that isn't necessarily there. So we have the preschoolers, the early years, and you have the children going into school. You have the anxieties of the children leaving their homes again, the fears of what is COVID? What is the what is the bug you know is it a big scary insect walking around or is it a virus what what is a bug you know nobody knows my five-year-old calls it the tummy bug it's just the long-term tummy bug yeah but for a child for interesting with my child I

have a an eight-year-old and when I had to manage an infection at school I said you can't go to school because there's a bug and then eventually when we were allowed to manage an infection at school, I said, well, you can't go to school because there's a bug. And then eventually when we were allowed to go back, the whole school was closed for about three days to manage it. This is pre-COVID. When we went back to school, he didn't want to go because he thought there was a huge insect walking around the school, which was the bug. And so his whole perception. I can't say I blame him if there was a giant bug yes we don't use the word bug in our house anymore Linda I know you wanted to respond to what Tracy's

just said but I just wanted to ask Tracy first of all if you could share a couple of strategies or any there's a lot of problems that have been highlighted there and what would you say to I don't know it may be all slightly different but whether it's a mum with a baby or whether it's someone who's got a preschool child what would your strategies be for helping them readjust and help their kids readjust yeah so I think we've talked you know Linda and Nadia and Jo have all offered solutions and I would absolutely support all of what they've said but it's about know, talking, especially as Nadia kicked off and highlighted, but for me, it's also about listening and listening to what the child is saying. If they're non-verbal, you know, all verbal is notice their behavior, just try and be aware of what they're feeling. And if you can try and name that feeling.

So for Joe, when he said he was perhaps angry as a child, it would be noticing your child is angry. And by saying, I think you're angry. And then that almost neutralizes a little bit of the situation and gives the child permission to be angry. And then you can explore through talking and listening, you know, to find out what it is they're worried about, because your worry is hugely different to probably what their worry is. You know, going back to school, you may worry they won't have friends, but they may worry they've got the wrong lunchbox. Yeah. My son, who's nine, was completely freaking out the night before they returned to school. And I assumed it was all COVID, all of these things. I said, what is it? What's

the worst thing you can think of? What's the thing that's bothering you the most? He said, I hate it when I have to say which lunch I'm having. And I was like, okay, cool. I was like, let's practice. I was like, I'll be the teacher. And we made a joke. We all did funny voices and said crazy things that we were going to have for lunch. And of course, after one time of doing it, he was fine, but it would never have occurred to me in a trillion years that that was what he was worried about. Totally. So you just have to, you know, try and then you're only going to do that by effective communication and giving them space to talk and finding out what it is. And I think we can all try and be like super mom or super dad, superhuman to try and make it okay for them. But really,

just need to focus on what's normal to them and very gradually establish what they're familiar with. Do not try to overthink it or to solve it, but what they're most comfortable with is to gradually build that back up again. And once they're back on a level of where they feel safe, then their self-esteem and confidence will begin to grow from that. And then you can begin to explore and perhaps move forward. But it's just taking it really slowly and just being mindful that it's achievable, but just at your own pace. So, Linda, what would you say to parents who are worried, whether that's a parent like Joe who's got a toddler or nadia who's got tweens and teens kicking around the house what would you how do you allay their fears well first of all um i i love that business about the uh saying which lunch that's why i try

as a therapist and we should all try as parents never never to I understand, but to ask. That's so important. And before I talk about those problems of isolation, I just wanted to say one thing to Nadia. I think it's wonderful that your boys are asking how you are. That is not a sign of weakness. That is a sign of strength. Those kids are saying, look, I I'm I'm gonna cope okay mom but I want to make sure you so I would definitely check back with them not say how are you just say oh thanks for asking I'm fine yeah I mean like Joe was saying earlier you know like we take how we

were how we were raised and try and change that and for us for me growing up in a community where you didn't speak you didn't have an opinion you kind of just got on with it and it was we never spoke about our emotions we never spoke about how we felt it was very much just you have a job you get on and you just move on and there was no speaking in between and for me I'm certainly this last year it's been even more important but you know for me I'm trying to raise my boys, especially because my little girl can talk for England and I'm quite, she's quite happy to talk about her emotions. But, you know, men didn't speak about their emotions. Men didn't say how they felt. And for me, it's very important

for them. So I feel lucky that my boys want to ask how I am, which suggests to me that talking is working. Sorry, can I just bring Jo in there and say as the boy in the group what what would have made it easier or what could have facilitated you speaking up more as a teen or what did facilitate you speaking up as a teen is it harder for boys I actually think I've always been quite good at communicating how I feel I think my older brother Nicky was a bit he found a bit more difficult he would bottle things up but I always knew that if I was feeling something, I would vocalize it. I would, you know, swear and I'd shout and I'd calmly talk. And I'd always describe how I was feeling.

So I found that quite easy. Even now as an adult, you know, I've done an Instagram live during the lockdown. And I felt really emotional. And I burst into tears in front of thousands of people. And that's just me, like, letting out that energy. Sometimes it's an energy that has to come out. And a lot of people, they feel it coming and they just go, I'm all right. And they push it back down and they go back around, you know, go back to their day.

But I believe in letting that negative energy out, that whatever you're feeling, you always feel better afterwards. And I say that to Indy, I say it to Marley, you know, I say, how are you feeling? Use your words. Tell me what's going on. And, you know, it's something that children need to know from their legs. It's OK to see that vulnerability and show that emotion did you agree with that should we feel okay crying if we feel overwhelmed by all of this with our kids what's the what's the right thing to do well first of all i remember when joe did that and it was really positive boy that was positive for so many men especially my teenagers said we love joe yeah absolutely um yes i i think the the idea of labeling the

emotions i love that i think you're feeling angry and then if they're not they'll tell you no i'm not and then you can try again but teaching them what they're feeling is really really important so they have some kind of lexicon to work from so they know and joe's right if you feel an emotion and get rid of it straight away it's a lot less violent when it comes out than if you store it and store it and let it fester and fester you want it to let it out and then you know you may have to talk about yeah you don't let it out by smacking your brother. They did occasionally. There's been a bit of that. Girls are even worse, trust me.

I just wanted to say one thing, though, about people who are worried about babies not seeing other babies and little kids not seeing other little kids. Please don't worry. First of all, when I was doing my graduate work in America, one of the other gals, her project was to compare children in Guatemala and this particular tribe in Guatemala, which I'll explain in a moment, with Harvard, very high class, educated children. And these kids in this particular tribe, they believe that sunlight was dangerous for a child until they're 12 months old. So in that community, the baby stayed in darkness pretty much alone for 12 months. And she tested these kids periodically

up to age 10, I think it was, and compared the Harvard schmaltzy kids with these kids. And in the first three or four years, the children in Guatemala were way behind on all the cognitive tests. Of course, they didn't have the interaction, but by 10, there was no difference at all. And you don't have any kind of deprivation like that. So I am so a believer in children. They will compensate so fast and so well. And with language, actually, it isn't their peers that they're learning from when they're little. They're learning from the good role models, the adult language, big sister or mom or dad or big brother. That's where they're picking up the right grammar and the right vocabulary.

So with babies, all you have to do is read in the phone book. I mean, I used to have my mind would be slung in front of me on the thing, you know, so they could see my face in a sling. And I'd say, now I'm putting the eggs in here and I'm just making ours. I didn't care what I said, but they all had good vocabulary. They're all adopted, so they all came from different backgrounds so that was nurture not nature so really just talk to them about anything yeah very good Linda and I think that they are the real worries that people have so it's really important to you know make that known that

children aren't compromised you know they can be stimulated to what they have at home so it's a really really good thing yeah yeah I agree with that I get a lot of parents message me when I was weaning Indy you know she was she was really good about food and like even Marley he's learned to use a spoon really quickly but for the first few weeks he was making so much mess and I just let him get on with it and he eventually taught himself how to use a spoon and same with Indy's handwriting and parents get really worked up they send messages like my daughter's not writing yet and my little boy can't hold a spoon and he's almost you know 18 months older and i always say to the parents i always say look there's no rush your children are going to learn to use a knife and fork and they're going to learn to speak there's no pressure or there's no race between like the next person's kid next to you and yours

i think there's this real pressure from parents that they want their kids to all be at the same level at the same time but everyone has different. But we all learn to speak and eat with a knife and fork. That's always my answer, really. It's like someone always says, there aren't many 18 year olds who start university with a dummy. It's, you know, they're not going to carry all of these things on until they're in their teens. Nadia, how are your friends experiencing this I mean we must all have friends who have kids of similar ages to us are you are you feeling a sense of anxiety from your friends who are parents? It's really odd because actually a lot of my friends have I

started quite early so I had my first son at 21 and then my second at 22. So I have now, all my friends are now having children now. I'm 36 and they're starting to have kids now. So they've got kids that are very young. So they're expecting all these answers from me. And I'm like, I don't know. I haven't got, I haven't got the answer. I have never raised a child during a worldwide pandemic. So they're looking for answers from me that I can't give them because I'm in my own bubble with these teenagers that I can just about barely deal with by myself. So one of my nephews were born during lockdown. So he has only ever seen his grandparents a handful of times. I've got my best friend's got kids sort of similar sort of age. And we kind of look to each other to find answers but

there was something that you guys said about joe you were saying about each kid is different and that's something that i've learned over this last year having tweens and teens their individuality is something that i've that has kind of just weirdly just magnified over this last year um and where people ask for advice and say oh you, you know, did you do this? Can I do this? I don't have the answers anymore, because actually all of our children are completely different. I've got three kids raised the exact same way. And they are so individual. It's unbelievable. In this last year, they're so different in the way they deal with things, in the way they respond to things, in how they've dealt with this pandemic,

their own kind of mental health struggles, how they socialize. It's all totally different. So there's not one size fits all. And that's something that I've learned about myself, you know, certainly as a parent, that's something that I've learned. And that's kind of, if anybody ever asks me for advice,

I don't, there is no one size fits all. And it's kind of sit and listen as much as talking is important. Listen to what your child needs or wants. And that's half the learning is listening to your child and that's something that I've definitely had to learn to do a lot more in this last year um is to listen to them because they're all saying what feels quite similar to me but actually they're all saying very different things to me and I can I can hear that now um and it's really weird because now even with teenagers we've reverted back to the the old way of doing things when they were very little it's really weird because now even with teenagers, we've reverted back to the old

way of doing things when they were very little. It's just kind of sad face, happy face. You know, we've got this little octopus. We still use the octopus. We use the little sad face, happy face octopus, which, you know, if I see the sad face octopus on their bed, I'm like, oh, they're not because sometimes they don't want to express it. They don't want to say it because weirdly, there's still a shame attached to talking about your emotions which we're trying to break through but that's something that I think will always stay so um with all of my friends and certainly my brothers and sisters who all have we all have kids very similar ages you know we're always kind of sharing stories and talking about what you know how we've helped and it's really

bizarre because we all are raising our children in very different ways but sometimes somebody says something and something twigs and you think oh I'll try that or I'll give that a go or maybe that's what I need to do maybe I need to listen and and it's it's having the conversations that are important rather than what you're going to get out of them I think openly having the conversation is really important. Jo have you been finding that with friends have friends been talking to you about their anxieties around their kids and how they're going to recover from this very strange year yeah well i've got a group of friends and we've all got kids we've got our own little um whatsapp thread and yeah everyone has similar feelings around you know their kids

going back to school but i mean most most of them have found it really difficult homeschooling so in a way they're kind of happy their kids are back and And they said that, you know, their kids are, they really look forward to it. They've missed that social interaction. So it's not all doom and gloom. I think most of them are really upbeat and positive about, you know, just things opening up again. But whatever we've gone through, like even us as adults, it's just going to be a moment in time and a little period that we sort of,

it's a memory, you know, this won't be forever. And so like, you know, we move on, don't we? And it will be like a moment in time. You might, let's just say your child's academically struggled a little bit. a memory you know this won't be forever and so like you know we we move on don't we and it'll be like a moment in time you might let's just say your child's academically struggled a little bit they're gonna they're gonna catch up we always do and everything's gonna be fine and emotionally they're also gonna re-interact and re-socialize they're not gonna be like introvert forever it's just this moment in time where even like you know when I used to like do book signings and I would love hugging everybody like there's gonna be a time when I maybe I can't do that anymore and so like I'm still gonna enjoy those situations but I won't

be as cuddly and as like emotional and like as kind of tactile as I probably once was but it doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy those experiences so I think we're all going to learn just to kind of be slightly more you know maybe a bit standoffish in certain social environments but we're still going to have fun and meet people and still interact and socialize I think you're right we do have to take a bit of a deep breath i remember the first day back at school i was so nervous waiting for my son to come out because he'd been nervous about telling people what he was going to have for lunch and he bounded out like with his arm around his friend which probably shouldn't have been doing but they were gassing away to each other he didn't notice i was there for ages and it was like lockdown had never happened and i was saying to

myself in my head why have you been so worried about this they're fine they're gonna be fine and I also think Linda I hope you'll agree with me when I say the children live much more in the now than we do as adults so lockdown is lockdown and they take it as it is and yes mummy's a crap homeschool teacher and maybe it's not as fun doing fractions in the kitchen as it is doing it with your mates. But then it's over and they're back at school and something else like what's for lunch is their biggest worry. Do you agree? Totally. And that's so well put. And that's that's why they are happier so much of the time than we are.

So, yes, absolutely. much of the time we are um so yes absolutely um but i think um also you want to separate what's going to be universal and what's going to be particular because nadia's point is so important about how each kid is different um cognitive development their way of understanding the world and their language development will proceed in the same order across all kids unless they are brain damaged. As Joe pointed out, they may do it at different ages because that's where the difference comes in, but the ordering is the same. So they'll learn categories before they learn future imagination or whatever it is. But don't worry about their chronological age.

It's their cognitive age that you want to help make rich. Okay? I think that's really important. But emotionally and how quick they react to stuff and whether they love certain things, whether they're naturally physically able, those kinds of things will be unique, even in twins. I remember in a reincarnation, I was a swimming teacher and I had identical twins in one class. And I thought, well, this is going to be a cinch, you know,

I'll just do the same thing. No, that one of them wanted to think about it and move his arms carefully before he was set off. The one and was halfway across the pool. They're grown up now and they're just the same. That difference. And so always the best thing a parent can do is to react to each kid as if they're unique. Unlike anybody. Not as good as your brother. And never never never call your twins the twins. Let them each be special.

I love that. I love that. Everyone is special. Now, finally, to each of you in turn, is enough being done to support parents with this? If you could make one request to the government right now, and not trying to make this too political, but just if you could ask for help for parents in trying to do their best for their kids right now, what would it be? Linda, let's start with you. I would ask for a named person that they can contact to talk about problems, not a person that they type a message in. We are overloaded on that.

And specifically, if you could actually meet them face-to-face. I campaigned as one of the Agony Ant group for years. We were campaigning to get a counselor in every school. Because people don't want advice on a piece of paper. They don't want a website where they type things in. They want a person. So this, I think, will be very helpful, this podcast, because here we have two people that everybody looks up to, and yet they're also parents, so they're giving their own hearts.

That's wonderful. And that's the sort of thing that we need, plus a real person that you could go, I'm going to go see Sarah because she is the one who takes my worries. That would be, I know it's expensive, but by God, it would pay off. Well, and it would transform the world. Yeah. Tracy, I know that, I mean, what Linda's just said is what works so brilliantly about the parent supporter service in the forum, isn't it? That our users know they've got some trained experts right there who they can talk to one-on-one who will help them. Is that what you would ask for too? Or is there something else that you think parents need right now? I think parents need a platform to ask, to express, to actually say what they're worried about. Nobody can do the right thing if nobody knows what the right thing is so for me and it's underpins

basic health visiting practice is a fundamental fact is to search for a health need and once we know what the worries are and we can devise a route to navigate that to offer parents solutions and basic advice then that is the way forward I think and it needs to come from the ground because it needs to be from the people that have the worries and then the policies can then be devised to react to that so we need to hear what they are and so the parents need a voice and a platform to deliver that you know Netmoms does that brilliantly and it's through other services in the community that could perhaps be fed up. So from the schools, from GPs, school nurses, clubs, organisations that children access. There needs to be a way that these worries and concerns can be collected and sent onward

so the right package of care can be delivered back. Excellent. And Joe, what would you say parents need right now? I think for me, you know, it all comes back, you know, I think the communication element is so important and also the movement side of things. For me, I just want families to have access to activities and, you know, after-school clubs and, you know, just online resources or, you know, with me, the video content I share is on YouTube.

It's all free, it's accessible and it's, you know, 100 million people took part in Peawidge over just within the space of a year. That's real impact. And it's, you know, 100 million people took part in Peabody over just within the space of a year. That's real impact. And I think imagine if there was, you know, loads of other kind of body coach ambassadors or someone within a school that could really interact and engage their children in fitness. I think it needs to be done at school. School's one challenge, but really it's just as important at home. It's like whether you're in a little flat or a big house, it's about trying to have activity and movement and fun as a family I think it really helps with communication and socializing when you can have a hot sweaty workout together you can talk about things you can communicate better so yeah I just think really promoting and pushing fitness as the first thing we should turn to really it's always the last thing it's

always you know there's all this money being spent on other things but it just doesn't seem to be the physical activity side of things for men's love doesn't seem to be spoken about enough good point what's um interesting to add joe that having done one of your workouts it's impossible to talk yeah i think joe hates everyone just a little bit just one and that was it yeah i think joe is completely right i mean one of the things we did lots of in lockdown because there was basically nothing else to do was go on loads of big long family walks and the mood in the house when you came back was so much more positive and so much more enjoyable than the mood when we were trying to get everyone to get their shoes on and get out of the house

fitness does transform a family mindset. It really, really does. Nadia, what do you wish for for parents right now? Can I just say, when my kids did the workout for the first time, they said, Mum, I think Joe hates everyone just a little bit. No, this is good for you guys. Yeah, yeah, this is good for you guys. The teenagers struggled. My 10-year-old was fine. This is kind of echoing a little bit of what linda said about creating hubs because i worked on a documentary and um

very few very few high schools have these mental health hubs where um there are specially trained teachers who know to recognize the signs and can take the children away to a safe place um but one thing that over the last few years where I've been really open about talking about mental health and anxiety in children is that nobody listens to the children. Why are we not talking to the children? And I say this as a mom of two teenagers is that we talk very openly about anxiety and mental health in our house. And some of the, honestly, some of the things that my teenagers say, I wish I could put them on a platform and say, listen to these children, listen to what they're saying. Just very recently, my son said, I could hear him having a little

TED talk with his brother and his sister. And they were sat in my office and I could, and I was kind of like trying to film it at the same time. But I was earwigging and listening. And he said, guys, and I think my my second son had said, why is this happening to us? Why is this happening to us? And he was talking about the pandemic and being in lockdown. And then he said, and my eldest, my 14 year old said, OK, so let's flip. And he could he's talking. I could hear myself in him. He said, OK, so, so let's flip the question and let's ask ourselves, why is it happening for us? And that just made me realize that actually it's not adults we should be talking to. We should be talking to our children because they have the answers. And we need to create some sort of a forum, some sort of a hub where we can listen to our

children because they know what they need they know what they want we may very well find the solutions and find ways in doing it but really our children know what they need and they know what they want and they have the answers and we mustn't take that away from them so somewhere giving our children a voice is really important a really good point wow that. And Linda, Tracy, where if a parent listening to this really is struggling, if they think their kids are really struggling, where can they go immediately for help until a wish list, because they're so overwhelmed and also usually can't see them. I would say go to an older sister, your mom, if you get on with your mom, somebody in your friendship group like Nadia who had older kids. So even though you say you don't know, I bet you in the conversation you let out a few things which helped them. So I would turn to someone who, that's why I want someone that, you know, in the schools where children, you're right, Nadia, and parents can go to a named person. Somebody you know and you admire. Can I say one quick thing about WAPSA?

Please do. It's so important. If you want to get your kids to tell their hearts, and they're not in a household like Nadia's where they're used to doing that, then what you do is you set up a situation where you're not looking at them face-to-face. Because kids, they don't like that. It's like inquisition. And so on a walk or you offer to take them somewhere in the car or you do a routine, a physical routine together, that's when

they'll talk. Or bake a cake. That usually works in our house. Yeah, it's very wise advice. I remember, Linda, I interviewed you many moons ago before I even had my children. And that single piece of advice that you've just shared there, you gave me then and I still, I use it now and I've used it all the way through and it definitely definitely works well thank you and thank the lord I'm consistent no pressure Tracy so exactly what Linda's just said you know all those things and I think it's you know finding that person that you trust ultimately you have to trust them you have to have a relationship with them if you don't feel you could trust that person you're less likely to be honest um looking at the schools they've obviously got um teachers that

can talk to classroom assistants talk to people local that you are really aware of and yes linda's right people aren't as accessible but health visitors gps we are there and we will react to um to a need um and listen and signpost to other areas that are in your local community. And also there's the bigger picture. There's some really, really good resources online. You know, we have professionals in the drop-in clinic with all our professional registrations, all very accountable. There is the obviously NetWarm's Bounce Back campaign, which we're launching, which will have lots of professionals. You've also got nhs driven um every mind matters information you've got information on nspcc websites there's information

on young minds so there's lots of information you can read at the tap of a button it's very easy to understand and very accessible and we'll offer you signposts as well so there are places to go locally and nationally so um there is support there and if you don't know where it is and then somebody else will so ask that person and don't be afraid to say I'm not okay it's okay not to be okay I think that's a really great message for this special episode of Sweats Not In Tears to land on thank you very much Tracy thank you Jo thank you Linda thank you Nadia thank you Wendy obviously as always and thank you very much tracy thank you joe thank you linda thank you nadia thank you wendy obviously as always and thank you actually to our two producers today russ williams and

charlotte blackmore this was not an easy getting all of our diaries for line wasn't easy was it but yes please do watch out on netmums for the helping kids bounce back campaign we are opening a new forum board where parents can speak specifically about this topic to one another so you can share your peer-to-peer advice. And we're also going to be hosting special themed bounce back sessions in the drop-in clinic where experts will be on hand to answer your questions, as well as always hosting all of the great content we have online. And there is lots that is themed around this topic. So we look forward to seeing you on Netmoms and we look forward to chatting to you all again on the podcast at some point in the future. Thank you, everybody. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.