The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep4: Giovanna Fletcher spills the beans on working with the Duchess of Cambridge

Episode Date: October 13, 2020

Giovanna Fletcher is like the living patron saint of parents – and on this episode of Sweat, Snot & Tears it’s easy to see why. Honest, funny and always willing to belt out a tune, we wish she was our real-life mum-friend. Listen to Giovanna talk early morning starts with Buddy, Buzz and Max … and how she managed to snare the biggest podcast coup of all-time: an interview with Kate Middleton.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Oh, Wend, talking to Giovanna Fletcher was about as amazing as I thought it was going to be. Except for the fact that she made me cry about 18 times during the pod. Well, considering she's normally the one who cries on her podcast,

I love the fact that she made you cry on ours. I know. Yeah, not one. I think she's met a crying challenger to her crying crown. I think she might well have done. Oh, and speaking of crowns, I love all the details that she gave us about interviewing the Duchess. I know. I have got serious envy about how up close and personal she got with her. It's amazing.

And I'm also loving who her dream guest is now that she's already had the Duchess. She's set her sights even higher. But everyone, you're going to have to listen to find out. Enjoy. So this morning, Wendy and I are joined by the only way i can describe this person is a veritable ray of sunshine which is what we all need in our lives right now wendy we've got g and i'm so excited morning morning how are you both we're good how are you really good really good drop off went well you know the world is good again. Sort of. Not really, but you know, the drop-off's happening, so that's nice. That's always good. Now, the first question we always ask on the podcast is, the first thing this morning, which meant that straight away he wanted to go downstairs and watch something on the telly. And it was barely five o'clock. So, yes, there were tears to go downstairs and watch TV and get the day started.

But thankfully, school has swimming today. So that was an incentive. You must get more sleep, but otherwise you won't have enough energy to go swimming suddenly back to sleep all five oh that was good so the five o'clock wasn't the real start of the day no we managed to stretch out to 20 past six which on those days makes me feel like a bit of a superhero because that doesn't happen very often it's quite well documented on both yours and tom's instagram that your kids are particularly early risers. So how do you cope with two super busy full time working parents and kids that think five o'clock is morning? Do you know what? It's actually got a lot. The great thing about lockdown is that we got into a new sort of routine.

And so basically we have three floors to our house and Buzz and Buddy before lockdown were sharing a bedroom. There are three bedrooms on one floor. And it was all very nice. But during lockdown, the start of lockdown, Buzz and Buddy started waking each other up, taking it in turns to wake each other up at five o'clock in the morning.

So they would turn the light on and play games, which was fine if they were just going to do that because they always shut their door. They were very, very clever like that. But it's when you're having to referee at five past five they're like this is not cool this is not happening um so we actually were really lucky in the fact that we've got another bedroom at the top of the house and I just casually said one day buzz how do you fancy going and sleeping at the top and he was like what up up and I was like yeah and he literally went up there had loved it and ever since they've had their own space

no one's waking up at well apart from today this morning it seems like the five o'clock starts are becoming less and less although actually I say that that's a total lie because Max is now in a big boy bed, the two-year-old, because he could climb out of his cot. And so he has started to learn that he can just get out of bed whenever he likes. And that is quite early, but we separate it. So we take it in turns to have the first one up.

Yeah, but the difficulty with that is that you might get the one that's up at four and then they go back to sleep straight away, which is amazing. And then actually the person who gets the second child up at five say, they don't go back to sleep straight away, which is amazing. And then actually the person who gets the second child up at five say, they don't go back to sleep. So it is, it's kind of, you don't know what you're going to get. It's the luck of the draw, but it could mean anything.

Well, I think that's the rule of parenting, isn't it? It's just the luck of the draw and you never know how it's going to turn out. Now you referenced lockdown there. And the big news kind of around that time was that you managed to get the Duchess on your podcast. Tell us about it. How did that happen? Well I know, talk about the year, it's just so strange. It feels like a lifetime ago. So as you know, Had Mum Had Baby, we've been going for three years now and I can remember early on, you know, whenever people like you guys would ask,

you know, who would be your favourite person? Who do you want on? I'd always say Kate Middleton, as I called her then, but now I very much call her the Duchess. And I did. But I did, I sent some emails in and no one was getting back to me. Or if they did, it would be a case of oh

she's you know she was very sick because she was pregnant and duties were kind of sort of being juggled around and stuff and it was always very very sweet but it was a definite no and then because of all the work she's doing in early years it just happened that the worlds collided at the perfect time um so my last sort of pitch for it, if you like, just landed at the right time. And she has spent years and years talking to different scientists, practitioners, researchers, caregivers. Yes, she has. Yes, she knows her stuff. And she wanted to get as many people as possible to take part in a survey.

So I went to Kensington Palace and met her team. Ah, that's so exciting! I know. I was like, what am I aware of? Not that I knew. Oh, I went to Kensington Palace. I know. But I went there and we were talking about the survey

and how it could fit in with the podcast and we're thinking about different ways and because there are five questions to the survey we were like well do we do a different sort of special episode for each one and I was like but that's really bending the laws if you like of the podcast and what it is and the setup so I kind of said oh why not having a duchess on because that that's what we all knew was why I was there, you know. And at that point, it was a case of, well, maybe 10 minutes, that we could do 10 minutes, you know, amongst all the experts and stuff that we were talking about using.

And I was like, okay, okay, I can do that. I can work with 10 minutes with a duchess. That's good with me. And then when the whole thing launched in birmingham i was invited along and we had a five minute chat just the two of us which was lovely and also very strange because when you're about to meet a royal there's this thing where people will be talking to you from her team uh from the royal foundations team and then all of a sudden they just disappear mid-sentence and then a royal appears in front of

you it's like oh oh oh so yeah it's uh it's very surreal so that was nice having that five minute private chat and then we went into a group setting to talk to some of the parents who had taken part in um the foundations of uh putting the survey together and some of their experts. And then after that, the podcast was talking about again. And I was told, actually, you can have the Duchess. And I was like, amazing. And I was told that we'd get 45 minutes. And I was like, oh, amazing. And then nothing was said.

Like there was, I wasn't asked for weeks. I wasn't asked for a brief of what I would be talking about anything like that you know it was it was I felt like part of the team and it was amazing and then literally a few nights before uh one of the teams said can we just you know if this was a normal podcast can we have a list of what you would ask and but also in keeping with the survey and stuff so I just thought you know you know what? Sod it. I'm going to just send in like there are no rules. Yeah. The worst thing that can happen is they'll say, well, you can't talk about that.

Exactly. The worst they can say is, no, you had to try. Yeah. Because otherwise I'd be kicking myself for life if I didn't. Yeah, that's true. So, yeah. So I sent in how I thought it could work. And actually in that first idea, I did have a section where we were going to throw to the experts

to really give an in-depth chat about the survey and everything. So I sent it off and they looked at all the different things I wanted to cover. They were like, oh, we don't know if she even did have the birthing. So we don't know if she'll want to talk about that. We don't know. But we think maybe one of these things she'll really hit the birthing. So we don't know if she'll want to talk about that. Morning sickness, we don't know. But we think maybe one of these things she'll really go to town on. And I was like, amazing. So then the night before, I had a phone call from her comms guy.

And he was laughing down the phone. And he was just saying she wants to talk about all of it. So I think there's been an internal conversation about, you know, just talk, just talk just talk freely as with all these conversations I think when you start putting up barriers when you start thinking I can't talk about that because of this I can't talk about that it actually gets really stifling and you can't have a natural conversation absolutely at the end of the day she's still a mom and a woman she's not like an alien yeah exactly I we went into that yeah and then I've really gone around the houses to talk about this but basically we ended up being in this room in this nursery because it was off the back of a royal engagement and we were together for almost an hour and a half

and it was the most I know and it was absolutely incredible and what I loved I loved knowing how knowledgeable she is how much she cares about early years like she's so invested what she has learned has made her reflect on her own motherhood a mothering experience and how self-deprecating she is as well it was just really really lovely and uh and it's just crazy that literally after that came lockdown literally I know much later I wasn't seeing anyone so I'm really interested in what you said about how well-versed she is and how passionate she is and how much work she does behind the scenes on earlier stuff in the middle of lockdown we actually at netmums had an approach from her to say could we collaborate on trying to understand

what was happening to children especially like preschoolers in lockdown and we did some work with her and I was blown away by it's almost like a job for her yeah I like she really does treat it like a job like she really does care she's not just showing up and shaking hands and smiling for the cameras she really knows her stuff she really does does she have her notebook with her as well when you met her well we couldn't meet her because we had to do a zoom because of lockdown yes um but it was just very clear that she knew the science she understood the science yeah she had a very serious concern about what was going to happen to kids in lockdown who were vulnerable i was just really blown away and massively impressed well it's interesting isn't it because

obviously they've got all the response to the survey. They've got all those answers back in now. They know where the areas are that they really need to focus on. And then lockdown happens, a massive pandemic happens. And you know, those areas that are already suffering are going to suffer even more. I know that you can't wait to get moving and to get the wheels in motion, which I know she is going to carry on doing now, like working with you guys.

She really does care. She was the top of the tree for you. Who do you want now? Who could possibly surpass the Duchess? I'd love Michelle Obama. Oh, man. You've got to do it. You've got to get her.

That would be amazing. Wouldn't it? I was hoping when she was over for her book that there would be time. But, you know, I don't have the connections yet. But I'll keep like nibbling away and see what I can do. Now, look, G, we have to ask you this because you are just so nice on everything that you're on that you're just so nice. Do you never have bad thoughts about anyone or is it just that you're really nice in public and then you sit there at the end of the day?

And she was nice and she was horrible and I don't like her. Tom would probably say that I have times where I'm not very nice um I think it's really think about what we put out there and I don't have time for bitchiness for um tearing other people down especially online I don't I don't see the point in it and I think probably in my 20 growing up only in the last couple of years, have I kind of looked at different friendships even and realized sometimes I go for friends that don't want to be my friend. Sometimes it's all about realizing that it's OK if everyone doesn't get on. It's OK if you don't connect with certain people. Just step away. Because obviously I have arguments and I have moments.

But yeah, on the whole, I think sometimes when I see moments but yeah on the whole I think sometimes when I see people having arguments on Twitter and stuff I'm just a bit like really is it worth it to get that angry to get that annoyed by something obviously if it's really if it really means something if someone's really done wrong by someone and that's completely different and also I'm at home the majority of the time you know writing and it's just nice to get out of the house and meet people I don't need the drama well as Michelle Obama would say when they go low we go high exactly and I think even when it comes to trolls and things like that I just think you don't know what that person has gone through

that day and whatever else and I just to add to that that's not really that good either but what happens when you're the target like I can remember distinctly there was a really vicious trolling thing directed at you about baby weight at one point and I wanted to climb into my phone and throttle people how do you stay sane when you're the target? That must be so tough. Yeah, it is tough. I think the restrict button now is amazing because it's better than blocking. Yeah, that's made a big difference, I think. Things like that.

Things like weight. It kind of feeds into your own insecurities. Yeah, for most women, learning to not even love your body, to respect your body and to accept your body it's a journey I know people hate that word I don't think people can say the word journey without saying I know people hate that word but it is a process it's a journey and um and I think if someone catches you at a point where you are feeling quite low about it that can be quite

tough it's hard isn't it I'd like to think that if someone was to say something negative now I'd be a bit like well I've given birth three times and you know I'm just thankful not to be I don't know dead I'm dead yeah yeah I mean it's marvelous yeah um it's very hard the restrict button's amazing but what I find tough is that whenever I say it's fine, just brush it off, there's always going to be something that hits. And we all know it's said so much. You're going to get 100 nice comments, but that one negative one is the one that you'll read as true. So there's something about the nice comments that you think...

Yes, it's human nature. Yeah, it's strange. But also I think it's probably good to keep yourself in check because if you know you can't if we take on board all the nice comments as well you'd get quite a big head i think it's just good to maybe just really dare brush it off you know i've not heard anyone say that think of all the trolls as a reality check to keep you grounded that's a really good don't let it good point. Don't let it go too deep. Don't let it go too deep. Just on the surface level.

Yeah. You've somehow got to stay in the middle of the scale, haven't you? And all the terrible things happening at one end and the amazing things happening at the other have almost got to fade away and you've just got to stay locked to the centre. Otherwise, you'll always lose your way, won't you? I do this thing every now and then

if I am having a bit of a wobble. I do a post or a dump and go so literally I post and then I just leave my phone I don't go on it but yeah I did this thing once because I know that some people some people that have negative comments they try and engage uh and try and uh on a on a rational level uh and I did that with one person once and it just uh went downhill even worse and I just thought oh god that's the last time I'm ever going to engage actually it's better to just not do that yeah that's tough that's tough so is it a fingers in the ears kind of thing or a private weeping kind of thing or a mixture of the two god I'm loathe to say that I haven't

wept over it for a while because that means I probably have a big crying fest tonight and also I'm not being funny hormones and stuff like that my own physical well-being my own why I wake up every morning and I'm in agony and you know and I think maternal mental health everything like that we all have so much to focus on doing it for ourselves so someone else's voice you can't pay any attention to that because what is actually happening with you and your body is far more important than someone else's you know flippant opinion that they might post just because they're a bit groggy because they didn't have milk for their cereal you know so you said that things are ramping up for mcfly at the moment and tom's off being the band for a while how is it having a husband who's a boy band member who loads of

other women fancy it's got to be a bit weird, we've been together now for 17 years, I think, and known each other for 22. 17 years of that. So the whole time we've been together, he has been in a boy band. You know, I think we are, well, we are older now. That's a fact. And long gone are the days where girls scream and run after him. And, you know, it's a very different setup now.

You're more likely to have little kids come over to Tom and go, I read your books and they're amazing. Yeah, that's true. Tom's a bit of a hybrid now because he's crossed over a little bit. Yeah, I don't think I've ever been a jealous girlfriend or wife. I think it's part of his job and it's amazing I think we all have a big appreciation for music and how that makes us feel and it's great that he is in a job where he gets people in touch with their emotions and they're allowed to let loose and express

themselves so it's just part of the job but I'm sure there are loads of people who fancy me funny you should say that because I need to tell you a secret about Wendy Wendy cries sorry when Wendy cries every time she watches his wedding speech so he very much is good at provoking emotions at least in Wendy now is it weird sharing that with someone is it weird that someone like wendy watches that every day sorry you're making me out to be a nutter no it's not weird because i think it originally was posted no wendy you're not weird it's okay we put it out there um originally it was posted just so that we could share it on Facebook

and for our friends and family who were overseas, whatever, couldn't come to the wedding. It's a nice way of celebrating your marriage and everything. And then, yeah, it just kind of went viral. It went nuts. It's amazing. Yeah. But friends reference it when they're writing books and all sorts it's great but

I just find it fun any word any wedding we go to now bearing in mind we've been married eight years still when we go to weddings in the in the groom speech they will reference the fact that Tom is there and that he has screwed them over you've got in my wedding speech and my husband doesn't even know who you are that's hilarious i love that talking of crying we would be lying if we didn't say you do cry quite a lot on your own i do hope that it gets sponsored by kleenex soon i can't help it you know what in series two i can remember before going in so we had i watched davina on them i think she was on whatever good morning britain was called back then um but i watched davina talking about um long lost families and how she never cried

and how because at the moment where she's delivering the news um of where the long-lost family are uh it's all about that person receiving news and it's their story it's not for her to um to share her emotions in that moment and I was like great I'm gonna channel Davina it's great literally the day that Davina came on the podcast, I had two women, Ella and Michelle, two mums who had both lost their babies. So Teddy died a few days after being born and then Orla died. She was stillborn. And I can remember going into that podcast thinking, channel Davina, channel Davina. It's about them. You should all channel Davina channel Davina it's about them to be honest yeah and then Davina was going to be the next person that I was going to have in the studio and literally I can't any

time I think that that topic as well I mean it doesn't take much to set me off but that topic as well I think it's as a mother even as a human I mean yeah as a human but feel oh it's yeah and then when you're in a studio when you've got that voice in your ears when you can hear someone's breath when you can hear the crack in a voice and they're speaking oh my god as soon as they went I went um and that day the saving grace was I could literally go straight into Davina's arms afterwards and have a good old cuddle I can't help it even joyful things sometimes sometimes I'm crying and the guest isn't crying um no I'm a big crier I cry when anyone leaves leaves our team at work or like if I see someone who looks a bit sad on the street I might get a bit of a tear in my eye I think crying is normal really when you see someone

on the street crying do you ever go over and say yes every time every time yeah I did in a coffee shop once it was a national trust coffee shop and she had a baby that was probably like two months old or so and then a toddler that was going off and you know when a toddler has wound up and that's it they've pressed the go button and nothing is going to stop them yes yeah I just went over she was sat there and my friend and I were like are you okay and she was like no and so we took her toddler outside for a second so she could feed the baby and afterwards then she was then crying because someone had helped her and it's just it shouldn't make oh it's just awful when you see someone doing that and no one goes to help them I know we all are in it together we

need to do that a bit more I think I think I think there's something amazing about going over to another person saying are you okay especially a mum because I think we all know that in that moment you can feel so judged you can feel like everyone is watching you for the wrong reasons rather than perhaps they're watching you going I remember those times oh gosh hope she's okay it feels like there's judgment there instead so going over and just letting them know that you're aware of the situation and that it's okay I think it's I think it's the best thing ever yeah it is so talking about baby loss we know that you're affiliated to Tommy's can you tell us a bit about why that matters so much to you um so I had a miscarriage before buzz um so I had PCOS um I knew that so I'd come off the pillow I just didn't get my period

back at all which at the time was great so I remember thinking oh this is nice I don't have to worry about the hormones they're all you know having periods or anything and then about a year in I was like well this is actually something might not quite be right um and then two tests later I found out I had PCOS and and my doctor my GP was just a bit flippant about the whole thing and just passed me a leaflet that she'd printed off the internet and and I was a bit like what about having babies and I think that I was engaged by that point and she was like oh well there's not nothing to worry about yet but on this blooming leaflet she'd given me it said infertility and I was like well

I don't know how is that not something to panic about yeah I would be freaking out yeah and she put me on this pill that was awful Emma Willis was pregnant with her second child at the time. And the way that the pill made me feel was worse than what Emma was experiencing in actual pregnancy. It was awful. But like what? Like physically bad or emotionally bad? Physically bad. I felt nauseous the whole time. It was just horrible. So Emma made me go and see her doctor and he was absolutely amazing and put me on metformin and clomid and then um well eventually once but metformin until I knew that

I wanted to start trying and then clomid as well. Hang on how did you get metformin then? Metformin so uh it sorts out your uh sugar levels essentially and because I know yeah so it's the same yeah it's the same medication that my father-in-law takes for diabetes basically when you have PCOS your body produces too much insulin this is my terms I'm not a doctor but this is how I've written about this before yeah ah okay so your body produces too much insulin which then produces too much insulin, which then produces too much testosterone, which then makes too many follicles be produced in the ovaries. And therefore, none of the eggs can be fully formed, basically. People with PCOS are recommended to go on a low GI diet because the blood sugar element of PCOS is so significant. It's one of those things, isn't it? It's not enough just to take the tablets you have to change your diet as well and well so I went on that and it was it was brilliant and I took

Clomid and I fell pregnant and um really quite quickly and like I remember thinking this is it's too good it's too good to be true and um yeah and I and I miscarcarried at six and a half weeks. And Tom at the time was on a radio tour. He'd had to leave that morning. And so I went to see the sonographer on my own. Oh, gee, that's rubbish. And then I think about the people now going through it. Oh, my God, I know.

I just can't imagine, you know, what that's like. And I can remember being in, I got a taxi to the surgery. And I can remember Bob Marley's Every got a taxi to the surgery and I can remember Bob Marley's Every Little Thing's Gonna Be All Right playing and just stop it I'm gonna go now even now I have to turn that song off I can't have it on and even though I know that everything was okay because if that hadn't have happened I wouldn't have buzz and I always say that buzz is my silver lining but um yeah in that moment it was so hard because that was the first time that was my first brush with motherhood and I felt like I'd failed

but yeah I just think of the people going through it now and my heart bleeds for them to get news that you can't have your significant other or whoever with you when you're getting that news and I know what that feels like. Thankfully, Tom was around the corner. So he was literally at Radio 1 doing an interview, then driving straight on to Birmingham for something else. So straight after the interview, he drive around and gave me a cuddle and literally had to go off for work. But yeah, so for me, I think knowing how I felt,

knowing how little was said about it, how much the conversation is hidden with you know this whole thing of oh you mustn't tell people you're pregnant until you're 12 weeks why not yeah because you're going to jink because because if something goes wrong you're going to want those people around you I remember texting my family because I couldn't talk but at the same time I wanted them to know that something happened and it was a weird thing of wanting them in some way to put their arms around me but not if you get me I didn't I wanted their comfort but also I knew that it would upset them as well so I had to kind of distance myself from their hurting to cope with my own um so I text my whole family

and then I did speak to my mum and I did speak to my dad and they were both, you know, individually crying. And, you know, because I think it's that thing, isn't it? Which I touch on a lot in the podcast. You worry about your children. And then when they get older, you're still worrying about your child. Of course. And that was a situation that they couldn't stick a plaster on.

They couldn't fix it. So for me, getting that conversation out there, letting people know they're not on their own, I think it's so important. And Tommy's, the work that they do is just incredible. They have talks with Professor Quinby, who is the most amazing woman ever. They do trials. They look into miscarriage and find out why it happens

and how it can be prevented. And they're just incredible so yes so for the last three years I've hosted their awards and have become a part of their team their extended team anyone who's going through it turn to them because there are so many voices that will give you comfort in what you're experiencing and I think sometimes when you're at your lowest hearing other people say they felt the same is just the biggest comfort so gee you do quite a lot at the moment you're a mum you're an author you have a very successful podcast and now you're adding live events to your bow yeah first of all are they live as in we can come i'm guessing not how can you come along and what are they going to be it's going to be virtual because the last

couple of years we've been able to go out and about and actually put on sort of a show if you like a sit down audience panel type show and this year we can't do that because you know we're all in six guys you can't do that right now but this is a virtual event which I love because I think as a mum it is quite tricky to commit to things and to go out and be somewhere at a set time as lovely as it is to leave the family behind it's not always possible so this is going to be a four-day event between the 15th and the 18th of october um there are going to be five different talks um a day and it's brilliant they're all about empowering the mum and uh and getting different conversations out there we're going to have everything from first aid to physical health to pelvic health and i love it it's just like an extension of the podcast but bigger with actual experts to get involved as well so you're not going to believe this go on well this is the

ultimate mum nightmare the school is calling me no what why why are we doing this do it phone answer answer I'm intrigued now go and answer right Annie you go and ask the question yeah you need to find out what's going on. Well, in a way, this links into what I was going to ask next. So, G, out of all the roles and kind of the many hats that you wear, how do you prioritise them or what do you feel most committed to or proud of? You've got author, mum, mummy blogger, pod host, charity ambassador. How do you rank them?

Mum always has to come first. And I think in lockdown, it's kind of made me see, made me realise how to rank the others. That's interesting. Yeah. And I know that, you know, your online stuff is important because it helps you feel connected to the outside world. But at the same time, I've had to decrease that because I need to be at home and actually having this other thing hasn't been that great. Whereas writing, that's something for me and is a proper job, for want of a better way of expressing it, that is a focus. And writing, so I've had to do extra letters for Letters of Motherhood for the paperback release next year. That's been good. That's been therapeutic. However, on the flip side of that, with the boys back at school, suddenly I've loved being back on Instagram stories.

And, you know, it felt easy and free, whereas during lockdown, it felt very forced to put something up sometimes. So I would actually choose not to. I think that's how I kind of work. I haven't had to feel like I've had to post because I should. And I've hoped that everyone is in the same boat and focusing on their families rather than this external thing. It's interesting that you say it was lockdown

that's kind of helped you reprioritise. I think it's made a lot of us reflect on how we lead our lives the thing i've taken out of it in terms of parenting is we were doing way too much we were going to way too many swimming lessons ballet classes blah blah blah blah blah and actually once that was stripped away i realized we didn't really miss it the kids didn't miss it they didn't need it and why were we getting up at seven on a Saturday to drive someone yeah we realized that we've got to fill these things in and actually you don't I'm back huh what was it what about an emergency yeah what did they want she's got a temperature shit oh sorry she

which one big one so once I've finished here I shall go and get her. But wait, does that mean you all have to isolate? I don't know. Who knows? The rules are too confusing. But wait, you just edited the story of what to do if the story is live on the site right now. What to do if your child gets sent home at the temperature. Who's got the honest story? You have to get a test.

I have to find somewhere to get her a test, I think. But there are no tests at the moment. That's the challenge. Oh, I know. Someone at my school's off. She texted today to say that her daughter's off and she's got no test. She got in touch with the doctors and they said,

you can only get a test if you don't have symptoms. What? Which doesn't make sense. That's the opposite of what Matt Hancock said. That's what I said. That's what I said. That's what I said. Okay, well, Wendy, I'll let you in on a trade secret. Our headmistress emailed all of us and said,

if you're finding it hard to get a test, present to A&E. They can't turn you away. Right, well, that's my afternoon sorted then. Wendy, you don't need this in your life. But this is the problem with going back to school. No one knows. I bet you any money she's just a bit under the weather. She always gets the temperature when she's just a bit run down. It's the first with going back to school no one knows I bet you any money she's just a bit under the weather she always gets the temperature when she's just a bit run down it's the first full

week back she's just knackered so she's got a temperature which means you've got to get a test then if she doesn't have it can she go back or does she do you still have to isolate no all of the family has to self-isolate until you clear test and then if she does have it the whole class or the whole year gets sent home with the teacher like what happens at school her bubble has to i i don't know i think bubbles are ridiculous i agree the two boys are in two different bubbles at school they'll have people in their bubble who are siblings in another bubble and it's just I just don't understand how they expect that to work and it's October soon all the kids are going to be snotty they're all going to have temperatures none of them are going

to have anything other than back to school bugs it's just so hard yeah oh anyway moving on moving swiftly on okay so well I was i was interested in what you just said about instagram that sometimes it feels a bit forced so you step away from it but then on a day like today it felt good so you went with it yeah how does that impact not just your life but your relationship are there days where it feels comfortable to share and then days where you want to stab him in the head with a fork and you're like I'm not going to share any of you on my Instagram feed like how does that work um well all of my posts are shared in the moment when I feel like it you don't have a team of people who you send pictures to once a week and they go oh today we'll put up the nice picture

of them going for a walk no because some people do do that some people do do that and today we've just got the picture of her stabbing him in the eyeball with a fork yeah no and it's very quick and and actually one thing about lockdown I realized is that sometimes it's okay to just feel a moment write a a sentence rather than blue in 10,000 words and that be enough. That's fine. I don't post anything if I don't feel it and I have to be in that moment.

I also feel a bit funny about posting anything that's taken a week ago. I just think if you took that photo, use it now rather than like, it's almost instant, isn't it? So it's in that moment it's not unless it's a throwback thursday it's not here's a happy time from last week you know that's why you connect with people so well because it's not curated and it's not yes like i was joking about your pink door and your lovely pink wallpaper but you haven't sat there

and thought this is how I look this is what I want to show you're like shit I've got porridge in my hair and this has happened I was literally shoving makeup on my face in the middle of the corner school started that makes me feel a lot better when I hear things like that and I think that is I mean we keep talking about lockdown but I don't know when we'll not talk about lockdown but I think that's another thing I was always someone who's never really bothered about makeup and being online and feeling like you have to look a certain way I'd much rather present myself as myself in my nudist face form for instance my frizzy hair and then go out in makeup and someone go oh you look much prettier in real life than the other

way around you know and then the whole face tune thing is just I just can't get to grips with what that is doing to people I don't know what the long-term effects of that is going to be because at some point you have to look in the mirror and like what you see. Well, I've got daughters. I just worry so much about what they're going to grow up having to think about that we didn't have to think about. It's so true. And also everyone's trying to look like one person. It's terrifying. Everyone's trying to look like one thing.

Everyone wants to look the same because if someone goes missing, you know, there's no one's going to know what that person looks like because everyone looks the same or I know all mums worry about everything to do with their kids but in terms of that appearance side of things do you worry as much for your boys as you think perhaps mums of girls do no I don't worry about boys with their physical being I think that's um yeah I don't worry about that at all actually yeah they don't talk Buzz is uh Buzz is watching Spider-Man actually so he's talking about his muscles

quite a lot and he gets his guns out at any opportunity it's so funny um but I think with boys I worry more about mental health and about talking about their feelings and feeling accepted and accepting themselves for who they are and and owning who they are and feeling comfortable with their decisions and I've got one boy who hangs around with girls the whole time and and he plays chase the boy all the time and he actually loves that and he and there is no qualms within him at all about his choices then I've got the other another who hangs around with boys all the time and loves football. And they're both very secure in who they are and their choices. And I think as a mum, you worry about at some point someone else stepping in or them reading something

or seeing something that makes them doubt who they are. You would do anything to stop that moment from ever happening wouldn't you that's the one thing i would wish for my kids is that they could stay confident in their choices and about who they are yeah and and i think that's well that is the terrifying thing as they get older is you know less and less but as soon as they start school you know less and less about their day you know buddy started school last week for the you know he's now there five days a week and we know less and less about who's getting on with and we all have that thing where they get in the car and you say how's your day it's all right but who did you play with don't know don't remember yeah what did

you have for lunch don't remember yeah yeah um and i think it makes the fear inside you just suddenly you know it's there straight away uh and actually we had the first night last night where buzz came home he did have an after school club last night actually it's the only one that he has and he came home and he just wanted to go upstairs and play lego but part of me is like no because this is how it starts you to go off on your own and then you're going to segregate yourself from the rest of the family. But in reality, he's been at school all day. He's had a busy week. He's had a long day and he just wants a little bit of time to just play with his Lego and just think his own thoughts rather than hearing us all babbling away. Yeah. You've just said Buddy started. Did you weep on the first yes no I didn't cry

and I was fully prepared I think there was a moment I got all the clothes I've labeled everything they were all sorted everything was laid out I lay everything out the night before because I'm that kind of mom I can't do with the running around trying to get shorts or socks in the morning everything is laid out and um there was just a moment like before where i was like wow this is it and this is two of them going off to school and and where before we had the freedom to kind of you know when we were working if we if we were home we could be with him and make the most of being with him all of a sudden that opportunity was not going to be there anymore and i say all of a sudden we knew it was coming but yeah it's um

it's a very weird feeling so I'm always suddenly hit by those emotions but then the next day and I was preparing myself for both of them to get a bit emotional it's been a long time they've been off uh but they both literally waltzed in didn't look back didn't care didn't cry um and but thankfully I saw my friend straight away so it was kind of the moment was kind of skimmed over if you like so we didn't get to dwell in it and which I think is best I find it honest when buddy was going into nursery and really crying and grabbing hold of my neck and you know nursery staff having to sort of peel him off me like some sort of it just makes me think of that horrible moment in Suffragettes.

Oh, yeah. Where the son is taken away from the mum. Don't stop. That's too much. That breaks my heart. Don't. I know. And then, Annie, you're like me.

You cry. You're a crier. I'm a big crier. I'm worse than you, Vee. She really is. But it's that moment isn't it and that is far harder than having a child who just feels confident and happy enough to just walk into school so I'm counting my blessings and getting prepared for Max next year whenever he's going to say let me talk to you after Max because when you send the smallest one in it's a whole different ball game I don't cry I am

not a crier and I was full-on snot down the face or weeping I was literally talking to my mum about this earlier actually and she said because Mario is my younger brother and um about a batwood brother and mum was saying how both of them cried for a month and she was like she couldn't get over it there's something about being the baby and the last one it's just so final well wait for this so my aunt and uncle say that the worst day of their lives was when they dropped the youngest one at university my aunt says that my uncle had to pull the car over to the side of the road as they left the town where they'd left him and she said she'd never seen a grown man cry like a baby as much as he cried that day

that's making me really emotional honestly oh okay oh my gosh we've got like 15 years gee we can prepare i think we need to form a support group to prepare ourselves in advance. I think so. Oh, my gosh. And I remember, in fact, this can be your connection to Michelle Obama. She said the same about Barack. Apparently, when Barack left them at university,

she said she'd never seen anything like it, like he couldn't cope at all. Really? Oh, don't the thought of him crying. I know, it's just too much she said that leaving the white house wasn't as distressing to him as leaving the girls at university oh i know that is scary isn't it because i think when they become teenagers and young adults you know that they're exposed to different things but you kind of have a little bit of control in the fact that you know they're coming home different things, but you kind of have a little bit of control

in the fact that you know they're coming home every night. So you can kind of, in a way, oversee things. But when they go off to uni and they're not with you at all and you know they'll never call, that's heartbreaking. But you always think about Buzz wanting to go and play Lego. What the hell are you going to be doing? You're going to be in it. in connection to this something that we notice a lot of on net moms that i despise and cannot abide and actually once fell out really badly with a friend about is a lot of people assume that if

it's almost better to have girls because they'll somehow stay connected to you in a way that boys won't when they grow up. And I think that's nonsense. I think it's absolute rubbish. But there seems to be this kind of inherent general belief that having a girl is better for that reason. Do you ever feel like a weirdness around the fact that people kind of almost think that having boys is lesser, do you? No, I don't think that at at all and I think people are really forgetting how challenging mother-daughter relationships can be I think uh yes all this on the films and how it's amazing when they're going out for brunch and lunch and having champagne and shopping and we all know people that have experiences of it being nothing like that. And actually it's a really complex relationship. I think with sons, actually, it's really simple.

They love their mums and they will protect and look after them. So for me, I feel like I'm on to a win with boys. But I think you're lucky to have either. And it's all about the individual connections that you have. You can't have a blanket. Boys are going to be like this with their mums exactly like this even the thing I mean me and

Tom joke about the fact that if we'd have had three girls it'd be very different like the dynamics in the house would be different they sit down and color in and it would be nice and quiet and lovely and at the moment it's loud everyone's jumping but then I've got a niece Summer Rae who's just as boisterous as my boys and just as you know physical and everything so you know I don't think it's all these labels that we love putting on people and it's crazy that it starts so young my mum has a really good saying which is you can only parent the child you have i.e they're each going to need a different part of you and they're each going to have a completely unique relationship with you and gender to me doesn't have anything to do with that i just

noticed that in the forums on netmums people often talk about the girls as if they're the prize and they're a bit disappointed if they have a boy and it just breaks my heart but now you've got 3g do you still because i presume that when you had two you often got asked the question oh are you going to go for another do you want a girl do people still assume that you're going to keep going until you've got that so say longed for girl or is it kind of backed off a bit now it's so funny isn't it because I've never ever thought I'd love a girl or either sex I just felt very lucky to be having children but has the question died out I wonder more if people feel like oh she didn't get the girl you know what I mean I wonder

if it's more that yeah I just think well jokes on you because I don't feel sad that I've not got a girl and I do pin everything on summer rain like me and summer rain are going to go for cocktails and shopping trips it's going to be lovely but um maybe I've been very vocal about the fact that having three kids has broken me so people don't dare ask um but I don't know I think I do you know what people can never help asking I don't think people would mean when they ask oh you're going for another I think it's sometimes it's just a conversation starter for some people but yeah I would never have another child to have a girl um I'd have another child to have another child but I mean never say never because I was gonna say are you telling us something there G is there a little glint in the eye no I just can't I just say that to cover

my own back just in case your insurance policy yeah uh because I always thought that I would have a third child now at this point rather than two years ago so you know these things do happen and I'd hate any fourth child to kind of feel like they weren't wanted. It's always a funny thing. Was he planned? Well, what does planned mean? Yes. So yeah, I don't, I think the conversation around girls and boys is always going to exist. And I mean, if people want to come over and look after more children that I have, I mean, three children is massive

I just look at people that have there's Helen I can't forget her I can't remember her surname who's got nine children a massive businesswoman what's her name oh I can't remember but she's got nine children and it's amazing and it all And good for her. I struggle with three. I struggle with two. No, no. Yeah, I struggle with two. Know your limit. I was about to say, everyone needs to know what their own limits are.

I'm definitely at mine. Yeah, maybe. You never know. When they're all at school, there might be a little bit of emptiness syndrome. But I have to say say things like them all being out of their high chairs them all being in proper beds I have felt relieved at every stage yes there's a hint of sadness of oh we'll be using this high chair again there's the cock gone but at the same time I'm like get in like we're on for the next chapter. We're on the wall when this airs and Tom hears you saying this, I have to say.

I know. The pleasure household, the night that he hears this podcast. Okay, we've got two questions left. Wendy, you go first, I'll go second. One of the things we always ask our podcasts is what's for tea? Well, I have some sausages in the fridge that need to be eaten

by today so something with those maybe a sausage pasta or i might see if there are some waffles in the fridge if they've been particularly good oh it's such a mum thing to say or something in the fridge that needs to be eaten yes exactly i was going to be really envious if you're one of those mums who was like well on the on the 11th of every month um i pick organic beans from the garden and then i've got to say the last six months i've been growing tomatoes and peppers nothing is ready to eat but we've got loads of them yeah and to be honest they might not make it because we're in September now and they might not be ready in time but um yeah yeah we've got tomatoes and peppers that at some point I will be

uh eating I don't know if they'll be any good but here's a tip you have to pick the tomatoes and bring them indoors green and put them next to a banana and they'll go red. No, but Wendy, why not just leave them on the vine to go red? Why would you bring them in green? If the temperature drops, they never go red. Oh, I see. Yes, that's a really good idea. Gee, go and do that now. What is it about bananas if everything ripens?

Who knows? I don't even like bananas. They give off some kind of fume or something, I think. Bananas are quite potent, you know? A lot of people get migraines if they like bananas? They give off some kind of fume or something, I think. Bananas are quite potent, you know? A lot of people get migraines if they eat bananas. Really? Maybe we should stand next to pyjamas. Pyjamas, bananas. We shouldn't stand next to them too much.

They might ripen us. Yes, that's very true. Right, last question of all, G. It's an uncomfortable one. Sing us your lullaby. Every family has a lullaby that they resort to when a child won't sleep what's yours that's the song that makes me cry well get this so actually we had this one night where the first night that tom was away and i was

doing the bedtime for with all three boys for the first time. And Max just wasn't settling. The other two just kept coming out of their room. So, you know, he was seeing them and no one was nice and calm. So I decided to get the boys to get their pillows. They laid on the floor next to Max's cot. I laid on the floor, turned the lights off, made it all nice. And then I started singing Edelweiss to help Max go to sleep. And then Buzz and Buddy started doing it as well. It was the cutest together.

I didn't see it coming because for me, Edelweiss is a song that reminds me of my nan who was obsessed with the sound of music and Judy Andrews. So for my kids to be singing it as well, it got me very emotional. Annie's gone quiet because she's basically weeping somewhere now. So I know we keep talking about me crying, but it's the bit in the movie that I always fast forward because it absolutely destroys me.

And my kids now know that. So anytime they want to tease me, they play it and then they sit and watch me cry so so thanks for absolutely ruining me today that's really great thank you she's wobbly can you hear her sorry sorry annie i'll just go and sit and weep in the corner no it's been brilliant thanks so much g we've had a really fun time so thank you oh it's lovely to chat to you thanks g have a good fiday have fun bye thank you bye