The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep43: Dr Ranj: Kids’ Covid vaccines special

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Confused as to whether Covid vaccines for kids are happening or not, and if so, whether your child should have one? Dr Ranj answers all your most asked questions – from whose eligible right now, to THOSE side-effect rumours.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Sweat, Snot and Tears. But it's a special one today because we've got our favourite guy back with us.

Dr Ranj, say hi to everyone. Hello everyone. Good, good, good. Now, we're here because we're going to talk about something with us. Dr. Ran, say hi to everyone. Hello, everyone. Good, good, good. Now, we're here because we're going to talk about something quite serious. Yes. Something not as light-hearted as we normally do. We want to talk COVID vaccines, but specifically, we want to talk COVID vaccines for kids. Yes.

Because there's been an announcement from the government about COVID vaccines for kids, but it feels quite small scale. And we know you're all in a frenzy in the forum saying why can't my child have it or i would never let my child have it so we want to talk to dr ranch bust some of this and find out what's actually going on okay so first up please can you outline for us in simple words because w Wendy and I aren't the smartest. Can you outline for us what the announcement said? Yes. So the situation regarding COVID vaccines is changing all the time, as you know. It's a dynamic thing. We're learning as we go along. The advice is changing

as we go along. That's not because we have got stuff wrong. That's just hopefully that we are getting stuff more and more right as we go along so the latest announcement is that there is a recommendation that children between the ages of 12 to 15 should be vaccinated with a covid vaccine and it will be the Pfizer one or one of the mRNA ones if they are at higher risk of COVID because of specific conditions or situations. For example, if they've got severe neuro disability, which includes cerebral palsy, autism, epilepsy, if they've got Down syndrome, if they have a severely weakened immune system, which includes some children with cancer, or if they've got profound and multiple learning difficulties. Those who are at higher risk who are 16 and, can already be vaccinated under the existing rules.

And if your child is approaching 18, if they're within three months of turning 18, then they should also be offered the jab as well. So the JCVI, which is the organisation, the body that sort of makes recommendations on who should be vaccinated and when, has also recommended immunising any 12 to 17 year olds who live with someone who's got a suppressed immune system as a form of indirect protection for that person as well. It is confusing. And like I say, the goalposts seem to keep changing. but the reason that happens is because we are very much learning more and more about covid and about vaccination as we go along and therefore the guidance has to change and can i ask should parents wait to be called for these vaccines um so if you have a 13 year old who you believe comes under the list of what you've just classed as vulnerable, should you be contacting your GP or will they contact you?

Because I know that as adults, there's been some confusion around that and whether you're going to get your letter or a text. So how does it work for kids? In very simple terms terms we don't know honesty is the best policy i'll be perfectly honest with you so in a perfect world in a perfect system your gp surgery should contact you and say that your child or wherever your child is registered is due a vaccination however we know that gp surgeries are currently swamped with all sorts of stuff trying to do vaccinations as well as catching up on everything else so there may be a bit of a delay in that system if you haven't heard i would say within

the next month or so i would definitely be getting in touch with them and saying look apparently my child falls into this at-risk group. I'd like them to be vaccinated. If they qualify, would you be able to offer a vaccine? I'm not sure as yet as to whether those children are allowed to go to the walk-in centres. So we're not quite clear on that just yet um or exactly where they would be vaccinated but that sort of information usually is out on social media or it's on the gov.uk website or the nhs.uk website usually um but like i said we're all kind of waiting for the information to trickle down ourselves as well it's only just been announced okay can i hit you up yeah tricky question

you can try i have been in the netrunner forums prepping for this channel what i want to know is what are real people asking about this what do they want to know yeah and something you said when you were explaining who the vaccine covers and everything yeah will be a trigger for them because one of the things i'm hearing them say is it feels too new it feels like everyone's learning as they go along i don't want to give something to my child that's not based on you know science that's been around for decades this sounds like everyone's just making it up as they go along yeah what can we say to allay those people those people's fears You could be absolutely forgiven for feeling like that,

for feeling like everything's a bit of a rush and maybe it's all a bit brand new and uncertain and that people don't know what they're doing. If I can reassure people in any way, the technology in which these vaccines is based has been around for a very long time. This is not brand new technology. We're just using it in a slightly different way. Remember, worldwide, millions upon millions upon millions of doses have been administered. That never happens in a real situation, in a normal situation. Normally, it would take years and years for that to happen. And if I can reassure anyone, the vast majority of significant side effects usually happen within the first few months. So we've got through that period now. We know that

people of all age groups and backgrounds and situations have been vaccinated, including pregnant people, including children in some countries. And the big signal that we're getting is that these vaccines for the vast majority of people are safe. And what you've got to do, it is a risk. Remember, you know, with any new medicine, with any medicine you give your child, there is a potential that they could have a side effect. But what you've got to do is weigh up the risks of those side effects with the risks of Covid itself, which you could argue for children are quite low, actually. But then let's add to that the risk of long COVID, which is a bit more of a significant situation. Add to that the risk of passing it around to other vulnerable people.

Bit more risk involved there. Add to that, on top of that, that the more we allow the infection to exist naturally, the more we allow the virus to infect lots of people the more chances we have of a new variant emerging for variants to develop the virus has to infect people it can't just develop into a new variant whilst it's just sitting there well and we've already seen that with delta haven't we like delta is already a way more transmissible yes which is scary yes but also i think actually with particular efforts to kids correct me if i'm wrong it makes people more likely to be symptomatic than asymptomatic yeah and the symptoms it may cause are slightly different we think yes to the classic variants that we've had so this is this is the problem with new variants every time a new variant

emerges we've almost got to catch up with it and try and work out again learn it learn them a lot about it not not everything but yeah you're absolutely right learn a lot about it and anything we can do to keep new variants at bay is an important thing the problem is with vaccinating children and i totally understand why people get very heated up about this and very worried, is that the risk to children from COVID is actually quite low. And I'm not saying that children haven't got sick. Some children have got really poorly and had long term problems. We've got to acknowledge that. And we've also got to acknowledge that there are a whole group of vulnerable,

shielding children out there that haven't been allowed out, that have no exit strategy back to normal life because their peers aren't being vaccinated. So we've got to take all of this into the greater risks to society from COVID as well. And the fact that, you know, children and young people have a part to play. And the difficult balance has been that the risk from vaccinating versus the risk from COVID and COVID related stuff is a really tricky balance for kids. And the margins are much, much smaller, which is why it takes a lot longer to make that decision and it has done so far um this is likely to be a changing situation we may be recommending more vaccination i'm glad that we are vaccinating the vulnerable that is really really important

because they have been forgotten well that was going to be my next question why isn't it for all over 12s in fact why for over 12s? In fact, why for over 12s? Well, absolutely. Yeah. The reason for over 12s is that there has already been some research into vaccinating 12s and above. So before ploughing just into vaccinating children, there were studies done looking at whether it was something that was going to be effective and worthwhile doing. And what did they show those trials, if anything? They were generally done in children from the age of 12. And it's shown that vaccination is effective in that group. So the reason we've gone for the vulnerable, the most vulnerable individuals, first of all,

is because to them, the risks of COVID are so much higher. And therefore, they outweigh any risks from vaccinating, as it were, because vaccination carries a risk of side effects and potential adverse effects. They're very low. But when your risks of COVID are very low and the risks of the vaccine are very low, they match each other. And it almost seems that, well, what's the point in vaccinating? They cancel each other out. But if the risks of COVID go up significantly. So, for example, if we get another surge, if we get a new variant that's much more severe or if for some weird reason children become more vulnerable, then the risks of COVID get higher. And therefore we may end up actually vaccinating more people. of COVID are quite low at the moment currently, relatively speaking I'm saying this, and it's not resulting in huge numbers going into hospital, then actually the risks of COVID to those young

people are relatively low for now, but that could change in future. That's why I say it's a dynamic situation. People always say, oh two months ago you weren't recommending this, and I was like, well two months ago we were in a very different situation. so i think you've just raised a really crucial point which is we have to see this as a dynamic and changing situation just because we're saying only over 12s now doesn't mean oh my god it's not safe for under 12s it's never going to be safe for them it just means no one else needs it right now or it doesn't mean we don't care about under 12s exactly it just means the over 12s need it right now you're vulnerable yes so they're the ones who are going to get it but we'll keep assessing the situation and as and when that changes we may well have new guidance absolutely because

joe biden's gone the other way hasn't he the america is going to give all children am i right all children will be vaccinated this autumn yeah Yeah, that's what he said today. So different countries have got different strategies depending on their local needs, depending on their country's health strategy, depending on how they see risk. And actually also depending on what the population want. Remember, there are a different group of people in a different situation. Just because one country is doing it one way doesn't necessarily mean we all do it in exactly the same way um it's it's as you said annie it's a dynamic situation and it's something that we are going to change as we go along depending on what is happening can i take you back to something you you mentioned in passing and i know annie's going to want the answer to this because her son had covid a couple of weeks ago yeah I've never been as a parent especially worried about my

children getting Covid but I'm becoming increasingly worried about long Covid and as a parent it feels scarily unknown because you don't know how Attie got ill with Covid didn't he Annie? but not very ill he was in bed ill which is unlike him yeah it was not very nice and so again dynamic situation you don't know everything

despite the fact we'd like to think you do how does this work with long Covid in kids? because I think a lot of parents are really worried about it yeah yeah so long Covid is an emerging phenomenon that we are watching very very closely and actually very recently a huge amount of money has just been announced to research identification and treatment strategies.

Long Covid is a term we use to describe prolonged symptoms after COVID infection. And there's two phases of it. There's like the the first four weeks is your acute COVID. That's your COVID infection. That's your first four weeks of illness. From four to 12 weeks, we have a long COVID type one, if you want to call it. And that's ongoing symptoms during that time. That's like a prolonged acute phase. And then from 12 week onwards, you have the post viral post COVID phase. And what we do know about this so far is that there are millions of people potentially around the country, including children and young people who are affected. That's not to say that everybody is affected severely. There's a massive spectrum.

There's a massive, there's a huge array of different symptoms that people are attributing to long COVID. May not all necessarily be long COVID. We need to remember that. And also, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not going to get better. Many people, in fact, the majority get better. But what we're trying to do is understand why it happens and how we can treat it. And also, I think quite importantly, how we can prevent it. So we know that children are at lower risk from COVID. Therefore, less of them are going to get long COVID potentially. But if we vaccinate more people and reduce levels of infection, then if the number of people who are being infected goes down, then naturally the number of people who get long COVID will go down by an indirect result.

So this is where I, when we talk about vaccination and the direct benefit to the individual, I always say to people, remember, it's not just about the COVID infection itself and that initial illness. You've also got to bear in mind this possibility that you could have an ongoing illness afterwards. And for some people, that's been quite debilitating and we don't know much about it. The other thing I was going to say actually at this point is, what would you say to someone who says, well, my child already had COVID, so now they've got antibodies, they're not going to need a vaccine if it gets offered to them what's the deal with that good point good point um and the tricky thing about that is that

um antibodies are only one form of immunity we know that so we use antibodies your immune system is hugely complex as you know and it fights off infections in various different ways and antibodies is one of the ways that it does it. Just because you have antibodies, let's say you've had a COVID infection, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be around for a very long time. We don't know how long they're going to be around for and therefore how long they're going to protect you. Doesn't even necessarily mean that those specific antibodies that we've looked at

are the ones that are going to protect you. So there's a lot of uncertainty. And that's why I think as a blanket policy, we're saying just to be on the safe side, belt and braces, let's vaccinate people. It's much easier than testing them, waiting for a result, then deciding whether we should vaccinate them, but then not really knowing whether those antibodies are going to protect them enough or whether they're the right kind um whereas we do know with some relative certainty that when you vaccinate people it does protect them in fact we're seeing it right now we're seeing that people who are vaccinated particularly people who are double vaccinated aren't getting that sick and aren't ending up in hospital and aren't dying from covid unlike we had in previous ways where we didn't have vaccination.

Well, exactly. If we had rates like we have today, last summer, the hospitalisation would have been significantly larger than it is today. We wouldn't have been, exactly. And also, if we had vaccinations last summer, we wouldn't have gone into lockdown. The only reason we went into lockdown was to curb that flow of patients into hospital because it was potentially going to become unmanageable and that's why lockdown happens is to stop people flooding into hospitals and that's why i say to people if you don't want any more lockdowns and lockdowns are harmful for so many reasons um but they are a last resort and

speaking from the front line i get why they're a last resort because it's pretty horrendous when you've got a patient coming in every minute with covid who needs intensive care that's what they were designed to to slow down and the vaccinations are working lockdown did that for a bit until we got enough people vaccinated and i'm praying and touching wood and everything else i've got um that we don't ever have to go into another lockdown i really don't want to i don't think my sanity would take it dr ranch with all the homeschooling i think everybody listening might agree yeah um can we just get talking about the schools thing and really all of us not wanting

to go back to another lockdown situation if we can help it. Can I bring up Joe Biden again, please? Because that's something else interesting he said today when talking about kids and COVID was he expects all school children, if they're not vaccinated, to have to wear masks. Why are kids wearing masks at school doctor so um the evidence around masks is i mean depends what you look at as to whether you that it shows it's effective or how effective it is or whether it's pointless the rationale behind masks and i know the advice on masks changed during the course of the pandemic because the situation changed the rationale behind masks is that they trap droplets. OK, that's what they do. They don't filter virus. They don't filter the air you breathe in and out. They don't necessarily protect you as

much as they protect those around you. But what they're designed to do is act as a barrier for droplets. And we know that the virus, COVID, can be carried in droplets that we breathe out. And therefore, anything we do to trap some of that reduces transmission. And that's the idea behind them. But the thing about masks is it's a group responsibility. It's not just about protecting yourself because they only do that to a limited extent. It's more about protecting those around you. So it's having a bit more of a responsibility to those around you. So I kind of understand the logic behind asking children and young people to wear masks where they may not have immunity to COVID and therefore may be able to get COVID and potentially pass it around without even realising. It's another tool in our armoury. It's not the only tool. It's not

the best tool. But when you're dealing with small numbers, every little counts sometimes. And that's why I think even though masks have their disadvantages, remember, you know, kids and young people need to see faces. You know, it's really, really important for their development, for socialising and all of that kind of stuff, their mental wellbeing included. But but remember we're trying to mitigate the risks of covid as much as we possibly can so i always say use every tool we've got because we need to get out of this well that brings me on because really interestingly where i live i've been out a couple of times since so say freedom day nobody isn't wearing a mask nothing has changed all the shops

everyone's still got masks yeah but you got quite a lot of stick for wearing your mask was it at the euros yes it was yeah so first of all how did you get tickets for the euros and secondly why didn't you take us but you wore your transparent mask which i think is a really good idea if a a bit freaky. But particularly for kids, because if we do want kids to wear them at some point, the clear one surely would be a really great option. And you got properly roasted for it, didn't you? I did. I did. And I got a majority positive reaction and then a small amount of negative reaction. Because everything COVID related and mask related is quite polarizing at the moment so um there's a difference between face masks and uh face coverings and face shields so i was wearing

a transparent face shield the reason i was at the football is because i was taken as a gift um from a magazine that i work with they work with volkswagen who sponsor the games lucky boy and so they asked me would you like to go and i said of course like you'd be an idiot to turn that down and technically because the match was outside you don't have to wear masks because it's outside but there was a lot of people in a specific space and i felt more comfortable wearing a shield and the reason i chose a clear shield is because of late, I've been very conscious of how people communicate and the fact that deaf people and people who are hard of hearing can't hear me. And I realized this myself when we started wearing masks that I couldn't hear anyone

because I lip read a lot. I don't think I'm specifically hard of hearing, but I didn't realize I lip read so much. So for me, it was a really, the mask was a gift from a company. It wasn't an ad. I wasn't paid to do this, as some people were saying. I thought it was a fantastic idea. And I was like, this is great. I love this mask. It's great for people who are hard of hearing or have communication difficulties. It's a face shield. So it is going to block the spread of droplets to some extent i feel more comfortable in this situation wearing this mask you didn't have to technically but i felt more comfortable wearing that shield i wanted to highlight the needs of hard of hearing and deaf people as well um and i want to say thank you to this company because it was a lovely thing for

them to do and off the back of that so many people got in touch saying, I really wish I had these for my school, for my children, for my parents with dementia who struggle to communicate. You know, thank you for highlighting this for the hard of hearing and deaf community. I work with a deaf doctor in my department. We have specific clear masks that have been approved for our trust to use when she is on shift it is a life changer for hard of hearing people yeah and for kids when you're treating kids as well a kid will want to see your face makes a massive difference to me in my line of work where i'm dealing with vulnerable and terrified young children to be able to see my face makes a huge difference it really really does absolutely

i'm i'm so with you on that i'm so with you on that so seeing as we're talking about uh over 12s at the moment and ones who will be eligible if they're vulnerable yes what would you say to a team in that category you said i don't want to i'm scared um because it's not just parents we're talking about that age is it it's the it's the child and the team themselves the interesting thing is that most young people are pretty pro vaccine and are pretty good about it that's good to know i totally understand why people might be scared and why people might be a little bit hesitant that's completely understandable but remember that so many people around you, millions across the world have been vaccinated and have been absolutely fine. Remember

that vaccination isn't just about protecting you. It's also about protecting those around you, your friends, your family. So I've been vaccinated. I wouldn't hesitate being vaccinated again. My family have been vaccinated. My colleagues at work have been vaccinated. It is a huge weight off your shoulder to some extent. Once you've got it done, you still have to exercise precautions. But it is something that we all do together for each other and not just ourselves. And I think young people and children really buy into that. Their social responsibility, they get it. They are are decent people they haven't been jaded by society you know they they go come into this world and they're usually quite pure and they have decent intentions and they want to do the right thing um and i think because of that it fills me with hope that young people actually might do the decent thing in future and be better than we are well yeah my kids are a lot smarter than i am now actually do you know one of the things i wanted to desperately wanted to ask you is what's the most ridiculous anti-vaccine comment you've had in real life oh gosh um

well we've all heard the conspiracies haven't we well yeah a lot of them are just nonsense the whole 5g thing complete and utter nonsense you just got to remind people that if anyone wanted to track you they could do it through your your phone couldn't they quite easily there's a tracking device right there but you're more than happy to use that um uh the fact that you know the vaccines make you magnetic that was nonsense absolute nonsense i haven't heard that one yes ladies and gents i'm standing next to some metal now i've been vaccinated i'm not magnetic i'm afraid did you hear about sarah no no it wasn't sarah gilbert it was katherine the other lady who designed vaccine

um you know they've written a book yes they have it's just come out yeah and it's being serialized on radio 4 for anyone who wants to listen to it. It's brilliant. And in the book, Catherine was saying that last summer in that brief period where it opened up and we could all go on staycation, she went camping with her daughter and she was stood in the queue for the pizza. And she could hear these two women in front of her saying, well, these vaccines, they do this and this and this and she kind of she said she's apparently she's a really non-confrontational and she just kind of tapped them on the shoulder and said um excuse me i can tell you for 100 fact that this is not true because i made it

can you imagine how wonderful it would be to have seen that it's a mic drop moment isn't it but this is the thing there's so much online that is being reported as true there's been reported as fact which absolutely isn't the most recent thing and i think we should probably talk about it is people who've had the vaccine and developed very strange neurological symptoms they're unable to that was on my list to ask you yes so this is the the latest viral thing that's happening yes i've seen it forgive my use of the term viral then i meant it socially you can't say the words viral ping for anything you can't um so this is a really interesting phenomenon and um it's something called functional neurological disorder, which is nothing to do with vaccines at all. These are people who are susceptible to these symptoms regardless of what happens, especially when they're stressed, they're acutely anxious and they're worried.

This and a trigger event happens. It can tip them over into this. And actually, several international neurological bodies have come out and said this, look, this is not a vaccine reaction. This is a separate condition called functional neurological disorder. It is a condition in its own right that warrants its own treatment. It's really complex. But please don't start putting this down to the vaccine. Sure, the vaccine may have been temporarily associated with the onset of your symptoms, but that doesn't mean it caused them at all. And that's the same goes for a lot of people in the forums will be saying, well, what about the adverse event reporting system, the yellow card

scheme? You know, go on there. There's 200,000 things that people have reported. I mean, if you get run over by a bus after you've had your vaccine, you could theoretically report that as a vaccine side effect, as an adverse event. And and people do if you look through it there's somebody who broke their clavicle there's somebody who got fell down the stairs there's all sorts of stuff that you can put on the yellow card scheme because it doesn't it doesn't differentiate causality all it says is if you had any adverse event after any vaccine, you can submit it. So if your hair turned orange because you dyed it and you happened to have your vaccine the day before, you can report it. That doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. And that's what people

don't realise. It's an association. It's not a causation. Then when there's a pattern, which is what happened when we started seeing, for example example certain people developing a rare type of blood clot then it gets investigated but everything else the vast majority of stuff that is on that yellow card scheme is nothing to do with the vaccines those people that develop these weird and wonderful neurological symptoms of functional neurological disorder having happened to have been vaccinated remember millions of people have been vaccinated someone's going to develop something that may not be related to the vaccine whatsoever and i think that's what we've got to bear in mind everything we know worldwide says that for the vast majority of people these vaccines are safe compared to the risks of covid okay i'm actually going to jump to the last question now

because you have addressed so much, including that one that I was researching. Yeah, yeah. Which seems to be the really hot topic at the moment. Absolutely. But okay, this is the last question, right? You've got 60 seconds. Tell us why vaccinating kids wants the vaccines are licensed

and if we decide it's necessary as a nation yeah is a good idea go dr range vaccination if you look throughout history is one of the best medical interventions we have had just look through history at the incidence of serious infections like meningitis and the fact that they went down after vaccinations were introduced it is one of the best tools we have currently in the fight against COVID. It is not the only tool. And we've got to remember that any potential medical intervention has side effects. But when you look at the bigger picture, look at the risks from COVID and COVID related issues and weigh that up against the risk of vaccination, I think most people will

agree that taking up the offer of vaccination, and it is voluntary, is a good idea, not just for yourself, but for everybody around you. This is about protecting everyone. And no one is safe until everyone is safe. God, you're good. I love that, Dr. Rand. You're amazing. And that's why we love having you on our show.

Thank you so much. Stick him on the spot and off he goes. Thank you so much for answering all those questions and off he goes thank you so much for answering all those questions today i think you'll have calmed a lot of people down and and kind of really cut through a lot of that can i say the word crap on my own podcast i think i can oh thank you right go and save some lives please thank you very much have a great day dr ranch thanks bye