The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep44: Liv Thorne on choosing single-parenthood via a sperm donor

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

Listen as author Liv Thorne talks middle aged cliches, toddlers and turkey basters and single parenting in a pandemic.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Good afternoon, Sweat, Snot and Teary people. I've got big news. I've only gone and got myself a bloody allotment, haven't I?

I know, I know, I know, I know. I know it's exciting. Wendy, your turn turn tell me something more middle-aged cliche than that please i went wild swimming in a quarry with a bunch of women who were in their 60s and they all had those frilly um hats on oh tell you it was amazing no no i didn't and did you have when all the women around here who do of a certain age who do that wild swimming thing they all swim along very politely with these giant orange things behind them on a string yes that's the rules you have to have a toe float because

what is that it's so that you don't die basically oh. Oh, so if you went down, it would mark the spot where you went down. You're such a... I just want to know in case I see one bobbing along by itself one day and I have to dive in and do my bronze medallion stuff. No, no, no. The rules are bright hat, bright toe float, so that when you're... It's basically to illustrate how slow you are

when you're being overtaken by a triathlete which happened a lot but and i will save the next story for when our lovely guest has shared her middle-aged cliche okay well let's see if she's got a lovely middle-aged cliche to share with us today please welcome everyone live thorn influencer extraordinaire and author of new book lives alone all about the experience of deciding to do the parenting thing solo via a sperm donor from denmark as you do so do you have an allotment do you go wild swimming do you swim with an orange thing in a frilly hat i do none of those things i don't have an allotment i have just taken a bottle of aperol out of the fridge to take to my 18 year old nephew's birthday party okay because he's decided that's his drink of choice okay you're

in our gang you're in our really middle-aged cliche love it love it love it so tell us about your lockdown live i mean it was shit for all of us but you did it on your own I know and I think you deserve some kind of medal or reward for that or some Aperol yeah any of the things I'll take carbs alcohol whatever um it I'm not gonna sugarcoat it it was an absolute shocker looking back now I just remember how scared I was that first backtrack and tell our listeners how old herb is yes how old herb is now um oh my god uh just over three so he was just oddly he was just one when it was happening nearly two god so not just a child but a toddler a toddler and at that stage where he didn't really communicate

so tell me he's still napped tell me he's still napped oh my god yeah he's still not okay good because if he didn't now i don't i actually don't know what i would do he stopped that for second lockdown as a real treat for me but the first lockdown he still napped and i was still working full-time so those naps were my savior because that's the time I could say, yeah, yeah, I can have a meeting then or, you know. Or lie down or scream really loudly by yourself. Or cry, just cry, just a lot of crying. You're really selling this to us, this whole single parenting? Well, no, single parenting in a pandemic is totally different.

Yeah. It's not what you signed up for, Liv, is it really? It's not what I signed up for, no. Yeah, it was just so scary. I was just terrified that first couple of weeks. But didn't you move in with someone for the last lockdown? Didn't you kind of like throw caution to the wind and say, well, I'm done, I'm going to my mate's house?

No, it wasn't because of that. It's because stupidly in February 2020, I put my house on the market oh and sold it so I was moving house at the same time in lockdown one do you ever think things through Liv I know mate I give you a glutton for punishment right here seriously seriously and then the house like so I couldn't find anywhere so I moved into a rented house that then got sold whilst I was in it. Oh, my goodness. And the housing market just went bonkers, so I hadn't found anywhere to live. So I phoned my sister in Devon and just said, can we come and live with you?

I know why you've got a massive following on social now. It's just because everyone wants to know if you're going to be all right. If I don't know, will she be OK? Is she still alive okay is she still alive she's still alive did she survive um so tell us come on something good must have come out of it for you go on give us something that you learned or achieved or anything i wrote a book because again i just thought i'd shove that in there as well it's a really i'll give you that i'll give you that uh yeah i wrote a book had a bit bit of a breakdown because of all the things we've just spoken about.

And Herb started talking properly, you know, so he became really fun. So thankfully, it was kind of all, it got better rather than worse. And also, I've got to say that my sister and her family after about the first month of lockdown one said look we've discussed it and actually because um people who co-parent can the child can go between like mother and father or whatever we've decided we can do that with you if you want us to have herb for a couple of nights a week every couple of weeks yes please thank heavens for sisters and that totally saved my life and herbs I think let's go back to the beginning and tell us the how little

herb came to be story so um I've been a professional singleton for my entire adult life I've just never had a long-term relationship since I've been an adult well or as a child just like well that would be worrying just like uh realize how bad just a caveat that just a caveat that um and but I've always wanted to be a mum I've always had that I know that a lot of women kind of don't or they think it will come when they're a bit older or I know uh I heard your podcast with Ellie Taylor yes and she was saying that she never had that but she just assumed when once she hit 30 she'd suddenly want a kid whereas I was the opposite I've always wanted one but couldn't

there was no there was no way of getting one because you have to have a man and I didn't and dating shit anyway and dating with that pressure of oh yeah hi I'll swipe right and by the way please could you impregnate me yeah yeah can I meet your mum next week because time's running out and shit go go go you know there is nothing less sexy than a woman who is there wanting a double gin and pregnancy within the next 20 minutes do you know what I mean it's like it's just not okay a little bit of pressure that pressure as well as dating it was so I just didn't do it it was like it's not conducive to it being chill is it no and so having done lots of jokes about turkey basting sort of in my late 20s like how wouldn't that be funny if god i never found a man and i'd have to do it on my own and then you're like oh shit i'm 35 and

there is still no man and my ovaries might implode at some stage and was it really an age thing was it was it your age that made you think i've got to crack on with this now i thought you're going to say was it really a turkey based no i promise well only because i would have done it i would have tried that because it would have been much cheaper but as you now know i would that would have gone up the wall it would have no stop stop stop stop stop stop go back to the nice ivs story please so you hit 35 we're 35 we're with you and it wasn't so much that I thought my body was deteriorating as you just know that if you're going to have children I wanted to spend time with them I didn't want to be 50 and so therefore you'd have less and less time and and you know that you know you're constantly shouted at by media saying your ovaries will implode you will you know you must have a child now or you

will never have one um and I knew that I was just putting off the inevitable and I was only doing it because I was terrified and then anyway I just kept bursting into tears every time friends told me they were pregnant or or worse doing that kind of oh I'm really thrilled to see and then running off to burst into tears you know and that's when I was like okay you've got to just suck it up and do something about it so I did but how do you start what yeah what's day one what's job one on the list of I think I'm going to do this google the word sperm donor and yeah. That's exactly what I did because I had no, well, like, where do you start? And actually that just provided more and more questions because there are so many caveats to everything. Or just it's not like, buy sperm, put it in it in you you're pregnant there are like a shit

ton of variables though scarily i will tell you there's a guy who keeps advertising his services on the netmums forum for anyone who does but i get why i keep having to ban him but i get why people because being able to do it is seriously expensive like how much are we talking fertility or it could be anything because it depends how many tries you have to have it depends well it's got to work hasn't it yeah it depends if you have ivf or iui which is what i had which is a much simpler version so iui just for the uninitiated iui is you literally they put sperm in your cerv. So you're not having to harvest any eggs and all that? I didn't harvest eggs. I didn't take any hormones.

It's technical turkey basting, basically. Technical turkey basting, yep. Always count on me to lower the tone. Oh, absolute. Don't you worry, I'm here for that. Because I was convinced that I didn't have a fertility issue, so much as I didn't have a naked man near me at the correct time of the month willing to impregnate me I thought there was no reason for me to think that I was infertile or

so I didn't want to go straight to IVF necessarily but anyway so that costs everything costs storage costs shipping costs blood test costs admin costs ultrasounds everything literally everything so I got pregnant on my fourth IUI which is in itself a miracle and it cost me about 15,000 pounds in total so it's a serious financial commitment a massive and that's before you have a baby so that's why going back to the donor on facebook i totally understand why women would turn to him because it's a much cheaper option and what i did is wildly privileged like i wanted a baby and i could find the funds to do it and it happened in denmark is this right uh the donor is from denmark so but it all happened online so yes it did happen in denmark

but it got sent over yeah so do they post the sperm to you does it arrive by dhl oh my goody ups actually i bet the ups guy didn't know he was delivering that morning I kid you not you add it to a basket how quickly do you have to do the do well then they send it to the fertility clinic oh right it doesn't come to your house and you're like you've got 10 minutes that's what I thought would happen and then I'd

get it wrong or and they say oh do you want it in this do you want to send it via I can't even remember what the options were but nitrogen or something else. I don't know. Surely there's a preferred option. Which one works? This is really expensive stuff. But wait, wait, I want to go back a step actually.

How did you choose Mr. Denmark Man? Do you get like a catalogue and you're like, oh, he's nice. Again, it's so different depending on where you go what clinic you use what country you use um I chose Denmark because I'd seen a documentary about Danish donors I think you'd seen a documentary about Danish men no well either or and because that's all like suddenly I knew about Danish donors I didn't know about New York donors or Spanish donors. So I looked for Danish clinics and that's why I chose that clinic. And then you whittle down what you want.

Out of what? Like physical characteristics or academic achievement? But all of them. height weight eye color uh blood type ethnicity uh what their grandparents died of what all of it i mean just the most vast but that's only on some clinics like sometimes you don't get that okay you don't get a photo so what okay give me your top three that you wanted. Well, at the beginning, I thought I was looking, I thought I was taking it like it was a date. Like, oh, he sounds like a nice guy. Cool, you know.

And actually I realised. I'm actually never going to speak to this person. Literally didn't matter. So I needed to go, my family is riddled with cancer. So I needed to go with someone who looked like they potentially weren't, even though obviously. Which is a relatively tough call in itself yeah I know it's a it's a lottery but that's I decided as long as there weren't any wild health genetic issues right and also I went tall and skinny to counteract my short and fat oh stop so I figured okay because otherwise where do you stop

like I don't care if he's got green eyes and I don't care some people might I guess I'd get really hung up on things like oh my god but you get really hung up on it well she gets really hung up on everything so you just have to dismiss that this is the woman who nearly didn't get married because she got so hung up on what her wedding song was going to be okay yeah fair yeah you would you wouldn't cope with trying to choose a donor because it's wild no she definitely would not long yeah one of the things i'd want to know is how many others has he impregnated again that so there are very specific rules because it's all with done within regulations of nor other hvfa the human fertilization embryo fertilization something yeah yeah gang team and so it's all very monitored okay so you so donors can only have a certain quota of live pregnancies per territory. Oh my God.

Before they're taken off the register. That's the sentence I never thought I'd ever hear said out loud. That's the sentence I never thought I'd need to hear or warrant, you know, knowledge about. So did you pick one dude's sperm? Or could you just say, oh, I'll have anyone who ticks these boxes? Send me different sperm every week if you want. Well you if you're a true billionaire sure but no I had to pick I picked one because I finally found one that kind of ticked some random boxes I decided upon

um because there is no right answer it's not like you get to the end of the test no exactly so I picked a guy and just hoped but you don't get to see a photo or anything I got a photo of him at six months which is vaguely pointless oh wow a baby photo and what about the whole you know where the herb gets to contact him and stuff how does that all work again that depends on territory and legalities uh now i was really um adamant that i wanted an open donor which means that herb can um contact him when he's 18 if he wants to because that's not my right to sort of stop that um i wouldn't want him to want it and me to have shut that door for him right without you know i'd rather he had the option and then he can choose whatever so that again whittles down but that depends again the legalities

of whether you can have open donors or not depends on country territory it's wild which again goes back to why people just buy spam on facebook it's all very complex isn't it it's really complicated and and these are the things you're constantly finding out whilst not knowing anything in a state of desperation and trying to get to the end goal of being pregnant, but you don't know how to get there. And there's constantly another hurdle or more often than not, another financial, like, oh yeah, you can have that guy,

but you know, he's extra. Did you have a bottom to the money pot? Was it like, okay, after go seven, we're going to have to... I told my, Yeah, yeah. I gave myself a limit because I know people that have tried for 15, 20 years and have spent literally tens of thousands of pounds, hundreds of thousands of pounds.

And I know that I'm that person. And I would have got myself in real trouble if I hadn't have given myself parameters. And actually, yeah, I was very near that. Which is scary. I would have got myself in real trouble if I hadn't have given myself parameters and actually yeah I was very near that which is scary so you got pregnant was there any point between that bit and meeting the lovely Mr Herb um when you thought what have I done was there any point in the pregnancy or the birth where you were like why have I done this on my own nearly all of it like I'm not kidding so I just assumed I'd absolutely bloody love pregnancy because I'd yearned for it for so long we all thought that

one live rubbish sorry to anyone who thought it was lovely I know I mean I I'm thrilled that people find it lovely I'm glad there are some people that genuinely did bloom and loved it. I was sick for the full 42 weeks. Me too. Me, too. All three of us. Yeah. And I just kept thinking, why does no one warn you about this?

Why don't I feel well? Why don't I feel excited? Why don't... Because all I ever thought mainly was was where's the nearest toilet? Because in a minute, I'm going to throw up on someone if I don't know where the loo is. And then I was waiting for the 12 week scan because everyone was like, oh, once you have that,

you won't feel sick anymore. So I was kind of waiting for a nurse to press something or whatever to make it all stop. And so I'd find myself often just lying on the bathroom floor in the middle of the night, just weeping like, what the fuck have I done why why did I think that I'd be able to do this on my own how arrogant am I to assume this would work you know what an idiot how if I can't cope this sickness how am I going to be able to cope with the baby etc etc etc and then you have baby herb yeah and at that point did you think okay it's all fine now or is it always a bit of a niggle in your head thinking why did I ever think

I could do this yeah I'm again I assumed as soon as he was in my arms I would have that thunderbolt of maternal instinct because I again I'd longed for it for so long I'd assumed as soon as I saw him I would just feel elation and but actually I was totally broken I'd gone through pretty rotten birth and I was just like I mean, I'm glad he's here and he's okay. But you know, I don't feel that urge. I thought I'd feel and that didn't come for maybe three or four weeks. But those first few weeks are absolute carnage, irrespective, you could have three husbands in the room and they'd still be carnage. I was totally blindsided by that. actually i was really lucky no one can explain yeah i would say that's got nothing to do with single parenthood that's just being a mum no i was really lucky

because my sisters who are both a bit older than me and they've got like six kids between them they were my birthing partners and they came and lived with me on and off for the first three weeks month oh that's really cute and they so they knew what they were doing so it's not like I was fumbling around with my partner who also didn't know what he was doing I had two professional mums who were like oh god I remember this bit yeah shit or oh you need to have loads of linseeds so that the poo doesn't kill you. And, you know, all of this sort of stuff. So I think actually the first three weeks I had it really good,

even though inside I was constantly like, what the fuck have I done? The shift in having been alone, I'd lived alone since I was 17, to suddenly just everything changes it just and it does whether you're single or not like you say it's yeah it's mind-blowingly altering irrespective that that shift is just unreal yeah and I don't think that had anything to do with me doing on my own so when when they left you kind of to your own devices at three weeks or so yeah were you in your groove then were you a bit more like okay I know how to keep this human alive no no no I uh I convinced myself that I I kind of did and

I assumed that because they deemed me fit okay OK to leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know that they wouldn't have done if they thought I was really struggling, that I must be OK. But I still didn't anticipate all the side swipes you get every time you think you've got it. Side swipes? Don't talk to me about side swipes. I might call my book Side Swipes. It's a really good way of doing it. Because it's like being on total wipeout. I've put in my book, actually, it's like being on total wipe out i've put in my book actually it's like being on total wipe out like you're kind of okay and you're sort of treading water and then suddenly a fucking great big red inflatable thing inflatable thing just yeah but and i still have those nearly 10 years in yeah we both do and they happen constantly yeah and i just didn't anticipate and they can happen in the middle of the night and it can be on Christmas Day.

It can be on your birthday. Yeah. And I really didn't. I thought the first month would be me staring lovingly at my beautiful, calm baby, watching box sets. In some nice cashmere baby growth. In some cashmere. Yeah. And everything would just be really lovely.

Oh, yeah. When actually you're covered in shit that looks like mustard. Yeah. baby growth and some cashmere yeah and everything would just be really lovely oh yeah actually you're covered in shit that looks like mustard yeah and you open the door with a boob hanging out yeah yeah i did that i scared the postman witless so did i a cardo delivery man boob out and just in my pants lovely well we had scaffolders in when my second child was youngest we had someone coming in and fixing the roof so basically they were all on the scaffolding at bedroom window height so what those poor bastards saw i wouldn't know they're still having therapy they're still up there they couldn't get down so yeah it was i just i mean i don't know if it's because i wanted to be a mum so much that i uh blocked off any... Sense of reality?

...of these conversations that my friends were probably having. Or whether people just didn't talk about it as much. I don't know. But I thought it would all be, yeah, a bit tough because you don't have much sleep. I mean, I just didn't. Understatement of the century. Well, Kate Lawless quite publicly just said that she... Yeah, and I really admire her for that. Yeah, she's got a night nanny, didn't statement of the century well Kate Lawless quite publicly just said this yeah I really admire her for that yeah she's got a night nanny didn't she because she was like I

don't care I can't do this I need some help fair play to her if you can afford it do it absolutely yeah yeah yeah absolutely and god I would have happily not done anything but I'd get my so I'd rope in people to once I eventually got into some sort of vague routine, once I realised that that might help me out. Because I thought I was really chill and like, oh, yeah, I'll just do whatever the baby wants until I was like, no, we need some kind of routine because otherwise. You really get to know yourself, don't you? Really? Yeah. Wendy and I discovered that we were control freaks and who would have known me too but I genuinely thought I wasn't I genuinely thought I was really like super chill

so who do you lean on for support your sisters obviously my sisters who as you mentioned they're a bit older and they're kind of wise parent been through this yes but who else uh so I've got an a team of friends who um I just had to make sure that they knew that I might call them at three o'clock in the morning and please could they answer because my my family don't live near me whereas my friends do so I needed to know that if I was in real trouble that they'd be able to get to me or, you know, it would be OK. Did it make you feel a bit more vulnerable in that way, actually? Thinking, God, what if I need someone in the night? Yeah. And there is just some things that are tougher, that kind of thing, where just logistically, if something happens in the night or if you need a babysitter quickly or just everything is is

slightly more complicated because there isn't just someone else you can quickly phone because it's their responsibility too it's all on me and if I'm asking anyone else to look after him or it's a favor it's not something that they should do because they're his other parent or whatever it's because they love me and they're being helpful elves I don't know how any of us would do it without friends to be honest no absolutely not you've been very candid about the fact that you lost your parents when you were young yeah your siblings are a bit older than you yes and that that kind of in a way has left you quite fearful of intimacy and maybe the vulnerability that that requires totally again i didn't realize that until oh god i don't know not even long ago probably when

herb was born that kind of time so how do you negotiate that as a parent because obviously we all want to be available emotionally as we can for our children have you had to have help with that or do you think it's just an awareness that makes you think oh I didn't know I was like that but okay I get it now and off I go yeah I mean I think I do need help but uh but I don't have it with her because I don't know why it's weird I don't know why whereas I never I always assumed that people would abandon me which is why I never got into relationships because I assumed that Dolly don't know why whereas I never I always assumed that people would abandon me which is why I never got into relationships because I assumed that. Dolly don't think that. But but I didn't realize that that's what I assumed until really recently um because dad died when I was 12 mum

died when I was 17 then I had a really my first sort of relationship then that broke up then my all my grandparents died then Then someone dumped me. And so by the time I was 21, it was like, Jesus, this heartache thing is shitty. I'm not going to do that again. I'm just going to back up because then I don't have to go through this pain again. But I absolutely didn't realize that that's what I was doing until really recently. But that's the question then. Has it changed you do you think you would be different in a relationship now with all your free time to go dating obviously with all my free time all your free time um I'd love to be in love

look I'd love it I'd absolutely love my kitchen table to be full every night of a big family because that's where I've come from and that's what a lot of my friends have and um yeah I'd love it but if it doesn't happen I think I'm more likely to try and go on a date now because there's less pressure why is there less pressure why is there less pressure now well because she's not got the whole ovaries thing going on I don't want to get pregnant so I'm looking at it from another angle whereas before it was I was putting up any barrier I could and the best barrier was this is horrible because I want to get pregnant soon so let's not have there been any gentleman callers since you've had it has been a pandemic give her a break true

true the Ocado man comes occasionally the amazon man's quite chatty but you know i don't think he'd like it to be honest poor man you never know i haven't but again i've not been looking i'm so used to not looking that i wouldn't know if he was you know if the Ocado man did give me the wink, I'd just be like, oh, hi, you're nice. You said quite categorically a second ago, I don't want a baby. Is that, has Herb scratched that itch and you're done? No, I mean, I would have a baby tomorrow.

I was going to say, we're going to have more little Herbs. I'd love to, I can't afford it. So the fertility treatment is wild in expense. And two on your own would be a big, it's a big commitment having a herb. And then childcare costs. Well, that's the killer. That is the killer.

I moved house because I got in so much debt from, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's not all because of herb. I'm shit with money. But essentially, childcare costs, on top of just having a kid costs, and fertility costs got me in so much debt that I had to sell my house to clear it. And so I couldn't do it again. If there are any politicians listening and you would like to win the next election,

just sort out childcare, make it affordable, will you? Because every single parent in the country will vote for you. Yeah. It's ridiculous. And there's a lot of parents. There's a hell of a lot of parents. If you were going to do it again, let's say you win the lottery tomorrow. Yes.

Would you go to the same man for the sperm? Yeah, but that, even though I've not won the lottery and the chances of this happening are slim, that brings me out in anxiety. Why case he isn't there oh god could we check I would be doing that little intermittent checks just in case no just the thought of it because then if I look then that's me wanting to be pregnant again and I literally can't afford it so I couldn't look but even the thought of him not being available and me having to go through that whole choosing process again actually like

makes me want to drink gin through a straw just there's many things that make me want to drink we quite like drinking through a straw so the title influencer is one that causes all sorts of feelings and all sorts of people but if it all went away tomorrow what would you be instead well I mean I'm not an influencer like I'm literally not I just have some people that follow me online quite a few quite a few and I did I've been very open with it because I really think normalizing different families is really important absolutely and I wanted to make sure that if there are other women or men or whatever know that it doesn't always have to be a 2.5 2.4 even child scenario with a husband and wife and everything's fine um so if that went it wouldn't

impact my life at all I've got a full-time job it's not a integral part of my life at all although I love it like it kept me sane um Instagram kept me sane during many the last few years I find that really interesting because it tends to really divide people doesn't it it either is the thing that connects people to others like you just said it kept you saying which I find that part of it I would struggle but the people I love that I've met on Instagram I have their number I don't yeah but then we've had other guests we've had guests who've been reduced to panic attacks we've had guests who've had to come off social media for a while like it can be it can either go one way or the other can't it oh absolutely and i think that's i don't have that big i i have a big following i guess to a point but i don't it's not like hundreds of thousands where you attract

so many people who are just unpleasant um have you had unpleasant stuff or but or people just been very supportive yeah i'm just going to touch wood not one i've not had one that's amazing person be a twat to me which is why i think i enjoy it i think if i if people were on car once i did something about uh bottle feeding and people oh that always brings them out of the woodwork exactly and actually it was like well that's cool that's what you like I know that herb is healthy and fire you know but if people attacked him or then I'd just come off but because I've never had it I don't but yeah I would happily leave if it got to the point where I was becoming unwell happily so tell us what's next in your life what is your full-time job what do you do when you're not instagramming um I run a um digital

agency so we design and build websites I don't do the design or the build just do the talking about it yeah exactly it's always the best way um tell us your plans like are you gonna keep working do you wanna get a better work-life balance than you've got now I've got I'm so lucky because I run the company with with three friends there are four of us um my work-life balance is brilliant because they're all really supportive we're all supportive each other so if we have to and they're three men it's not that it's three women you understand they're three men who just totally like oh yeah you've got to go and do that cool don't worry because they know it's our company it's in my best interest to make sure our clients are well served and

I'll get the job done in the evening if I've got to go and pick up her earlier or whatever I don't think I could be a single mum and have any kind of mental clarity if someone else was my boss and I was getting that kind of oh it's one minute past nine I think it makes mum's lives hell hell and I mean most mums actually have to live like that don't they yeah absolutely so I'm seriously lucky I don't think I'd be able to do it like I say and still have any kind of form of mental health happiness if there were people constantly clock watching my time so one of the questions we always ask everybody is how do you want to be remembered by herb oh my god uh that is hideous most people are quiet about this i know i just everyone's like

how would i'd want him to remember me as being fun and loving and showing him a good time and that he can achieve whatever he wants to achieve because you've got to make it happen for yourself um so yeah i'd want him oh my god that's the most horrific question I don't know uh I'd love to say something really profound but no I'd want him to think of me as the mum who adored him and he had fun with I think are you fun mum oh I've got to be both so I am you're all the mums I'm I'm good cop bad cop in between cop cross cop happy cops yeah I'm literally the full squad so he knows when he's in trouble but equally but he's just got to that stage he's really annoyingly cute he when I tell him off now

I was like have you just got to stop being cross with me and he just said oh but mommy i'm sorry i love you very much oh you know yeah so uh he's just got to that clever manipulation stage which is unfortunate just you for me i know i'm terrified genuinely terrified is when they've just got the right balance of cute and i can push every button yeah button, button. I'm absolutely terrified. My youngest is at the stage where she tells me, if I disagree with her, that I'm the worst memory in the world and then goes away and then writes me this huge heartfelt letter about why she's really sorry that she's so sad

with all of the words misspelled. I know Herb will do the thing where he says, you shouldn't have ever had me. Like I'm waiting for that because that's just like classic 101 kid whereas he's literally got there you shouldn't have ever put that spam in the basket you know but that'll happen oh yeah it'll happen to all of us at some point um okay we like to go from the sublime to the ridiculous so the next question we always ask

towards the end of a pod is look she's wincing she's wincing i promise you i promise you this is the easy one before the really hard one um what's for tea we normally also ask and who's cooking but i think it's quite obvious that it's gonna be you it's gonna be me herb herb is cooking tonight or is it a deliveroo no they don't come out here no delivery doesn't go to planche oh no gutted um so today is my uh eight my my 18th nephew that's not correct is it my nephew's 18th birthday party so tea is gonna be booze and herb might have some crisps actually can we talk about booze and being a single parent yeah how do you that's a good point how do you get drunk and how do you be hung over because normally it's just like oh my god i'm so hung over you need to go it's your turn yeah so i gave up booze when i was trying to get pregnant because it's one of the things that apparently i mean

who knows but apparently it will help you and And I wanted to do everything I could. And now I'm a real, I'm a horrific binge drinker. So I don't have any booze at home because I have no filter. I have no moderation filter, which is why I eat all the carbs in the world because I can't stop. I can't stop eating. But I had to, so I could stop drinking because otherwise I world because I can't stop. I can't stop eating. But I had to. So I could stop drinking because otherwise I would be watching Home and Away. So wait, when you go to the 18th, what are you going to drink?

So tonight I will drink because other people are there. But the hangover I'm already nervous about. So I've already prepped the fridge. Is Herb coming to this party? Yeah. I mean, it's just family it's not going to be like wild uh well but i know so so yeah generally i don't drink anymore because i can't cope with the hangovers and the toddler i just can't and i yeah i value sleep and patience

over the booze i was, I was really liking you. Yeah, I've gone off you. And now we're just going to have to break friends and we've only been friends 45 minutes. Right, well, I'm quite looking forward to asking you this last question then. Oh, shit. It's your turn, Wend, to ask the rubbish question.

I'm actually nervous, yeah. The sadist that is Anne-Marie O'Leary invented this question. Yep. Guilty. You have to imagine that Annie and I are herb and you are tucking us into bed and you have to sing us your lullaby.

Because we know every parent has a song that they always resort to when the kid can't sleep and we want to know what it is and we want you to sing it to us. And you can't be in the company of some of the biggest names on this pod who our singers have refused. Okay, so the problem I've got is there are kind of four.

Oh. Well, we could have a little snapshot of all of them and medley. Okay, so the first one that not so much anymore, but when he was little was Baby Shark. I'm not going to do that because then it will be in your ears and you'll want to stab me. It will be a tinea worm, isn't it? Yeah. The second one was he's super he's delicious he's her delicious nobody knows okay uh and then generally they change

every week so he makes up a song up most days so last night well the last couple of weeks my niece who's 24 not six made up one with him in the garden which was uh sticky sticky mud mud sticky sticky mud so another corker but every morning he serenades me from his bed because he's the laziest kid in the world he still hasn't worked out that he can get out of his own bed and And neither of mine did either. Literally just lies there going, mummy, and then we'll sing Hallelujah. Yeah, to me,

because it's in Sing, which is his favourite movie of all time. And so I'm not going to sing that to you because I am not Jeff Buckley. So I'll give you a Hallelujah. That's it. I was going to sing the rest, but I won't. I think that's epic. I want to meet Herb.

He sounds really cool. He's pretty cool. He is a dude. He's a really lucky. From what I've seen on Instagram, he's a dude. I mean, he's a shitbag as well. He's a toddler. Like, he's not always, but he, I'm really lucky.

He's a really nice kid. Okay. Well, Miss Liv, thank you so much for being a lovely lovely lovely and very informative guest thank you and thank you i think you're doing wondrous work making every family no matter what they look like feel like they are a real family and if anyone wants to buy my book which i think i'm supposed to say i thought you were going to say if anyone wants to buy some sperm you get a free sample with the book you don't you don't i'll probably get in trouble uh it's out on august the 19th thanks very much if you could make the pain of writing it worth it that would be great i'm sure it will be a bestseller live right go and get ready for

your apparel party oh, I'm so excited. Thank you. And we wish you luck with the hangover in the morning. Thanks, team. Cheerio.