The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep46: Ruby Wax on why mindfulness is a must for mums and dads

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Listen in on Wendy and Annie's catch up with comedy icon turned psychotherapist, Ruby Wax as she describes why our mindfulness muscles need flexing every day and why her daughters have banned her from their comedy shows! Ruby reminds us why investing in our mental health is so important for us all.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollage. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Welcome to the latest episode of Sweat, Snot and Tears. We usually spend a lot of time prattling on, basically, at the beginning of an episode. But I am going to propose, Wendell, that we don't do that today

because A, the guest is too good, and B, her mission in life is to get us to cut up a bit of the crap, especially the stuff that makes us frazzled. There's a little clue there, all of you. Wendell, do you give me permission to cut through the crap? I give you full permission, yes. Okay, so today's guest is A, a comedy icon, but B, someone who in the most recent phase of her life has taken things in a slightly different direction and become

both an expert in and an advocate for mental health, in particular mindfulness, and we need to both celebrate and learn from her. Please, guys,y wex welcome ruby hi hello how are you doing it's funny to have this and um and there's no applause yeah that's better thanks so sincere so sincere so rub, the guests usually answer for us a question that is the same every week. We are going to ask if there's any sweat, snot or tears in your house this morning. But you look like you're in a hotel room. Are you in a hotel? I'm in kind of a hotel. Yeah. Oh, so maybe not. No snot in the hotel room. No. Good. What about sweat or tears?

No sweat, no tears. My kids, you mean? Well, your kids are all big and grown up, so I guess there's less of that. Oh, yeah. One of them is giving me grief. Go on then. No, no. She's, it's okay.

She's, I'm in Scotland and I'm not picking her up. So that's going to be bad. Oh, does she know yet? I think she'll know when the plane lands and nobody's there. I think that might be a clue. I love it. It just goes to show being a mum doesn't stop, does it? There is no end date, is there?

There is no end date. And it still makes you sick to your stomach whenever they try to do something. You know, like as if you feel it more than they do. Way more. My daughters do comedy. They're a double act called Siblings and I'm not even allowed to go to the shows anymore. Why? Because I make faces of horror. Because I know I want to help them. I mean, they're really funny. But I know sometimes better lines,

but I'm an idiot, so they won't let me give notes. And now they won't even let me go into the shows. Oh, that's bad. You're banned from going. Bad. And they caught me last time because I have curly hair. So they said they saw a tuft behind some chairs, and they said the tuft is in the house. You snuck in. I snuck in, and they saw the tuft behind some chairs and they said the tuft is in the house you snuck in i snuck in

and they saw the tuft only your daughters would recognize you as a tuft and get away with calling you a tuft that's it that's my identity right i want to take you back please to the moment you decided to go to oxford to study mindfulness-based cbt what makes you take that kind of plunge, lady? Yeah, that's extreme, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, most of us just like read a book or listen to a podcast, but you actually go and do, not just a degree, a degree at Oxford. Yeah, not any old uni. She has to go to Oxford. It has to be the best.

Well, if you're going to do it. Well, yeah. Well, I didn't think I'd get in because I was sort of an idiot in school and I got Ds. I really did. And my parents were so disappointed at my SATs, you know, which is how we get into university, because I got 475, not plants don't get 475. So there was very little chance of going to Oxford. But I got really interested in how the brain works

about 15 years ago I mean where did that come from and I'd been kicked out of TV so I had to reinvent myself quickly well I always was interested in psychology so I went to I got my degree in psychotherapy but I was never going to be a psychotherapist because when people were talking, I'd go, oh, just cut to the punchline. So it wasn't very good. Then I was so interested in the brain that I started investigating what was really, I have depression. But these two things aren't just for depression, but they are a way of reading, let's say, the weather condition in your mind. And if you have depression, it's better to know it's coming. Otherwise, it takes you overnight like a demon. So I looked in all the scientific research and mindfulness and CBT,

cognitive behavior therapy, had the best results. So I went to find one of the founders of it. I didn't know what he did. And he was a professor at Oxford. Is he the guy who wrote The Frantic World, Finding Peace in the Frantic World? Is it him? Yeah. Aha. Yeah. That's Mark Williams. Yeah. He's kind of a hero. And he said to me, I said, what goes on in the brain? Because I don't want any angel cards. You know, I wrote for Ab Fab. I'm not going to go for the fluffy

stuff. And he said, well, if you going to go for the fluffy stuff and he said well if you want to know that kind of stuff you'd have to get into Oxford and so he threw me that challenge and then at my interview I said it doesn't matter if you take me because I'm going to study this anyway so I got in. So for those of us who have been under a rock for the last few years or for our listeners who don't really understand it what is mindfulness give us the ruby wax potted answer well my interest is the science that's what interests me and the results you see in a brain scanner because as i said you know if you're going to do a sit-up you better show a six-pack so when you do mindfulness exercises just like

a six-pack different areas in your brain responsible for lowering stress and being able to focus attention when everything is distracting you. Those areas get more buff. You know, they get more resilient. But the exercises have to be done every day. They're not tough. And you could do it for a minute a day. But you don't get it unless you do these exercises. Can I ask a really basic question?

Are some people born, you know, some people are good at sports. Are some people born with brains more ready to go with the mindfulness stuff? Or were they taught at a young age without, did they absorb it through life when they were younger from their parents or something? Like, how are some people okay and some people not well that's genes in nature but you know some people are really resilient they go with the you know they go with the flow they can keep their equilibrium even though the world turns over uh there are there are people like that i've never met one but i have actually you know when they're you know that they have a lot of serotonin in their brain and they have a good life.

But we're living in a time now, I think I said this in my book, where we have less of a chance of finding that balance. Because social media is always making you feel like you're not good enough because you're competing with the rest of the world. And the news is such bumped up disaster music. You know, they never had that much horror involved with it and to keep you watching. And then, of course, your computer is showing you images of things that you're really addicted to, like shoes. So our attention, I call it weapons of mass distraction. We're torn. And so, you know, in the past we had community or we had religion or we had family. But that's why mindfulness comes in, because it's a way of cooling your stress and focusing, which're a parent because that noise can sometimes really affect

how you the decisions you make as a parent because you say you choose to do something for your child and you see all the stuff on social media that someone else is doing it differently. Do you think it's really helpful for parents? Yeah if parents learn how to do something like that it's not like they teach their kids because if if you say to your kid, do you want to learn this, they'll do everything but that. But if a parent can look, get that state where they can not have that trigger response, you know, that you throw some rage at me and I throw it right back, because that's how humans roll. You know, we're kind of reptilian. But if the parent learns to really hear the kid,

be curious about the kid, reflect back to the kid and not be too punishing and really be able to set the boundaries, you know, set it when it really means something, the kid might be curious how the parent is like that. They want to imitate this, you know, somebody who really can, as I say, roll with the punches. If the parent can be resilient, the kid might just have more of a chance.

If you're a neurotic and you, especially if you have depression, not that the kid's automatically going to catch it, but children imbue what's wrong with their parents because they don't want to think anything's wrong with the parent, you know, because those are the people saving them. So a kid absorbs sometimes the neurosis or even the depression. It's really good if you're also, Winnicott says, a good enough mother, you know, but admit your mistakes. I wish I knew this stuff now. Say, you know,

I might not be getting this right. I'm really trying to hear your point of view. But when they need the law set down, set it down, but don't set it down all the time. How many times a day can we set it down? Four. Okay, four. I'm going to live by the rule of four. No, I don't think so. I think it's tough. I was tough on my kids, and my parents brought up, literally beat me up. But it depends, the individual case. And when I wrote another book called A Mindfulness Guide for the Frazzled, there's a whole section on curriculum, which teaches teachers what to do. But certainly parents can steal some of those ideas and the ideas are fantastic. OK, we're all going to be going and dipping into that tonight. Now, one of the you've got a new book out. It's called A Mindfulness Guide for Survival.

Yeah, I wrote it because of in the pandemic. I had a I run something called Frazzle Cafe, which means I have hundreds of people on, and I did it every night. And the idea is they can't talk about the news. It's not therapy. But I always say, could you please give me the weather condition in your mind? And it's got a format. There's breakout groups. And people just spill what they're feeling, which is very rare in real life, you know, with

vulnerability isn't weak. And you see all those heads nodding from around the world sometimes going, yeah, I feel that way too. And sometimes talking is half the cure. So certain things were coming up over and over again during the lockdown. Yeah, mostly the six big realities, which is loneliness. Excuse me, I was lonely before the COVID thing. Uncertainty, change, dissatisfaction, high emotions and death. So I wrote this book, which is a journal and it's a workbook so that you can write down. Yeah, you can fill it in and scribble your thoughts, can't you? Yeah, and it asks certain questions and that's kind of a way of finding out how do you react to these situations? You know, I'd watch some people get these thoughts of, oh my God, I'm going to have a nervous breakdown. Other ones froze, other ones got angry.

And so it's really important to say, what's my mood, you know, usually. So I usually have, I'm addicted to rage. I'm quite an angry person myself. Yeah. You know, you lean to something and that's my proclivity. So noticing that, just noticing how you react and what are your thoughts helps you have more choice. And if you face the monster, it runs from you. And if you run from the have more choice and if you face the monster it runs from you and

if you run from the monster it chases you so inside is really important what am i what's my internal landscape mine is always i'm not good enough everybody's going to know i'm a fraud that's my soundtrack so when i react to situations like that i have to lean back a little and go maybe i'm an idiot but not all the time so So true. Now, one of the lines in the new book that really jumped out and clattered me around the head like a saucepan was, we're Velcro for negative thoughts and Teflon for positive ones. Why are we like that? And I'm raising this because we have lots of parent listeners, obviously, and the whole social media comparing how you parent and you see other people whose families look like the Waltons in every photo and yours look like the bloody Adams family. Like, why? Why do we think everyone else is getting it right and we're getting it wrong?

Well, we are out of five thoughts. They say four are negative. And a lot of this has to do with evolution. It really worked when you had to look around for what was safe and what wasn't. You really had to lean toward it wasn't safe. Was it a snake? Was it a stick? Because if it was a snake, you were gone. If you're just happy and everything's going well, it doesn't imprint in your memory. So we remember what's dangerous. and so it's a lot of things that are not working for us now really worked well back then you know evolution meant well it really cared about your survival it really didn't care about your happiness so we usually look for what's wrong what's wrong don't you ask your kids you know what went wrong

yeah what's wrong yeah what went right was anyone mean to you today? I know. I always say, was anyone mean to you today? Why do I ask that? And then that kid picks it up and gets nervous. You know, what was wrong? And then you pass this legacy down. Oh, my God, what was wrong? What was right?

It's so freeing to know that it's not, some of it isn't our fault, if you see what I mean. It's not our fault. It's in our makeup. But then the point of my book and whatever in mindfulness and cognitive therapy is to recognize it and then really use that muscle of self-compassion and kindness and you can change the way your brain works you can switch it but it takes it's like going to the gym it feels really hard to do though i've tried to do some of this stuff in the past and i've just always crashed out and not got very far. I don't think you have.

I think you're great, Wendy. Ruby, do you think you're greater now because you know this stuff, because you've done that working out, you flex the muscle? I don't think I'm greater. I still have the voices that say you're an idiot and you're not good enough.

It's just the mindfulness because it helps you lower that red mist right it means the more you get panicked about those thoughts the higher the cortisol gets and the more they plague you as i said again you're the one we sabotage our own minds going oh i shouldn't think like this am i an idiot oh my god it's the worry on top of the worry that's what frazzled me. It's stress about stress. But I think that I recognize that those are my theme songs. And it's more like, you know, you had an accident at one point and now there's a scar. And when I get those thoughts, I'm so used to them that I almost go,

yeah, yeah, that's Spotify track number 45. Oh, that's my, I'm an idiot. That's my track number 45. Oh, that's my, I'm an idiot. That's my track number six. And it becomes, they give up eventually if you keep looking at them. And it's more like listening to a radio in another room than believing, oh my God, I'm an idiot. What do I do about it?

Because that'll give you a heart attack. And that happened during lockdown is that people were getting ill, not because of the COVID, but because of the worry of what if, not because of the COVID, but because of the worry of what if, what if, the catastrophizing. So again, it's a relief to know out of five thoughts for a negative. If you get to know that, and you listen to some of my exercises, you can gradually flip it to, I'll hold on to that one and let the four go. Oh, that's fascinating. So one of the reasons

Netmums was ever kind of set up in the first place was to become a place for new mums experiencing PND to come together and have a chat about what they were going through. And what fascinates me is you've raised kids and you're out the other side now. Okay, they might still be giving you grief and demanding you pick them up from the airport, but they're alive and you're out the other side now. Okay, they might still be giving you grief and demanding you pick them up from the airport, but they're alive and you're not in the cold face of toddlerhood anymore. So what would you say to those juggling any sort of mental health issues and young kids right now?

What do you know that they don't? What would you like to share? Well, it depends what age. You know, kids go through something that looks like depression at a certain age. All right, I'm jumping to puberty. So let's go back. Your worry is really going to catch them. And what passes this wonderful chemical called oxytocin is when you touch them and hug them and look in their eyes and rock them. That soothing stands them in really good stead later on in life because they're learning to soothe themselves.

And they know when you fake it, don't just go, oh, aren't you cute? But really when they're babies, it's the rocking, it's the holding. And there's something called mentalization. It's the therapy where you really try and get in their minds. How do they see it? So it's almost like you're the mirror reflecting, oh, you feel that way. Is that true? Is that, you know, by mirroring them, you're enhancing those mirror neurons, which means, again, later in life, they can read people really well. If you have a dead face, like, say, no expression, and you're a mother, that's really unhealthy for a kid. He's learning or she's learning by your facial muscles how to express

emotions. So, you know, it's about the bonding early. And when they get crazy, you know, and have one of their fits, hand it to somebody else, hand it to your your husband and get out of the room because if you start getting hysterical you're not getting anywhere then your brain is flooded so a lot of things with mindfulness is recognized when you're hitting your tipping point oh god that's so hard with toddlers though so hard to keep your cool i used to have to go and sit down the end of the garden with a bottle of wine it was the only way well Well, then you go in a toilet and scream. I did that too. The thing with mindfulness, so it's a practice.

You practice it every day so that you get better and better at pulling that red mist down. That's what the point of it is. I could tell you the science of why it works, but you get more and more, what do I call it, flexibility. And like, you know, if you pumped iron every day with your arm, then you can lift a piano at the end. If you haven't practiced, you're going to lose your mind when that kid starts crying. But, you know, the reason I practice every day is I can have a spurt of anger, but it doesn't linger. You know, it's poison. Actually, the anger gives you, you know, backwash.

You're filled with toxicity and you have the kind of hangover the next day. So it would help if a mother practiced a little mindfulness. Not because you're going to be cool and you're going to be in bliss and sit on your gluten-free cushion, but you can really recognize when you're going to be cool and you're going to be in bliss and sit on your gluten-free cushion, but you can really recognize when you're going to lose it. And then you can take your focus to the instructions of mindfulness. I like that it's very liberating to think that it's okay that you weren't born good at this stuff. Who's born good at this? Yeah, that it's okay that you need to learn it and it's okay that you need to practice it. And, yeah, I feel quite cleansed by this conversation, Ruby. But, I mean, were you born buff?

You know, if you want a six-pack, maybe somebody's born with it, but you have to do something. And the thing with mindfulness, it's just like going to the gym. It should be called a brain workout. But with that, you're going to live longer. You might not get a lot of dates, but you're going to live better and you're going to the gym it should be called a brain workout but you're gonna with that you're gonna live longer you might not get a lot of dates but you're gonna live better and you're gonna be happier but with a six-pack you know you're gonna score yeah you really are right we're coming towards the end of this episode i know i know i don't i could talk about this all day to be honest um one of the things we always ask towards the end and i'm not asking this because i'm saying you're old um how do you want to be remembered by your kids ruby um well they now when i was when they were very young they were upset that i went to work all the time

you know all the other mothers made easter hats with live chickens on them and you know and they my kids were always upset that mothers made sandwiches in the shapes of giraffes. And I could see they were really upset. But now they go, oh, we're so glad you work because that's an inspiration. And you're really interesting and interested. So I'd like my kids to keep going like that and think, get an interest, keep interested in something, because otherwise, if you turn your attention too much to your kids, eventually they'll leave. And think you're really boring. Yeah. So I'd like them to think what an interesting person that was and how funny she was, because now I make them laugh. They weren't laughing when they were little. Now, a much trickier question, Ruby Ruby what's for tea and who's cooking but you're not at home so it's probably the man in the hotel or the lady we're doing a barbecue on the beach oh how nice in

Scotland that's bold Scotland I know Marina's boyfriend is doing it. I love it. But that's okay. Do you like her boyfriend? Yeah, I do. I do. That's a good thing. Yeah, he's cute. But I hope they become successful comedians. But if they don't, that's my problem. You know what I mean?

I don't want to... Is your son as funny as your daughters? He's a coder. So luckily he's got a real job. Someone in the family has to have a real job, I always say. Two, yeah. Now, last question. You're probably going to hate me, but never mind.

We ask all of our guests this to close the show. Please will you take us back to when your kids were tiny and sing us the lullaby that you sang in your family when your kids couldn't sleep? Okay. It's by Shirley Temple used to sing this. And I'd move their legs so they were dancing. I'm gonna copy you, that's a cool idea. If you could see this, you could take their leg and you kick it like the rock, you know,

like as if they're in chorus line. You bend them and then you straighten them and then you lower them and put them on their back. So I do, I'm the good ship lollipop. It's a sweet trip to the candy shop where the bum-bums play. Then you take their legs and put them apart. Bum-bums play.

And then twirl them on the sunny beach of Peppermint Bay. Lemonade stands fill the air. Cracker Jack bands you'll find everywhere. Wear the legs apart bum bums play on the sunny beach of peppermint bay then you pull their heads up

I think that deserves a round of applause we have never had a lullaby with movements in before so thank you legs kicking legs apart for bum bums thank you so much Ruby Wax

that's been an absolute pleasure and you've taught us a lot. Thank you. Thank you. Bye Ruby. Bye bye.