The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep59: SCREEN TIME SPECIAL: what parents REALLY need to know

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

How much is too much? And how can you EVER keep them safe online? Mum of teenage twin boys and head of Internet Matters, Carolyn Bunting, shares why she DOESN'T limit screen time, but also what she DOES do to keep her boys safe online.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy Gollidge. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are. Welcome to another special episode of Sweat, Snot and Tears. Today we are talking about the perennial argument in any household nowadays, it is screen time. Wendy, I don't know about you, but we have, if not tears, probably sweat. And no, not snot, but probably sweat most days talking about screen time and managing who's going to be logged on when, who isn't going to be logged on when and why it's important that they don't be logged on all of the time.

We have tears it's a really big deal for us getting my eldest off of a screen she's very good at coming off of it but then she's very bloody grumpy for a good half an hour afterwards i know i do think it does something to their little teeny weeny brains do you it really does and so listeners, you'll be very thrilled to hear that I'm going to be quiet in this podcast because I want to know everything our lovely guest just says. And I'm going to shut up for once. Well, not that I was going to say that's a good thing. But to be honest, it is a good thing that we listen up to today's guest because she is an expert on all things screen time. Please welcome Carolyn Bunting, who is the CEO of

Internet Matters. Welcome, Carolyn. Hi, good morning to both of you. She's very relieved, everyone, that she's not going to have to sing on this podcast because it is a special. All we want to know is help, help, help. How can we get them off their screens? And when are we allowed to let them on their screens? So to start with, please tell us, what is Internet Matters? Internet Matters is a not-for-profit organisation that's there to really help parents keep their children safe online and to make sure that they are thriving and they are happy and healthy online. So we provide parents with lots of great resources, advice, top tips and hints, how to set up parental controls, all of those interesting

things that will help you as a parent make sure that your child's getting the best out of being online. So let's go back a little bit first, Carolyn. First, I know you're a mum, which matters a huge amount to us. I am, yep. It does matter because it means you really get it, don't you? But you've kind of worked your way up on some pretty spangly media giants you've worked for sky and vodafone how do you go on to become the ceo of internet matters is it and i wondered if it's when you had kids you suddenly thought oh crikey this

is really important or is there a slightly different routine slightly different routine so I was working at Sky loved working at Sky they were part of four organizations that got together back in 2014 the four big broadband companies so there was BT, Sky, Virgin Media and TalkTalk and the four of those at the time that the political landscape and everything back then was about the ability for children to access adult content online far too easily. And so there was a lot of pressure on the broadband companies to do something about that. And as part of that, they set up, they committed to creating what is now Internet Matters. And there was an opportunity to go and apply for the role to run the organization.

And I did. And I went through quite an interesting interview process with lots of CEOs in different places. And I was delighted to be able to get it. Yes, it was terrifying. I won't lie. And I've been there ever since. So I've been there now for seven years. But I have to say, it is the best job I have ever had. I love what I do. I feel like, you know, if we can make a difference and keep just one child free from being harmed online,

then it's worth all the hard work and the effort. How old are your kids, Carolyn? So I have twin boys who are... You deserve a medal. They will be 13 in September. Oh, Christ. That's your great twin. Yes, the cold face of internet things.

I am. Wow. They must be amazing guinea pigs to, like, study and learn from. They are, but they hate that I have. Wow. They must be amazing guinea pigs to like study and learn from. They are, but they hate that I have this job. Oh, I bet they do. Because they feel like I constrain them too much. But the reality is I don't constrain them actually that much. It's just been something that as they've grown up as children, because I've been doing it since they were little, it's something that's been implicit every day, every other day we're talking about it because that's what I do at work.

So actually, you know, they actually have a fair bit of freedom online to be fair. So tell me, give me the screen and internet rules in your house. So in our house, it's really interesting. So the way I approached it is when they were little, I set up all the sort of technical things that you can set up. So the parental controls on your broadband, the things like putting safe search onto Google so that they don't come across any inappropriate content, put restricted mode onto YouTube, which takes anything that's sort of more adult out of YouTube. So my approach was to set up those parental controls so that because when they were little, most of what they were doing was browsing and engaging with content

that you were, you know, not 100% because these things are never 100%, but you're pretty confident they're not seeing rubbishy stuff. Then we obviously talk about it an awful lot. And so we set up this sort of framework that if you want to look at anything new or if you want to open a new website or download a particular app, you have to come and ask and do that. Okay, that's a good one. And then the timing around it all i'm it's really

interesting to hear your um dilemma of getting your children off of their screens i'm much more relaxed about that i think carolyn i know you're doing it all wrong it's a free-for-all in the bunting house it's not a free-for-all. There are some rules around bedtime and mealtimes and homework and things like that, obviously. But the thing is to think about it in a balanced way. If your children are happily going to school, happily making friends, happily, you know, having a broad set of interests and are physically active and are meeting their friends and doing all the usual things that children would do, you know, you've got to look at screen time as a balance in all of that mix. And then within the screen time itself is looking at what they're using the screen for. You know, if, for example, they're listening to music

or if they are researching for their homework or if they've got a particular hobby that they're, you've got to look at the purpose of why they're using it. You know, clearly, if your child is sitting there and just mindlessly scrolling for hours on end, that's something to be worried about. But if they're using their devices to enhance their lives and their hobbies and you know stay connected with their friends you've got to look at it as a kind of what's the purpose of why they're using the

screen rather than how long they're actually using it for and so that's where oh god i've got so many questions okay but should i tell you what already my anxiety levels in my tummy have gone down yeah I feel like I can breathe a bit like okay it's okay it's okay like if they're doing it not in a crazy way we're okay yeah we're okay yeah and don't forget children you know children will do the things that they like doing and they like like, you know, I know we didn't, well, I certainly didn't have these gadgets and stuff when I was growing up. But Crikey, if you could have watched your programme on TV

over and over and over again, you would have done because that's just implicitly as a child, you're drawn to the things that you like doing. So I think we just have to, I think it's just important for parents to sort of nudge their children into the right balance. We talk about having a healthy digital diet. And, you know, if you're on a screen because you're learning something new or you're researching something or you're being creative or, you know, all of that's good stuff.

If you're communicating with your friends and family, terrific. It is that mindless scrolling where it's sort of what I would call sort of passive, you're not getting anything from it, you know. So if you're, you know, if you're spending two hours watching a TikTok feed, that's probably not the best use of your time. And that's absolutely when parents need to intervene. But try not to think of it as it's a set number of hours, because I just think you'll be fighting a losing battle. That's really interesting. So come on then, Wendy, you've got these questions burning inside you. Ask, ask, ask.

Oh Christ, I don't know where to start. Okay, so you've made me feel better about the length of the screen time. Yes. As long as it's productive. But it's not often productive. It's often Minecraft. This is the problem. But I see Minecraft as maths, Wend. No?

No, I'm, I'm, I'm liking this. Carolyn, talk to me. Again, I think you, you know, there are many positive things about Minecraft in terms of the creativity. You know, my son plays Minecraft. He builds lots of flash-looking houses that he wants to live in with massive rooms. Yes, and vets. There's lots of vets in my child's world. So there's enormous creativity in Minecraft. And there is elements of teamwork in Minecraft as well.

Yes. You know, so I wouldn't say, you know, that just because they're spending hours playing Minecraft, that's necessarily bad. It comes back to balance and getting, the thing I would say is making sure that you have that make sure they have healthy breaks from it. And I think like, like all children, if you kind of say you've been on that long, you really need to take a break. And my strategy like 10 minutes take a break for 10 minutes but then that 10 minutes usually turns into 20 or 30 because they then go and do something else and find something else to do see that's a brilliant tip so my daughter and her best friend were playing minecraft

and somebody random popped up in their world. That's not cool. Now, luckily, my daughter was on Minecraft with her best friend, who is a policeman's daughter, so is very good at all of this. So they just left the world and came and told us. But that sort of stuff, if you'll pardon me, scares the shit out of me. No, yeah, that's, I didn't, okay, you freaked me yeah that's i didn't okay you freaked me out now because i didn't know that could happen carolyn yes look there's no doubt that um

you're like an emergency service you haven't given us your mobile have you because we're texting you about 18 times carolyn carolyn something's happened what should i do yeah like sorry i said i wouldn't interrupt no no it's fine look it's it's inevitable that that our children are going to be approached by people that they don't know online at some point right um because whether they're playing um particularly gaming because gaming is now um it's so much online real real time, you know, with messaging between participants and everything else, and particularly in gaming where children may game with people that they don't know. You know, and on social media, you're going to get friends requests, you know, even on email, you get spam email that kind of, you know, is from, you know, nice lady and wherever she is wants to meet you. So our children are always going to get these kinds of requests. So that's why it's so important

that from an early age, you start having those conversations about the fact that that will happen. And the important thing is when it does happen, what do you do? And what a classic, brilliant example that you said there, that the girls just basically thought, that's a bit weird. I'm going to go and tell my mum or dad. And that's exactly what you want to happen. It's about encouraging them to speak up, isn't it? Totally. And I also say to my children, you'll make mistakes, right? Because that's what children do. That's how children learn to make the right choices. It's how they build their resilience. And, you know, so they will make mistakes. The role of us as parents is to make sure that we're

there and that we don't judge them too much for making their mistakes. It's not their fault some random stranger jumped into Minecraft. You know, they've got to know that you're not going to go mad or threaten to stop them playing or, you know, that you're there to support them and you'll fix it together. And I think that's the goal that you want because you're going to be fighting a losing battle if you want to try and create an environment where your child is never going to be approached by somebody they don't know online. It's a good life lesson, isn't it? That if something goes wrong, we learn from it and we adapt, like maybe adapt the parental controls or whatever the safety settings are, that we don't just throw the baby out of the bathwater and go, that's it, you're never playing Minecraft ever again. Yes. Because the thing we always encourage parents to do is to not threaten to take the tech away, even when something really horrific happens.

Because if you do, children won't come and talk to you about it, because the technology for them is often a lifeline. It's their digital playground, it's their access to their community. And so if you threaten to take the tech away, all they'll do is not tell you that something's going wrong, because they'll think, oh, God, they're going to take my phone off me. You know, if that's what happens every time something goes nearly a little bit wrong. So it's really important. You know, the biggest part of our work is trying to encourage parents to have that interest and engagement with what their kids are doing online to make sure they're taking the opportunities to talk about the scenarios that might happen and the risks they might encounter and then what they can do about it.

One of the things I say to mine, which always makes them laugh, but I hope it sows a seed of seriousness, is if ever anyone you don't know joins you online, like happened to Wendy's daughter, imagine it's likely to be an old man in his pants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exactly that.

They're probably not another nine-year-old girl or boy. And whenever I say that, they giggle. I'm like, no, seriously, how do you know who anyone is? And it does so that thing of, yeah, actually, I can't see them. I don't know who they are. Absolutely. We talk about developing critical thinking skills. And it's really important that again, we, you know, and that applies to all aspects of the internet, you know, what you read on Wikipedia, is it true? that again we you know and that applies to all aspects of the internet you know what you read on wikipedia is it true fake news you know all of that kind of thing it is is just encouraging children to think about who who that might be or is what i'm reading true um you know can i verify it does it feel right and all it's that critical thinking that you're

trying to get children to um you know really deploy when they're online and that comes through having conversations it comes through exactly as you've done of saying do you know who that person might you don't know who that person is could be this kind of person could be that kind of person and you know and children don't want to come to harm at the end of the day so if they know that and they've got that front of mind they will just then say i need to talk to you about this and can you help me and that and they've got that front of mind, they will just then say, I need to talk to you about this and can you help me? And that's what you want because once they engage with you, you can then decide how you want to go about it and what you want to do about it.

So if the biggest danger to our kids isn't time spent online necessarily when it comes to the internet, what are the biggest dangers, Carolyn? So there's lots of sort of traditional risks that children, that parents talk to us about. So in particular, viewing inappropriate content. So whether that's violent content or pornography, there's the contact risk of being groomed, you know, and I think that's every parent's biggest fear, isn't it? That their child is going to be groomed. And then there's typically things like bullying online. And that, again, is something that can happen to quite a lot of children. And I think of, you know, in terms of sort of those risks, there are things, there are strategies that you can put in place, obviously, to try and minimize

those risks. So, the viewing of content, lots and lots of technical tools that you can put on. And I say technical, and that probably makes it sound really scary. It's not really. They're settings that you can deploy to basically... But what if that's terrifying for you? What if you're a person who doesn't know where to start? Yeah, because it's kind of terrifying for me. I'm the editor of a big website and I'm scared of the settings. So we've set out one of the things that we've done is we have over 80 odd guides at Internet Matters for all of the popular networks. So the broadband networks, mobile phone networks, the social media networks, the gaming platforms, the games themselves, you know, all of the things that children are most likely to use, you'll find a step-by-step guide at Internet Matters that will basically talk you through how you can set all of the controls. There are a lot of them, I think,

and it doesn't make parents' lives any easier that, you know, there are a lot of them. But most of the big platforms that children are using, most of the games that children you know, there are a lot of them. But most of the big platforms that children are using, most of the games that children are using, because of a sort of more intense regulatory environment that we're getting in the UK, they are starting to really introduce lots and lots of controls and privacy settings and parental options to make sure that children are safe. So I would, you know, I would certainly encourage parents to do that. There's just lots of options that they can deploy. And the step-by-step guides and videos we've got online as well,

if you're not into reading it, you can watch a video of how to set it. Just take the time to set those things up for the key things that your children are using. Okay. We need to ask you about the dreaded social media, Carolyn. Yeah, I'm starting to worry about this. Are your boys on social? Well, it depends what you call by social media. They're not creating content, user generated content. But they are on WhatsApp. They have WhatsApp groups with their their classmates and i think that's uh that's i

don't know whether that's because they're boys that they're not into instagram and snapchat yet because those are the other two big platforms well and tiktok as well but even whatsapp scares me how because i just there's a lot of gangness on whatsapp it's all about forming groups and that's the challenge the challenge is um the friendship groups and the understanding of the communication so we've had a few instances where um both sides of the fence actually where one where you know upset child because something's happened in the chat you know and you have to sit down and try and resolve that and think talk it through and we've had equally I've had one of my children has upset someone else in a chat you know so again you have to sit down and talk that through but in many ways that's not it's not the fault of the

messaging platform that's just what kids do that's life that could have happened on the bus or yeah I think the interesting thing though is what what what I speak to my boys about is just that the use of text and emojis and particularly, oh, my God, children text. I don't it's even worse than adult short text that they have. I mean, some of it you just don't get at all. I'm going, what's that? That ability to interpret something differently, I think, is something we've talked about. That when you're face to face, you can see whether someone's joking. You can see their body language and how they're feeling.

Whereas when it's on text, it's very black and white. And obviously people can read things in different ways. So I've talked to my children about you just need to realize it's a different medium. And so what you might be saying is a banter could come across as somebody else's upsetting and likewise what someone's written to you they maybe didn't mean it quite in the way that they meant it and again that it is really it is managing those friendship groups is quite difficult but the best thing to do is to sit down and chat about it can i ask a personal question sorry i'm gonna keep dragging your family into this um how old were your boys when you gave

them a phone and was it one with the internet on it um so my uh so i'm a single mum so my boys uh trot off to their dads every other weekend um which is great so dad it was the first one to give them proper they had ipads first of all right so that was tablets were the first device i it all starts with pepper pig doesn't it it does you're so right everything starts with pepper let's blame the demon pig so you know you know and they get the tablet and they watch one episode of pepper and then you know frankly as a parent you realize there's 5 000 episodes of pepper and that makes like half of you well yeah half he's quite peaceful like right i can actually do this now and daddy pig is a twat in every single one of them you just know it's just the way it is mine have come full

circle now are watching the pepper pig that's overdubbed, you know, into comedy videos on YouTube, which is quite funny, but they're obviously a lot older. But they started on tablets. And so it was very content, as I say, all accessing content, lots of YouTube and so on. They then got into gaming. So it then became, we had Nintendo DSs, and they've now on to Switches. And I think Nintendo is great for children. I think it's a really nice, the games, the consoles, they are really family friendly. And so I never really felt concerned about anything that they were doing on those. They got a phone in the last year of primary school. Okay, yes, this is why I'm asking because everyone debates, should you do it at the end of primary or beginning of secondary?

And it's all very stressful. They got a phone last year. They weren't the first, they weren't the last. And I think really the driver for me was we were trying to start, and clearly the pandemic had a massive impact on it. Yeah, I was going to ask about that. But that last year of year six is is usually the time when children start um practicing walking independently to school perhaps you know because they might have to get on a coach in the future or they might have to walk and obviously they're getting older and it's not cool to be at the gate at secondary school with your mum and dad waiting for you is it

so so this independence comes in the last year of secondary school, that practicing. And so they got them, they actually got them for Christmas from their dad, bought them. Dad, a bit strange. He bought them iPhones, very fancy iPhones, which probably wouldn't have been my choice. I would have either given them a secondhand one. But they're internet connected. They're set up on sort of family sharing and so forth. So they've got controls on them. They switch off at bedtime.

And you can see what they're looking at. Yeah, the screen time. Apple have a great, it's called screen time function where you can set all the parental controls that you can set even down to things like explicit music or not in the iTunes store. You can set, you know, ratings for the sites that you can see. So it will block sites automatically. So they're all set up with all of the controls again. And then we have a, again, we have an agreement that if you want to download an app, you have to come and tell me what app it is that you want to download. And I either say yes or no. And the, and I also

have their passwords. So they also know that I pick up their phones and check them. I check their WhatsApp groups. I check their browsing histories. But, but they know I do that. So I don't do it secretly. It's a, it's an, you know, secretly. We've agreed that upfront that that's part of the deal of having a phone. We work with Linda Papadopoulos, who's a psychologist, and she talks about privacy is earned, that children need to demonstrate they're able to have, as they mature, they need to have their privacy. But you earn that privacy by showing you're responsible. By showing that you're trustworthy. Yeah, and you're trustworthy. So that's how we have them set up. And the reality is they use the phone to chat in their group chats, but that's about it and phoning us to get a lift.

Yeah. But what about, I guess you said you've got boys so it's not yes the social the kind of social side of things is a bit different but different yeah we had to my daughter is nine yep and she has a mobile without a sim card in which is essentially used for yeah playing spotify so that she can listen to music and podcasts and rinse me for audio audible books every three minutes um but what she's a lego fiend and she discovered the lego life app yeah now I don't know if it's basically where you design your little people and you post pictures of them but we found ourselves much earlier than we thought.

That was my doorbell, sorry. That's all right. That's life, that's life. We suddenly found ourselves having to have a conversation with a nine-year-old that was much earlier than I thought I was going to about the importance of what other people think about what you post and why you're posting stuff because

she got really quite obsessed by putting up these pictures to get more likes and I found myself having the likes conversation which I knew was coming I've got a daughter who's going to be a teenage daughter who's going to want to post stuff on Instagram or whatever platform it is by the time she's a teenager yeah talk to me about that, Carolyn, because it was a really big shock that I was suddenly talking about whether that kind of stuff with a nine-year-old. Yeah. And I think this is one of the sort of reflections of society, isn't it? And the way it's changed so much from when, again, before digital really existed. When I was growing up as a teenager, and you wanted to try out the new hairstyle or try out the new clothing, you did it in a world that was quite a supportive network of your friends and family.

And therefore, if you got it wrong, it was it was it's a sort of safe place to be able to do that that the advent of social media is that you're just there's this ability to share with the world and for the world to comment on you and that is potentially quite damaging um you know for young people because well for everybody on this podcast my god we've had so many people of the number of parents we've had famous capable talented achieving amazing people who are reduced to utter panic after people have been and that's why I guess for me I would be thinking about you know the network that she's sharing with there's there's nothing wrong with sharing and using the digital environment to share but it's who you're sharing with and what you're

sharing well we've actually made her delete it in honesty yeah because i decided she was if it was affecting her that she was too young to be doing it i think that's a good point carolyn it's like we need to be explained to them that sharing with your friends is one thing. People who know you, love you, respect you, are going to be kind to you. But throwing yourself out into the wider world is a whole different ballgame, isn't it? No, I don't think I do. really slowly. So, you know, it's a safe profile and it's really sharing with just your very close friends and family. And then it sort of, you know, you grow that out as the maturity develops. And, you know, and also I think it's about having those conversations that make sure, again, that they understand how society works. You know, you understand that, you know, everybody on social media posts all of the best things that are happening to them, right? No one's ever having a bad day or very few people are

having a bad day. They live perfect lives with perfect bodies, perfect faces, perfect hair, perfect makeup. But you know, behind that is a whole heap of photo manipulation, is a whole heap of, you know, stylists and makeup. And it's not real, you know, so I think it's important that we talk to children about what's real, and what's, you know, been edited, adjusted, created, you know, for what is in essence, often commercial reasons, you know, whether that's to get sponsorship deals, or plug products, or whatever it is. So again, teaching children to think critically about what they're seeing online is really important. And then as you know, obviously, as you talked about, and think about what they're sharing and what it says about them online,

obviously, for young people, you know, you want them to share safely. So, you know, thinking about not posting anything that's going to be embarrassing, or, you know, thinking about not posting anything that's going to be embarrassing or, you know, give away too much about their identity or whatever. Those things are really important to think about as well. Sorry, I've got so many questions like you, Wendy. Can I jump in with one more and then it's your turn, Wend? What effect do you think the pandemic's had on our children's internet usage? We did, we research with parents on a regular basis. We do it every three or four months. And so we were in a privileged position to have done the research both before, during and after the pandemic. And a few things, a few real highlights came out of

that for us. Overall, for most children, we saw marginal changes in sort of their experience of online risk and harm. And generally speaking, parents felt that the Internet during the pandemic really helped, you know, because of education and because of keeping their kids entertained. They did say that they felt at the end of the pandemic that their children were over reliant on the tech and I think that is one of the things that you know once once everyone was on it it's hard to claw it back and we probably have a few um they sort of the top end of primary that probably were thrust into it a bit prematurely because it was the only way of of keeping engaged with their friends and with their family yeah but the big thing that we saw, and we do a lot of work in this space, is that it was children that have vulnerabilities that actually had a much

harder time. So if your child has got SEND, or is a young carer, or has got an eating disorder, or mental health issues, those children, we saw quite significant increases in their experience of risk and harm during the pandemic. And that aligns to much of the research that we see. And that is the online harms isn't spread proportionately amongst children whilst every child can be at risk. I think it's because their cognitive ability and their emotional ability to understand what is going on is sometimes lacking. You know, if you've got autism or if you've got mental health issues where you're depressed or isolated or whatever, those children are much more prone to being potentially exploited and to build relationships with people online where obviously someone's being a bad actor and they are also you know you get into the sort of they see much more exposure to sites that talk about suicide or sites that talk about pro-anorexia just because they are they're a vulnerable cohort in society and they're you know

you know you want you want to believe that every child has a wonderful parent that is putting their needs and their care and their safety front and centre of everything that they do. But sadly, not all parents are like that. And so there is a cohort of young people that are particularly vulnerable and they fared worse in the pandemic. That's really sad. So what, I don't know if there is just one thing, Carolyn, but if you could do a loud speaker announcement to every parent in the UK, think of the old hear ye, hear ye, what would you say that we all must do to keep our children safer online? And actually also, if you could get the government to do one thing, what would it be? Good question, Wendell. So the government, I'll do the government thing first.

The government are doing a bit more, but it's so slow. It needs to go much, much, much quicker. There's no regulation at the moment. There's not there's no regulation. There's a little bit of regulation of the internet at the moment. But if you think about your TV, you know, there's a watershed, there's a, you know, the government have introduced something called the Online Safety Bill, which is going to be the first step in. They've appointed Ofcom as the regulator, a new regulator for the internet. And at its basic level, they will be legally obliged to fulfill their terms and conditions.

So things like not having bullying on their platform or not sharing, you know, illegal content like terrorism and all the rest of it. And they can be fined and all of that if they don't. So there is regulation coming, but it's very slow. It's unlikely to really be here before 2024, 23, 24, before it takes effect. Such a long time. Such a long time. Such a long time.

So the government, you know, we need them to do more and just, you know, make sure that the, you know, that the internet is a safe place for our children to be. You know, we can't turn the clock back and rewind it, but what we can do is make sure, in the same way that we put, you know, when you buy a toy, it has to meet certain standards, you know, you look for the kite mark, you know, so we need to make sure that the internet for our young people is a place where they can thrive, and they can get all the benefits from it, because we know the outcomes are better if they do, you know, but

that they're safe. And that is an obligation that the government have. If there was one thing I would tell parents to do in the interim, I think my biggest thing is be nosy. I think if you're nosy... Or Wendy and I will be fine. I won't be went. Off we go. Poking around in business that's not ours. Yeah. And I think just, you know, engage in your... You know, your children don't view the phone as something that is their life. You know, it is their life, but you have a right to be, as a parent, engaged in their life. So ask them what they're doing. You know, if they're using an app that you don't know about, download the app.

Go and find out what it's like. Go and work out for yourself what the risks are and then maybe have the conversation. So I would just say be engaged, be engaged and use every opportunity that you can to talk to them about critical thinking, to talk to them about what they might see and find on the internet and to build that open, trusting relationship that they can come and talk to you if they ever find themselves in trouble, because that's the key. I think this is really interesting just a final kind of summarizing note um it's all really about communicating with your kids isn't it

which is ultimately what anything's about when it's being a parent i've worked on campaigns to do with protecting children from sexual abuse and in fact all of the advice you give is the same which is have a relationship with your kids or they know they can come and talk to you about anything that's the best way to protect them from anything isn't it absolutely and you know start young and just keep that dialogue going keep that trust going you know as i say don't threaten to take away the devices you want to i think that's a really key take out from today which makes absolute sense but it didn't until you said it yeah but and also don't stress about the time. Yeah.

I wouldn't stress about time. I don't stress about time because I just think if I stress about time, I'll be having an argument with everybody every day. And that is a, it's a battle I can't fight. I think that the more important thing for me was that they understood why I was worried about them and that they knew what to do. And we agreed certain things that we would do, you know, in certain scenarios. And that it's like anything, you agree what would happen if a stranger approached them in the park, you'd agree what would happen, you know, if they're going out with their friends, they have to be home, you have to know where they're going. It's exactly

the same approach. It's just in a a digital environment that's a really good way of thinking about it carolyn thank you so much you've been amazing oh i could talk to you all day thank you and thank you for not making me sing i am delighted about that well we're gonna do it next time i was gonna say can we do this every few months because i'm sure there's gonna be things you need to update us on and also when you know i will just just need regularly calming down really yeah no i mean there's going to be things you need to update us on. And also, Wendy and I will just need regularly calming down, really. Yeah, no, I mean, there's so many different topics you can deep dive into, whether it's gaming or social media, you know, or gosh, so many, so many. Well, what I'm going to say is to all of our listeners, email us at netmums.

Our addresses are on the website. And tell us what you want us to ask Carolyn next time, because I'm sure you do have lots of burning questions, just like Wendy and I did. And yeah, we'll keep chatting as a regular thing. Right, Carolyn? Fantastic. I'd love to.

Amazing. Right. Thank you so much. Go and enjoy your day. And tell your boys we're really sorry we spoke about them behind the back for 45 minutes. I will. All right. Lovely to chat.

Bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye.