The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep65: Jeff Brazier on why we all need to give ourselves a break!

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

Listen as presenter and life coach Jeff Brazier dials in from his dentist's consultation room (long story!) to give Wendy and Annie the lowdown on the parenting years, once your kids have emerged on the other side.

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary and I'm Wendy College and together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments with guests who are far more interesting than we are. On this week's show sometimes you could be absolutely breezing parenting, you feel like you must really know saying everybody doesn't and then the next minute you are literally cursing yourself how bad you are and how ineffective you've been because, you know, it's falling apart and because we're seeing all of these mistakes.

And don't be fooled by the fact that, oh, you know, that's turned out really well for them. And actually, yeah, in this moment, absolutely flying. But at regular intervals, 90% of the time, it has not been the case. But before all of that... Welcome to another episode of Sweats, Not and Tears. I hope you're all having a better day than I am. I'm having a rubbish day.

Just your average sort of people not doing what they say they're going to do kind of thing. But it resulted in me crying in the Isles of Sainsbury's this morning. So that was really good. Wendell, tell me your day's going better than mine. It's going considerably better than yours because nobody's made me cry yet. Yet being the operative word. Yet it is Friday. Why are Fridays always so stressful?

I don't know. I've got a theory that there's some like full moon shenanigans going on or like Mercury's gone retrograde or I don't know. But yeah, it's not fun. Was anyone kind to you in Sainsbury's or did they all just look at you like you were a mad cow? Two of the pharmacists were quite kind, but half kind, half you nutbag. what's wrong with you anyway i think we have the perfect guest today for helping us put our problems into perspective the antidote the antidote and dishing out loads of good advice because he's uh mr common sense himself welcome mr jeff brazier how are you today so good guys thank you so much for having me um i noticed that it's maybe less common for a male uh guest to come on so i feel a pressure to deliver some sort of value it makes you extra

special yeah it means we really like you it's obviously a privilege uh so yeah thanks for having me now listeners je, if you think Annie is having a morning with her weeping in Sainsbury's, Jeff is having quite a morning and Jeff is somewhere incredibly strange. Tell us, Jeff. Yeah, it's an odd one because I was out and about, you see. So because I live in the sticks, once I'm out and about, the last thing you want to do is venture back home. So then sort of have to leave again so i asked my dentist having had a hygienist appointment earlier on would i please be able to borrow even if it's just a broom cupboard where you keep all of your dentistry stuff can i please get in there and nick a little

bit of your wi-fi for an hour and um they were very very kind and um and have given me the consultation room and uh it's snazzy, comfortable. Most importantly, it's warm. And yeah, it's enabled me to not have to go all the way home. And so that we can imagine exactly where you are, are you sat in one of the lie down chairs, pressing all the buttons and having a bit of a laugh? As I say, I'm not in a dentist chair itself.

That would be amazing. But because of the standard and the caliber of dentistry here um no that chair is literally one in one out um so no the consultation room as I say it's got comfy chairs it's where you sit when you're considering spending a lot of money on stuff that's going to really hurt so um it has to be comfy. Well, we hope this interview will be a bit less painful than going to your average dental appointment. Yeah. Our first question is always,

have there been any sweaty, snotty or teary moments for you this morning? So hygienist doesn't sound very sweaty, snotty or teary. Oh God, I would be sobbing at a hygienist appointment. Yeah, but you were sobbing in bloody Sainsbury's. I cry a lot, don't I? Sorry, carry on. Hold on a minute. Honestly, the most painful aspect. I mean, someone cleaning your teeth.

And by the way, it's the first time I've seen a hygienist and I recommend it. It was pretty snazzy. Now I can't stop feeling my teeth with my tongue because they're like, they're smoother than they've ever been. But yeah, when they said, sorry, we can't control the temperature of the water, it was literally like freezing cold ice water going into my teeth. And I'm 42, so there are teeth in my mouth

that are highly sensitive to cold water. And that was where I had to grip the handles of the chair and really dig in. I was really brave. I got a sticker. Well done. He has to take a Valium before the dentist. Oh, yeah.

I cry when they tip the chair back. Before I even open my mail. I think I might end up asking you a lot of questions today because that sounds worrying. I'm good at other things. I'm good at other things, Geoff. Of course. Right.

So update us. Your boys are big boys now, aren't they? How old are they? 17 and 18. And yeah, they're both towering above me now. It's a really weird phase of the parenting journey because you're starting to see the signs of all of the good work that you didn't realize was good work that

started to shine. And you're like, ah, I'm so glad that I was like that or I'm so glad that I did that. But actually like, let's be honest and let's be real. It also shows you that all the mistakes that you were terrified about making and put yourself under intense pressure not to make. Well, when they get to this age again it reminds you or at least teaches you that those mistakes really don't factor that much because they're you know it's not as if you've broken them or you've you've not given them something you told yourself

you really needed to and all that pressure that I put on myself especially over the last 12 13 years really was unnecessary wow that's incredibly reassuring to hear. But what if we made mistakes that you didn't, Jeff? What if we're bad at it and you're good at it? No, I made all the mistakes. Believe me. You know, especially when you do it on your own and with your partners and stuff. I don't know. It's just that, do you enjoy it?

You know, I think if I could go back, this is the wonderful part of where I'm at with parenting is that I can sort of obviously look back and be a little bit reflective. And I'd say that actually there's very, you'd have to really go some to do something that was particularly damaging or limiting for them. And what we don't give credit,

I don't want to give out the good stuff at the very top of the episode. Yeah, keep listening, people. We're saving the best nuggets that are coming in the last two minutes, okay? But however, like this is pretty big in that you realise that whilst I was like, oh, no, I've got to do this on my own and I'm the only one responsible and no one's there to hold the weight of, you know, the weight of the job with me. Actually, do you know what we never, ever factor in is that I think our children do a little bit of it themselves. In fact, it's probably not even a little bit.

But, you know, when, you know, all throughout the whole process, the children are actually able to make many decisions for themselves and in fact that's what we're actually trying to empower and enable and so you know things that they could hold on to don't decide not to because they work out instinctively that actually this is whilst this is something dad's going on about it's not necessarily something that's relevant for me or you know they can make their own mind up about something that you think could potentially be traumatic however it's you know it is something that they've they're able to either brush off or they're able to to kind of hold um

and protect themselves from because they're growing their own resilience and resourcefulness and we don't factor that in so i would like to go back to to jeff 13 years ago and i would like to say they're going to do a bit of this themselves it's a team effort it's not just you the pressure is not entirely on you and actually you could probably be the worst version of yourself that you're hoping not to be and they'll still be all right because they've got it that's so comforting i know i want that i want that to comfort you and anyone listening is that take the pressure off like why do we do that to ourselves we're terrible to ourselves like when it comes to you know i need to say this i need to tell them that i need to give them that wisdom i

need to give them that knowledge i need to give them the experience that i had when i was a child and actually that's for our benefit that is that is us. So that we feel like we've ticked the boxes that we need to tick. Was I a good enough parent today? Yes, I was because I did A, B and C. Sometimes I think you've got to just be, it's enough for them that you just are. And that sounds a little bit like the sort of thing that Bobby would come out with. My 18 year old who literally thinks he's a philosopher. love it I love an 18 year old philosopher oh brilliant I'm trying I'm trying to guide it like he's not talking shit but he doesn't know how to communicate things in a way that makes it accessible for all oh you're a better human than me Jeff yeah you're a good guy

no he's pissed me off at times where I've actually been incensed by the fact that he's turning around and he's and I'm upset about something with with good justification by the way and he's just trying to tell me that dad you're you're identifying and attaching with those feelings we are formless and I still don't understand what he's saying but I know that it's some good it it's good stuff. Like, because. If only you could understand a word. If only I could decipher it.

What language is this, Bob? Where did you bloody learn it? Because give me some of that. So what are they doing now? Are they, well, is he studying philosophy? What are they up to? Oh, no, no, no. So Bobby, right.

So it's not, is it a job occupation? I don't know. It is a model. So is modeling. Of course it's a job. You've got to show up and do your stuff. Yeah, yeah. But right.

So obviously the pandemic happened. I don't know whether you know. And yeah, that industry pretty much. Wraps overnight. Yeah. It did a bit. Yeah. So it's coming back.

But look, so in between jobs, because obviously he's not working a nine to five daily, he is at least really self-developing nicely. So he's very into his reading, he's very into meditation. How lovely. Oh. It's good to see because I could be into a lot worse stuff. Oh my God. If you told me that my kids would grow up and be into reading and meditation, I would have a party jeff yeah yeah i would feel like i'd won i'm so proud um that he is open to being formless whatever that means that's something he said isn't it that's it is him yeah you're copying you on about yeah i know i am i'm sort of almost being a bit arsey about it

to be honest but yeah he's he's on a good path like i don't worry about him his mental health is in a really great place and we all worry about our children over the last 18 months because again here's another pressure as a parent are my kids all right how do i know they're okay how do i know that the incessant sort of fear-mongering um some of it justified some of it probably over the top has not damaged them and limited them in certain ways and anyway when I look at Bob I can I can sort of see it and just be like uh you are you are you are accountable I can see he's taken full accountability for how he feels and the direction that he's going that's amazing it's a relief and how's Freddie what's going in. That's amazing. It's a relief. And how's Freddie? What's he up to?

Fred's doing an apprenticeship in hospitality. And it's perfect for where he is because he has struggles within the academic environment, if you like. School has been a hardship. I was counting down the days for him to get out of it, as he was and as possibly some of his teachers were too. And now he is. So what, what is he great at? People. Oh my God. The people skills, the, the empathy, the emotional intelligence through the roof.

So he's gonna, he's gonna need to be around lots of people to be part of a team, to be on his feet and to be part of a team to be on his feet and to be you know he can't be sat behind a desk um so so what he's doing at the moment is absolutely perfect for him now at this stage of where he's at and actually since he's been doing it he comes home he's always got a story to tell he's always like got got some excitement around so he's enthused about his day yeah Yeah. He is, but he's learning. He doesn't even know that he's learning.

That's the key. You know, he just knows that he doesn't mind turning up and that's good enough for me. But I know that every day is absorbing and developing and growing more and more. And I love to see it. I think we're going to have to throw some nuggets in there now. What did you do that made them turn out like this?

Tell us some of the tricks. Struggled, made loads of mistakes, put too much pressure on myself, as I've already alluded to. Fretted at how it just seemed like sometimes you could be absolutely breezing parenting. You feel like you must really know saying everybody doesn't. And then the next minute you are literally cursing yourself how bad you are and how ineffective you've been. What have you done wrong?

Because it's falling apart and because we're seeing all of these mistakes. And whilst it's really important for me to say this and make sure everybody understands that what I've just said about where they are now is it's rare. It's rare that on one occasion, I would be able to say that both my children are in a really good place. So the normal reality, if you'd have spoke to me four weeks ago, I wouldn't have been able to have said that. It's all very momentary. And don't be fooled by the fact that, oh, you know,

that's turned out really well for them. And actually, yeah, in this moment, absolutely flying. But at regular intervals, 90% of the time, it has not been the case. And I truly believe, and and again looking back at the journey which is there have been so many worrying times where you're like oh you know i'm really worried about fred or i'm really worried about but they've both had a really good go at self sabotage um not physical um um fortunately but just you know doing things that they know that they shouldn't around people they know they shouldn't be around and and actually a lot of it's quite deep psychologically just

simply because uh when you lose a parent it's it's gonna it's gonna leave a you know it's traumatic ultimately and it's gonna need to take its time for that process to take form and to you know it comes out usually in the form of of mistakes and um of you know of emotion and and and just and just general challenges well a loss means something different every day of life doesn't it like it's not a static thing especially a loss of a parent like a loss of a parent to a five-year-old will feel really different to the loss of a parent to a 50-year-old do you know what I mean it's every day is going to feel different isn't it and I've seen that I guess I've witnessed the roller coaster um that that that it is and um but now again I guess

maybe what I'm seeing and what you're listening to is the fact that they've had 13 years of grief, of grieving, if you like. And maybe when you're patient and you don't notice at the time because we have no idea what it resonates as, what it visually looks like, what it sounds like when your kids are upset. But I guess maybe what I'm seeing is that it comes good in the end. And actually, in some respects, if we're going to dare to sort of spin a positive almost, is that we can say that it's given them some superpowers because of what they've had to go through. And again, referring back to the fact that children bring themselves up to an extent is that they've had to acquire some resilience and some, you know,

some abilities to work out what they need for themselves in order to get to that. So, yeah, I'll never take complete credit for, you know, the fact that it seems like a job well done because I think most of it actually has to fall at their doorstep because of what they've had to do and what they've had to wrestle with. A lot of the time, not actually sharing it with me because they don't want to upset the parent that they've got. You know, it's really common, actually.

Kids, they'll show you in their behaviour and they'll show you in their chaos and in their crisis. But what they won't necessarily do is ever turn around and say, Dad, I'm really upset about Mum. So that would be a lot easier, but unfortunately you don't get the benefit of that. Well, sometimes they might not know that that's what they're upset about as well.

Often, even with kids who haven't experienced such a significant trauma, they can be crying about one thing and you're there as a parent going, well, it's not that big a deal. And eventually you kind of dig into it and you realise it's something completely different, but they didn't even know that they were upset about it. So you must have had lots of that along the way. We're making it up as we go along in parenting

generally. I think we all agree with that. But certainly in grief and in loss, because I might be, I might be bereaved already. In fact, you know, I'd already lost a nan and, you know, I suppose I'd been introduced to what loss feels like, but it doesn't prepare you for anything because every loss is completely unique and actually dealing with a loss of my own compared to actually trying to help two children navigate the loss of the most important person in their life is a completely different job and again I have to refer back to what I what I could have done with knowing or being told at the time is that you don't have to come up with all the answers because actually it's impossible

for you to know what comes next what it should look like what you should say none of those things um will ever be determined you you you make it up as you go along. And a lot of times you don't come up with the right thing, but it's okay because it's always a learning experience anyway. And sometimes you do. Sometimes you exceed yourself, surpass your expectations, and you do. And the times that I think I've succeeded are the times I just – it's a bit of a therapist term, but I held space in that I didn I've succeeded are the times I just um it's a bit of a therapist so but I held

space in that I didn't judge the behavior I didn't judge the outpouring of emotion or I didn't judge the horrible behavior that I might be witnessing because I knew that there's probably a percentage of grief mixed up in what that is um and that that was actually where i really did well and i don't think that actually if you take the grief element out of it and if we're just talking about parenting um i would have to say that that that would be perfectly relevant for that as well can we just not judge the why and the what for and can we just let it be and let it pass and know that that's what's meant to happen and that we all learn from it and that it won't happen again in the same way possibly next time? We don't have to come up with a solution, a conclusion. We don't have to be embarrassed.

We don't have to feel pressure or judgment for ourselves as to whether we're good or bad can it just be yeah i think that's a really valid point i think no one arrives on earth fully formed do they so of course the people who've been around a bit less than the people who've been around a bit longer are going to make mistakes and do things sometimes that we can't possibly fathom but they're just learning how to live life aren't they shit we're all sounding like bobby a little bit um i need to i need to stop this he sounds like my kind of guy uh he's gonna add some value do you know i did a some monday night this week i did a class on navigate in 2022 and that was a local workshop uh i also did one on grief on wednesday night it's amazing that you know people are coming along in good numbers to come and sort of be a part of these things.

But Bobby and Freddie were there on Monday night. And yeah, Bobby sort of interjected a few times and sort of added a little bit of value. And people loved it because we all love to know what our kids are thinking and teenagers thinking generally. It's that connection to that generation. And I think anyone's viewpoint is is always um welcome but yeah to kind of hear him talking maturely and actually making sense again was pretty cool so what about you jeff we've talked a lot about the kids what are you doing right yeah right so look so positive first i'm in a good place i'm i'm a major self-developer and i'll always look for solutions i always look to better my habits and

I'm healthy and I'm happy because I work bloody hard at that. Because my kids are good, I can be good. Every parent will get that. You're only as happy as a parent as your least happy child. On a negative, I would say that the last 18 months have at times been OK, been fine. And sometimes actually, you know, in the first lockdown, I'm sure everyone says this, it was almost like we was granted permission to slow our life down. And there were great benefits to that as long as we remained healthy and everybody that we loved was healthy too. But actually what I've coped with or what I found really difficult is that I don't agree with everything mainstream and I don't agree with our handling of the pandemic. I

don't necessarily agree with the way that the lockdowns were imposed and restrictions and things like that. So actually, for someone who's never really been that interested in politics now, I'm sort of both fascinated and outraged with a lot of the behaviours. Okay, wait, wait, wait, because this fascinates me. Okay, what aspects of it do you think were mishandled or not done right? You know, I'm interested in psychology. It's the reason why I ended up being a coach and an NLP practitioner. And I learned as a kid who had been fostered and taken away from his mum very early on that I guess that I just was fascinated by human behavior generally. completely um surprising that i would look at the psychology of of many of um the rules

and restrictions that were placed on us so a lot of the time it didn't sit well with me from the beginning i i have have um learned through reading um laura doddsworth's book the state of fear that actually there is and there are behavioural psychologists that shape policy literally in every department of government and that I understand that people would expect that it's probably healthy for us to have an element of fear of this virus so that we're not careless. But I believe that we overstepped that mark some considerable distance,

some considerable time ago, and it hasn't stopped. So I take great offence at the fact that they're scaring my nan witless, unnecessarily. Let everybody decide their own sense of risk and of danger and make decisions based on that as opposed to suspending everybody in their limbic brain um which which perpetuates fear and now you've got people even if all the restrictions ended and we said we're going to learn to live with this now and there was no mask wearing there was no limits And we went back to a normal way of life.

People wouldn't be able to because it's so hard to undo the conditioning that has taken place. And I feel like it was done on purpose. I feel like it was done for control. angers me to think that actually that's a form of terrorism for me because you are you are hurting people psychologically in a way that cannot be undone so where do we go from here I think one of the things that we hear so much discussion about on netmums at the moment is people who've got terrified kids or kids who were really isolated through the lockdowns, not being able to go to school, are really suffering the consequences of that. What advice or suggestions with your experience as a coach and all of that would you give to parents who want to try and sort of establish a new normality with their kids? How can we help them get back on an even keel isn't there lots of struggles and lots of ways i can answer that but i think that over compliance

to rules that were not followed by those that set them is potentially an issue it might be the rules and limitations that you are self-imposing that are trapping you within the discomfort or creating a pressure to live a certain way that you know is not fundamentally useful to our mental health or the mental health of our families. Maybe we need to show some flexibility in our thinking. And as much as you've been told that this is the right behavior for the last 18 months, nearing on two years, maybe it's time for us to actually start to think about what is healthy for us first and foremost. You might think, but that's selfish,

Jeff. I think sometimes we've got to be selfish and look after ourselves first in order to be able to then look after what's best for society. I think it's really interesting what you're saying, that the people who imposed the rules were the ones who actually lived with quite a lot of flex. You know, we had Dominic Cummings driving the length of the countryside and we had other politicians switching between homes. And obviously, Boris was partying. Or something like that, yeah. But we, the majority of the UK public lived really rigidly and strictly to the rules. It's interesting, isn't it? Like the people who set the rules are the ones who probably could see

that there were occasions where flex was needed, but we, the ones who had them imposed on us, thought there was no flex to be had at all. Well, what I find really interesting about that scenario is that I think we take it two ways. And you can look at that and you can say, well, they imposed the rules and then they broke them. Now, why did they break them?

Did they break them because they're careless and because they're unruly and ill-disciplined, in which case they shouldn't be anywhere near governing a country? Or you could say, and this is where I landed, well, they're breaking the rules because they don't believe in the rules. And so that I find very difficult to digest again, because, you know, speaking to people about grief regularly as I do and holding this event on Wednesday, where a lot of people turned up that have recently lost loved ones and were not able to either attend the funeral or to go to the hospice or the hospital to go and say goodbye and hold their hand and be with them. Now, things like this are unforgivable and unforgettable. And to think that they did that just suggests to me that actually they imposed these rules on human beings, good people,

that ultimately they never believed in anyway. They knew that, and again, this's where we can get into territory. No, I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert, but let me just say, you know, I think for me, they knew that if they did get COVID, that they were likely to be okay just because of the survival rate that is literally sort of on a par with flu. And, you know, they had the the data these are the people that had the data we we only know what they allow us to know um and i don't love the media and and sort of i

wouldn't trust them as far as i could throw them to be honest um in a sense of how how the data has been reported anyway uh but that's that i'm i don't know whether I've always been cynical, but I'm cynical now. But they had the data available to them, and that was what they were comfortable enough to do. So great, why don't you just let us all be comfortable to do what we wanted to do and what needed to be done at the time. We needed to say goodbye to our loved ones. We needed to hold their hand in their time of need. We needed to attend the funeral so that we could begin that grieving process. But we were denied that. And we were

denied that with them knowing that ultimately this was about control as much as it was anything else. And they were just going to flagrantly abuse those rules that they imposed on us that very day, or the day before the Queen sitting in a you know in a chapel on her own anyway it's disgusting it's disgusting i mean sense can you tell yeah and i think at times i feel that in the insanity and the anger of it all as well i think although i cried in this morning about something completely unrelated i do think there's an element of it of living in this kind of air of of yeah of anger and distrust does nothing good for anyone's mental health now one more thing I think it's really interesting that you just raised uh her majesty

the queen and her having to sit on her own at that funeral which is one of the most tragic sites I think a lot of us have ever seen I always think that the British public relates to you and your boys a bit like we relate to Princes William and Harry like you'll always have this we'll always feel so protective of you and like we want to make you all okay is that a weird thing for you to be on the receiving end of no it's incredibly comforting to know that um to know that people wanted us to do well and we still do we're never gonna let it go no um but i i guess also um it did probably add to why i put a lot of pressure on myself that's no one's fault obviously i take complete responsibility for what my

career was and where it had taken me to that point. And obviously Jade's as well being, you know, everybody knew she was. And so as a result, everybody knew everything. And yeah, it's no, no surprise. And I'm still so proud that that was my instinct at the time to just completely take them out of the spotlight. And that proved, I think, very helpful because, again, you look at him now and Bobby's a modern-day 18-year-old philosopher, if there ever is such a thing, and Fred's doing well in his restaurant and stuff.

And you think, well, you know, this could have been worse. Imagine the pressure that you do see some children of known people and you do think well they could very easily have been affected by the limelight in a in a negative way that might be difficult for them to unravel so so proud of that decision and I'm very grateful that people have always wished us well so you've talked quite a lot. We've all talked a lot about kind of how the last 18 months have affected all of our children. But you've also been really positive about taking the pressure off. And now that you're a dad of two teenagers, grown up boys, to those parents listening who are still perhaps looking after younger kids and maybe it's all a bit more of a struggle. What,

what's the one thing we should all be doing with them this weekend coming? What, what's that thing that makes it that you'd suggest your parenting lessons, Jeff, what's your parenting lesson? Yeah. Glimpse of hindsight, isn't it really it's just because you know you know why grandparents are so bloody good with our kids like annoyingly so sometimes it's just because they get it and what I think that they get is that it's all about giving them your undivided attention so you can be in the same room as them thinking that you're parenting um but you're working you know on your laptop don't get me wrong we all have to multitask like

that's that's just part of the game i get that but if you i think the perspective that i got is that if you just give 30 minutes of undivided attention these are the moments that your children remember they're the moments that your children thrive on. And where you don't really have to be or do anything amazing, you just listen and show them that they are the center of your focus. And I think that that's where self-esteem really, really grows from as far as your children are concerned. And so that they don't ever feel that they're just always second best to the devices that we have to work from, you know, that's, that's definitely a,

that's as relevant now as it ever has been, because we, we are largely working from home. And again, I don't mean to say that, you know, don't worry about work, everyone, just watch your kids build, build things out of Lego.'t mean to say that you know don't worry about work everyone just watch your kids build build things out of lego it's like actually you know can we just can we recognize the importance of setting aside a fraction of your day 24 hours at least 30 minutes of that time to giving them your undivided because you know it's like it's like getting off an airplane and the sun hitting you that feeling of warmth and and feeling special and important and um it's such a joy i wouldn't have known that that's what i was going to come out with but but that is my i think that's

the best answer i can give you to that that. It seems so small, but yet is massive. And also when you're a parent and you know that you've given your children that, then I think it helps safeguard from the dreaded parental guilt that we're all going to put on ourselves anyway. To know that, no, I gave my child undivided attention on a regular basis. There's time in every day. There has to be time in every day. And if there isn't, get up earlier, I think, or do less. And yeah, that's what I'm going to go with.

It's a good one. And for anyone who doesn't know, actually, what Jeff's just recommended is backed up by lots and lots of research papers which show that despite whether parents work whether parents work long hours whether parents don't live in the same households all kinds of other factors parents who do that regularly end up raising kids who fare far better psychologically than those who don't so thank you for sharing that Jeff now do you think either of the boys, well, I'm interested in your mini philosopher,

will follow you into a life of coaching or presenting on TV or radio or podcasts or any of those things that you do? Or do you think they're going to completely forge their own way forward? I think if the two boys could merge their key kind of characteristics, then they would be like Tony Robbins, I'm sure.

But funny enough, Bobby, he's got it all worked out for himself, or at least he thinks he has, and he's on his way to kind of, you know, make it. He's got a great relationship with himself, but he's not ready to share it with others. And I'm not sure he knows how to communicate it with others so that other people benefit from it as well. So that will be the next step of his journey.

Potentially, if he wants to, you know, not everybody wants to help everybody. Sometimes I think it's, and I agree, it is right to start with yourself first. And just because you're good at saying it doesn't mean to say that that's a vocation that you have to sort of go into. But I think that, you know, he's definitely got something that would be useful to others because I've seen it in action. Freddie, he's got the heart for it in terms of he would love the satisfaction of helping others. That's why actually we register him with our local hospice for him to volunteer there.

Wow. And he, yeah, I mean, actually his apprenticeship doesn't leave him sort of much time or many days where he might be able to do too much. But I just think that that might be a really interesting exploration for him in using those talents that he's got that as I say that that empathy that is literally coming out of his ear holes. Does that come from you or his mum who's the empathetic one? I think both of us would have been quite aware of our environment and I think that that skill comes from actually having a bit of a tough upbringing, doesn't it? I think that when you're a child growing up in, let's say,

an abusive relationship in terms of your parents, you're on guard, basically, very much. Your intuitiveness would heighten as a result. And I think that stays with you for the rest of. So Freddie, for his experience at Loss, he would really appreciate when people would check in with him and ask him how he is. So naturally, he would also then be aware of when other people might need the same, you know, the same service, if you like, the same kind of treatment. I don't know. I don't think it's really easy to to nail down i don't think we need to know

i think actually it's just that this is part of his um part of his makeup and he may or may not choose to to use it professionally um socially he might you know he might do nothing with it whatsoever but um it's just lovely to see and i think as parents we always love to talk about what what our kids might become and the truth is it's got absolutely nothing see. And I think as parents, we always love to talk about what our kids might become. And the truth is it's got absolutely nothing to do with us whatsoever. We might like to try and force them into a direction. And usually when your teenagers don't know what they want to do, you do have to sort of step in and suggest things and even instigate things.

From experience, I know it's best just to let them get on with it themselves because you probably need to it's like finding the right partner isn't it you know that that that one about kissing loads of frogs before you meet the print yeah wendy and i did a fair share of that back in the day didn't we went there were a few there were more than a few frogs and quite a lot of toads if we're honest i bet all kinds of amph amphibians. That is the best word for it. Yeah, oh dear. But yeah, with work, I know certainly with Fred,

there's confidence issues. He's not the most confident and I think that this is the right thing at the right time. So I just step back and I just kind of oversee in a way that I hope he doesn't feel he's interfering. But I know that what he's doing right now is what he's meant to be doing. So where do you go from here? You know, what's next? Not just after the dentist, but what's next for Jeff?

Two parts to the answer in that I've become a life coach, an NLP practitioner literally seven or eight years ago. But as much as I've used it with my own private practice and I get a great deal of satisfaction from being a part of people's development. I've never really done many workshops like I did this week. And sometimes I think, you know, timing is key. I mean, I don't mind telling you I've been having therapy for the last four or five years now, real ongoing process,

much of that caused probably by the childhood and by the fact that um that the process that i'm undertaking is called reparenting and it's where there is still a little jeff frozen within my psyche um that that that used to interfere with relationships because he just couldn't do commitment. He gets to three years with someone and he'd basically just like, he'd be all of a sudden paralyzed with fear and he'd need to get out of the relationship. And a common theme for men generally, I probably wasn't worth meeting until I was about 37. I might go for a lot of men, to be honest. And there'll be a lot of women cackling about, oh yeah, yeah, I get it.

But that's just me being honest. men to be honest and there'll be a lot of women cackling about now oh yeah yeah i get it but that's just me being honest but i feel my point is my i feel like the time is now um especially with the last 18 months is that it's not about do i want to use my qualifications and life experience and platform to help others it's that i have to do it now. Yes, I enjoy it. Like you can imagine speaking for two hours and facilitating a group of 50 people talking about their loss is quite draining. But I see it as a social responsibility for me now. I see it as this is what I must do.

There is satisfaction and enjoyment that I get from it. Usually I'm pretty protective of my time and my balance because that's what i've learned you know is key to keeping a good mental health um but i i now know that it's it's it's time it's time for me to start stepping forwards and facilitating lots of people feeling better either you know from a from a practical mental health point of view or it might be it might be because of loss it might be because of anxiety i just i know that i can make a big difference so now is the time for me to do that the second part the answer really is about phases of of life and this is wrapped up in parenting

really because when you start to see your children actually um start to kind of take the baton off of you slowly but surely and that is a process and a transition that probably lasts for years it's not a simple here you go lads and them taking it and off they go but they need me less and less um i'm able to recognize that and give myself permission to be needed less and less which i think is is is really key for a lot of us. Very hard. We find it hard to let go. Yeah, really hard.

We find it hard to let go of our parenting responsibilities. But now what I'm reclaiming is the right for me to start to explore who I am, what I want moving forwards, and actually to start not repairing, but to start really instigating the growth of relationships that over the last 12, 13 years had to go on the back burner a little bit. Just because my way of coping was to get my head down and make my world a bit smaller so that I knew I had the best chance possible of, of being okay and doing the job that I told myself I had to do. So now it's a lot about connectedness.

That is what I really need to work on. I get a bit of a thing where, for whatever reason, I find it hard to call my friends. I'll be on a long journey to a football match for BT or something and I'll sit there and think this would be an ideal time to catch up with people. And I find it hard to call them sometimes. And, and that is because I lost the ability to, to, to do that. So, you know, to a lot of people, that's like, wow, that's,

that's second nature to us. In fact, you couldn't stop me from calling my friends and having, you know, long conversations. But, you know, I speak to my therapist about it and you wonder whether there's an element of, is this little Jeff keeping a safe distance from people just because he's learned that people can hurt you, people can walk out on you? Is it just a sort of like an echo from that? And again, I don't really need to know exactly what it is and why it is. I

just need to know that that's what I really want to work on because I've got wonderful people in my life that I was closer to, that less so now, that stuck with me and now is when I give back because most of them have got young kids and this is where Uncle Jeff really kicks in and starts to really play a part and interesting. You know, someone loves you when they really take an interest in your children. And I've been on the receiving end of that from lots of wonderful people. And now I'm going to be that person that makes people feel like, well, Jeff's really supporting us. Jeff's really sort of playing a part in our kids' lives. And that's a really wonderful way to build wonderful relationships moving forward.

I'm liking this. There's little Jeff, there's uncle Jeff. What other Jeffs are there? There's lots of Jeffs. We've all got a million hats. Actually, don't ask him that. Ask him the other question. It's poor Sod.

We've asked him a lot already. I've got two more questions to ask you, but really all I want to say is, could you just clone yourself? Because if every man was like you wouldn't the world be a nicer place when don't you agree there would have been fewer amphibians that's for sure let me be just let me be fairer to some of the guys listening so that you know that might be ready to tweet me sort of angry messages about you you're stitching us up

mate yeah thanks you've shown us right up, Jeff. Yeah, but no, it's not, you know, the reality is this again, let me tell you what my wife must have been through in terms of, you know, I could be the warmest, most loving individual, but if something triggered me to, you know, feeling something that I might've felt when I was young, then all of a sudden I take my emotions out of the room. And, you know, you might not be able to access them for 24 hours, sometimes longer. Now, you know, part of the therapy that I've had

for the last three, four years have helped me to stay in the room and to keep them in the room and not retreat to a safe place, as it were. But that's difficult. That would have been something that all of my ex-partners would have had to have struggled with me. They would have found that really, really, it's really hard to be with someone that's not just consistent. And I wasn't able to give my partners that. And so I'll always, i don't sort of bump into any of them ever to be honest but i'll do the first thing i would do with a few partners is just if i saw them in the street i'd apologize to them straight away and just say that was that must have been so

hard i'm so so sorry that i wasn't able to be the person that you wanted me to be consistently so you know it's no it's you know i have been difficult in some respects. And that's part of just, you know, what I love is just owning, owning your mistakes, owning the authenticity of growing up and of, I guess, growing beyond the issues that childhood very often bestows upon you. You know, I don't want to make excuses for them. I don't want to blame them on other people. I want to take responsibility for them.

That's what going to therapy is, that accountability in itself. Sticking with it and committing to that journey is accountability in itself. And I just want to keep refining and improving so that my wife can get the best version of me always. My kids can have the best version. But also it's a lot easier for me. It's a lot, lot easier when life is just a bit more effortless, when there's less drama and I've enjoyed getting to that point. Okay. Before I get to the last two questions, just one more, one more,

one more question on this. What made you go into therapy? Right. So knowing that I was probably probably gonna lose the relationship that I was in and that it was you know it was a pattern I knew that a lot of that I think it's timing as well is that I I must have been uh 37 at the time um and obviously I just got to the point where I knew that I could recognize that certain things triggered me and that it must have had a lot to do with my childhood. I can't. I couldn't. I say I can't. I can now. But I couldn't take unfairness and I couldn't deal with not being validated. So if I'm upset and if you can't turn around and say to me, look, I'm sorry that you're upset. This is just my opinion. This is the way it, look, I'm sorry that you're upset. This is just my opinion. This is the way it is, but I am sorry that you're upset.

If you couldn't do that, which my wife couldn't in the early stage of our relationship until she had the therapy to be able to work through that herself, then I would struggle with it. You might as well have an explosive in front of me, like a landmine. It's like you're stamping on the landmine. And I would just, I would, it's not turning into little Jeff, but it's just, it's really odd how it works. It's like little Jeff would almost, he would click into gear and take over.

So, you know, that reaction would not be befitting of a 37-year-old. It would be befitting of a five-year-old that's suspended in that terror, in that crisis that I would have been going through at the time. And yes, so those are things that I found difficult. Now, I can handle it if someone doesn't validate me. However, I wouldn't choose it. So if my wife didn't do the work that she's done, and I'm very grateful for her to go on that journey as well. Because in the early days, she just used to think, no, it's just you, Jeff. You're the one that needs to do the work.

But our relationship has grown and has persisted for eight years simply because she was willing to do that. If it wasn't for us both doing the work no way would we be together today so there's a real i we're very proud of ourselves for for committing um to the work and um and that's why we're still here well hats off to you right i'm going to ask you the most mundane question on planet earth after everything you've just shared yeah je, what's for tea and who's cooking? Fred's at work till late. Bob will be home. Right, so we do HelloFresh. Is it good?

Yeah, I'll tell you where it's been good is that the kids have to end up following recipes and making themselves good food instead of chucking something in the microwave or just eating rubbish or eating cereal three times a day. It does make you do better, doesn't it? It makes you do better. It does. And then you come together because obviously if we're all home, it's like, right, come on, let's make dinner. And then you're all, you know, it really encourages that family

togetherness, like in not just mealtime, but actually in the preparation of the meal. In the making of it, yeah. And the boys are learning how you make food from vegetables and lentils and things that are better for you than others. So actually it's a big plus point, to be fair. That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. Right, Wend, last question from you.

Jeff, you have to imagine that it's bedtime. Take yourself back to when the boys were little imagine that you're tucking them into bed and they can't sleep and sing us the lullaby that you would have sung them from the dentist

make sure the whole waiting room can hear this is embarrassing but I'm going to do it because I know people are I'm going to do it because I know people are... I'm going to hum something, but not sing it. All right, we'll guess. You hum it, we'll guess it. We all know this. Ready?

Right, we're listening. It's just there. Here we go, here we go. Do-do-do. Do-do-do. Do-do-do. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,. Like every now and again in the car, I'd just be like, I'm going to listen to Pure Imagination. Yeah, you're making me want to go and listen to it now.

But also Cheer Up Charlie, you'll be okay. What a song that is as well. It's a lovely, Cheer Up Charlie. Yeah. I love it. Love that. Yeah, nice. Oh, Jeff, don't go.

Let's just stay and chat all day. Seriously. I think you're, you're the guest that I don't want to go the most. Sorry. All the others we've had. That is a compliment. Thank you for taking me. No, thanks for taking me down memory lane. I have a very important question to ask and that is in Sainsbury's this morning. Yeah. What products was it that they didn't have that made you feel like

I can't cope with today if it's not in my trolley? It was a prescription and I'd been to three pharmacies and it was the fourth pharmacy and they said, sorry, we don't have it. And I was just like,

I need to get on with my work. I need to do that. I need to, I need to, I need to, I need to. And that rash just isn't going to clear up, is it, without it? It's not. That rash just isn't going to clear up Is it without it? It's not, that itch isn't going to go away And listeners, there we leave you There we go Bye Jeff

Bye Jeff, we love you Jeff Bye Wendy, bye Annie Don't go changing Jeff Cheer up Charlie Bye