The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep71: The 'Unmumsy Mum' Sarah Turner on why it's taken four years to write her first novel

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

Listen as Sarah Turner explains the learning curve of writing her first novel, and what she's worked out along the way.

This episode is sponsored by the NHS. Now, a hot topic on our Netmums forum is the COVID-19 vaccine and whether it's okay for pregnant women to have it. Lots of you are asking for the facts and that's something we've got plenty of. For example, here's one. Between May and October last year, 96% of pregnant women who were admitted to hospital with COVID-19 symptoms were unvaccinated. You can book your vaccine online or find a walk-in centre at

nhs.uk forward slash COVID vaccination. Now, on with the show. You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary and I'm Wendy College and together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments with guests who are far more interesting than we are on this week's show my publicist from the publisher at the time was like what is wrong with you like what what like what's happened you've just sat in front of 250 people had this chat told lots of funny stories it was really fun and you've met everybody afterwards and you're really relaxed and then somebody puts a camera on and you're like you've gone gone to pot. And I was like, I can't help it.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not made for telly or stuff. But before all of that. Sweaty, snotty, teary gang. How art thou? Do you remember when we all said that when we were about 14? Weirdos. Anyway, I hope you're all all right. And managing this whole retrograde Pluto business like the bosses that you are.

Yes, it is a thing. I've moved into the renovation house with himself and the kids and it's carnage. I'm living in a permanent state of anxiety. So I'm going large on the self-care this week. Wendell, what's happening with you? Well, you've just explained. I can't even say it. Mercury retrograde. No, not Mercury this time.

No, Pluto. Pluto happens like once every 600 years or something. I'm just a bit miserable, really, which is rubbish for everyone I live with. There's no reason. And it's not like you. You're the human ray of sunshine that everybody needs. Well, I'm being a Mardy cow this week.

So just be grateful that you none of you are my husband and I'm gonna start by saying I know this will go out afterwards but today the day we're recording ladies and gents is world book day. Yeah the worst day in any parent's calendar. And I had three blinding rows with my 10-old this morning about my frankly appalling face painting skills. You've all shit a face paint, be honest. I have, I have. She's Oswald the Exploding Cat. I don't even know what book that's from.

But anyway. What does Oswald look like and what did you make her look like? He's bright green and stripy. And I made her look like some sort of really bad camo kind of thing. Oswald the camo cat. Yeah introduce the guest please. Who invented World Book Day because like it's way beyond our skills, way beyond our skills. A you've got to make them read some goddamn books, B then they have to make a big decision about who they're going to be.

And it has to take into account all kinds of factors like who their mate's going to be, who their mate was last year. What will make them actually look good as opposed to a bit weird. Then you've got to either buy it or create it. I bought and then received lots of judgy looks from other parents who were like,

oh, you bought yours, did you? We made ours. And then you've actually got to execute it on a morning, a morning, which is always the worst time of day. I actually think it was invented by Sadist. I'm going to introduce our guest and see what she thinks. Yeah, let's do that. So let's see who her kids went as. Lovely, lovely Sarah Turner, better known to many of you as the un-mumsy mum. I bet you hate World Book Day too.

Good morning, guys. Happy World Book Day. Happy. I sent two of my three children to school in their skeleton Halloween costumes for Funny Bones this morning. Love Funny Bones I love that book. Neither of the kids are even really that big a fan of the book but we read it last night so I kind of was like oh look what you could be. Classic world book

they move there. I knew I had I knew I had skeleton stuff knocking around in a bag somewhere. So I was like, that is what you will be. And the 10 year old has dressed up in a football kit from a book, Jamie Johnson, I want to say, which is about a footballer. And I just let him get on with it. He's passed the face painting stage. So, yeah, but it was raining. My 10 year old went in his own clothes and I was like, it's World Book Day. He's like, yeah, I'm a random kid in a book. I was like, excellent.

He could be a muggle. That's what I said. If they want to go as themselves in their own clothes, they can just say, I'm a muggle from Harry Potter. Like, there's no, yeah, minimal effort really from our side. And also because it was raining and we walked to school, the skeleton face paint was looking quite sinister. It was more like the joker by the time they got to the playground but we just yeah our head teacher is very lovely and she gives the caveat that you can go in something you'd like to cuddle up and read a book in so at least half and

you're allowed to go in your pajamas so at least half the school turned up this morning in pajamas and onesies because mum had obviously gone, you're wearing your bloody onesie. I think she deserves a medal. And I think every school needs to adopt the same attitude because it's about supposed to be about reading, not about ridiculous costumes that stress everybody out. Right. Agreed. Anyway, I'll start a campaign about that next year. So any sweat, snot or tears in your house so far today? Yes. So there were tears during the face painting. Of course.

Because Wilf, who's four, wanted face paint exactly as the picture he'd shown me, but didn't want me to touch his eyes, which was problematic because in the picture the eyes had face paint on so we had a little bit of a toing and froing about about that um but yeah there's that I mean I'd say it's a rare day that somebody doesn't cry in our in our house there's a lot of crying I was thinking about the day thinking I wonder how old they'll be when we

have a day when no one cries. Yeah, I don't know. And then it would just be you crying, maybe. I don't know. Because they're not crying. They don't need me anymore. They're gone. They don't need me. So how old are the boys now? They are 10, 7 and 4.

So you're just out of the kind of really cold facey cold face and now you're in the kind of like there's no toddler tantrums there's no toddler tantrums and I don't know this is probably I mean I I overshare for a living but also my husband is booked in for the snip also so there is we're definitely out of the baby and toddler uh stage so I feel I'm like relieved but also there is a little bit of me that's like oh because we'll start school in September and then that's kind of that level that level completed um so didn't James take a break from his career to do more parenting yeah and while you're working so then what will he do will he go back to work or work a bit more so he works part-time so he's a civil servant he works three days a week now

and has done pretty much since Wilf was born so we did share parental leave for the first time with Wilf so I'd done the maternity leaves for the other two but then by the time I had Wilf I was self-employed so there was no there was no nine months to take. Nobody pays you. So James's employer were very good about that. So it was I think I had like three months off and then handed the baton over to him. And he looked after Wilf. And, you know, we really excelled ourselves with Wilf. He's like the other two on steroids so um I mean it's no surprise that he was on the phone to the doctor saying make make this stop not again um but yeah so he now

works three days a week I don't I really don't want him to go back to work full-time because um selfishly somebody having um working fewer hours just works in terms of school pickups and drop-offs and illnesses and you know there's a week doesn't go by without there being some kind of disaster not to mention the recent plague that we've been living in so um you know it's kind of I like I like that he's part-time um so fingers crossed I don't think it's possible for a family of four or five to exist without some levels of insanity if both parents work full-time it's just because there's all the stuff all of the can you sign this form so that this one can go to a trip and have you baked for pancake day and or what you know there's just always something I think I don't know how people who but you both work full-time Annie are you insane yeah

you are it was insane when I was working in an office but actually now post-covid and that we haven't really gone back to the office and we work from home makes it so much more manageable because it's just hours of the day not trekking about that really really helps that was just such a gross waste of time like life admin can be done in the time that you used to trek about and do you know what I mean there's so much parenting admin though isn't there like you do it is a full-time job even if you park well book day, it's like all the clubs and booking lunches. And like you said, school trips and spellings and, you know. Times table box, does anybody? Yeah.

Oh, God. Where's the, what's my sign on? What's my sign on? I don't know. So are the boys aware of, you said you overshare for a living, which I think is brilliant, but are the boys aware of that now? Do they know that we know what they're like? Yeah, yeah. So Henry definitely does.

So Henry at 10 has had, it doesn't happen very often, but every now and again, Henry will kind of look at me curiously. You know, like somebody's seeing you for the first time. He will look at me curiously and go know, like somebody's looking, seeing you for the first time, he will look at me curiously and go, so and so said that his mum said that you're famous. And I have to go, it's not fame, Henry, it's like having some kind of, like having a presence in a small corner of the internet, like the parenting sphere, you know, it's like Instagram, it's Facebook, whatever I said, it's like social media, fame, for want of a better sphere you know it's like instagram it's facebook or whatever i said it's like social media fame for want of a better word but it's like i was trying to explain to him like it's not like you know it's not like being a celebrity but we were at uh creely

adventure park and somebody came up and asked me if they could have a selfie and it blew henry's mind he was like what is going on but he's not quite at the mortified by it stage but i reckon give it a couple of years and he'll be like oh you're so you're so embarrassing what would you do if they said if one of them said I want you to take all my pictures down I would take them down yeah I would if they if they said I don't want to be in this like now like Henry features less and less on my page um it's much more the other two and I would there's so much stuff that I wouldn't um share of Henry's yeah there's so much stuff honestly it would be content gold and it is just completely off limits you just can't think oh no I'd love to share that all the

time if I if if I'd remained kind, I mean, can you imagine at some point in the not too distant future I'm going to have three teenage boys and none of that will be Instagrammable. But if it had been like an anonymous blog, then obviously you could talk more freely about the challenges. But I think even that backfires, like the whole Julie Myerson, you know, she used to write an anonymous column in the Guardian Weekend about her family life and that all really backfired and it's so it's just it's a whole uncharted territory isn't it really the whole like

because you were you very much led the charge I feel on the kind of you know warts and all parenting via social media thing which was so liberating for all of us gave us all a kind of, you know, warts and all parenting via social media thing, which was so liberating for all of us, gave us all a kind of an outlet for the not so great moments that we really, really needed. But yeah, it is untrusted territory now that the kids are older, isn't it? And you've got to negotiate that. Okay, what do we share? What do we keep private?

How do you do that? Do you talk to James about it? Do you talk to Henry about it? Do you just make up the rules as you go along it must be difficult it's definitely making up the rules as we go along because as you said there's no there's no guide we're kind of trailblazing it there's no there's no there we can't really we can't really see or predict what's going to happen in the future but for me it's kind of um you know most of most of stuff that 10 year old boys do and say um is hilarious but it's probably more

stuff I would share with friends and family than I would share with you know some of the conversations you have especially when it comes up to kind of like puberty and stuff and when they start learning swear words um I mean some of it is just is just like hysterically funny but not what I you know I'm not gonna I'm not gonna boomerang it and uh broadcast it on the broadcast it on the internet it rightly or wrongly I've kind of always felt that my toddlers are like it's a bit more like fair game because I feel like toddlers toddlers are universal right everybody's you could pick up a toddler and put it in a household and a three or a four-year-old

are behaving like a three or a four-year-old. And Henry now, actually, at 10, will laugh at photos and videos of things he did when he was two or three. He's not embarrassed because he's like, well, I was like two or three, so it's fine. But yeah, there's honestly not an awful lot I feel like I can share about them

as they're getting older, which is why I made the decision not to write any more nonfiction. I was about to say. This is exactly where we were headed next. So hence the novel. Exciting. Yes. Scary? Was it scary making the leap from writing about what's happening in your kitchen to actually dreaming something up yeah it's honestly it has been you know I generally am not a fan of the word or the term journey because I always feel like it's a little bit x-factor montage you know at

the end when they're like we've been on a journey but um not the writing of the novel uh it's been an absolute roller coaster like from being so excited about writing it to getting stuck in to having various points during the writing process but I just didn't think I could do it I really nearly gave up but one stage and actually had a heart-to-heart with my husband where I was like I've bitten off more than I can chew and I found the thing that's going to defeat me like I'm not good enough for this I can't do it I'm not gonna it was like you know the what like the worst imposter syndrome ever but like just you know a beefed up version of that and um and yeah my first draft um my editor basically said you know um thank you so much for this good good try um so when you start it again no yeah that was a hundred thousand words

i can't bear this i think i'm gonna need to lie down hold on yeah my editor is the cleverest like most amazing person ever i love her to bits and I totally trust her judgment and basically my first draft was just absolute tripe it was awful stop it of course it wasn't no it honestly it really was I will never read that again I'll like who made the decision did she say to you let's have her and make you pull the plug or did you decide with James it's just crap I've got to start again no no they I submitted what I thought was a reasonable stab at my first draft and got and got although I didn't I actually didn't think it was brilliant but I also thought I don't have any experience in this so maybe it's one of those things where you think it's really bad actually actually it's really good

it was not good it was I don't think I could come back from that I'd still be in a clinic yeah there was there was a letter it was an editorial letter and it was really detailed notes honestly they're so brilliant and it was just like a paragraph of like you know well done you've done it you've written you know you've written a novel and then like four pages of all the reasons why it wasn't working and basically the long and short of it was we really like your writing, but we don't like what you've written at all. But was it the story, the plotting?

Yeah, so the plotting is a bit of a problem for me because planning is not my strong point. So I just, I dive in and get really excited and carried away. And actually it soon became apparent that they're really, you know, the problem with the plot was that there wasn't really a plot. It was just lots of people. There's lots of conversations, lots of chatting. And dialogue is so hard. Dialogue's the hardest. It's weird. And actually from that first draft, so I wrote the published book is my fourth draft of the book.

Wait, what happened to two and three? So they were just, there was a lot of dropping oh and then I got to the stage there was like a stage where I couldn't I could barely write like 10 words a day I just had the word count on and I was thinking that if I remove a hyphen that will help because that will like bump it up a bit today um and then at the end of draft three I got to the point where I'd done 10 to 15,000 words too many. It was like something clicked. There was a point at which the plot started to take shape. I had really good feedback from a draft and I was just like, actually, I do think I might actually have this after all.

It's going well. So it was just like a muscle that needed exercising. It's like training for a marathon. You just needed to go a bit further, train a bit harder. Yeah, it just I just hadn't written and, written you know I just hadn't written a novel before and so the first draft was really should have been like sort of when you have a go in private you know like unfortunately by you know I'm sort of under contract so you know I had to have something to show you for it and now I mean obviously I can look back and kind of laugh, but I read, you know, after that first draft, I had no confidence that I was going to be able to do it. That must have been a huge thing to turn around in yourself. How did you do that?

I had to take two weeks off. I couldn't look at it. I had to take two weeks off. And I never not dramatic so James is like really calm doesn't like fly off the handle about anything I like read that and then I was like right then and he's like what are you doing I'm like well I'm on LinkedIn jobs obviously so that he had about two weeks where I was looking for jobs and I wasn't trying to overreact I just in my head I was like I've proven to myself I can't do it and every you know everyone know, everyone agrees. So this isn't going to happen, is it? I felt like I'd written quite a decent blog that had taken off and got traction and I'd had these books from it and that my luck had run out and it was time to get back to the real world. That's how I felt. And then I reread the letter that my editor had sent.

And actually it read differently the second time around that level of defense defensiveness where I was like what she all she had said was like you know it isn't working but this glimmer here between these characters you need to make more of that so when you rewrite it do this and it might be better if you did this rather than this and this needs to come earlier because everybody's going to be bored by this point so you need to bring this bit of action forward and it was really constructive and really helpful and then I was just like right I need to put my big girl pants on and do it again and thank god I did because I'm so so pleased with the final version so I'm glad I didn't throw the towel in because I don't think I'd ever have got over it. Like I would have felt disappointed forever. No, of course you wouldn't. I think life's greatest satisfactions

are made of the moments we put our big girl pants on. Yes. Very philosophical for a Thursday morning. But seriously, it's true. Like Sarah just said, if she'd given up, then she never would have known what she was capable of and she'd never felt the pride that she must feel now holding that published book in your hand.

Yeah. That must be an amazing feeling. It is. And because I know that the first couple of drafts weren't very good, I can see the difference to the final one. So I don't have that, you know, I don't, I'm quite, I'm confident that I've done as good a job as I could have done. Not everybody's going to like it because that's just life.

But I'm happy with it. I'm really happy with it. Now, back to the COVID-19 vaccine. We want everyone to have a healthy pregnancy. But unfortunately, we know that being pregnant puts you at greater risk of getting seriously ill with COVID-19. And sadly, that's not all. Getting COVID in pregnancy could also cause complications, including your baby being born prematurely. The best way to protect yourself and your baby is by having the COVID-19 jab. The good news is you don't need to wait until

your baby arrives to have your vaccine or booster. It's safe to have at any stage of your pregnancy. You can book in at nhs.uk forward slash covid vaccination now on with the show one of the things that keeps coming up is how funny you are i think for me your success is due to the fact that you take these really everyday candid moments but then make them really funny and i think it's interesting that they want or you'd said you were going to deliver a funny book and and your publishers wanted that to be part of it. Yeah. Would we ever see Unmumsy stand up? Like, could it happen?

I don't think it could happen. And there are several reasons for that. I do. I do. One is that I'm really uncomfortable with, like, being on stage, which is probably a little bit of a sticking point. I'm also terrible at being filmed for anything. I this thing I don't I need to get over it I seriously need to get over it but I'm not good when it comes to PR and marketing and stuff um for my books um I'm fine I love doing podcasts radio chats all that sort of stuff as soon as

somebody puts a camera in my face this like other version of me shows up that isn't even me but I can't stop her from um taking over she's like really wooden she's like a rabbit in the headlights and for some reason my arms just get really long they just go longer they're like they're like I've got long arms anyway but I don't know what to do with them so they're just like and I've actually I can't remember what event it was but I did an event once and they wanted to and it was the actual live event so being on a live stage I don't mind if it's like a chaired in conversation with type thing really fun no bother but as soon as they then went to film a little segment afterwards um like my publicist from the publisher at the time was like what is wrong with you? Like what, what, like what's happened? You've just sat in front of 250 people, had this chat, told lots of funny

stories. It was really fun. And you've met everybody afterwards and you're really relaxed. And then somebody puts a camera on and you're like, you've gone to pot. What is, I can't help it. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not made for telly or stuff like that so I think that might you know I can't imagine a I can't imagine like a stage or a tv career I was gonna say I reckon you could easily be a comedy writer then yeah I would love to do that that would be that would be an absolute dream come true um to yeah to do some to do some script writing maybe and maybe in the future where do you see yourself in five years what's the un-mumsy plan well I'm under contract for another novel so it was a two book deal so I've just started writing another one um and we can and we can imagine how good the first draft is gonna be I don't know I have this it's not even just about work you must have this don't

you think in life you always you always have that thing of you try you tell yourself you're going to live in the moment but you always have that thing of where your brain goes oh well when when we get to this point or when this happens it will all be better and when you know and I genuinely thought once I'd written one novel um I would like I would know I would know what I was doing and already I feel that crippling self-doubt that I can't do another one I'm like I can't but it is just self-doubt I'm sure it is I'm sure you're good at it now I'm sure you're fine I hope so I've definitely learned some lessons so I'm not steaming ahead quite as sort of gung-ho with the first draft because you know

I've been burned before have you you made a plan? Yes. Have you got the post-it notes in front of you like Katie? Yeah, I've done a post-it plan. But I am, I'm not, I'm really not very, I'm not very patient with planning. I start planning and I think, well, something will happen here. You know, there'll be a beginning and a middle and an end and it will all be fine. And it will be fine.

I have, I have, I have kind of confidence that the next novel will get written but I think there's going to be some you know there'll be some hairy points along the way where I throw all my toys out the pram and say I'm not I'm not doing this anymore and go go on indeed.co.uk and look at jobs so Annie was talking about what the next five years possibly has in store and it's obviously not stand- up and it's not going to be stand i mean i say that novel yeah no another novel another novel has to happen yeah for sure no more babies definitely no more babies no that the final nail in that coffin's going in very soon so yeah poor james poor james i'm not sure he'd like you talking about it as nails, if I'm honest.

It's a laser. It's a laser nowadays. It's all fine. A laser nail. Because I often get messages from people that say, if I dare to post anything kind of slightly nostalgic, like, oh, I can't believe they were ever this little, I will get like a hundred message requests.

They're like, time for another one. And so, you know, I know it's not anybody's business and it's nobody's business to ask, but I did say to James, like, I do feel like it would just, you know, it would be quite helpful that people know that we're not broody because it's just a question I don't have to, you know,

I can just field that one question. And I said, but I won't talk about it if you don't want me to. And he was like, I don't care. Like, I don't want any more kids. You can tell them. And I was like, all right, well, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to be Instagram live in it.

I was just, you know, saying. Do you know what? Once in the pub, one of my mum friends, I won't name her here, was a little worse for wear and started showing us all pictures of her husband's appendage after said laser nail and we I can't look him in the eye anymore but wait why would you have photos of it because it was quite bruised and quite and she was like look at this so um yeah don't let James hear this it's fine by the time James hears this it will it will be done that that you know that

that will have happened wish him the very best of luck from us is that one of the worst bits about is there a what are the worst bits I guess of by being the un-mumsy mum is it that kind of constant oh you're gonna have another baby oh you're pregnant oh and the judgment or is it I I the worst thing I think is um when you upset somebody like if ever I've managed to upset somebody with something that I've said or done um it's an it's an awful feeling and generally what would upset someone oh it's it's because it's the whole thing of you know you never know what somebody else is going through do you so somebody might if I'm I feel like you probably know what you're getting if you follow if you follow me but say I've

had a particularly hard day with the kids and I'm really quite ranty about them and you know my hashtags go from the hashtag blessed to hashtag stressed you know um yeah like get me out of here it's like I did it was like in the pandemic I did a I did a post about how it felt like I was in big brother living in the big brother house but with my kids and I didn't like any of my housemates and nobody would let me in the diary room to get out yeah um that's exactly what it felt like yeah and you know I I always know that there will then but you know you will get the well at least you can have children oh do you get a lot of that or you're really lucky that you um that you get to spend time with them because I work a 759 hour week and have it's hard though because you can't say anything if you go you know so

whatever you say is going to offend somebody Wendy you're being too nice I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here I actually really dislike when people are like that because we have to be allowed to vent you have to be oh we do we would all have nervous breakdowns we seriously would i have i have in the past been like you know for me it very much depends on the tone so i'm not um i'm not against people messaging me and telling me their why they have taken issue with something that i've posted because i feel like but then don't follow you if i know i mean i unfollow the unfollow button is there i don't follow you if I know I mean like the unfollow button is there I don't mind it's it depends it depends massively for me on the tone so if somebody messages me and says what you said or how you said that um this is how it's made me feel and this is why I don't mind that at all

because I feel like you know they you don't that it might be like the biggest thing that's going on in their life and it and what seeing my story of me kind of boomeranging a tantrum is like the final straw and they just needed to let it out and I don't mind that and actually sometimes I've had like a conversation with people where they then come back and gone yeah do you know what I'm sorry I've I I'm having it and so that's fine it's the ones that are more directly kind of like you don't deserve your kids or um I don't I've had a look on my I was in my settings I think I've blocked about 10 people ever so I'm not very heavy with with the blocking but um that was one of those was because there was a man that kept trying to get me to

wanted to fly me out to Morocco uh to have sex with him uh he got blocked although again during the pandemic I was thinking yeah I don't yeah generally people it's weird like obviously feeding is a very emotive topic and when I mentioned Wilf's tongue tie and us making the decision to go from breastfeeding after 10 weeks or whatever to bottle feeding. I had messages from people that were like, I feel sorry for your kids that you can't be bothered to do what's best for them. Yeah. And do you just not read them after a while or do you find yourself compelled to read them? I don't. The problem is you can't. It's like the worst thing I think about social media is that you can be having a really nice day

and it's a lottery isn't it so I dip into my messages and I like to I like to read my messages because I like to respond to people um but you know you could be having a really nice day and if you happen to dip into your messages and you know the first message is one that tells you all the reasons that you're a failure as a parent um and you don't deserve your kids or one there were one that just said uh god I never noticed how ugly you were until you did that series of stories this morning I wasn't my best day all right it wasn't my best day um I guess it must be those curveball ones like I guess if you post about breastfeeding you know you're gonna get someone who doesn't agree with you but it must be those shock ones where you're like what I didn't think that was controversial yeah and the other thing that's hard is that obviously um with everything that's

going on in the world I try to provide like a little bit of a like balanced view of so like as soon as uh as soon as news broke of the situation in Ukraine I um did a series of stories with resources so i've got nothing i've got nothing intelligent to to add but i found places that did have something intelligent to add and was like these are all the places that you can get information here is where you can donate these are places are verified it's not fake news it's i've looked into it um and also here's the link to uh the news round site which the kids have found really useful blah blah so to me that was like the problem is as soon as you post anything you then get well why haven't you mentioned anything about this um you know as an as an

influencer your silence on a million other topics is always deafening to everybody else so we rescued a cat but there'll always be somebody who will tell me that my silence on, you know, rodents is deafening. Rescuing dogs, yeah. Why haven't you talked about the bumblebees, Sarah? Exactly, exactly. It's just, you're just neglecting your duty. Or I'll share like a charity appeal. Again, I'm very careful about making sure I know where, you know, where the funds are going.

But if it's like a charity appeal, I might share one for somebody that's you know needs life-saving treatment for leukemia and I will get well I messaged you two years ago about my son who had this and you didn't share it that's why so at netmums I have a blanket rule that we don't share that you know they're like please shout out someone needs a kidney or because you know what I would love to I would love to use our 1.5 million audience to save everyone of course I would but the minute you then miss one you've almost committed a crime and I'm inundated with messages from friends family like people I've never met saying please can you share this please can you share this and I just have to say I'm really sorry I'm not going to I can't because I just can't yeah one of the things I find hard is is not so much the charity ones even though I will sometimes

say I'm really sorry I can't I can't share this um you know um but I kind of always will take a look because I think I would do exactly the same like if my child needed life-saving treatment I would found everyone you know you would wouldn't you you would um but the ones that I find really hard are especially when it's people that I know or I know it's quite weird when it's people that I know but I don't know them very well but I knew them once do you know what I mean and they less so on the charity side but more on small businesses so all of a sudden it will be like so-and-so's messaged me on facebook and i'll think i and it's awful it's really cynical but my first thought is what do they what do they want and unfortunately that is quite often it'll be somebody i haven't spoken to for four or five years somebody i once sat with in science in year 10 and hey hon hope you well can

you share my whatever it is my resolution is that i won't do it publicly because I can't because I can't let the whole netmums facebook feed become shout outs for everyone who needs help and also then it would be awful for the people that I didn't cover but what I do do is I'll if I can do something privately for this then I will if I can connect you to someone I know at Great Ormond Street if I can sign the petition myself and share it with my friends privately so they all sign it, I will. But it is so hard, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And the book writing questions as well. So I will always go, if I can, I'll always reply.

Sometimes somebody will email me and say I need some advice and just wondered, you know, how can I get this in front of a publisher? And I might go back and say, well, you first, you know, it would be good if you could maybe see if you can get an agent. Because if you're represented, then it'd be much easier to um to potentially look at getting a book deal and I'll try and be helpful but sometimes you think people need to help themselves like the email will be like hi Sarah I really want to write a book I'd really like to write a book like yours I've never written anything before but just wondered if you could tell me what I should write um when I should be writing it and also can you put me in contact with your people and you know when you're a little bit like so that it doesn't really work like it doesn't really work yeah we

have the same we have a lot of people mailing us with articles they've written yeah and saying can you publish this and it's just like well this isn't how the system works come to me with an idea first if we want it then we'll publish it I would need to see examples of your published work first oh it's and again yeah and again it's all about tone like I had a really lovely guy message me to say he'd self-published a children's book and could he send me a copy and the email was so original it was like it was it was just funny it was just funny it made me laugh out loud and I'm from that second I was like I'll take it like I said no promises you send me a copy of my book um you know I'm taking a gamble I'm trusting you're not going to be an absolute um psycho so here's my home address send me your book which he did it was brilliant I shouted it out and it was

like it can be you know it can it can be done it's always worth that shot isn't it asking somebody if they can help but he'd like taken time to send something really original and funny and actually um he I was like right okay I'm on board with this and you know helped him get some helped him get some like pre-orders for his book but then of course I get can you share my book and share my book and share my book and share my book and it's like guys I'm really I mean I've got a like you know I feel sometimes a little bit mortified at the amount I've got to share my book so um is it weird the whole self-promotion element oh it's awful I hate it yeah I hate it I hate any time I've got better at it um because I think with this book it's been such a labor of love that if I then just let it down it would be really you've got to give it its best shot I have so um you know I

but it feels like when you've had your first baby and you take 400 pictures a day and upload them in Facebook albums and no one you know nobody cares it doesn't matter um you you want you need to document you know oh we'll be starting weaning um and so you should because you should be rightly proud and all the rest of it feels like that I feel very much like I am overdoing it always feels to me like an awkward level of overdoing it when publication week approaches um because I should be mentioning it kind of most days and there's only so many ways you can go please please buy my book um the thing is with you I think it's I don't mind it because you entertained us on Instagram and Facebook for years and so a bit of that is fine the thing that

I find I'm really cynical about and which really greats is when there's an author who's never really bothered with social media and think for and that's fine because that's not their thing and then they suddenly start telling us what they've had for breakfast and dinner and lunch and and yeah like you know what time they went to the loo and you know it's just so they can then promote their book when it comes out that gets really annoying yeah it's hard it's a game isn't it like they're probably their publisher probably says you need to play this game now like where's your social media presence and they're like oh god now I'm gonna have to like instagram my bagel because if I don't then I'm no one's gonna care when I go oh here's my here's my book so it's hard I always feel like it's a both for me it's both a blessing and a curse to have followers that are so so lovely and supportive because on the one hand they wish me well because at some

point I made them laugh with a blog post I wrote about my baby pooing itself in Tesco or something do you know what I mean like there's at some point there's a fondness there so we've got that connection so they they do genuinely want to see me do well but they also is a point of that they didn't follow me in the first place to hear about my novel writing adventures so how much do they care probably I mean I'm not I'm not I'm not stupid like I'm I know most people probably aren't that interested in um in the book coming out but I would be you know insane not to not to milk my social media profiles for all that I can at this time. No, you've got to, you've got to.

Yeah. Right, we're getting near the end. So when's the final trio? So what's the rest of the week got in store for you? So, well, obviously we'll be coming down from the High of World Book Day this evening. So that'll be exciting. Spending four and a half hours getting skeleton face paint off and getting it out of the carpet

because it always gets in the carpet getting it out of the eyebrows it always gets in the carpet oh my god yeah what else I mean it's quite rock and roll I've got to flee

and deworm the cat tomorrow that's on the calendar that is literally on the calendar the rescue cat that I've got because I don't care about other animals obviously then yeah I don't care about other animals, obviously. Then, yeah, I don't really know.

Probably, depending on the weather, might have to venture to some kind of soft play hellhole on Saturday or Sunday. With the kids, they are now an age they will go off and play. and I will sit with a hot chocolate with all the trimmings marshmallows cream everything and kind of you know scroll on my mindlessly on my phone and they just pop back every now and again asking for like chips and drinks and I'm like this is what I was promised like it's starting to come starting to come good a little bit um but yeah other than that nothing nothing wildly nothing wildly I'm off to London next week to see my publisher. So that will be fun.

Are you going to have a big swanky book launch at some point? I don't think I'm having a book launch party as such. I'm having like a bit of a celebration day at my publisher's. So, you know, lunch, a very nice lunch with the team and some other bits and pieces. And then I'm doing a series of like book events, but I'm not doing very many. I'm doing one in Liverpool because Lingham's on the Wirral are like the most supportive bookshop ever and I've done I've been there for every book so I was like yes I'll come back I don't care that I live in Devon that's fine nice right last question big one no second to last I haven't asked I haven't

asked I'm getting ahead of myself so you're always getting ahead of yourself. What's for tea, Sarah, and who's cooking? So we're having fish pie tonight. Nice. Because it's my work day and James isn't working. I do the majority of the cooking, but James will mash the potatoes before I get home. Which is the worst job. He will peel and boil and mash the spuds.

And then when I get home, I will make the sauce? He will peel and boil and mash the spuds and then when I get home I will make the sauce and assemble everything and put it in the oven. I like teamwork, that's nice. Team tea, that's good. I think I need a bit more of that in my house. Right, Wendy, last question, it is yours, go. Sarah, imagine that we are your boys and sing us your lullaby. Can you do that? Oh, God, is this for real? Afraid it is. We ask everyone this. We're not just asking you. Okay, but my boys don't like lullabies

because all that they're interested in is wrestling. So all we sing in my house is wrestling entrance songs. I mean, I can sing whatever one you want. Maybe not the Shawn Michaels one. Give us a wrestling entrance songs. I mean, I can sing whatever one you want. Maybe not the Shawn Michaels one. Give us a wrestling entrance song. Well, the most inappropriate one is Shawn Michaels, which goes, I'm just a sexy boy. Sexy boy.

I'm not your boy toy. And my kids sing it all the time. They love it. We sing a little rendition of that at bedtime. Undertaker's less lyrical. It's mostly just the dong dong and then uh yeah I mean there's loads I know I know them all Hulk Hogan Real American did you imagine this would be your repertoire pre-kids no it's very different if you had three girls it's great so different but

I love it I actually I'm fully on board with the wrestling I'm not a massive like kids are into football not massively into football but when they started getting into wrestling, I had a moment where I was like, it's going to have to be if you can't beat them, join them in a moment. You're going to have to opt in to some of these things. Wrestling was the one. We went to WWE Live. We watch it on telly. We got up to watch

the Royal Rumble in the middle of the night. Honestly, I'm all in. I'm afraid there's no h's no like um you know hush hushed by baby this has been um an absolute pleasure and also it's the only time um i've ever i can't imagine a time when i would ever sing a wrestling entrance music song on a podcast so thanks guys you're welcome you are more than welcome thanks for being an amazing guest um good luck to james with the old laser yeah i keep calling it the snip but you know when that i was like yeah i mean it's more of just like a laser he's like can you just we just i don't

let's not talk about it it will it will be what it will be i won't tell him about the pictures from your friends you know yeah no don't um and we're very excited about the book best of luck and best of luck with the second one I know it's just going to be a breeze and it's going to be brilliant I know it is thank you both thank you so much see you later bye