The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep73: Kate Lawler on a first year of motherhood, that wasn't all unicorns and rainbows

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

Listen as Wendy and Annie get real with Kate Lawler, on the confusion that is postnatal depression.

This episode is sponsored by the NHS. Now, a hot topic on our Netmums forum is the COVID-19 vaccine and whether it's okay for pregnant women to have it. Lots of you are asking for the facts and that's something we've got plenty of. For example, here's one. Between May and October last year, 96% of pregnant women who were admitted to hospital with COVID-19 symptoms were unvaccinated. You can book your vaccine online or find a walk-in centre at

nhs.uk forward slash COVID vaccination. Now, on with the show. You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy College. And together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments. With guests who are far more interesting than we are on this week's show it's a blur it's just i can't believe how much i can't remember of the early days and i have to look back at notes i made to remember when it was that i thought wow i have a problem i know that bodge told me enough is enough we need help at one point where i just you know i'd had enough and i ran into the room and i had no at that point. I couldn't get her to sleep and I put her down on the bed

and I just ran upstairs and said, I can't do it anymore. And he came upstairs and he was like, enough is enough. You can't do this on your own. And I think that was about six weeks in. But before all of that, welcome to another episode of your favourite podcast, Sweat, Snot and Tears. We have had them all in this house this morning sweat because the house is still bloody falling down and not unpacked so we spend the early morning hours lugging boxes around trying to find things snot because himself can't cope with the builder's dust and i tell you now if he sniffs one more time the sledgehammer may well see some action uh tears because the girl child has a major weird thing. In fact, I need your advice on this one,

about being late for school. And her brother, however, goes the other way and just kind of sloths around on mornings and that makes her cry. So that's really fun. Right, Wend, compare notes. Tell me about your morning. In honesty, mine feels like a bloody breeze compared to that.

Your morning always do. Why am I being bloody short-changed in the morning? Because on a Thursday and Friday when I work at Netmums, it's the husband's job to do the kids, so mine is just zen. I just kind of waltz into my office and sit on my ass, on my creaky chair that I get told off about, and that's it. That's all I do. But this morning, the dog, the poor dog.

I'm sure listeners will be thrilled to hear more about Hector because he basically stars on the pod more than our guests. He's still got a limpy foot. And the vet says now his good foot is limpy because he's using it so much. Because his bad foot is limpy. Oh, for God's sake. And so... And what about the infection?

You said yesterday he was just lying still and wouldn't move. Yeah, he's sad. So we're bathing his foot in salt water. Dear God, I can't... Let's just stop. No one needs to hear this shit. Let's introduce the guest. And also, if it's gross, I'll vomit.

Yes, let's introduce our guest because she's nice. Go on, you do it. Ladies and gentlemen, I love this lady. She follows me around in the afternoons on the radio, telling me what to do with my life. Welcome, Kate Lawler. Welcome, Kate. Good afternoon. Wow, it's not late afternoon, is it?

We're doing this in the morning. It feels like I've been awake forever. Spot someone who's used to saying that a lot. Good afternoon. Hi, ladies. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Oh, you're welcome. Any time.

How's it going? Any sweat, snot or tears in your house so far today? All three. Yeah, the sweat from me. hi ladies thanks for having me on your podcast you're welcome anytime how's it going any sweats not or tears in your house so far today all three yeah the sweat from me because I took Noah swimming this morning and as I was parking um there was a woman who then kind of nipped in and parked where I was going to park but there was another space it was fine so I said oh could you move up so she panicked and I was like it's okay just can you move up or move back because there was three spaces and she'd gone right in the middle so I was like if you just move that way I can get in there and then in the meantime the guy who was waiting for us to sort out the parking situation was being a right knob and he was like bib hurry

up so then I got I felt pressure to park quickly and then I quickly parked the car and scuffed the alloy of our brand new car and I was so stressed because I was like that was an easy space to get into but because you were stressing out because I was taking my time and so there was sweat there did you give him an ear bashing I didn't actually I just said patience that's good that's good well done and then there was a bit of snot from noah because she's getting over a cold and do you know what i can't say there's been any tears this morning she had a little bit of a meltdown when i was getting her dressed in the changing room but there was it was nothing to write home about taking little kids like noah's age she's one isn't she swimming

is a very stressful experience not the swimming but the changing isn't everything yeah do you do them first or you first like what's the right she's first she's got to go first I do you know what I find it all very stressful and as I was closing the locker I was literally saying to myself as we were getting ready to go swimming I was like it's just an alloy it's just an alloy so that happened but but it is everything that comes with it because it's quite a long drive to where we go swimming it took 25 minutes this morning and she was almost falling asleep and I thought no no don't fall asleep now and so I was trying to keep her up from the danger nap then obviously the parking nightmare with the alloy and I was gutted because I went out and looked at the wheel and it was worse than I

thought it was as well and then obviously changing rooms they are this one is boiling hot which is great you I'd rather have a hot changing room but you're then very hot and bothered getting you both dressed and they're the size of a postage stamp so you've got a baby and you and a bag and a towel in this tiny minuscule little changing room I once came out of a changing room when my eldest was little and hadn't realized I'd kind of thrown my vest on and I was going to the nappy bin and I just had a tit out I was just walking around the changing room with a boomerang just nice so yeah shall I tell you my funny church swimming with a child story so my mum used to take Atty swimming once a week when he was a toddler and found it incredibly stressful as we all do and decided that the best way to handle it was to

you know put the swim swimming costume under her clothes so that when she got there she could strip quite quickly and then handle him but it was all so stressful because he used to do this thing where he used to like tummy crawl and he used to love tummy crawling under the cubicles so you'd have to knock on someone else's door and say can I have my child back please anyway he was busy doing that she got really stressed she ended up walking into the pool with her big pants on over her swimming costume she's never she never went back oh no there's all everyone's got a swimming story yeah everyone's got a swimming story. Yeah. Everyone's got a swimming story. So, Kate, who looks after Noah when you're working? I know I've been following your Insta stories and you've had all sorts of shiz around her starting nursery and you've not been happy and you were really nervous and there was a few incidents.

So tell us what you've ended up doing. So, yeah, we've delayed nursery for a few months just until she's able to walk and be a little bit more robust I felt like she was a sitting duck when we went to the selling in sessions and she couldn't really crawl properly either in her puddle suit and those big boots that she was wearing because it was in the garden they were sending in the boots I mean yeah she can just about crawl anyway but then when she she went in that gear, she found it very difficult. And so she just sat on the mat and all the kids are running around her. And obviously she's going to get like knocked over and hit because they don't, you know, kids are just, they're just not aware of carrying a truck midair.

She's going to hit a baby on the head. So, yeah, we've waited. So we've just carried on doing as we were doing before. Bodge is my fiance, Bodge. His mum, Sue, is her first grandchild. so we've just carried on doing as we were doing before uh bodges my fiancee bodge his mom sue as she's her first grandchild so she is at that like stage where she just wants to be with noah all the time oh yeah everyone needs a sue we need yeah my mom is on her sixth grandchild so she's like if you desperately need me yeah if you just but if it thinks if there's a last port of call

if you are there's nobody else i'm like cool but um sue's great so sue does twice a week um i only work on the radio three times a week so we only need child care three times a week and bodge is at work every day so i have i have noah from the moment she wakes up until one every day monday to wednesday and then at one sue arrives monday and wednesday then we have a babysitter on a Tuesday. And then I go to work at two. And then I get home at eight. And Bodge is home at six. So Bodge will relieve his mum or the babysitter and do bath and bed.

But just listen to what you've just said there. Yeah, I'm thinking what you're thinking, Gwen. Just the logistical, It's like an army. Decision required. There's no day that's the same. It's me, mornings, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Sue, Monday afternoons. Siobhan, Tuesday, one to six.

Yeah, and then Thursday I have her all day on my own. Yeah, and then Friday, Boddy and I try and do it together. It is a bit stressful. If anyone says says why are parents tired I give you right there Kate Lawler's week because Kate Lawler's week is atypical everyone's week is like this and no wonder we're all so knackered and the other thing is you think I can I can hear what I you remind me so much of me that you think that every minute you're not working you should be with Noah as well.

So like you're basically there's no. When is the Kate time in all of this? There is no Kate time. Exactly. And then poor Kate. But that's the same. It's the same for everyone, isn't it? I know. I know. But it is. It breaks you. It really does. I feel guilty because I'm not sending her to nursery. So there isn't the interaction with other babies. So I try and get her to do stuff when I'm with her. So every Thursday I'll take her to a parent and baby group where she goes on like loads of slides.

There's a ball pit. There's singing in a group and stuff like that on a Wednesday. No, on a Tuesday she'll go to this place that's soft play with the babysitter. And then on a Friday i take her swimming every morning every friday morning so there is always something every day where she's kind of doing an activity run yourself ragged love do you know really what i'm this is so bizarre i don't know if i'm the same as everybody else i reckon there'll be people that can relate to this you know you said where's the cake time I'm not craving like I don't I'm not

craving a massage or going to the gym I never and I never craved it either and people would say why don't you take a day for yourself go here go there and I'd be like no I don't want to it was only afterwards that I realized how exhausted I was but you know what I want to do Annie I want to go upstairs to the loft room and clean the mold off the outsole out the skylight windows which I've been meaning to do since September 2020 it's I just want to do it and I said to Bodge this morning I went please can we arrange a day where you take Noah to your mum's for the day and you stay there all day with her and she has her lunchtime nap at your mum's so I can get the stuff done to this house I've been meaning to do since we moved in one and a half years ago because I still haven't

cleaned the skylight windows on the outside I still haven't rearranged the wardrobe upstairs in the loft which is just an absolute shit tip and there's just so much that I need to do but you never get around to doing it and if I had free time that's what I'd do I wouldn't go for I wouldn't go and get my nails done I wouldn't go and no I wouldn't either you just want to get the house in order I don't know why it's like we're still nesting you carry on nesting don't you just want to get everything in order I think I've been nesting for 43 years yeah same same but it's funny because you talking about all the baby groups and stuff everyone says when you have your second child things are different but I remember the guilt with my second child was that I hadn't taken her to her socialization was sitting by the side of the pool watching her sister go swimming

or so it's really interesting hearing you because I was exactly like you with my first we did sing and sign and we did monkey music and we did all of these things. And then the second one, it was like, right, school pickup. Come on, off you go. Let's go. And I was like, she basically socialized on the playground with the other babies that were being ignored. It must be difficult, though. I can't I can't imagine.

I just can't. I mean, fair play doing it again. I don't know how parents do it with multiples and I don't know how I just can't. I mean, fair play doing it again. I don't know how parents do it with multiples and I don't know how single parents cope. I've already decided if I win the lottery, it's all going to single parent charities because dear Lord, they deserve medals. How do they do it?

There's no respite, is there? There's no, like you always think, I always think if I've had Noah all day on a Thursday and if it's been a bad and stressful day, I'm like'm like you know what at least he's home at six and he can take over and I can have a break and what how about single parents like what helps they have there's no unless your child is sleeping that's your only time and not enough credit is given to like you say people with multiples or single kids I mean it's just just relentless I might be wrong saying this I imagine it's it's it's just, just relentless. I might be wrong saying this. I imagine it's,

it's, it's going to be difficult for all single parents, but especially those with the newborns and the toddlers, which, you know, there aren't, they aren't on your own because once they go to school, there is a bit of a break unless you are working as well then full-time and another job, as well as doing the job as a parent. Do you know what I mean? It's why we all need to support each other. Now Missy you've been very open and candid about what you call the dark times in this first year of Noah's life and all credit to you because we need people being honest about this stuff it's not all you know Instagram selfies and pretty bunting is it with babies it can be bloody tough did you plan to be as honest as you were like or did it just kind of happen um the thing with me is that I've always been an

oversharer about every aspect of my life so I'm um I'm active on Instagram let's say uh Insta stories I've always enjoyed doing and I just before Noah came along I was always on Insta stories I've always enjoyed doing. And I just, before Noah came along, I was always on Insta stories talking about the highlights and the lowlights of every day, you know, the disasters, whatever I had going on. Well, you did a podcast about whether to have a baby if we're talking about oversharing. So you kind of have, you've been in the public eye about this

from the start. Yeah. I think I would have always in my head when I was pregnant, I was thinking, oh, I'll share all the stuff that's going on, the mom and baby stuff that I do with Noah. But I never for a second, it never crossed my mind for a second that I would ever suffer from postnatal depression or really struggle with a newborn as much as I did. I just felt like because I was ready, it would be OK. And despite everybody telling you, oh, it's really hard. That's all they kind of say. I love my friends to bits, but I'm like,

you didn't tell me the truth, but you know what? It's not hard for everybody. Yeah. One person's truth isn't someone else's truth. Some people have babies that miraculously sleep through from like six weeks old and others don't. You can't compare a reflux baby for instance that's a completely different ball game to a non-reflux baby you just can't compare can you no and I don't want to scare people in in I didn't I didn't mean to kind of like so writing this book is I just felt like it was important because I I think it's more harmful to not have conversations like yeah I agree. And it's harmful to not prepare women

for what might happen when you have a baby and, and men and carers and everyone who is involved in childcare. Like I don't, I think it's harmful to not say it can be really difficult and you might suffer from postnatal depression and you might have regrets in the early days because I should point out that I absolutely love Noah and I would do anything for her and ever since I found out I was pregnant the two aren't mutually exclusive are they like you can suffer and find it hard and still adore your child and think that the sun shines out of every orifice yeah and that's what I want to normalize that it's perfectly normal to love your child but actually not enjoy parenting every day.

But it's like every aspect of our life. Like, I'm sure people love what they do for a living, but they might work with people who are complete knobs. It's like our family members and our friends. We love them all to pieces. But sometimes you fall out with them and then, you know, you don't like being friends with somebody. But then you have, you know, same with, you know, like every aspect of your life, right? Your partner. I love Bodger to pieces. Like he's the best partner and he's a great dad, but sometimes he's a moron.

And I'm like, you know what? You're a dick. Yes, like mine with his sniffing. We're married, but one time, one sniff too many, and it's sledgehammer time. So I've got two questions off the back of this cake because I had a similar experience so my first question is at what point and how did you identify that what you were feeling wasn't normal and I use the word normal quite um tentatively but what you that what you were feeling was

postnatal depression because for me that was something that it took a really long time to identify and then secondly kind of who was your go-to other than bodge and his not sniffing that's Annie's I'm getting confused but I just wondered how you identified it and then who propped you up? Good questions. I knew that I had the baby blues because everybody told me that I would get the baby blues and it's inevitable. And I found myself crying a lot, in fact, every day. And I knew that wasn't normal after a certain period of time and I can't really remember when that was because it's it's it's a blur it's just I can't believe how much I can't remember of the early days and I have to look back at notes I made to remember when it was

that I thought wow I have a problem I know that Bodge told me enough is enough. We need help. At one point where I just, you know, I'd had enough and I ran into the room and I had no at that point, I couldn't get her to sleep. And I put her down on the bed and I just run upstairs and said, I can't do it anymore. And he came upstairs and he was like, enough is enough. You can't do this on your own. And I think that was about six weeks in. So I dealt with it. I just bottled up a lot of my emotions. But I feel like part of me feels like everybody knew, but no one said anything because I feel like it's this British stiff upper lip we've got that, you know, keep calm, carry on. Everything's OK. We're all going to be you'll be fine. You're doing a great job.

Even the health visitor who came around saw me crying, but just said, you're doing a great job. Things will get easier. Keep going. That's so annoying I think she just thought that that's her job it's her job yeah my friend said to me that her health visitor came around she cried to her once and she said and she sat her down and had a really in-depth conversation with her and said do you want me do you want to go and speak to the doctor about how you're feeling whereas there was none of that with a health visitor and she I know that she could see how bad I was doing because every time she came over I was in my pajamas and I looked like

death and I'd I'd have red puffy eyes and I would be telling her that I was struggling but then I don't know how much how honest I was with her I just know that I dealt with a lot of it internally and I even struggled to tell Bodge how I was feeling. Like I never told Bodge about me Googling suicide rates among new parents when I was breastfeeding Noah in the nursery. I just Googled it, but then I sort of wondered why I was Googling. I found myself Googling it one night

and I thought, why am I doing this? And it was during those lonely night feeds where I was, and you know, when you think about it, you are, in the early days, you are surrounded by people who are helping you you've got so much support from friends from family I mean I had this huge army of parents on Instagram who would be there at the moment I opened the app saying who's awake in the wide awake club like who's who's breastfeeding who's bottle feeding who's who's got a baby who can't sleep or who's got reflux with a cold or whatever and

there would always be these but I never but I couldn't believe how alone I felt still it was really confusing and then that I think within by this time six weeks came um I would I was already speaking to a therapist and she did a questionnaire on me asked me lots and lots of questions and she was the one that diagnosed me with PND because I kind of didn't I just I didn't want to admit that i had it i couldn't believe that i had it i think when you're in something like that you can't see things for what they are very well can you yeah i guess i didn't i thought to myself well i'm not like i i have a i have a roof over my head like i like i've got a partner who's here and he's taking extra paternity leave.

And my sister's coming every Friday to help clean the house because it's a mess. And I've got all, like I've got so much support. Like do, you know, I'm not harming myself. I don't, like, I don't know.

I just found it really confusing. A really confusing time because I just didn't know that what I had was postnatal depression or like I had any right to have it. Do you know what I mean? I felt guilty. But there's also guilt.

But yeah, we both said guilt at the same time because you feel if your baby is healthy and you're managing to breastfeed and all of the things that you know you should be doing you feel guilty that you're not why am I not enjoying this in the way I should be you can't kind of fathom why you feel like it can you no there is so much guilt especially because Noah was healthy I mean she'd had a few she'd been in hospital a few times from the we were in hospital for five days after she was born um and then she was in hospital quite a few times like there was A&E trips there were there were about three A&E trips I remember seeing all of that that's really stressful in itself Kate like that would really traumatize anybody yeah I thought that was pretty normal I thought oh they're new you know newborns must go to A&E all the time and it's only since

I've had Noah and since my friends have had babies and I've and they've come home and they've not been to A&E once I'm like oh actually we did have quite a rough start at the beginning that's really tough yeah just because of this just because of the i think because of how little she was and they'd already been there she'd already been in intensive care when she was born because she had fluid on the lungs and they they didn't know whether it was an infection or whether it was just from her being born via cesarean or whether it was you know they didn't know what it was but she'd been pumped with antibiotics for three weeks which then caused really bad reflux so then we

had a reflux baby and then I don't know there was just a lot going on there and I think by the time the A&E visits were over and she was fine and we could get on with things I think that's when it hit me because I think there was a little bit of like not post-traumatic stress from those three weeks but I just still think it was kind of me, I was dealing with it at the time and I wasn't actually processing it properly. So you never process till afterwards, do you? Yeah. Now back to the COVID-19 vaccine. We want everyone to have a healthy pregnancy, but unfortunately we know that being pregnant puts you at greater risk of getting seriously ill with COVID-19. And sadly, that's not all. Getting COVID in pregnancy could also cause complications,

including your baby being born prematurely. The best way to protect yourself and your baby is by having the COVID-19 jab. The good news is you don't need to wait until your baby arrives to have your vaccine or booster. It's safe to have at any stage of your pregnancy. You can book in at nhs.uk forward slash COVID vaccination. Now on with the show. So when the therapist said, I think you've got PMD, how did that feel? How did it feel for someone to verbalise it and say it and acknowledge it? In a way, it was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulder because I knew she'd diagnosed me with what I thought I had. But also I cried because I almost felt like a disappointment that I wasn't enjoying motherhood.

And I felt a disappointment that I was feeling so depressed when I had so much to be happy about. It was conflicting emotions, really, which is how I feel about parenting in general so she diagnosed me with generalized anxiety disorder as well um which was quite a surprise because I didn't realize I had that either but it was pretty glaringly obvious from the question she was asking me that I had it so it was a it was a case of using the tools she gave me to try and help myself and going to the doctor um to get

medication and I was really reluctant to take the meds at the beginning because I just I don't know why I was scared of relying on them for a long time and I don't know I shouldn't really feel guilty about or ashamed in taking antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds because so many people do and there's nothing wrong with it but I don't know why there was just something in me there's a terrible stigma I think we were raised to think it was wrong and it's it's it's we've done ourselves a dreadful disservice like if you were sick with anything else you'd take medicine of course it's yeah of course so yeah so I think that there came a time where I just decided to take them but it it wasn't for months after I had Noah.

I tried to do it. I tried to take CBD oil. I took CBD oil for a very long time. I'm actually back on the CBD oil now because I felt like the meds didn't really help. So I felt like I was sleeping better from taking CBD oil. So I came off them after three months and then went back on CBD oil and I feel fine now. Oh, that's interesting. I don't know if I feel fine because Noah is at an age now where I find her so much easier and I feel fine now. Oh, that's interesting. I don't know if I feel fine because Noah is at an age now where I find her so much easier and I find it easier to look after her. And if she has a meltdown, I'm not having a meltdown with her before I found her crying. So I felt like my patience was just, I had such a low tolerance with crying. And if she was crying nonstop and I didn't know why and I couldn't settle her I get so stressed I would get so like cross with myself that I couldn't calm her down and

you know what the sound of a baby crying non-stop is like you're just like I just want this noise to stop and I want you to stop crying this is really upsetting for me to see you getting more and more upset and you're getting hot and you're just it was yeah I didn't deal I didn't deal very well with that in the in the early days but I've kind of learned to cope with that you could be talking about me I can just as you're saying it I can just remember that feeling and just wishing that you could make it stop because you it affects you from inside doesn't it yeah so how do you feel now like looking back with sort of some distance and some perspective and some easier, better times under your belt? I feel like, I'll tell you what's interesting.

When Noah turned one, I always remember because I had Ellie Taylor on our podcast and she said that she really didn't enjoy the first year looking back on it. And people used to say to me in those early days like when noah was when she was only a couple of weeks old everyone was just like just get through the first just get through the first three months which is i know they meant it from they meant it in a nice way and they were trying to help but saying to somebody who can barely get through the next six hours i'll just get through the first three months you're like what that's i can't i can't actually deal or some people will say get through the first six months and you're only six weeks in and you honestly I felt that was so much pressure

but I look back now and I'd say the real turning point for me was around 10 months um but since Noah turned one I've I found it like infinitely easier and it's still difficult gee whiz I find parenting the hardest thing ever and I can't it is a full-time job and I was really naive to before to think that it wasn't a job I used to say to my twin sister back when uh everybody just had Facebook accounts and there was no Instagram her Facebook page used to say full-time mum I was so out of order I'd be like full-time mum like it's a job um I was like you take your kids to the park every day I was such a cow like I feel so guilty because you don't know what it's like and until you've got a child it is a full-time job it is a full-time gig and I actually regret taking on so much work

so soon after Noah was born because there is it is just one job that you should focus on for as long as possible before you go back to work well what i was gonna say is if you had your time again or if you decide to do it again blah blah blah what would you do differently what would you put in place that you didn't have first time around if i was to do it again because i'm definitely not if i was to do it again so hypothetically speaking no i'm definitely not doing it again well for the benefit of someone else who is about to do it so I would say if you can just focus on the one job of looking after your baby and try not to do any work for as long as possible if you can I know that some parents can't it's not affordable to stay off work and to be you know and to just do that one job but I I really that's my one regret that

I just that because I did I left Virgin and I really, that's my one regret that I just, that because I left Virgin and I was, I'm a contractor at Virgin, so I didn't get paid maternity leave. I was, I was really worried about money and thinking I have to earn money because I'm taking longer maternity leave than planned. I originally planned only to take three months. What an idiot. What was I thinking? So many people do it though so many first-time parents go yeah I'm just gonna take three months I'll be back you think it's you think it's enough time right but it's how could I ever have left Noah at three months she was still she was still a proper new in my eyes she was still a newborn and so I so but I would say take as much maternity leave

as you possibly can and really just focus on looking after your baby rather than all the other jobs that you feel need to be done because whenever I whenever Noah was napping I always tried to do other work instead of resting which same I didn't have to go back to work but I felt that I had to make the house look perfect and rearrange my books and fold the laundry and clean the kitchen floor and I really bloody didn't I should have just sat down and gone to sleep yeah it's hard when people say sleep with a baby sleeps that's difficult because you might have just had a triple shot macchiato to keep you awake because you've been awake exactly and then you're like oh look I'm so sorry oh they're asleep on the buggy and the street and you can't just lie on the street or even just like

watch tv or just read a book even just that downtime I would say it's really hard I got told to sleep when the baby slept so much but I couldn't but I should have just laid on the bed and just you know read a book or read a magazine or watched a tv show or just done something to just switch off instead it was like right how many chores can I fit in in the next 45 minutes while she's I was exactly the same and it's such a I hate I hate that I did that it's rubbish so you very firmly said back then nope no more. And is that something that you think, the question is really whether, was that your thought process before you got P&D or has your P&D affected that thought process? One was always the compromise with Bodge because that's why we

did the podcast, Maybe Baby. He really wanted kids and i didn't and for seven years we had very uncomfortable and awkward conversations because when i first met him i told him i didn't want kids and marriage wasn't on the radar either and he was like calm down we've only just met and i was like i'm just laying my cards on the table just in case you're thinking yeah i'd like to have children in case you're thinking you really want to be a dad but you know the years went by and he was asking for a little bit of hope. And I kept reminding him that I didn't want kids and that I didn't want to get married. And so in the end, it was like, OK, let's have one. But just so you know, this is the compromise. One is the compromise. Because he used to then say when before we even got pregnant, we used to speak about the possibility. He used to say we'd have to have two wouldn't we we wouldn't want just one you got one for trying oh he's a great salesperson he really is um he saw and he convinced me to marry him as well he's done all right hasn't he so yeah he he said like but now even he is firmly in the one and done camp. He said, one, I wouldn't want to see you go through that again.

And two, I think we have enough children in our life. We've got Baxter and Shirley as well. It's like having kids with those two. Baxter's a little old man. Shirley is always on the warpath. She's always trying to kill something. She's always barking at other dogs, running out in the garden, getting covered in mud. And honestly, this morning was mayhem. Baxter was sick in the garden. Shirley ran out and tried to get a fox and she was covered in mud I had to take Noah swimming so I was trying to get her breakfast it was like having three children so there's definitely no way we're going to do it again can you see a day when you would change your mind or are you just no yeah definitely not although although a lot of women like how many kids you have are there no a lot of women are saying once noah hits one you

should keep your legs firmly shut because that's when you start thinking about having another one but no definitely not it's um i love her to pieces but i just i don't want to do it again i i think i'm i'm at an age where i'm i think if i'd have maybe done this in my 20s it might have been a different story but i waited forever to have a child because I just wasn't ready. And I feel like I'm at an age where I can't be bothered to have another one. I haven't got the energy. I've just about got enough energy to have one. You don't have to defend it.

It's not a decision that, you know. Good for you knowing yourself well. Yeah, I think it's great. So why the book? So I kept a diary while I was pregnant it wasn't a big diary I just made notes about how I was feeling and all the funny things that were happening it was happening to me and actually these notes were more for our podcast but I love reading them and I wrote them in a way that I could look back after you know now I was born in years to come and so all these

notes I had when I was pregnant I really enjoyed I carried on writing them when uh when I was in those newborn days and I was in the nursery I'd be breastfeeding Noah and I'd just be writing stuff down um and it'll be highlights and low lights and all the lovely little moments we had like our first smile and the first time you know what I mean the day we first put her in the bath and all these little moments that we really, really enjoyed with Noah. But also all the times I was feeling like despair and anxiety and stress and worry. And so I wrote a lot of stuff down. And actually, the plan was to do another podcast series after Noah came along to kind of like finish the trilogy. Like Maybe Baby, we did the first podcast about me being on the fence and thinking about

it. And then the second podcast was, the second series, sorry, was when I was pregnant. And so we thought it'd be nice to finish up with how we're coping now as parents. And we recorded one episode and it was just very depressing. And I said to Bod, I just don't think this is a podcast I want to do because both series have been really lighthearted and fun. And I'm just, I don't know if I want to do, I just don't think this is a podcast I want to do because both series have been really lighthearted and fun. And I'm just, I don't know if I want to do a podcast about it. And weirdly enough, I was approached by a publisher to ask

and they asked if I wanted to write a book about my experience. And I said, actually, me writing it all down appeals to me a lot more than talking about it. I say now as I'm doing a podcast. But isn't that interesting? why do you think that was writing about it is really cathartic yeah it is and also bodge and I had only ever had the experience of doing a podcast together which was really fun and light-hearted like in the first series we'd be getting drunk doing it in the second series I would maybe have a glass of wine or a little tipple just before just to calm my nerves believe it or not I still just get

nervous when recording a podcast but I just felt like the third series was too doom and gloom I mean the book is pretty doom and gloom but you know what I feel like I don't know that it has been a hugely cathartic experience writing the book. And it was just something I felt more comfortable doing because I already had all these notes and I felt like it was easier for me to do this on my own than sit there and talk to Bodge about it. Because we'd already had the most stressful eight months. It was almost like therapy, that first session we did together of the podcast that never was. And afterwards I was like, that was pretty dark, wasn't it? But I just, I didn't feel like I wanted to do a whole series on it.

So who's the book for? Like who should read your book? Do you know what? I have had so many women, so many women especially message me on dm i was really active on dms during those newborn days when i would spend a lot of my time breastfeeding or just feeding her in general so i was able to look at my phone while doing that and um there were a lot of women older mums uh sorry not older mums but women whose children are now grown up who messaged me saying they felt like i did and they wished there was something like Instagram back in their day because it would have been nice to talk to somebody who was in the same position and none of their friends ever admitted to them that's how they felt and they felt alone

when they had PND or they felt like they'd made a huge mistake in those early days and so in a way I feel like this is a book for those women who went so many years feeling guilty for how they felt and feeling like you know how they felt was wrong and I also feel like it's a book for new parents and parents to be to kind of like I don't know normalize feelings of despair and you know regret in those early days and to make parents know that it's okay to perfectly miss your life before you had a child it's it's okay to struggle and it's it's okay to feel sad and surely enough sorry there she is on the warpath um yeah so yeah i just want to say that to the women who are pregnant and to the parents, you know, to the dads as well, it could be really hard for the parents as well, for the partners and for any carer that it can be a soul sucking and physically and mentally draining experience.

But it's also the best thing ever. And it's magical and it's beautiful. And it's a mind blowing experience that I still can't believe I've done. And I look at Noah now and just think I never, I every day I look at her and think I can't believe I feel like this now. Because there was a point when she was a few weeks old, a few months old, even when she was nine months old, that I would cry and think what have I done? I'm never going to feel happiness again. I'm never going to be me again. I'm never going to be the old Kate again, the carefree Kate, the fun Kate, the like, good sense of humor Kate. And I honestly didn't think I would ever come out of it at one point.

And I look at my life now and I think, wow, times have changed so much. It's interesting. I did a poll the other day when Noah turned one and I said, is the first year of parenthood the hardest? And I really thought there would be an overwhelming response of yes, but actually it was pretty much 50-50, which made me go, oh shit, I haven't actually got over the hardest bit yet. No, but I think everyone finds different stages hard. Like I have huge empathy and know how difficult it can be for people in the first year but I'll be really honest I adored the first year and found other things harder so it is just it's just such a unique experience and the thing if I could change one thing about people's understanding or expectations of parenthood or motherhood it would just be like your experience will be yours and that's okay

and they're all normal and it's all all right like it's okay to just to have a different experience to the next person it's fine yeah you're the same as a lot of my friends they really enjoyed the first year and now their kids are like two or three they're finding that a real challenge in fact harder than the first year I found the going back to work after a year but that really hard because I felt such guilt but also knew that I needed to do it it was a very I found that really tough did you go back full-time straight away no no I didn't go back full-time I did four days um wow still but yeah it was quite full-on so yeah we all you know everyone's going to find a different bit difficult. It's a massive life change.

Like you've essentially created another creature and then you have to keep it alive forever. It's mental. I know. Do you agree with this? My friend messaged me saying, I found that parents who found the newborn days really hard and tend to enjoy the subsequent years

more and vice versa so if you found the newborn days really easy and enjoyable you tend to struggle with the toddler phase i think that it's so it it's not as black and white and that's ebbs and flows i found toddlers like i coined the hashtag twatty toddlers because toddlers are just twats. But then it ebbs and flows. You might find two to two and a half really hard. But then actually suddenly something clicks at two and a half and they're delightful till three and a half. And then they turn into Satan for six weeks. And you just have to roll with the punches and drink wine and get free

having honestly it's what i remember seeing a post that i did well i don't know why but i just you know when you get a flashback this was a year ago and i saw it on my instagram and i said i can't believe how much it changes by the hour when they're newborns so you'll have a really good hour and you'll be like this is the best thing ever and then you'll have an hour where you cannot stop crying and you feel like shit and you're questioning why you even became a parent because you don't know what you're doing and you feel totally inadequate and you feel trapped or overwhelmed and then the next hour you're fine so it changes by the hour I find I found I found the increase of time gets longer now that she's one. So I'll have good afternoons followed by a bad evening

and then a good day followed by a bad day. Whereas in the beginning, it was just so hour by hour, it could change. The other thing I think is massively underestimated in all of this, and we haven't really spoken about it, is what lack of sleep does to you as a human being i think it plays such an enormous part in all of the things we've discussed like i really think part of why people start to feel better who've had a terrible early bit of parenthood

is because a child starts sleeping for longer stretches like sleep deprivation is a torture instrument and there's a reason that it is like, you just can't function without proper sleep. You can't. And it makes you depressed. A lack of sleep. It does. You can't see the wood for the trees when you're sleep deprived. You can't rationalize.

You definitely can't rationalize. Depressed. And the pressure that puts on you and your partner as well, because when you're tired, you just, you take it out on the person closest to you. So the pressure that put on bodge and i because we were both tired and we were both trying to do it together so we'd both get up in the middle of the night instead of one of us which was probably in hindsight maybe i don't know if it's the right thing to do or not but there were times he had

to help me because i was i can't do this on my own i'm falling asleep but we there were the sleep deprivation i went full-on crazy talking i was talking to him and answering questions that he didn't even ask he was like what are you what and i said hallucination i was hallucinating he was like you've just answered i'd never said anything and then i'd say what did i i then say something and i go what did i just say and he'd be like it didn't make sense don't worry about it i was properly out of my mind. That's not good for anyone. It's not good for anyone.

Right, but back to the more mundane stuff. Yeah. What's for tea and who's cooking, Kate? I mean, the second question you asked there, this is an easy answer. Not me, because I never cook. The handsome always cooks, but it is a Friday. So it makes me think he'll probably suggest the takeaway.

I was going to say, are we going to go takeaway? Maybe. Last night, do you know what he made me? He got fresh haddock fillets and he fried them in breadcrumbs. And he got brioche buns with tartar sauce and salad and made us little like a proper fish burger. And then we had tender stem broccoli, which was fried up in a wok with garlic and sesame oil and it was lovely for a bit of greenery sounds dreamy it's a great takeaway what are you gonna get probably thai we discovered this new thai near where we live and they do all

sorts of yummy delicious um food so we'll probably go thai we're into this uh louis theroux documentary at the moment where he's going across America. We're watching that as well. Which one are you on? I love that man. We finished, we watched the first one last night and I watched the whole thing with my mouth on the floor. So he is brilliant. He is such a great interviewer, isn't he?

I think he might be my biggest man crush that I have. There's something about him, isn't there? He's just godly. He really is. Yeah, there's something about him, isn't there? He's just godly. He really is. Yeah, there's something about him. Right, last question, Wend. It's the killer, but we do it for everyone. Kate Lawler, imagine that we are Noah

and you are singing us to sleep. Can you sing us the lullaby, please? Oh, no, your ears will bleed. I can't sing. I'm so bad. I'm really terrible. Bet you can. Can I play you what I play her?

Go on then. It's an amazing version of a nursery rhyme that we all hate because we've sung it to death. Listen to this. I feel like that about the muffin man. No, listen to this, ladies. I'll try and sing it, the muffin man. It's so beautiful.

It's the same sentences that Annie comes out with. Here we go. You ready? No, it's not this one annie comes out with here we go you ready no it's not this one but that is lovely that's quite nice no no this is it's this one no it's not that one here we go this one it's this one, ready? Knees on toes. How cute is that? I like that. It sends her to sleep. I think I need that to go to sleep.

Honestly, I'm going to send you the best. Noah will be screaming in the car. She was on her way to Whipsnade Zoo last Sunday. Took her to the zoo for the first time for her birthday. She absolutely loved it. In the car on the way there, she was getting very frustrated. She wanted to get out of her car seat. We literally, as soon as we press play on this, she goes from literally silence. But we use this sometimes to go to sleep. It's just gorgeous piano lullabies. And who'd have thought that I'd be listening to a version of Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes and loving it so much.

I'll send it to you, but I can't sing to save my life. Do you want me to sing? Because if you really do, I'll do it, but I can't sing to save my life. No, I like what you shared with us. That's good. We won't make you. Right, Kate Lawler, thank you for being a brilliant guest today. And can I say thank you for writing a book that I think is going to help so many people.

And thank you for always being so honest. Like we all need more honesty in the world. We do. And just remember what you see on Instagram. It's a highlights reel. It's not the real world, which I think it's just lulls us all into a false sense of security. And right now I think too many people look at Instagram and think being a

parent looks fun, but it's changing. Well, and you're part of the change. So well done. Yeah. Great. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Take care, Kate. Bye, Kate.'s changing. Well, and you're part of the change, so well done. Yeah, great. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Take care, Kate. Bye, Kate.

Bye, guys. Thank you.