The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep75: Liz Pichon on the inspiration behind Tom Gates

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Listen as Annie and Wendy chat to author and illustrator Liz Pichon about the career she never thought she'd have! Inspirational listening for parents of kids who hate writing

You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary and I'm Wendy College and together we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments with guests who are far more interesting than we are. On this week's show, for children that are dyslexic it just feels to them that there's a whole world that isn't open to them. Like just don't give up, just be persistent, Do the things that you enjoy doing. Find that book that really sets your imagination going. And there are ways to do things. I mean, I think throughout my whole life, I've been trying to find ways to do things that I shouldn't really be able to do. But before all of that, welcome to another episode of Sweat, Stub and Tears. I hope you are all all right. I'm in the office today, which feels very retro, very 2019. I hope you're all somewhere gorgeous

and inspiring and beautiful and warm and cosy and all the lovely words. Wendell, I can see you are in your dining room as per. What's going on in Wendell world well the sun's out which is pretty cool it feels like actual spring is actually coming and I'm a little bit proud of the biggest small this morning come on share we're recording on red nose day today and the school is actually raising money for children in the Ukraine and my little 10 yearold has spent the last three weeks diligently making bookmarks out of aqua beads, which she is selling at school for children in the Ukraine. And they're super cute. They're like little pumpkins and toadstools and things. So proud mum moment. I'm feeling very, very proud of her. As you should. Now, it's interesting that you raise the 10-year-old here because today I can

let you all know that we are hated by our 10-year-olds as they desperately wanted to kick us aside and interview today's guest. Her books are beloved by children that age everywhere. Welcome, Liz. Do we say Pichon? Pichon? It's Pichon. Pon very posh it's very french it is french it's monsieur pichon way way way back it's like my on my dad's side like some sort of great great great grandpa but um i don't speak french and when i was at school i had to i had to suffer the pitch on pichon pea shooter pick on you name it whenever a teacher or somebody started you know like not knowing what the the surname was I knew it was always mine but is that why you gave the character you're most famous

for Tom Gates a very easy to pronounce easy to understand name I wasn't quite that um thoughtful about it to be honest sound like our kind of gal. Yeah, it's very much like, you know, you just draw lots of characters. Kids often ask me why, you know, why the character's called that and why it's a boy and not a girl and that kind of thing. And it was really, you know, when you're writing a story, because it took me a long time to come up with the idea. I've been sort of percolating it for a long time. And I just did lots and lots of drawings. And then this character kept being drawn and kept popping up. And then when you look at it, when you look at him, you just think he just looks like a Tom. And I just wanted a sort of short,

snappy name. So take us back for a minute. Tell us any sweat, snottled tears in the house that you're in this morning. No, this is our grown up house. Lucky bugger. A grown up house and a child house explain explain explain um so I'm in Mallorca at the moment and I discovered that actually not having ever written anything very much before I did Tom Gates I'd done picture books in order to get the work done in the writing I started having to sort of go away I mean I had to lock myself away or go away and I would finally like go to a hotel or something and just try and zone in to what I was doing because I had so many deadlines and so really luckily like five years ago we decided we'd actually get somewhere to go and we smart can I suddenly realize it's the first

time ever in our lives we've been married for 32 years in April, that we could actually put things in the house from scratch, you know, like put things in that we liked. And so it's what I call our grown up house. It's totally, you know, lights, fairy lights. It's got all the open staircase, you know, the lot, everything that you just wouldn't have if you had small children. This place has it. So how old are your kids now? My son's 31, just turned 31. You don't look old enough to have a 31 year old. Yeah, nice lighting ladies yeah my son's 31 um just gone March just passed my daughter's 27 and my youngest is uh 22 so hang on were your kids when you started

writing Tom were your kids older because imagine what it's going to be like when you've got kind of like nine-year-old grandchildren and granny writes Tom Gates. How cool is that going to be? You know, I can't even think that far ahead. I'm so lucky to have children, but it was never really part, you know, I never really thought about it. I had friends that sort of thought about having kids and it never really wasn't like a conscious decision. So it's been so my kids were when Tom Gates first came out my daughter was 12 and you know and actually I think looking back it probably happened at a really good time for me I

mean I did pitch books and juggled furiously when they were younger you know writing and doing things but when Tom Gates happened I don't think I would have been able to do as much it really happened at the right time I was able to sort of throw myself into it a lot more and also you know doing you know more things like the traveling and stuff like that was a lot easier because they were older. It's only in researching this that I found out that you've got a podcast as well. I do yeah actually we started doing it last year it's called 10 Tremendous Tales of Elizabethan I had to remember it then and it's basically I you know I mean so like you do I had to remember it then. And it's basically, you know, like you do, I meet lots of really interesting people.

And I wanted to get them to talk about, you know, something that's happened in their lives. One of the things when I talk to kids, they always really, they always wonder how you make that jump, how do you do what you do. And so much of what I write about happened were stories and things that happened to me when happened were stories and things that happened to me when I was younger, or things that happened to you, that, you know, your failures, you know,

things that have happened, stories at school, all that kind of thing. So it's lots of really interesting people talking about their tremendous tales, how they started, something that happened to them. Snacks feature quite a lot. If you're a writer, you have to keep yourself going with lots of snacks. And in the book, Tom's very keen on the snack. So we talk about their favourite snack, how to eat it. And then they tell a tremendous fail as well. So something that they've done that hasn't quite worked out. So they can tell us what's happened to them.

And also I give them a shameless plug. So they're allowed to, rather than that awkward situation in interviews where you have to try and shoehorn in literally your sort of latest book or anything. We give over to them as much time as they want to talk about whatever project it is. So it's their shameless plug. Well, should we do that? Liz, your shameless plug. So I've got a book coming out at the end of March. Ten Tremendous Tales is out in paperback. I've got a book at the moment called You Can Draw Tom Gates with Liz Pichon and it's like an activity book so it's got lots of, I've put loads of things in there, how to draw some of the characters, how to do the fonts, little tips

and tricks, how to draw on things so if you've got kids that are really interested in activities and making things and you don't have to be you know brilliant at drawing that's the great thing about this style that I've done you know kids can really get into it and enjoy it so that's coming out in March the TV show got series two which is out at the moment as well I'll be here for ages now so excited I was just gonna say when you start because you started out as an illustrator didn't you and then you moved into writing I did yeah I was a graphic I trained say trained that's very loose there um as a graphic designer you know I wanted to do illustration but my tutors at college sort of took her there was a tumbleweed moment when I said oh I'd like to do illustration and they all looked at me and went no we think you should do graphics and actually it was useful learning about you know typesetting and layouts

and things like that for the book world but I kind of rebelled in my own small way and every graphic project I got I used to try and do it in an illustrative way but um yeah so I did graphic design and my first job that I got I mean I did lots of other things in between but the first kind of like real job I had was working for what I thought was going to be very glamorous and working for a record label. So I designed album covers. Sounds super glam. Tell us some records that you designed for. I thought this was going to be like, you know, really exciting and amazing.

And I got the job and then it was a company called Jive Records, which used to have several different companies. And they had a recording studio across the road. It's based in Wilsdon. And it's really weird, actually, because I went to school in Kilburn. And when I was a kid and I used to go to, they used to take us to the sports field quite a long way on the coach. We used to drive past this building in Wilsdon High Road. And I remember looking at it as a kid thinking, what is that building? What is it? It had these tiny little windows, which obviously had album covers in it. And then

later on, I discovered that it's a record label. And that's where I was working. So I recognised it from when I was a kid. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be very glamorous, had the interview, there was all these gold discs everywhere. And then when I actually got the job, what they didn't tell me was the art department was just me and this other guy called Jonathan and they took me downstairs out of the building past the bins and into a porter cabin yeah and so that was me and that was in the days when you know people could smoke so Jonathan used to smoke as well that'd be like the cloud of smoke in a porter cabin like trying to do all this work and then they decided to expand the department and one day a great big crane came along and they put another porter cab on the top so that was my

start so it was amazing though because you know in I we just got to do everything I had no idea what I was doing like a lot of people when you first start out, I just kind of, you know, I didn't really know anything about how to do proper artwork. It used to take me ages as well. I mean, there weren't any computers or anything. So you'd have to do everything by hand with lots of cow gum and sticking and ordering bits of text and things. So I kind of learned on the job, but it meant I got to work with artists I had to do the album design I had to go to the photo sessions organize you know the photo shoots hairdressers stylists everything who did you do which albums I was really fortunate I got to work with Billy Ocean a couple of times I love Billy Ocean he was so lovely and I also worked with Ruby Turner so I did one of her album covers um

jive records used to have they were incredibly cool in america they used to have sort of ll cool j and cool modi and all these other sort of rap acts but we never did any of those artists they the americans already had their own album covers but we did have silver tone was part of zomba records and they were the stone roses they did their albums but which i never got to do because they always used to do their own covers so it was a bit of a mad time and i think looking back i also realized very quickly that um you know i wanted to do with more of my own work i wasn't really getting much of my own illustration work done so i used to design the covers for Chapel Music and

Bruton Music, who were, they were library music companies within Jive Records, and nobody was interested in doing those because they didn't get put out, they weren't sold. So I used to do all those album covers, like classical music covers and things, and just do my illustrations and collages. Now how does an illustrator who's doing album covers and is dyslexic become a children's book writer? After I worked at Jive some of my illustrations got used on products on t-shirts and things like that for merchandise and then I started to do greeting cards so I took a portfolio of work there's a fair up in Birmingham every year because the spring fair and I remember like lots of illustrators you'd spot each other you'd all be walking around desperate with your

portfolio desperately trying to show people some work and I got some work for a greeting card company so I started doing sort of cats and dogs and you know some of them were quite successful and that's when publishers and people started to see my animals and creatures. And I started to get asked to illustrate other people's books and other people's stories. So, you know, I mean, I had no idea about how to illustrate a book. But, you know, after when you've done a few of them and you kind of get that rhythm and you realize how much work and how long it takes to do a picture book. You know, they're so labor intensive intensive they're like the really good ones so I sort of learn on the job a bit about how you know what kind of books and then you start to think you know what if I write my own stories

then I won't have to wait for somebody to give me a job you know and I was doing it I was illustrating for I did Enid Blyton's Bible stories once I mean I'd literally just take I'd take anything you know I would look at jobs that would come in and sort of say if I do that job then that's my you know the mortgage or that's a bill and so I wasn't really thinking about what kind of books that I actually really wanted to do I was just doing whatever you know as a freelancer wanted to do. I was just doing whatever, you know, as a freelancer, whatever comes my way, I was just having a go. So if you were going to give advice to if there are any dyslexic children listening now, with your experience, what would you say to them? What advice would you give them?

I would say, I mean, somehow I've managed to make what I loved doing as a kid, everything I'm doing now. I mean, literally everything, making things, drawing. I've managed to end up making a living from it somehow. And I'd say for kids that are dyslexic, just don't give up. Just be persistent. Do the things that you enjoy doing. Find that book that really, you know, sets your imagination going. And, you know, there are ways to do things. I mean, I think throughout my whole life, I've been trying to find ways to do things that I shouldn't really be able to do. You know, I mean, I'm still terrible at spelling. I'm still terrible at, you know, like some of what I look back at some of the emails I send and it's like, oh, God, that went a bit quick.

Tweeting is like a nightmare. Trying to check my spelling. I just don't see it. But you get help. I have brilliant editors and people that will look over your work. And I think for children that are dyslexic, it just feels to them that there's a whole world that isn't open to them. And actually, you have other skills and you see things in a different way to other people do. And it's really important. Isn't it that storytelling isn't about good spelling?

Exactly. Being an amazing storyteller is about having an incredible imagination, being able to reflect on the things that entertain you, like you just said, and then share that with other people. It's got naff all to do with spelling, really. I wouldn't be able to pass it. You know, I don't know about adverbs and all the rest of it. It's like when you're in the music industry as well. You see lots of amazing musicians that don't necessarily know, can't read music, but they learn from listening. And, you know, you learn as you go along you're not always the finished thing when you start off and the more you do something the better you get at it so I

think if children have got a real passion for something it's so easy especially nowadays to see that light go out I mean it happens all the time even in primary schools to secondary schools you know you get kids that are really enthusiastic about drawing and making things and creating and then they go to secondary school and somewhere along the line, they're told that that's not important. And they just go, I don't want to do it anymore. That's it. What would you say to grownups who say that kids shouldn't read illustrated books, that they should, you know, knuckle down and read War and Peace by the time they're 11? I think we need creativity in every area of life and work.

I heard a politician, it was quite a while ago, but I remember them hearing somebody saying about a teacher was teaching, they had a lesson on how to make a poster and he was like, oh, if my child was spending their time doing that, I'd be furious. And it made me furious because a poster and how you see information and the visual side of things, that's advertising, that's a website, that's a book cover. You know, learning how to put all those things together is so important. I've worked for medical publishers and not many people may know this, but in medicine and science, you have to present your information as posters. That's how you present it to other people so that is infuriating to hear I heard a doctor talking about a surgeon saying that the students that they get in now because they don't do so many crafts and things in schools a lot of the student they they turn up they've got no fine

motor school skills for sewing because they're not used to using their you know doing that side of it and there are so many things that need creativity in them and that is I think it's a really big problem it's something that we're really brilliant at at this in this country as well and this idea that if you're good at that those subjects that it's not important and it doesn't you know you can't transfer those skills into other things I look at what's happened now just from my drawings and doodles. And I think because of my background in working at the record label, always seeing how music was so important and visuals and album covers, it all kind of ties in. So I've always done that right from the very beginning. My books have included, you know, lyrics and songs, and we've turned them into

real songs. So all the things that I've done right from the beginning have given Tom Gates' world a bigger life. And, you know, now I look at it and I think I've got books, got the TV show, you know, the booksellers. I've had printers in the UK. All the books, the Tom Gates books are printed over here. There's such a big industry that's come from just my little drawings and doodles, which I'm incredibly proud of. And I think, you you know sometimes when you get told that it's not important or you you know it is so it can be and even if you just do it for fun it's a way of getting your stories out of your head and onto a piece of paper.

Not everything has to be done for any great purpose other than just entertaining yourself or entertaining someone else right? yeah exactly it's just about enjoyment it's about being able to sort of you know express yourself and watching your your child pick up that book that physical book which is so important to them and reading it and seeing themselves sort of reflected in it or just laughing it's just it's it's something that I'm you know I'm really that's been amazing I've never expected it to happen but I'm whenever I go's been amazing. I've never expected it to happen, but I'm, whenever I go into the supermarket and I see all my books in there, I'm always like, I'm always turning them face on. Oh, I love that you still get a bit choked up by it. That's lovely.

I really do. Yeah. Well, and thank you for doing it for our kids. Cause I think your books help our kids know they're not alone. Your books show them that other people get their sense of humour. And do you know what I mean I've been doing them now for 10 years and I think every time I do a book there's always this feeling that you're you know you want to make it better than the last one or you want to try and put things in it that are exciting because you cannot hoodwink children if they feel like they're being you know short-changed you can't if they feel like they're being short changed know, shortchanged, you can't. If they feel like they're being shortchanged, you know,

that you're skipping or it's not as good as nothing, they'll tell you it's never going to work. So I always try and do that and put lots of extra things in. And also it's more fun for me as well. So Liz, I'm going to end with a really highbrow question. What's for tea, Liz, and who's cooking in your grown-up house with no children? I'm on my own. I'm actually on my own for, I've got a couple of weeks here on my own because I'm writing. You lucky bugger. Oh, what I'd give for two weeks on my own in Mallorca right now.

Well, the weather is not that great here at the moment. I have to say, I've been looking at the weather in Brighton and it's all sunny. And they haven't had any much rain here since November. So I feel a bit bad sort of grumbling about it because actually they really need the rain. So it'll just be me. It's not whatever's in the fridge or I might even just go and get a coffee and go out somewhere. I'm cooking pizza for one, two, three, four, eight kids tonight. I've been there and I've done all those things. I've literally been the person sort of juggling I've you know when I first started doing greeting cards and I was freelance I didn't tell any of the people that I was working for that I was expect that I was pregnant I can remember sort of dropping bits

of artwork off wearing a big puffer jacket because I thought if people knew that I was expecting a baby they wouldn't give me any more work so I just didn't tell anyone and then after I'd had my son um I had to go sort of you know give I was still able to do little bits of you know greeting card work and I had to drop some artwork off because you had to do it physically then and I had to take my son with me in his little carry cop so I remember turning up at this company and they they were the receptionist was going like whose baby's that and I was like it's mine this is my son they had no idea well I am glad the world has moved on and on that note have a lovely weekend Liz well as you've heard no one's having a better time than me thank you for your time Liz it's been lovely to meet you. All right. Thank you very much. Take care.