The Netmums Podcast - S1 Ep77: Angela Scanlon on new motherhood, gratitude and eating disorders.

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

Annie and Wendy are joined by TV's Angela Scanlon, as she explains her trepidation at telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in her new book 'Joyrider'.

This episode is sponsored by Fry's Family Foods to celebrate the launch of their new tea time saviour, the totally delicious and 100% vegan Stars and Moons. The breaded shapes are a great source of fibre and protein, ideal if you want more meat-free meals for the kids. They cook from the freezer in just 10 minutes, which means I already love them. A fuss-free kids tea time that you know they'll polish off, yes please. Now, on with the show. You're listening to Sweat, Snot and Tears, brought to you by Netmums. I'm Annie O'Leary. And I'm Wendy College. And together

we talk about all of this week's sweaty, snotty and tearful parenting moments with guests who are far more interesting than we are. On this week's show, when I got pregnant, I did kind of surrender a bit. You know, I was like, this, it's not just about me anymore. It was quite uncomfortable. I did feel like I had been kind of inhabited by an alien. I suppose I realized that my, a lot of my identity as well as in how I dress and how I express myself and how I kind of, you know, what I wear. And suddenly a lot of that was taken away from me because my particular style didn't really work with a bump um and I had to change a lot of that. Welcome to another episode of Sweats Not in Tears. I have big news we got a puppy yesterday uh all sounds fun doesn't it but

Simon was up three times with him in the night and we're now having desperate conversations about sleep training and it's feeling very reminiscent of the baby years. Wendy, send help, please. You've got to help me. I know you're further down the road with Hector than I am with Murphy and this is pretty bloody terrible, actually. Well, you've made the first big mistake. You went in. You've got to start with the tough love straight from the beginning with puppies. You can't. When he's crying in the night, you wouldn't do that to a Bam Bam baby, would you? You are making a rod for your own back. My back is full of rods. That is how my back came. Well, the thing is, with puppies, you've just got to grow a pair.

I'm sorry, it's not like a baby. Just keep remembering it is a dog. No, but he's tiny and he misses his mum. Introduce the guest. I can't help you. All right, well, she's actually got a real-life baby, so actually this is a far more important conversation to be having. Welcome, Angela Scanlon, and congratulations on the baby. Thank you. I was also up in. Thank you.

I was also up in solidarity with you. How is the sleep? Is she sleeping? Does she sleep? What happens? Do you know what? Depends on the night, doesn't it? And I'm kind of trying just to not overanalyze it.

I mean, to be honest with my first little one, the anxiety of the potential that I might lack sleep. Like I was thinking about the lack of sleep before it even happened. I was quite a princess. Oh, yeah. The whole day before the night is just spent worrying and planning. Totally. So now I am. Yeah, I'm just like leaning into the to the madness. But she's all right. She went down at like what time?

She's 12 weeks. Went down around the like eight o'clock mark and was a bit overtired, bless her. And then I got her up and gave her a little dreamy feed, which I don't do often because usually I try to go to bed like a nana at 9pm latest. Guys, I still do it now. And my eldest is 10. It's the only way to live. I'm telling you.

I agree. I completely agree. And I'm unashamed about my need for multiple hours in a row sleep. So anyway, I gave her a little dreamy feed. And to be honest, I don't know if that worked for me because usually she's quite a quiet sleeper, unlike eldest who was a little truffle pig and you could hear her oh it's like having a hedgehog in the bedroom yeah that was such a surprise to me I moved both of my babies into another room at six weeks because it was like sleeping with a cross between a drunk man and a hedgehog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they puke on you too. But she was kind of trufflier last night.

And I thought maybe because I fed her. I don't know. Anyway, she woke at around half two, I think, and then at half five and then at half six. Dream feeds never worked for me because they just woke up and then were like, oh, hi, should we play? Yeah, it's a real mixed bag. I did try it before, but I pumped a lot on my first

and I was trying it with the bottle and I put it in and she'd be like spitting it out. Whereas this is kind of, you know, it's slightly more difficult to do a dream feed if they're, you know, falling asleep on your tit. Lots of things are more difficult if someone's falling asleep on your tit, in truth. Put plainly, yes.

True, true story. How is Ruby getting to grips with having a sister? She is, she's getting to grips, literally. Depends, like, she's, it's really mixed. She's starting to know, Marnie's starting to smile and she's starting to, like like she lights up when Ruby's around you know once the initial fear crosses her face um but she and that's kind of changed the game really for Rubes because up until now I think she was just like oh my god my mom is so dry

every time I go near this little thing she's like no mind mind and so I think uh yeah she's starting to get a bit back from from the baby and therefore is less resentful but they like to show their love physically don't they very physically I want to do this to the baby and the baby has no it's a bit like Annie with darling puppy Murphy that her little girl's trying to swaddle. Oh, my God. She's determined that he will be swaddled and pushed around in a pram. And he can't, he doesn't want any of that. I see lots of dogs. We live near Highgate Woods and there's a lot of them.

There's quite a few dogs in prams, which always strikes me as like quite mental. But, you know, whatever you're're into we had a cat once called marmalade it was that color and uh we did similar thing to your daughter we would have like um plant pots I mean maybe this is not similar but I we we made like a little clothesline and we thought that we were putting it in you know what would you call that a zip line kind of so the little kitten was in the pot oh yeah I'm really sorry if any of you can hear that slightly what was that noise truffle pigs underneath your desk no it's there's my cleaners are here and they're in the bathroom upstairs which has got like a mosaic tiled floor hoovering I hope

but it's only a very small bathroom so they'll be done in a minute. They're lovely but they're Hungarian and they only know hello, goodbye and coffee. Okay. So they walk in and say hello, coffee and then we do some sort of Google translate business where I try and tell them that I'm recording a podcast and could they kindly hoover downstairs first. Oh, yeah. Not thinking. I have a cleaner who's the most timid, like wonderful woman.

She listens to Buddhist meditations as she cleans and she's like this, you know, she's got this delicious aura. Does she sprinkle Zen all around your house she did i mean kind of like you'd think by what she was consuming that she would sprinkle zen and sometimes i'll give her cacao and we'll have a lovely little moment and then she'll go upstairs and honestly it is like she's really petite it feels like the floor is going to collapse underneath her she really really gets into it you can hear it like that you can hear the banging I'm like what is she doing are the glass doors going to come off the shower she's she's committed well that well it's better than not being committed

well it and also it could be worse we had a cleaner when the kids were like your age who I would put them down for a nap she'd show up two minutes later she'd appear with them in her arms saying oh I don't think they were ready to sleep honestly I would like don't touch a baby it nearly drove me demented right Angela getting down to business we've woken up to you being all over the papers this morning oh god oh really oh shit she doesn't know um I don't know what's happened excerpts from your memoir have revealed that you suffered with an eating disorder and the world seems rather surprised she's laughing I love it just because if you could see her face it it's like, well, this morning this has happened. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. What do you want me to say?

Everyone's like shock horror. Like no one expects a capable woman to have had struggled with anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, hello, we're all human. Yes. Yeah. And look, I mean, I think that's part of the, well, it was certainly part of my motivation to write the book because, you know, and I say this loosely, my brand, you know, is like positive and upbeat and colourful and, you know, joyful. And actually, I think for me, there was always kind of a disconnect and this was personally, but it was probably heightened because of the perception of me professionally um but yeah absolutely I mean my belief I suppose is that

joy and the book is called Joyrider and so it and it's packaged in a very colorful cover and I think it's maybe surprised some people that inside it's not all you know unicorns and bubbles but with light there comes shade do you know what I mean 100% and then I think you cannot access joy unless you've been unless you've dug around in the stuff and you wouldn't be human if there weren't things that had bothered you or troubled you or, you know, like we all have our crosses to bear, right? So what made you decide to stick it in the book? I mean, honestly, I guess that light and shade. I think we can all appear very one dimensional and Instagram and social media and kind of creates this persona.

And like when you're in the public eye, that again can be a kind of magnified version of that. And people see you as very, yeah, like a certain list of attributes rather than a full, whole, complex person. And I I've never spoken about it before. I have kind of on occasions really wanted to. I actually did speak about it but it went under the radar thankfully um on I say thankfully I think I probably wasn't ready but I interviewed Catlin Moran I sat in um on um Saturday morning live with Richard uh Cole and um yeah Catlin was on and she was she was talking about her book and her daughter's experience with an eating disorder. And I we spoke about it off air and then I kind of half went into it on air.

But I could feel at the time like how activated I was talking about it. I was like, oh, I really need to like control, I suppose, how I how I speak about it and to be fully ready to talk about it, I guess. But honestly, I think when I was growing up, there was no point of reference, a person that I could relate to who spoke openly about it, who had come through it and who had a life that looked, you know, shiny and a relationship that seemed normal and things that were good. And so I kind of, you know, and I've spoken about this and I think it was included in the article that maybe you're referencing is that there were two people, Karen Carpenter, who sadly died from complications with anorexia and Geri Halliwell, who to my mind, certainly, you know, Spice Girls were gods to me. And I remember her autobiography

and it was clear that she was struggling. Anyone who kind of would have had insight into that would probably have guessed, but she wrote about it in her autobiography. And it was one of the instances that stuck out to me and that was picked out of it was her at George Michael's party. And she had gone through a bin and taken cake out and it was kind of ridiculed. So it felt quite shameful for me. It felt like an embarrassing thing. It certainly wasn't something to be celebrated. I mean, not that you would celebrate it necessarily, but I think it felt like something that needed to be hidden and pushed down. Kept under the covers. Yeah.

Exactly. And the more I did that, the more I realized that that's the issue, not the issue itself. The eating disorder is not really the problem. The silencing of it and the suppressing of it and the hiding of it is actually much more harmful, you know, and does much more damage really so um yeah I kind of wanted for the young version of me who was in that little hole and who felt very isolated and very lonely and very you know sure that I'd never have a different experience um to yeah kind of offer a little bit of a little bit of hope but how does it feel now that it's out there do you feel a bit raw and exposed or do you feel all right I feel raw as hell I cried all of yesterday and I totally oh I wasn't expecting it at all because you know sometimes you do and it's similar with tv stuff I you work on it and then it's launched into the world and it's only on that day that it really hits you like that you're you know exposed I suppose but why did it make you

cry yesterday what was the what were the tears but was it almost a relief or was it uh oh what have I done I can't put it back in the box now both both both I got so many lovely messages from people saying thank you so much and I really think this will help and I feel seen and it's not talked about enough and all of those kind of things. But then I thought, oh my God, I cannot, I can't put it back in the box, you know? And I don't want to. And I was very, you know, I don't know, sometimes I'm a bit reckless and I kind of throw things out there and I think everything will be fine. And I don't really think about the consequences of it. And actually, I think that is probably the right thing to do. And it felt very heart led, I suppose, and like something I just had to. And if I was writing a book and the book is about joy

and it's about gratitude and it is a very, you know, there's a ton of tools and tips and methods that I've used. So it was just that kind of sense that there needed to be a truth in there, I think. And my feeling is that that kind of joy and certainly my journey, if you like, has been that it's been quite harder and, you know, and I've kind of constantly been looking for that. I've gotten lots of gotten to lots of different places. My focus was was very often on on work and achievement and getting to those kind of next next stages, the next thing on a list and not really feeling anything at all, never mind joy. And so I had to kind of strip everything, everything back, I think. How did you get to the point where you had overcome it enough to feel like you were able to get to a point of joy but also how was pregnancy in the light of an eating disorder because pregnancy makes it makes eating hard for lots of people anyway

in it makes keeping stuff down hard for lots of people and then your body changes phenomenally yeah this feels quite foreign but you know what I actually think a lot of the time my body did feel quite foreign even when it it was you know it didn't feel like and look I suppose so many people equate an eating disorder with body image, that it's a purely visual thing. And actually, I think it's, you know, it's an addiction really like any other. And so it's a place to escape. It's a place to, you know, to control, to kind of feel like you're completely distracting and consumed by something that allows you to feel less overwhelmed by, you know, the bigness of life or feelings or decisions or whatever it might be. It's a coping mechanism. And, you know, and obviously, it comes down to your body image is a massive part of that. I don't think people have eating disorders in order to stay skinny, let's say.

It's not that. It's a much more complex thing. And so like alcoholics don't. Yeah, they don't just love vodka. Exactly. So I think, yeah, for me, my body was always kind of a complicated place for me to live. And so when I got pregnant, I did kind of surrender a bit. You know, I was like, OK, it's not just about me anymore. It was quite uncomfortable. I did

feel like I had been kind of inhabited by an alien. And, you know, I suppose I realised that a lot of my identity as well is in how I dress and how I express myself and how I kind of, you know, what I wear. And suddenly a lot of that was taken away from me because my particular style didn't really work with a bump. And yeah, so I had to kind of, I had to change a lot of that. But I did focus or I tried at least to focus more on the kind of nutrition side of things. And truthfully, at that stage, and I speak about this in the book, unknowingly, I had kind of shifted my addiction, my food addiction to a work addiction. So in theory, I was cured of all of those issues. Did you ever get help? I got help briefly when I was much

younger but it was kind of a I was dialing it in I had I had spoken to my parents and kind of in a in a state of desperation gone I really need help and there's a show called The Late Late Show and there had been a therapist on it's quite a mixed mixed bag. It's a chat show, but they have all sorts on. And weirdly, you know, my parents kind of didn't really know as as most parents didn't probably particularly then didn't really know what to do with me. And and and then this psychologist was on and there were there was a clinic a clinic that specialised in eating disorders. And my mum took me for a period there. But I wasn't, I mean, again, like any addiction, you know, you can dial it in. But if you're not really prepared and wanting to get help, then it doesn't really do very much.

Was becoming a mum then almost harder though giving up work then? 100%. So I had done the shift and then everything so all of my focus was on work, my distraction, my coping mechanism, everything was funneled into that. And this thing that you were good at and doing well at and if you just keep feeding it I'll keep feeling good and then that's all fine and that's all fine. Yes and also you're rewarded massively for a work addiction you know socially particularly if you're shiny and on the telly you know you're rewarded financially you're doing really well look at you we can all see you and people say look you're great I love you on that you're so good isn't Angela flying isn't her career doing well exactly yeah and that become like it does feed it feeds

the beast so to speak and then suddenly yeah I and and to your point I was very you know very competent I was very good at work I always showed up to work I was really good at achieving things and then suddenly I became a mother yeah and an achievement is having a shower in the morning. Totally. And I felt really overwhelmed. And also I didn't know what I was doing. And now I realize that that's quite a normal feeling, but it felt very unique to me. I had exactly the same. I completely lost who I was because who I was was getting up and going to work and being a journalist. And then I had this little person and nobody told me how to do it. I didn't know what to do. And I think if you're used to being good, I'm very competitive. I win. I'm good at things. And then suddenly I was like, I am really

shit at this gig. You know, I did not know. And the kind of overwhelming sense of need, really, really, and I wasn't aware of it at that point because I wasn't aware that I had any needs at that point. But suddenly waking up in the middle of the night, I had mastitis. I thought I had a fever. I was like, please, can you go to the kitchen and get me something so I don't die? Like, you know, it was this kind of wild sense of dependency on my husband, on people around me. And then the dependency of a baby on you was like, oh dear God, I don't know what I'm doing. And if you're so uptight, you often aren't the one that can solve, you feel like you can't solve

your baby's problem. I've done all of the things they told me would work and nothing's worked you're still crying what yes yeah and I think for me I was so like disconnected from myself that I wasn't even I couldn't really tune into her you know so it was like it was exactly that I list I was kind of you know and I breastfed and it was really really difficult and she had a tongue tie and I had a nipple infection by the time I even left the hospital but I was so determined to breastfeed because in my mind that was like a physical thing that I could do that I knew was right quote unquote the right thing to do and it was like oh god you're me I'm literally having slight palpitations because I did all the same things I'm like getting a bit like oh god I know and it's really and it's in hindsight I'm like oh that kind of cruel voice that we all you know many people will identify with and you

might not even hear it kind of whispering because it's so insidious but it's kind of that sense of like you you've nothing you don't have anything really to give here so you better give that boob you better feed her like the physical need I could fulfill. I just wasn't sure how to fulfill any of those other needs. And that was like, you know, in my own life as well as hers. But it was also the kind of turning point for me where I went, you know what? I might not at that point, you know, love or like myself enough to actually recognize there's a problem here and that I deserve to get help with. But I did think I do not want to pass this on to my daughter. And I thought, I went to therapy and I've been going ever since.

It was kind of that, like, I was just like, I need to hand this over. And I had kind of, you know, been dabbling in and out and I tried meditation. I'd done lots of stuff up until that point. And then I thought I really need to bring in the big guns. And that kind of sense of, of like surrendering into somebody who maybe was able to guide me a bit more, um, really helped. And then it allowed me to kind of, uh, look at all of the other tools that I had dipped in and out of and actually really get something out of them, not just use them. Because up until that point, a lot of them were just, you know, it was a plaster, it was quite

surface. But until I started really getting down and dirty and digging, it didn't really change. And is that why you wrote the book? Is that, is this journey what's led to Joyride, your book? 100%. Yeah. And it was that kind of, that shift. I was like, oh my God, I was in that place where it was, it was, you know, I had had those experiences where in work, I had gotten to that point and gone, oh, is that it? And thought and thought shit I don't think I'm ever going to be really happy I thought that would make me feel full and you know um content and it didn't who was it who said it's like climbing to get to the top of the mountain and getting to the top of the mountain and realizing there's nothing in there I don't know but I hear them it's exactly that

and I mean in a way it's an absolute gift. And I feel really grateful that I had kind of achieved things that I thought were completely out of reach. So I was able to go, okay, no, no, no, it's not beyond, you've gotten the thing that was on your little list there. You've gotten it and you still don't feel the things that you thought you'd feel. So it was a kind of, okay, something has got to change because that list is not, the ticking off of that list is not doing it for you. And then I had my baby and I was like, I could see. And I know it's quite toxic in many ways, but that I could look around on Instagram and see all of these people having these beautiful, wholesome, intimate experiences of motherhood, fresh

motherhood. I was like, shit, this is supposed to be, you know, the most joyful, like complicated, no doubt, but the most joyful little experience of my life. And I'm completely numb to it, really. And that was, it was a massive, massive wake up call for me. And so I, that was really the kind of point where I started to, yeah, to shift and to invest, I suppose, you know, not just cash, but actual time into discovering and trying to get to know myself. And I talk about this in the book a lot, that kind of sense of being really surprised. And I saw Ruby come up to this when she was a little bit older, go into the mirror and look at herself and be like, hey girl, she was like properly looking at herself in such a beautifully kind of loving way. Like only a child can. And I thought, oh my

God, she is mad about herself. She really loves herself. And I thought, I, my God, she is mad about herself. She really loves herself. And I thought, I don't. And that is all you want for your kids, right? It's all you want. But it also acutely made me aware of how I did not love myself. I didn't even know myself. And so I was like, OK, I really need to to get back to that or to attempt to kind of rediscover that little whole child part of me. And so, yeah, gratitude played a big part of that. That kind of practice and practice. I hate the word consistency. Hate it.

Habit. Hate it. All of those boring, dull things that squares do. I was like, fuck it. I got into this job so that I didn't have to play by any of the rules I could get up at whatever time I wanted I could do whatever um I wanted and actually those habits and routines and practices the boring bits work totally and to access that kind of feeling I was like oh wow and I I always resisted because I can get be quite high and then there are lows.

So like when I'm up, I'm absolutely invincible. I can do anything. I pitch stuff. I kind of feel like limitless in terms of what I can do. I mean, often misjudged, but it's fine that the horse is bolted at that point. And then the payoff for that is the kind of, oh, you know, there's there's a bit of a come down and I really resisted I hated that and now I'm like you know what those the kind of the highs and and the lows are are all part of it and actually um neither of those states I think sometimes I thought what I was what I was aiming for was like this constant high the media and Instagram tell us to aim for that. Sorry, Instagram labeling. It doesn't always tell us that obviously, but the things that we consume

make it feel like that's what we should all be aiming for is this constant high because you only see the high on there. Completely. And it's such a lie, you know, it's such a lie you know it's such and it actually does it really um I think it's it's really dangerous I suppose because it's so uh it's so subtle in a way you know I think historically and there's always been that sense of of comparison you know and I write about this in the book historically that was you know the chick in the village who was good at procreating or who had fabulous hair or whatever it might be um and then you know now it's kind of you wake up in the morning and you compare yourself to teenage philanthropists and billionaires and kind of there is are endless people that are literally living in your bed before you get out. And you think, fuck it, what's the point in even getting up if you're comparing yourself to that level?

And I think comparison is great. It can push you on. It can spur you to do things. It can, yeah, inspire. That continuous habit of looking outward and comparing yourself and falling short and focusing on what you don't have as opposed to coming back and going, look at what I do have. That's where gratitude comes in. Now, back to Fry's Family Foods, totally tasty stars and moons. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for easy ways to feed my kids more plant-based meals. And these fun-breaded shapes are just the job. A source of protein and fibre, they make a brilliant swap

for the usual chicken nuggets. They're also Netmums recommended, which if I say so myself, is kind of a big deal. In a poll of 50 Netmums members, 98% said they'd recommend Fries, Moons and Stars to friends and family. That's good enough for me. Pick up a pack of Fries, Stars and Moons from Iceland or the food warehouse. Now back to the guest. Was gratitude the antidote to all of it for you? 100%. And I started, and the book's called Joyrider, and I talk about joyriding and this kind of idea of like, of shifting your state. And to me, that felt like a really empowered thing to do that you're like, okay, if I wake up and I don't feel great, I have the capacity and the

tools within me to kind of, you know, shift. And I remember being in a flat in London, I was in a really like not a great place mentally and financially and every other way. And I bought myself some really fabulous sheets. And I was like, okay, it's the first thing when I wake up in the morning, what do I do? How do I kind of create this state? Because otherwise you're kind of entering into the world, hoping that somebody will allow you to feel good or bad, but you're kind of giving that power to somebody else and always hoping for external validation. People are too frigging busy to give it to you anyway. But so I would wake in the morning and go, oh my God, the feeling of these sheets. And when you've come from like those,

like crusty, hard, cheap sheets, you're like, oh, babe, this is delicious. All about the sheets. And then I got like a little sheepskin mat I put it on the floor and so it was the first thing that my feet would touch I'd get in the shower I'd get like smell like prop I mean ultimately it's presence but it's kind of this idea of really feeling in and appreciating and like opening your wardrobe and going how lucky am I to have these ridiculous clothes to put on me every day and to dress myself to express myself and then you know that's good okay but like then somebody spills coffee on you in the coffee shop or you're in a traffic jam or the tube is out of whack or whatever it might

be it's it's flexing that muscle on a continuous basis so when the shit hits the fan, you're able to move, you know, to move a gear really and to get back into that state and to know that you have the capacity within you to change how you feel. It's kind of setting down an anchor for the day, isn't it? It's saying I'm going to anchor myself in a great place. And if waves come, well, fuck them. Yes, exactly. And if waves come, fuck them. And also sometimes if they come, like you want it, like it's not, because I do think there's a lot to your point of that kind of toxic positivity. And it's like just paper over the cracks, you know, hashtag blessed and everything's fine.

And that's a really hollow feeling as well. And you can do it. But if you're not kind of. um yeah it doesn't feel real it's not real and it's not um it's not human and I think it's sometimes if the waves come do like let them take you out and and fall under the weight of them we all need a good cry now and again I love a good cry. Wendy and I are big fans, aren't we, Wendell? Our husbands less so. We used to meet in the toilet at Endeavour House on Shaftesbury Avenue in London for a scheduled sob. It was the thing. But it was great. Got us through. It's great. So tell us, I need to know now. I think I might know that the answer is that the baby's still asleep

but what are you grateful for right now that um I'm actually grateful for this chat because truthfully I did have this book is this the right thing I'm this is week of publication I don't know when this episode goes out but I'm like the Monday, the book comes out on Thursday. And I've had this like wild vulnerability hangover. And I have this sense that... It's a big thing you've done. It's a big, big, big, big thing. Honestly, but I was so like, you know, maybe I was in a high when I handed it in. And then suddenly I'm like, oh, hang on. I'm not fixed, which is really key to know that I do not purport to be

fixed on any level. But I am kind of grateful for that honesty and the connection. And I think, you know, truthfully, I kind of made a deal with myself last year and, you know, and maybe it's my personality, but this, and maybe it's society, who knows um but that kind of sense of waiting until things are perfect conditions are perfect to do the things and and you end up doing nothing because because the moment never comes you do nothing because you're never quite ready and you look around and you think how bloody dare she write a book I didn't do it because I didn't have the balls to do it or I wasn't ready enough or whatever else and you think oh my bloody dare she write a book? I didn't do it because I didn't have the balls to do it or I wasn't ready enough or whatever else.

And you think, oh my God, what am I doing? And, you know, I say, my poor dad keeps getting quoted. I'm sure he's like, will you leave me out of it? But he used to say always, I'd go out tonight if I was kind of on the fence about whether I'd go on the lash. He was like, you know what, you could be dead tomorrow. And I always thought it was such a grim and very Irish way. Lovely nugget of Irish philosophy there.

A lovely nugget of Irish philosophy, but quite Zen monk as well. And so it kind of that sense of and I think maybe COVID and the pandemic and everything has kind of made us all aware of that at the same time, which is quite unusual. And you're like, actually, like do the things, whatever it might be, you know, it's not going to be perfect. You are not fully formed. You can learn a bit more publicly. You can falter and you can make mistakes and you can fuck up. But actually, for me, always the motivation is to find some sort of connection with people. And I think that's whether, you know, the shows that I do on telly or my podcast or this book, probably on a more personal level, is that kind of sense of connection. So even though I am absolutely crippled with a sense of

anxiety at being like fully seen, I'm also, you know, hopeful and grateful that I have the ability to, you know, like vomit my words onto a page and hopefully people can can see themselves in there and get a little bit of hope and I mean look the the the type a bit of me is like this bed I really hope this is the best seller and the other bit of me is like if one person gets a bit of comfort from it you know so I'm trying to like go with the latter version which feels like a healthier more compassionate uh place so come on then what's next you've written the book you've had another baby the latter version, which feels like a healthier, more compassionate place. So come on then, what's next? You've written the book, you've had another baby. What are you going to do now?

Do you know what? I am here for like a couple of weeks blitzing promo and the book, having the chats, and then I'm going to take two months off. I was due to be filming. Good woman. Where are you going to go? I mean, I'm not'm not gonna go anywhere which in itself feels like a luxury just gonna live your life yeah oh you're just gonna chill with a baby and a little person I'm gonna chill yeah and Ruby goes to school in September oh you've got to do it now then you've got to soak up these moments soak them Yeah, or else you're into the, I keep getting told you're into the half term, you're into the like all of that schedule.

And I was due to be filming your Homemade Perfect, your Garden Made Perfect June, July, and it was like bam, bam. And I don't know, like shortage of wood, something to do with supply. Everything has been pushed out. Builders are a bloody nightmare. So yeah, I'm going to just try

and really, really lean into that. I did, I mean, one of my other, so the baby, the actual baby, the book baby, which was a little squarer to push out. But I also launched, the tears were a little more severe. I launched a jewellery range late last year. Jesus, what haven't you done? I know, I'm an absolute sucker. So you're going to go up Everest

or something before Christmas? No, I'm doing nothing. No, I'm basically lying down, but it's called Freckle and that I I've been kind of you know I I have to keep the wheels moving in that but I can do that in a slightly more uh gentle way exactly exactly um so yeah but apart from that I'm lying down I'm a milk machine I'm glad you know your role in life do you know what that's what I'm surrendering into because I struggled first time round with accepting the shift in roles collapse into it just collapse into it I know yeah and like the there was that there was a vomiting incident last night and it was like it's okay it's okay it doesn't last forever it smells like fish it doesn't last forever i was like where did the lentils come from she hasn't had lentils on my watch today no we had i'll see your vomit and raise it we had dog vomit the whole way back

from picking up the puppy and my eldest child is really squeamish so every time the dog puked he would scream and say stop the car i need to get out poor baby that was a fun afternoon that was lovely fun afternoon i take both of your vomit stories and i raise you a reluctant pirate oh yes you said to remind you to tell us about the pirate come on i want the full pirate story so my youngest is six angela and to their topic for the term is being a pirate. And they're going on a school trip and they get to go on a coach and they're going to do a real life treasure hunt and they were allowed to dress up as pirates. Now, when did this happen?

This morning. Oh, shit. Okay. So in his infinite wisdom yesterday, my husband said, because of course we'd forgotten pirate costume, all of this stuff. Get yourself a notice board Angela preschool and stick it somewhere really obvious and then every letter that comes home you stick on the notice board so that you don't get yourself into shit like I do

I have a notice board I still do it but basically basically, pirate costume required. So yesterday at four o'clock, Tim was like, I know she can wear my pirate costume. Wait a sec. Why does he have a pirate costume? That's a good question. It's what he wore on his stag do. They made him wear it on his stag do on the day that he fell over in a swimming pool in Las Vegas and lost a tooth. Oh, oh my.

How? Perfect for a pirate. So she put this thing on and obviously it's really big so well then we a few safety pins and an old 80s belt of mine from a fancy dress that went around her twice so she's dressed as a pirate she then found some lace gloves that she chose to wear so we were all sorted until about 8 23 this morning when she went I look like an idiot I don't want to wear it so what did you do and then I was like well shit no what do I do well god love Chloe she came to the rescue in a way only big sisters can and was just like you look amazing you're going to be the best pirate there is And so we got her up to school in the pirate costume,

still very reluctant. And then praise be to the TA who had turned up. And admittedly, no, she was dressed as a pirate, but it was like a really raunchy pirate. You know, those ones that you can get in fancy dress shops that are all like... But God love her, sexy pirate aside, she scooped Gracie up under her arm and was like,

look, we can be pirates together. Oh, there we go. And took her into school. So we got there in the end. I'm never going to forget the TA in the sexy pirate. I know. Also a bit appropriate for the six-year-olds, but fuck it. Like lean in.

But also I love, love, and I'm so heartened. Like I'm one of four girls, I have three sisters. But the idea of like, Chloe, is that your eldest? Being like, babe, because as a younger sibling, all you want is the support of your older sister, especially. So for her to be like, you look amazing, kid, is the one. And they don't often, that's not often the relationship. So for her to kind of realise that this morning,

she had to pull it out of the bag and get Grace to school. Yeah, high fives to Chloe today. Right, last two questions, Angela. I'm going to flip them so Wendy gets the rubbish one and I get the nice one um what's for tea and who's cooking uh what's for tea I did go so yesterday we went to um a uh we called around to a friend's house we'd been in Ireland for a week and they had a little party that we missed and she said nip around for some uh rainbow cake which we did I mean seven like it was around six o'clock on a Sunday evening.

Everyone was getting ratty. It's the worst time in the world to call to anyone with small children. But when we were leaving, she'd had a big party. She gave me flowers, Michelle, thank you. Gave me flowers and two avocados into the pram. She's like, here you go. So we now have six avocados in a bowl downstairs and pretty much nothing else because by the time we went to the shops everywhere is closed so yeah it's guac and

there are always crisps in the in the thing so and who's cooking it I'll do it I'll send you some over it might be a bit brown by the time it gets to you but hey right when last question now much more importantly imagine that we are the baby and you have to sing us the lullaby that you sing. And you can't just stick a boob in our face. That won't count. You've got to actually, you can hum it, but just sing us what you'd sing to her. We've only just begun to live. White lace. I mean, I know it's a wedding song, but for me, it's the most comforting. to live white lace I mean I know it's a wedding song but for me

it's the most comforting, the Carpenters weirdly, other than that it's Elsa obviously but like you know I'm not allowed to sing because my four year old has no singing. Hey Angela singing to me is going on my gratitude list for the day Actually this whole conversation is, it's just been so lovely

Oh it was, thank you so much for having me. It has. And it's been very real and no bullshit. And that's how we like it, isn't it, Wend? We tried to put that on the cover, but apparently the Americans don't like bullshit in a title. And I'm not a fan of BS. No, no.

So best of luck with the book, Angela. I'm sure it'll be top of the bestsellers by tea time. And then you can go and lie down and enjoy your two months off. And well done for being so bloody real about it all. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me. Anytime, my love. Bye-bye.

Bye. Bye.