The Netmums Podcast - S10 Ep6: Carrie & David Grant: How to navigate parenthood in a gender fluid and neurodivergent age.

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Carrie and David Grant have an extraordinary story to tell: three of their four children are trans or non-binary, they are also gay or queer, all four are neurodivergent, and they are a mixed-race family, too. They talk to Alison about navigating everything from their children receiving a diagnosis of autism, ADHD, dyslexi and Dyspraxia diagnosis, serious mental health battles and suicide fears, and three of their children coming out as trans or non-binary. "A Very Modern Family" is out now

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollage. And me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show... There's no agenda to make people trans. There is just lived experience of parents trying to work stuff out in the moment, in real time, trying to work out what's going on for this child. But before all of that... This episode of The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Aldi. Wendy, I've got a question for you. What's your guilty parenting pleasure?

Oh, I'd probably say it's gobbling up cold fish fingers from my kids' plates after they've abandoned dinner in favour of watching the telly. I do that too. I reckon my guilty pleasure is sneaking out and escaping my children to have a lovely browse of my local Aldi alone. I am so with you. What I love about Aldi is they have an excellent range of great value products. They even have an award-winning baby and toddler range, which includes weaning essentials, nappies and wipes. It's funny you should say that because another friend told me that she switched to Aldi Mamiya

and it's giving her big savings. Yes, plus with Netmums and Aldi, new parents can get a pack of newborn nappies absolutely free. So log on to our site and let your friends know about this awesome opportunity with Netmums and Aldi. Right, don't tell my family, but I'm sneaking off to Aldi right now. Hello and welcome back to the Netmums podcast. I'm on my own this week. Wendy will be back alongside me next week. But I tell you what, what I really want to know this week is, how do kids grow out of their school uniform so quickly? And let's not even mention how expensive school shoes are and how quickly they get trashed.

I've got to buy a uniform for my four-year-old twin soon and I'm planning to hit up my school second-hand uniform sale very soon and deck them out for a reception on the cheap. But anyway, my guests today have got four children so I am sure they've bought many school uniforms in their time. My guests today are Carrie and David Grant who will be familiar faces if you've watched one of the several BBC primetime entertainment shows that they've been part of over the past 20 years. From Fame Academy to Glee Club and so much more. Their new book, A Very Modern Family, takes us into their family story. David and Carrie have four children, as I've mentioned, and three of them are trans or non-binary, and they're also gay or queer, and all four are neurodivergent. Plus, they're a mixed

race family too. Welcome to the podcast, Carrie and David. Hi. Hi, thank you so much for having us Alison. Thank you for being here. It is so, so great to see you. How are you doing today? Yeah, we're good. We're a little bit tired because we did early breakfast telly this morning. That's even earlier than normal early with kids. What time did you have to get up for that? Half past four I was up. And I slept in until 5.15.15 yeah because David doesn't have hair it's fine

that's the benefit that's the benefit oh my goodness I always have I have so much respect for people who have that as their job you know that they work on a breakfast show it's like how early every single morning yeah I don't know how they do it I was just speaking to the makeup people who said they get up at 2 30 they leave home at 2 30 every day because they

have to be in by three to set up and get going it's amazing isn't it so your book A Very Modern Family sets out to show that there really is no such thing as normal kids or a normal family doesn't it it certainly does I mean I think having said that when David and I had our first child I think we were probably like most people like yes it's gonna life will just be normal but with a child and you don't really question what normal is until you're confronted with a situation that doesn't seem to be normal and then you go hang on a minute but, but it puts the whole thing up in the air. So I think bit by bit, the first things we noticed, we've got three birth

and one adopted child, and our children are 28, 21, 17, and 13. So they're a big range. I had children, gave birth to children in my 20s, 30s, and when I was 40. We've got experience across a whole range of different areas with those children. But I think the neurodivergence was the first thing. Because when you have your child, you know, your first child, you're like, okay, this is, as I said, you think this is normal. And it's when your child goes to school, and your child begins to, there begins to be a bit of a gulf between your child and the other children, you suddenly realise, okay, there's something going on for this child. And we knew nothing about anything really, other than just, you take your kids to school, you pick them up at the end of the day, do a bit of spellings and

Bob's your uncle, we got this sorted. But for us, it would be a different journey that we've had to adapt to over a whole number of years now. So tell us then about your children. There's so many kind of areas I want to kind of touch upon. Let's touch upon first on how they identify now and compared to what was assigned to them at birth. Right. So we have our eldest, Olive. You do this. You do this better than me. You can do it.

You've got confidence. You can do it. I've got confidence. We have, our eldest is Olive. Olive is 28. Olive is, pronouns are they, he, them. They, them. Oh my gosh. I'm going to have to do it.

I can't believe that, that you don't know this. Literally. Oh my gosh. Right. Okay. So Olive is 28. Pronouns they, them. Tylan is 21 pronouns he him

arlo is 17 pronouns he they and nathan is 13 and he's he him and and you're i can see that it's still this learning process you're still on because you know david you're still like hang on a minute i want to get this right yeah and the thing is getting it right is it's it's important but it's it's even more important i think because people go oh no we're going to get it wrong we're going to get it wrong i think it's even more important if you don't get it right for kids to know that you're trying to get it right yeah yeah do you know what i mean and we our kids never slaughter us for getting it wrong carrie doesn't get it wrong they They never slaughter me for getting it wrong. I do sometimes get it wrong.

Yeah, occasionally. But, you know, they know our hearts and our hearts are to walk alongside them. And I guess these are people that you've known for, you know, up to 28 years. And, you know, you've perhaps known, well, you have known them differently and you've referred to them differently.

So it's going to take time, I guess, for you to really get used to it. Do you know, and it's interesting that you've jumped in, Alison, at the point of gender, because I think for us, our children and their identity, who they are, was shaken or shaped when they were a lot younger. So our journey with our children, when you realise, okay, I have suddenly on one day, you learn that two of your children are autistic, you have to adapt to that. And so you have to think about what were my expectations before

and what are my expectations now and have they changed? Many parents feel disappointed with that. David and I have never felt disappointed about our kids being autistic. We think they're absolutely wonderfully autistic. But there is always the challenge of what will life be like for them being autistic? So that's the disappointment is the world might now not get my children. And then having your children go through stuff at school where they are traumatised by school. That's a whole other area of life that we've had to navigate. And that led to mental health issues and led to one of our children spending three years on and off suicide watch in hospital.

And so when you've walked this road with your child and you've sat beside their hospital bed and you have prayed, just let them live. When you've gone to that school gate and every other parent is talking about SATs and you're just praying for your child to stay alive, you're changed by that as a parent. So when your child then says, by the way, okay, this is where I'm at now. I actually don't think I'm female. I think I'm male. To be honest, it isn't just a one day we woke up and this thing happened. It's a whole series of things that have happened for each of these children. And it's gradual evolution and in different timings and different ways, each child has come to a different way of understanding gender. So, and it's for us to be

curious about that. Where are you at with that what's happening for you what's driving those thoughts all those things are really important for us and i think i think what's happened with particularly with the issue of gender is that the the idea i know even as people are listening to this they may be thinking i have a very strong opinion about i'm really anti this i don don't. That's it is ridiculous. All of this transfer. And there may be other people there probably with lived experience who are going, I'm so glad that someone is talking about this. There's no agenda to make people trans. There is just lived experience of parents trying to work stuff out in the moment, in real time, trying to work out what's going on for this child so for us we don't stand at either end of the spectrum david and i stand in the middle with this it's where is

my child at i'm the parent so it's my job not to control my child but to control myself as a parent to be in control to be that parent that can be solid that can listen that can hold the space for my child's identity to develop one way or another without me trying to influence that to just hold the space for my child to develop into who my child identifies and who they are and that's across is my child a dancer or is my child an accountant or is my you know my will my child do child care whatever my child is going to be whoever who are their? Who are they going to care for? Who are their people? Those things are much bigger or as big as how they identify in their gender. And I know that probably for some people, like it would be huge for me.

Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it's just another part of life that we are having. We've had to adapt to. Because, for instance, when when you have an assessment the child that walks into an assessment an autism assessment and is the same as the child that emerges you know when somebody says yes your child is autistic they're exactly the same person that walked in all you have is an explanation for certain things that you may not have had an explanation before. The same goes for anything. You know, when your child says to you, start speaking about gender, start speaking about sexuality, they're the same child you've always known.

But they are telling you something about themselves that you may not have known. Would you say in that way then that neurodivergence has had a much bigger impact on your life, you know, as parents, as a family, than the gender has? I would say that probably the biggest areas for us are probably mental health. I think we could get our heads around autism. I think we could get our heads around trans stuff and sexuality stuff. I think all of that we kind of we're curious and we're walking along with and we understand and we've learned we've gone away and learned about it.

So that's all fine. I think mental health and trauma is life. It's a lifelong learning. You know, it's like, whoa, this is not what I signed up for. I did not sign up to be sitting by a hospital bed, unsure whether my child would live. And I think that is, that changes you as a parent. And I think, you know, we know that 80% of 17 to 19-year-olds said that post-pandemic they're struggling with their mental health. So this is not just parents like us that maybe have got those children

that are already different. We know that most parents will be struggling and only a quarter of those children, if your children when they're a little bit older need to access children's and adolescent mental health services, there's only a quarter of them that will get an appointment that are referred. So then 75% don't even get an appointment. What happens to those 75%? What happens in reality is that parents get gaslit because the services can't meet the need. So it's a problem with the parents. Actually, parents are our best resource. We should be really championing each other. We should be collaborating, trying to find out the best strategies. If your child conforms to all the normal strategies, I shake your hand. I salute you.

You're amazing and well done. Isn't it great? I'm pleased for your ass. But actually, for some of us, it just does not work out that way. And those of us that have children who are different, believe me, they are nodding their heads to this stuff and going thank you this is the stuff i've been struggling with because this is this is what we found we started a support group and we've got over 200 families that we've worked with for the last 10 years we have that in our house that support group and we know from those parents that the similarities in experience of what they go through. Absolutely. Absolute like helter skelter of a whirlwind of how do I deal with this to getting on top of it, to feeling, getting eventually,

hopefully to a place of hope. And that for us is so important to hold on to. We are going to have to parent these children differently. But the mental health stuff, that's the stuff that really gets you because that's the stuff you are you so want to change and you you can't solve everything as parents we so want to solve everything and we can't and that is really hard to not feel like a failure when you're in that position and speaking of mental health I think that what what a lot of people listening to this on netmums are going to realise

is that we are in the middle of a real mental health epidemic. Lockdown, since lockdown, I mean, I think the stats were that depression rates and anxiety for children and young people are up by three times what they were for depression, almost doubled for anxiety. And like Carrie said about that stat of 16 to 19 year olds, you know, 80% people saying my mental health has been detrimentally affected since lockdown. It's just in a world of uncertainty, some things have become even more uncertain. And, you know, like in 2021, the last year for which they released stats, the NHS saw an 83% rise in the demand for real people are situations, problems, challenges for parents that we weren't prepared for, challenges that the naughty step won't solve. Yeah, naughty step is not going to solve this stuff. Challenges that just saying don't doesn't solve. If you think in our generation,

when a parent said don't, it just drove underground now there isn't now there isn't even an underground to go to really you know people just really go into themselves and we have to find ways of actually being able to stay in control if you like if you want to use that word or at least be able to set the narrative as parents whilst walking alongside our children rather than walking in front of them trying to lead them when they want to go somewhere else or walking behind them trying to push them when they don't want to go like taking their hand and walking alongside them and that's the reason we wrote the book because you know yes the the the things that we've got the strategies there's so many

strategies in there that we got coming out of our experience of autism our experience of adhd and the experiences of of the hundreds of other people that we we have the group with in our house but also we recognize just now as we've released the book that all of these things apply to people who are going through mental health situations in their families because it is families one person has a mental health challenge in a family the whole family is affected yeah and i think that the book will will help so many families just to feel less alone i think it's just such an important book for so many parents even if parents of, you know, as you've said, Carrie, you know, children that conform to the norm, I'm doing, you know,

quote unquote, it's just so important to have that understanding. What I love about in the book is that when you're talking about, you know, your kids being neurodivergent, you're really specific, you know, it's very easy to kind of put that blanket term across so many children, but you're very specific about what each child has been diagnosed with. Do you want to just say a little bit about that? Yeah, because I think sometimes we, like, for instance, you're a bit younger than us, but in our generation, even actually, I think maybe in our generation, we didn't even talk about dyslexia.

I think that's probably something that came 20 years after us. When we were kids, yeah. So dyslexia, people go, oh something that came 20 years after us but when we were kids yeah so dyslexia people go oh you've got problems reading and writing no one talks about the fact that if you've got dyslexia you're likely also to have some levels of anxiety you're also likely to have some sensory processing disorder or disordered sensory processing. So I think it's understanding that sometimes it's not just one thing that your child has. It will be linked to other things. And then what happens is you've got the ADHD side of things,

which might be, so that might be chaotic thinking, which for some children, possibly more males than females, will be bouncing off walls and possibly more the female profile might be, this is not black and white, but more could be more is bouncing around in your head. So the chaos is there, but it's in your head. But ADHD will also possibly have, could have dyspraxia along with it, which is your motor skills, it could have disorganized thinking, chaotic thinking, anxiety as a result of that, depression as a result of that. And so when you start looking at a whole suite of traits like that, there's crossover. So what we've done in

the book is to try and lay out what all of those traits are, because people will begin when your kids, what did you say your twins are four yeah they're four yeah this is just wonderful when they're this age and they go to school and then you let's hope this isn't you but what what can happen is the teacher will call you because especially with twins actually one or other of them is a little bit distracted and they're looking out the window why are they looking out the window they won't concentrate and so depending on the teacher one teacher may come to you and say your child's really got needs needs to do other activities needs to go outside every 10 minutes have a learning break do a whole minute of jumping

jacks and come back in the classroom because that's going to help them focus because they're recognizing it's just an inability to focus. Another teacher may come to you and say, your child really disrupted our class today. I was trying to teach and they wouldn't concentrate and they're clicking their pen. And before you know it, you've got, you're being made to feel like your child isn't compliant. And therefore you feel like-

You have a problem child. And whose fault could that be? They've just spent four years with you. It must be you. So what can happen is, you know, many children, we have two pathways when your children are in school. They'll get sent down either social, emotional, mental health pathway or a special educational needs pathway. And quite often parents, depending again socioeconomically, if you're black or mixed race, you're more likely to be sent down a social,

emotional, mental health pathway than you are the other one. So all of those things, even when you've got very young children, it's worth having some of this stuff in your pocket, just to know, so that you're ready. We were just not ready. So I used to go to school and they go, Mrs. Grant, can I just, every day, Mrs. Grant, can I just have a word? You know the walk of shame where you walk in you see something you see a teacher and you think oh i hope it's not me don't pick yeah i'm ducking down i'm ducking down they're like mrs grant i can see you're ducking there it's you i need to speak to yeah we end up you know we walk in and say there's always one and it's always ours yeah and then what can happen you know sadly is that if that child

might actually do really well in school but have such terrible levels of anxiety that they're masking all of that anxiety they might go to school and have actually achieve tick all the boxes achieving all their targets come home melt down be striking walls and crying for hours on end. And you as a parent are like, I don't know what to do. By the time they get to nine or 10, that child might then be saying, I'm not going to school. This is too much. I'm actually going to vote with my feet. I'm not going in. And you as a parent are then probably going to go, I'm terrified of the attendance officer. I need to drag my child into school because I don't want to get told off. I don't want to be seen as a bad parent.

So I think that narrative that we have, we've got to break the stigma down. That's what David and I do. I'm putting it all on paper is going, yeah, yeah, we get it. We've had all of that plus plus. And it doesn't mean you're a bad parent. We've got to deconstruct how we do parenting for these children. And there is a way of doing that that is neither aggressive nor passive, that is neither really traditional nor completely liberal.

We sit in the middle. We are still in control. We are still parents. But we need to make sure our children's needs are being met or we are going to continue to have mental health crisis. Yeah, absolutely. So it sounds like early diagnosis is really important. So if someone's listening and they suspect, for example, one of my four-year-old twins, she flaps her hands quite a lot. She struggles with changes to routine and she was quite late in talking. And so it's really

hard for us as parents to know is that just like normal developmental stuff or actually does she need special additional support so if someone's listening and they're having those thoughts and trying to weigh that up what should they do so such a helpful and great question brilliant question because it could well be developmental could just be like yep that that sounds like a lot of children at that age especially because they're twins one might advance in the other thing so i'm not ready for all that so that you know they're the cognitive sense of that but there's also a small possibility that that child is stimming which is what is an autistic trait and not speaking so early is an

autistic trait it's also a twin trait so it's actually knowing without getting too worried about this could be so let me just hold it in mind those things are just things you just hold you're just stuck in your little bookshelf in your head I've got that there I've stored that away and I'm just going to be aware so if that child is struggling with change it's looking at let's have a little look at their sensory world. How are they responding to noise? How are they responding to tastes? Are they that child that rigidly needs their foods not touching?

Are they that child that wants to sit at a particular point in the table and will lose their rag if they can't? Then you're starting to see something that's a little bit more telling us a little bit more information. So I think with if and if that puts us towards autism, we know one of the biggest areas for autism is anxiety. That when our children start school, that lovely home environment that most of our children grow up in right to the age of four when they go to nursery they've really even though they've got those quirks once they go to school those things become a little bit more magnified and so the relationship between anxiety demand and toleration is really key so if you think about forget anxiety for just one moment if your child's toleration levels are low and you put a demand on them or school puts a demand on them i.e you've got to sit still now even though that label in the back of your new school uniform that your mum just got that was costly that label is driving you nuts so when the says, I'd now like you to sit quietly,

you're not going to sit quietly because your toleration levels are being driven mad by the label, the noise in the class, the kid next to me last night at garlic, and I can't bear the smell. All of those things are going to be affecting your child. I'm just too hot in here. It's too noisy in here, all those things. So their toleration levels are going down if their toleration levels are going down you cannot put demands on them because they can't tolerate demands so how do we put their tolerations levels up how do we make them more tolerant and the biggest driver for this yes it can be environmental things like how do we control noise how do we control where they sit the temperature of the room the labels in the jumper and all of that is worth looking at

but the biggest driver is anxiety if we can lower anxiety toleration levels go up and then we can put demands on our child so what we're not saying is oh just let the child do anything let them have no what we're saying that doesn't actually help to reduce that anxiety at all. That literally will not help them at all. But if we can lower anxiety. So the biggest thing, once we get beyond the sensory stuff, is looking at how do we lower anxiety for this child? Do they need learning breaks?

Do they need, when they go in the playground, it might be different for yours because they're twins, so they've got each other. But when that child's on their own and they go into the playground, and they all learn very quickly, everybody everybody's playing but I don't belong everybody's got that game and I'm not quite understanding that game and then someone called me a name or someone didn't under they didn't include me so they've the messaging that our children are getting very

young is I don't fit how do I belong how belong? How do I find a way in when my speech isn't as advanced as all these kids that seem really sophisticated? So it's about having the strategies at school and at home that lower anxiety, toleration levels go up, demands can be put on. That's great advice. That's so, so helpful. Now, you know, you said that in terms of your whole family story, and everything that's happened, the gender discussions have almost like paled in significance compared to everything else you've been through. But I'm guessing there are probably people listening who are having those sort of conversations with their own children, and aren't really sure how to navigate it. And

you've said that it's really important to hold space for your kids. And it sounds like you guys have navigated it so, so brilliantly. What advice do you have for those parents who are trying to navigate that right now in their own homes? The very first piece of advice that I would say, fix your face. It's a phrase that we use. It in advance really prepare for this talk about talk about it among and between yourselves because you know we talked about parenting singly find a friend to find a friend to talk about it so you can work this stuff out because you know what when your child tells you something that is new um unexpected, and perhaps shocking, depending on what it is, your reaction,

your first reaction is the one they read. So if your face says, what? And you say, okay, fine, look, let's just, we can talk about this. You know, everything's fine. They've heard what? They've seen what in your expression. It's's like fix your face because it gives you that neutrality gives you a beat to think it gives you a beat to be able to say I know that you are probably expecting me to go up the wall but I'm going to be the adult here okay you've given me this piece of information you've given me this piece of information. You've told me this piece of news. You've shared this piece of yourself.

My reaction now will determine whether you're prepared to share any more of yourself or whether this becomes a secret. And I think it's sorted, but outside of the home, outside of my view, outside of my hearing, it's all still going on. You've just decided that it's not safe for me to know about it. And we've met so many children and parents that we know, it's not so many, a handful, where online their pronouns are they, them or the opposite gender. And we know that their children are,, them, or the opposite gender. And we know that. Their children.

The children are, but their parents don't know. And I think I would hate for my children, more than anything, I would hate that. If I found out that my child could not be honest with me, I would really feel like I had failed then. I'm not saying those parents are failures because we've all got room to grow and believe, honestly. We certainly have.

But I really want to be able to hear my child so even with I'm now 17 year old Arlo when Arlo was about nine or ten we were sitting at dinner one night and Arlo said I'm now a boy and my name's Ian and my older kids our older kids said not Ian that's a terrible name it actually bought us some time but I think what it was really good was we were like David I looked at each other like what an amazing response from the older children that actually it didn't even occur to them that the first bit was shocking it was the second bit that was shocking so it allowed us us to really think. And what we began to do is if you are used to being present with your child, if you're used to sitting with your child, and by sitting, I don't mean solving their problems, just sitting, just hanging

out with your children, they will share with you. And when they share, it's not like, oh, here's my opportunity to manipulate them into whichever direction I'd like them to go. I don't think ultimately children will go the direction they want to go in anyway. Right. That I believe will happen. With or without your approval. With or without my approval. And so I think holding that space to just be curious. How does that work for you, Arlo?

We had so many conversations. So I was like, yeah, I'm a boy. And I was like, OK. And after maybe six months, I knew a boy. And I was like, okay. And after maybe six months, I knew that they were battling with, at that point, they're not now, but they were really battling with being autistic. And I said, I just want to check in with you, Arlo. You do know if you're a boy, you're still going to be autistic, right? And it was like a light bulb. Arlo was like, what? So we then went through a period of time where Arlo said, I know what it is. It's my sexuality. I'm a lesbian. Okay, great. Okay, let's just walk along with that. And then Arlo, I think is at the moment, they're 17. So they're still developing. They are, they see sometimes they see themselves as neutral, non-binary. Sometimes they see themselves as male.

So both of those things are coming out. Now, I'm not quite sure where it's going to land, but I know that I love this child. And for me, the biggest thing for me is that my child is kind, that my child can take their place in the world, that they can make a difference to the world, that they can belong and feel like they not just can join other people, but they are gatherers of people, that they will find their people and that they

will make other people feel like they belong. If I've got those things going on with my child, if my child knows how to deal with a mental health crisis because they've got strategies, because they've learned those strategies, then my child knows resilience. And so that means that my child doesn't have to be like, all I want is my child to be happy. No, I can, I can cope with my child's sad because I know they have the strategies to get through it. So I think all those things, it's a whole suite of things. It's not just a, yes, you push them down that road or you stop them being whatever they are. You, as a parent, you're just constantly wrapping yourself around what's going on and working it through with them otherwise you can end up in a situation where you're going

I am just controlling your life until you're 18 at which point you can do exactly what you want and nobody does that you know what people do actually but that doesn't really help because it means that your child, without the anchor of the wisdom of the years that hopefully you have, is cast adrift to emotionally reinvent the wheel themselves because they can't trust you with their pain. They can't trust you with their concerns. They can't trust you with their curiosity or confusion because they know that you have an agenda other than their wholeness. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now, we hear a lot of people saying things like being non-binary or transgender or neurodiverse. It's a bit of a bandwagon that kids are jumping onto. It's a trend. You know, when we were kids, we all wanted to be the same. Now they're desperate to be different. And I would argue, and I do argue, actually, is it not more just that these are options that are discussed and available to kids? Therefore, of course, more of them are going,

I think that's me. I think that's me. What would you say to those people who are having those thoughts? People, people that are accessing gender identity clinics, 26% of them are autistic. So we know that... Diagnosed. Diagnosed autistic. So we also know that lots of people are not diagnosed. So the chances are those figures are probably in reality a lot higher than that so I think if you have an autistic child then even more fix your face work out what you might be doing here because it might come up as a 25% chance that's 26% chance that's going to be something you're going to need to face

so I think that's the first thing I think that as for, what is at the root of certainly the trans side of things, because trans non-binary is 60% non-binary and 40% trans, is that many people, if you're trans, all people actually who are trans will struggle with what's called dysphoria, gender dysphoria. Now, dysphoria is the most horrible feeling that you are in the wrong body, like horrible on a scale of 100 out of 100. It's terrible. I don't think that anyone would pretend for that. And I don't think anyone would think, oh, I'd really love to have a bit of dysphoria. That would be nice. I don't think anyone would choose that. So I do think that's probably not the case. But I do agree with you that there are more choices now. I think that's, you know, in the 80s when I or the 70s and 80s when I was at school sexuality was all about you know what so what are you then you know you can you can you've got three options so that you know and and that then expands to all these other areas that we now have three options either or both yeah yeah whereas you know and now that that's changed but also you know

non-binary is not it's nothing new is it no non-binary is not, it's nothing new, is it? No, non-binary is nothing new at all. In fact, I'm going to read you something. In Mesopotamian mythology, amongst the earliest known written records in human history, there are references to types of people who are neither male nor female. Sumerian and Akkadian tablets from the second millennia BCE, that's 4000 plus years ago, and from 1700 BCE, almost 4000 years ago, describe how these people were created by the gods, their roles in society, different words for them, different kinds of them. Non-binary is simply a word we use today for people that have been written about for, you know, millennia. In North, sorry, in Native American pan-tribal custom, that's like across

the whole of the American continent, South and North, there were more than a hundred different gender expressions recorded and five separate genders recognized we're actually talking non-binary is just a contemporary definition or phrase used to describe something that people have been talking about within the context of human history since the beginning of time that's so interesting i did not know that people go oh you didn't have that when i was a kid unless you're over 4 000 year old years old they did have it when you were a kid i do i do parent because that was your question what would you do if you're a parent i think that kind of stuff helps us to understand it but what do you do with your child what can i do with my child

i think fix your face that's the first thing i after that, I think it's to find out. Well, you will probably instinctively know the kind of child you have. So we've got different experiences. Our oldest child, Olive, is absolutely brilliant with answering questions. So I can go with all my silly questions like, what does it mean if I say this? I feel like they're educating me. With my 21 year old, Tylan, I cannot ask those questions because even a question makes him feel like they're educating me with my 21 year old tylen i cannot ask those questions because even a question makes him feel like we don't approve so i know not to do that entire favorite phrase is google is free google is free david's took my take took my life absolutely google is free so you we don't have to get all the answers from our children.

I think there's lots of stuff online. The stuff that I would avoid is the really extreme stuff either way. So I think when people say stuff like they're handing out the medication like sweets, that kind of like we went to an appointment for tylen and tylen was told it's a 14 year waiting list 14 years yeah how was i handing it out like sweets i hear that a lot i hear that a lot from other parents saying that's the worry is that you know once your child starts you know questioning their gender you know it's a slippery slope to them taking medication and suddenly it's it's irreversible and before you know it you know I hear that by the time you

get an appointment chances are your child will either know even more definitely what they want or they will say actually I'm not really sure that. I don't think I was right there. Because it is such a long process. It takes so long to get an appointment. The other thing is, when you do get an appointment, there is a whole variety of different medications that are used in those situations. So things like hormone blockers. So blockers are where that delays your puberty. So that does that, you're not transitioning, you're delaying puberty so that you buy yourself a few years to work out where is my head at. And when you stop them, it is completely reversible.

Everything reverses. Then you start puberty. So I think we need to get out of this idea that children are pushed down a particular path where they're 100%. That's not our experience anyway. And, again, that's our children. We don't know anybody who's had that experience. I don they're 100 that's not our experience anyway and again we don't know anybody who's had that experience i don't know anyone that's had quite the opposite i think that around this topic because of fear there is so much more heat than there is light you know and if you hear something like they're handing out sort of pills like sweets enough.

People buy into it and you start to believe it. And not only do you begin to believe it, you begin to be afraid of what the implications might be for your own children. It's only when you have children that enter into this whole sort of like this area where you have to then find out about it. The number of parents we've spoken about, two rather, about this whose children are, you know, discussing transitioning, it's not slippy slope. It's like climbing Everest in flip-flops. Yeah. I think also the other thing you have to remember about your children,

and I think this really helped me because I realised this happened in real real time for me is Alison as I'm talking to you I'm not every time I look at you thinking Alison's a woman oh my gosh look Alison's a woman she's a woman she's female that's that's that's that's her identity I'm just going you're Alison right so with your children what happens is for the first little bit you're like okay you were a girl now you're a boy okay you're not a boy that's that's okay you walk in the kitchen oh now that's a son rather than a daughter that's and you just that goes around your head that point moves on let me tell you really quickly because they are still the people that you gave birth to this is still the same person the essence of that person their traits their

character their personality the way they make you laugh the way they make you cry is still the same person yeah so I think there's I don't think it's nearly as frightening perhaps I expected it would be really frightening I don't think it is frightening I think there are moments where you know I know sometimes we're looking at David's phone and a picture will just pop up and it's one of our kids in a pretty little dress. And we go, oh, look, weren't they gorgeous? But not with a sense of longing. I think we would think that about, you know, when they're spotty teenagers, it's a bit different, isn't it? You look back at when they were six.

They're cute anyway. All kids are cute. So I think I think you just have to be a bit more rational about it. I think we've become really terrified and I don't think it's nearly as terrifying. The things that are terrifying are things like waiting lists when you know your child is desperate and you can't even get an appointment to talk about it. I think that, you know, we've had this delay in, you know, the same with all the neurodivergences, waiting seven years to get an autism diagnosis for some kids. You know, all of that waiting. I often use a phrase which is our children are dying in the waiting. You know, you wait for an ACAMSA appointment, you wait to see a mental health person that can help you out.

And you wait for five years during the most crucial time of your life you know and if you can't if your parents can't afford private health care what hope is there for those children this is one of the reasons we've written the book because we're like hang on a minute if you're in that waiting read the book there's loads of stuff you can be doing loads of strategies hundreds of strategies be trauma informed understand your child you know know what you can fight for know what to say to the school know what to say to the gp know how to handle social services all of those questions are answered and i think for people that are in that waiting that's i wish that i'd had that because i feel like most of us parents don't have it we're out there again reinventing the wheel trying to

work out how to do it and being really isolated also 92% of young trans people have thought of taking their lives because of the rejection, the isolation, the chances of being beaten up or attacked, the fact that society considers them to be less than. It's really, for so many trans people, it's a really horrible existence. It's not like I'm following this trend, I'm becoming a goth or I've become a punk and then I'm going to grow up and become the head of accounts. You know, this is them and it's life-changing. 92% is like, we need to get those stats down.

This is them and it's life changing. 92% is like, we need to get those stats down. This is terrible. So it's not really in any way a trend that anybody wants to follow. You know, we have spoken to so many trans people who said, if I had had a choice, then I would have been born this way. I wouldn't have had to realise that that is the way that I was and then had to fight to become who I am. You know, it's a fight for so many people. And this is like, you know what? This is, again, lots of strategies.

What part would you say that has race played in your kids finding their identity and their place in the world? I think race is an interesting one. And we can both talk about this, but we both talk about anything, but just, I think it depends where you're growing up. We're growing up in North London and for our first child, who's now 28, they were, I think the only one, one of the only black or mixed race children in their entire school.

And we're still living in the same area and the areas change. So I think that it's different between each, know to the youngest now it's very different yeah so i think i think one of the hardest things for any child is not seeing yourself represented so if you don't see yourself represented at school you don't see yourself represented on screen and then if other people don't really understand race around you because this racism still exists we know that it's just another layer of complexity for our children I totally agree with that I do think that it plays a role in as much as you know in Black Lives Matter sort of kicked up a couple of years ago I think that for many young people it was the first time that they had realised, or many people rather, it was the first

time that they'd realised that statistically, black people were more likely to be stopped by the police, black people were more likely to be given custodial sentences, more likely to be expelled, more likely to be rejected for loans, more likely to be rejected from universities, with the same qualifications as a white person, more likely to die in childbirth. I think that suddenly a lot of people became aware of something that if you are a person of colour, you would know because you live it. And I think that if anything, hopefully what that has done is that it's made our children's lives more understandable to people.

Because, you know, and when people, when that phrase that used to come up that started to be sort of resisted and resented, white privilege, it didn't mean that white people had an easy life. It means that if your life wasn't easy, it wasn't because of your race. If you were disadvantaged, it wasn't because of your race. If you were disadvantaged, it wasn't because of your race. If you were turned down for a bank loan, it wasn't because of your race. You know, if you couldn't get that place that you wanted to rent, it wasn't because of your race. White privilege doesn't mean you have it easy. It means that you have one less hurdle to jump that's it's so great to hear you talk about it in such a clear clear way that will help people understand it even even you know three

years on from 2020 um it really did i think it was like a really a really important milestone for for a lot of us i think but finally carrie and and David if you could go back and give yourselves one piece of advice at the start of your parenting journey what would it be? Gosh that's such a good question I think I think if I had known to favour my child over the systems earlier I think I was just very afraid of school and afraid of authority and just thought those people all know everything. And I'm just a parent taking my kid to school. What do I know? I really wish that I had listened more or noticed, been more up to speed with what was going on for our children early on and not just take what the professional services said.

And I find that sad because I love teachers and I love the therapists. I love all those guys. And I've had great experiences and awful experiences with both. But I think you can challenge the system. Don't be afraid to challenge what you're seeing with your own eyes.

If you're seeing something, it's there and it's real. So yeah, notice it. I think I would have taken my grandmother's advice that I didn't understand till I got older which is a fool and a wise person make the same number of mistakes the only difference is the wise person becomes wise by learning from them and I would have beaten myself up less for getting things wrong and realise that every time I got something wrong, this is an opportunity to learn. That's brilliant. That's so good.

Both of you, Carrie and David, thank you so much for joining us today on Netmums. It has been so, so brilliant to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you for having us and giving us an opportunity to speak. I mean, it's so, for people in our community, we are so unheard.

So thank you very much for listening.