The Netmums Podcast - S10 Ep9: Why Money Matters, with Deborah Meaden

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Star of Dragon's Den, Deborah Meaden, joins Wendy and Alison this week. As well as being an investor on the hit BBC show, Deborah has written a book for children all about money.  "Why Money Matters" is a Little Experts Book for 6-9 year olds and it teaches kids the basics from the history of money, through to how interest works and the difference between needs and wants. Deborah chats about the importance of teaching kids about money, how to explain the cost of living crisis to children, whether it's OK to give kids pocket money AND the secret to raising kids with a good attitude towards saving. The book is released on the 6th of July. 

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollage. And me, Alison Pirrie. Coming up on this week's show... If you make a decision to buy something today that you want, but you don't really want, it might stop you buying a thing in the future that you really, really want. But before all of that... This episode of The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Aldi. Wendy, I've got a question for you. What's your guilty parenting pleasure? Oh, I'd probably say it's gobbling up cold fish fingers from my kids' plates

after they've abandoned dinner in favour of watching the telly. I do that too. I reckon my guilty pleasure is sneaking out and escaping my children to have a lovely browse of my local Aldi alone. I am so with you. What I love about Aldi is they have an excellent range of great value products. They even have an award-winning baby and toddler range, which includes weaning essentials, nappies and wipes. It's funny you should say that because another friend told me that she switched to Aldi Mamiya and it's giving her big savings. Yes, plus with Netmums and Aldi, new parents can get a pack of newborn nappies absolutely free.

So log on to our site and let your friends know about this awesome opportunity with Netmums and Aldi. Right, don't tell my family, but I'm sneaking off to Aldi right now. Hello everybody, welcome to another episode. I want to start today by talking about the black hole of parenting. That is the underneath of my sofa. I pulled the sofa out yesterday because my darling youngest daughter spilt a whole glass of water. And so I had to mop it up. And oh my God, the crap that I found under that sofa. It was almost prehistoric. And yeah, tell me that I'm not the only one

that could basically start a museum exhibit from what's under my sofa. Underneath my sofa is a bit like a branch of Toys R Us. Honestly, my kid, I've got a little Peppa Pig here that I stood on when it kind of appeared from under my sofa earlier. Honestly, it's shameful. I need to get a big stick and just get everything from underneath there. Having done it, don't do it. It's disgusting. Just head in the sand. You don't want to know. Okay. Let's talk to the guest. I wonder, I bet there's not crap under her sofa. I would hazard a guess, especially looking at the beautiful room that she's in right now. I would hazard a guess that there's nothing

under her sofa. Now, when I describe today's guest as a dragon, I promise I'm not being rude. Deborah Meaden has been an investor on Dragon's Den for so many years, making many entrepreneurs' dreams come true whilst shattering the dreams of others with a swift dose of honesty. Deborah has now written a children's book which aims to teach kids about money from an early age, so we thought she'd be the perfect person to invite on to grill about all things money. Welcome to the podcast, Deborah. Thank you for inviting me. You're very welcome. It's lovely to have you. You're wrong. I've got cats that take things and hide things, and I know they're under my sofa. Oh Christ, if it's cats, it's probably mouse carcasses. Well, they're

probably lots of stuff mixed in with my. Anyway, let's not go there. I love that you can blame your cats and we can blame our children. It's done nothing to do with us three. Never. I know, it's brilliant, isn't it? So what's it like, Deborah? You have got the power, the power to make or break people on Dragon's Den. Is that how you see it? No, not at all. And it isn't people that you're making or breaking, it's businesses that you're taking decisions on. So it certainly isn't a power play. The reason I do Dragon's Den is I love entrepreneurs. I love creativity. I love people who put themselves out there and take risks. So I am really looking for opportunity. When you see me get a little bit testy, shall we say,

it's mainly because I get really frustrated for them. I'm like, you've got an amazing opportunity here, guys. You know, please, please don't mess it up. So that's when I get, and also, you know, some of those pitches, they last up to three and a half hours. So, you know, we don't go from naught to you know wow a bit testy like that it sometimes just takes you know a long time with people just not answering questions avoiding you know avoiding the issues um trying to pull the wool over our eyes and there's nothing like that to um to to what that winds me up to be mad to try and pull the

wool over you lot like of all the people just say it straight right there's no point you've seen it all before surely yeah and i do you know i don't mind that people don't know the answers i don't mind if they're well numbers i get a little bit um because we only ask for very basic numbers and actually if you run a business you do need to fundamentally understand the levers of your business. You know, you've got to know what your turnover is. You've got to know what your margins are. You've got to know that actually you're selling something at a profit. So that's not hard. You know, that's like the lifeblood of a business. So we're not asking particularly difficult questions. And if people can't answer those, that worries me. That really

does worry me. But you know, sometimes I'll ask a question and I feel like saying, you just don't know the answer, do you? So just say it. Just say, I don't know. I'll find out. You know, I would admire you, respect you, trust you more if you told the truth. Now you've invested in so many amazing things. My favourite is the Solar Buddies, the kids sun cream applicator is just so good. Which is the investment that you're currently most excited about? So I, because I've currently got 29 live investments, so I can't carry them all around with me in my head all of the time. So when I'm actually dealing with a particular business, there is no other business in my life. You know, that's all I'm interested in. And also there are really different stages because some of them, you know, Solar Buddies is a very recent investment. Some, you know, I've still got the first investment I ever made on Dragon's Den.

So they're all at very, very different stages. So I can't tell you there's one that excites me more than another. I do love Solar Buddies. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And it is one of those businesses that came into the den. And I just thought, why hasn't anybody else? You know, doesn't that exist? Well, I always said they needed to invent sun cream sheep dip for children so you could just go plonk plonk

and they'd be done I'm not sure you're allowed to do that I mean I don't have children I'm not sure I've got sheep but I'm not sure you're like is there one that got away, as it were, someone who you really wanted to invest in, but they went to another dragon? So there's a lot. But again, I'm not a regret kind of person either. There's no point. I did my absolute best. If I really want something, I try really, really hard for it. If it doesn't happen, then it's probably not happened for a good reason. It's happened the chemistry won't be right. Or maybe, or maybe they, the deal wasn't good enough for them. But it was the deal that I was prepared to offer on. So I

always put my best foot forward. And of course, there's a moment I think, oh, damn, I really would have liked that one. But there's plenty more opportunities. And I do this in life. There's no point looking back and thinking, oh, I wish, you know, what's the point of that? It didn't happen. So it's much better for me to use my energy saying that is a shame. I would love to be involved with that business. And I genuinely think sometimes that was a mistake because I know the qualities of the dragons. Sometimes I completely admit there's another dragon that would be a better dragon for you. You know, I get that. But sometimes I see them choose a dragon. I think, I just know, I know I would have been the right one for you.

That's the only time it gets disappointing. But you know, once it happens, it's happened. That's tough. That's tough. Now your new book, Why Money Masters, is all about teaching kids about money, all aspects of money. What was your childhood like in terms of money?

What age were you when you learned the value of money? Did you have a part-time job, for example, in order to save up for something you wanted? When I was 18 months old, my mother divorced my father. She was a single parent mother. She had to work with no money at all. There was no support coming her way. So she had to go out and work and we went to live with a family while she did that. So money, I think, became present in my life because there was a lot of conversation from very early days of, well, we can't afford to do that. So I learned very quickly the language of need versus want, what you can afford, having to save up for things. I understood all of those things of course

I didn't understand the more complicated stuff so it was ever it was ever present I don't remember a time when I didn't I didn't really understand what money was but I knew it was really important and I knew that it helped us do things that we needed or wanted to do um but but the book really was about so you see by the time we're seven we've started forming. But the book really was about, you see, by the time we're seven, we've started forming our money ideas. Well, I was about to ask, it's aimed at six to nine year olds,

but is that the age then where we should be talking to our kids about money? You start forming your habits really quite young. Now, this isn't, do you understand, compound interest, but it's you know it was it was in built into us a lot of adults don't that's my next book um but it was in built into you know it just through living through it it was in built into us the value of money but if you don't necessarily have that you know the the wants versus the needs and all that it's very difficult to learn it so i i just felt we need to give to give people the best to give adults the best you

know those future adults the best chance in life you know let's give them a really good basic understanding of what it's all about we do i mean i touch on things like i do do compound intro i did i did interest and then uh and then the publishers came back and said, can you do compound interest? And I literally said, honestly, most adults haven't got a clue how compound interest works. I will do it as long as I can use jelly beans, which I do. It's a way forward in life, if in doubt, use jelly beans. But also, you know, it talks about tax and earnings. But I hope, well, it does do it. I learned a lot when I was writing the book.

You know, it's interesting. Money can be a really, it can sound like a dry topic. But the history of money, why is paper worth anything? What's all that about? You know, when was the first coins? What's the history of money? You know, what can it help me do? You know, and it also deals with sometimes

not everything is about well a lot of times not everything's about money um so I hope it deals with it in the round it just gives gives children a good grounding yeah it's great and you know it really actually got me thinking about the fact that we as adults rarely use actual cash these days so much is about know, ordering something on the internet, and then it appears, you know, the next day, or a few days later, you know, do you think that that affects how children are learning about money? I think it does, because it's very easy to understand, I have money in my hand, when I buy something, some of that money goes. So it's a very clear, you know, if it's physical cash, it's very easy to understand the cost of things.

It's much more difficult when it's invisible money. And I absolutely deal with that. And things like transfers and credit cards and debit cards and explain that actually all money really is, is a record of numbers. That's all money. it's a belief system and it's a record of numbers if you spend money on your credit card the numbers in your bank account go down if you save money the numbers in your bank it's not it's not actual money being delivered somewhere you know it's just numbers going up and down so so it deals with all of those things because you're so right it's you would learn money very differently today as you would even 10 years ago you know there's we've switched we are I don't remember the last time I actually physically paid for something in cash so how do we address that

though because I've got an 11 year old and ayear-old and they've got their own little card and we put money on their card once a week for their pocket money and they can see what they've got and go to the shop and buy crap from the toy shop let's be honest but it's my seven-year-old especially that transaction is she can't exactly like you said if I gave her two pounds and said you have two pounds and the chocolate bar in the sweet shop is two pounds it's gone how do we get that across when it's in the ether well I explain I I talk about things like and and we we start off with needs and wants so first of all cover your needs and then And then I talk about wants and I talk about things like if you make a decision to buy something today that you that you want, but you don't just buy it because you've got the cash available think you know it might be a games console that I want in the future so I think

it's it's just making sure that you link the thing that they really want to get getting to understand you really want it or is it just that you've got your money on your card so I am going to go down the shop and spend it I think I need to learn from this it's like my 12 year old if she has money it's like it's burning a hole in her pocket she just needs to spend it and she'll have you know 10 pounds in her bank account and she's like oh I want to go into the into town and I'm like more to buy what she's like oh I don't know I just want to I just want to spend my pocket money it, no, save up for something that you actually want. But I think having those conversations about, you know, what do you, what would you love? What would you really, really want? You know, I think having those conversations, putting a value on that. And

I've got sort of challenges in the book. It says, you know, work out something you really, you dream of having. How much would it cost? Pony. It doesn't matter if it's a horse. You know, for me, it was a pony. You know, imagine that thing that you really, really want. And then then then think about how you how much pocket money that would take if it's pocket money or ask your friends and family how much they pay you to wash the car and try to work out how long it will take you to actually buy the thing that you really, really want. And it just starts getting them thinking about, oh, I get it. I see. You know, it's not just going to keep automatically turning up, you know, and there's no point me spending it because one day I just know I'm going to want that thing. I mean, we all know we do, don't we always? I've always said, I don't care

how old you are. I always have something in my life I really, really want and I can't afford. What's the thing right now, Deborah, that you really want but can't afford will you tell us will you share it with us well I it's whether I could afford it or not but I I would love a um Toulouse-Lautrec original piece of art because I just love his art so so it that that's rarity as well you know they don't come up very often. So that's kind of the thing that I think, oh gosh, if that came up, I would really, really love it. You know, I think it's also good for the soul to know that you can't buy everything. I agree. Do you think it's important that we buy preschool children things like toy cash registers?, oh, can't say the word, toy cash registers,

or shops to help get that message across, you know, the imaginary play around money. I think imaginary play around money is good, as long as it is related to money, you know, as long as, listen, it can just be a game, it doesn't matter, you know, if it's just kids should play, that's fine. But if you're using it as a tool, then there is a big difference between playing an imaginary game and actually learning about cash. I think you've got to know what you're doing with this. Am I buying it because I want them to learn, you know, to understand the value of money? Because I don't think the play in itself necessarily connects to everyday life. I'm not sure. Something that I'm quite a big fan of but I think a lot of parents

are quite divided over them are these are cards and apps that you can get these days for kids like there's one called go henry and it kind of gives kids the ability to um load money onto a card and they can spend it in shops and they can see on the app how much that you know how much money they've got and how much they're saving up is that a good thing in your eyes or is it kind of like unnecessary tech that's kind of complicating things a bit no I think it's a very good thing because because you know their lives in the future are going to be completely about that you know so there's no point me writing a book for children and not dealing with those things because that you know coins of paper money are very quickly gonna you know in their lifetime gonna disappear so no I think

that's really important what I do think is important is they understand where the money comes from um and again I think it's very helpful if they never have quite enough money you know it's very helpful if they just slightly need a little bit more, because then they learn the whole saving piece. I don't think it's helpful if money just appears on their card, and they could just go out and spend it. And then that, you know, there's no real learning of the value of money. Coming on to that not having quite enough money, with the cost of living crisis at the moment, how do you suggest parents who are struggling with money talk to their children about the problems? I guess,

how can you be honest without scaring them and tell them the realities without frightening them? Well, I think there's two things that are really important. One is that they talk about it as a temporary situation. So it is happening to us at the moment, but there's life beyond that, because I think it's very worrying, not just for children, for adults, if they think that this is it. It's just going to get worse. So I think it's an understanding of why we're in a cost-of-living crisis. You don't have to talk about bombs and the Ukraine war.

Just say that sometimes in life, things happen that mean that it gets much more expensive to buy things. It's always temporary because it is always temporary. Now, whether that's temporary as a year, I don't know how long that is, but it's always temporary. So I think you need to talk about it in a temporary way. But actually, I should have started with this first. The most important thing is to talk about it and explain what it means. Because if you just talk about a cost of living crisis, I don't think most children would actually understand what does that mean. All I know is you're worried. You've got a worried look on your face when you say that. So I think if you can explain that, and that's going to mean that we're not going to be able to buy everything that

we wanted to buy. It might affect you. It might be a good moment to say, so actually, there's going to mean that we're not going to be able to buy everything that we wanted to buy. You know, it might affect you. It might be a good moment to say, so actually there's going to be a little bit less in your pocket money. You can help us. You can contribute to helping the family so they don't feel helpless. They feel part of what's going on. And explain what cost of living means. What does that mean to a child? know you've just explained and and you know i'm a great believer in you know children will make up their own version of what's going on if you don't explain to them actually what's going on and using adult language we all use cost of living crisis there's a lot of that means a lot of things so i think you just need to be clear about it it's funny isn't it because i don't even have children. Here I am talking. It's all very sensible. It's much more sensible than my advice. Do you have any tips, Deborah, on teaching kids the value of money? So, you know, where do you

stand on kids earning money through doing chores versus being given pocket money? I think they both have their place. I think pocket money is important because you can actually introduce that a little bit earlier. And it also teaches them what, you know, it's that thing we were talking about earlier. If they want something that's too expensive, they learn that really quickly that, oh, that's what money does. I do think earning is also very important to learn early on. But I think sometimes I see people overpay children could someone overpay me please but but but I've I've had it here actually I'd have friends I'd have you know I say children

you know sort of 13 or 14 come over help out with the horses and and you think oh what should I pay them and I think well actually it's not that I being mean, but I shouldn't pay them the going rate for an adult. You know, they need to understand that there are rates of pay. I think they both, they certainly both play their parts, pocket money and earning. And I also think it's also important they understand that sometimes it's just nice to do things to be kind. Otherwise, money can just become all important. You know, everything's about I'm not doing that unless I get paid. So I think that and again, in the book, I talk about because you need to be careful in a book about money that it doesn't become just so important that that's all that matters. So I do and I talk about it is actually nice just to be kind to people.

And sometimes you might want to use your money to buy somebody else something else to be kind to people. And sometimes you might want to use your money to buy somebody else something else to be kind. It isn't all about you. I was going to ask you about, well, it's interesting to me that my 11-year-old has already fathomed very quickly there's something that she wanted. She wanted a Polaroid camera and she didn't have enough money. And first of all, she fathomed that if she found one on eBay, she was closer to having enough money. So she bought it secondhand. And then she fathomed that she's very lucky to have lots of aunties and uncles who give her birthday money. So she bargained with her dad and I that she could preemptively spend her birthday money and pay us back in September.

So we agreed to that because we thought it was quite enterprising of her, in fairness. What do you make of that? Have I totally failed at the parenting money lesson here? I don't think you have. So the lesson she's learned, I love that she's buying, that she found eBay and that she's buying, she's not demanding new. She's found something that is recycled. That's great in terms of sustainability and all of those measures. And that's going to be stronger going forward. I love that she's thought this through and come to you with a proposition. And really, you've taught her the value of loans. You know, you're lending her the money. So, so, so she now knows what she's going to feel when she gets to her birthday as long as you stick to it is great what she's going to feel is

slightly disappointed on her birthday because she's already had her present so so so that's a lesson in itself as long as you stick to it i do do see parents who do that. And then they think, oh, it's her birthday. We'll get her something else, you know, and that I don't think that's not helpful because that teaches you actually, do you know what? I can just have I can I'll have that, you know, I'll borrow the money and everything will be fine in the end. So I think it's going to be a really valuable lesson for her. She will feel mildly disappointed on her birthday. That is a good lesson lesson I'm not going to let my 12 year old listen to this because I just have a blazing row with her because she wanted me to do a similar thing where she was like well um can you give me next month's pocket money early

so I can go and buy myself a pair of Nike shorts and I was like no so I encouraged her to go to her bedroom and look around to see if there's anything that she could sell. And she came across her old sewing machine that she doesn't use anymore. And so we're trying to sell that for her on like Facebook Marketplace or eBay. But she thinks I'm the meanest mum in the world because I wouldn't do what Wendy just describes. Both of what you're doing have got money lessons in them. So it's not that one is right and one is wrong. So your lessons are before you go and borrow money forward, which is a dangerous thing unless you definitely know you're going to get it. Pocket money, she is probably going to get the pocket money going

forward. So that's probably not dangerous for her now, but it will be going in the future. And she's also now learned the value. Look, if you want the money and you want it up front, you're going to have to do something for it. Let's see what you can. And I talk about that in the book. I say, perhaps, you know, you might have things that you can sell if you need the money. So I don't think it's, you know, it's not one or the other. I think all you're doing, and, you know, you you're and I think both of you have done really good things there because you've thought about what you're doing and the effect on your children but if you're just going to hand cash out you know and then you know give

in and then say oh we'll get them something else as well that's probably not such a good message. Do you ever find yourself going against your better judgment in the den because you like somebody? Oh, well, you see, I don't think that is against my better judgment. You can't. Everybody has instant responses to people. You know, I like that type of person. I don't get to know the person in the den, but I like that type of person or I don't. But the person that you invest in is a very big part of an investment. So for me, the chemistry has to be right. Now, I don't have to think they're going to be my friend. I do have to trust them. And I ask all of my questions about the business, and I call it a row of switch. Kind of see this row of switches. I need to know A, B, C, D about

the business. The last switch is how do I feel about this business? And that is as much about how do I feel about this person? Because if I don't trust them, life is too short. I don't need to invest in anybody. You know, I do it because I enjoy it. I love startups. I love creativity. I love seeing businesses go from tiny businesses to big businesses or whatever size businesses that that person wants to be. That is fantastic. But I'm not going to get involved with somebody I don't trust that I keep looking at my shoulder. I have to think, are they telling me everything? Am I having the truth here? So if that switch doesn't go down, then I absolutely won't

do better. I don't care how good the business is. I'm not interested. So the chemistry, it's not like or not like, it's more about, can I work with this person, this type of person? Do I believe them? Do I trust them? Because that really, although we're in there for max, I think the longest I've done is three and a half. The shortest we've done is 11 minutes. So that was quite short, but you can't really get to know a person then but you can get to see how they do business great now if parents do just one thing after listening to this episode deborah what should it be go and go and pre-order why money matters obviously not to miss an opportunity.

And that right there, ladies and gentlemen, is why Deborah's office looks like it does and mine looks like it does. That's it. Don't look for another thing. That's all they need to do. Deborah, I've got to ask, have you got a bit of a black eye there? Is everything okay? No, I have. We've just had two rescue pups have just come over from Hungary.

And they're a little bit full of it. I know, they're lovely. But I have got scratches and over-exuberant puppy bruises all over me. It just caught me under the eyes. So a little bit sore. But I thought I covered it but obviously not well enough just got to check that one of our dragons isn't being beaten quietly well I am but do you have do you have a lot of um a lot of animals because you you mentioned that you've got sheep and horses I have we have so we have a small holding it's not huge but it's about 26 acres

and we have you know we've got space we. It's not huge, but it's about 26 acres. And we have, you know, we've got space. They're all rescue or rehomed animals. And so, you know, sheep that were going to slaughter or X-ray sources at the end of their life. And I mean, I love animals. And for me, it's a complete pleasure. And I feel very lucky to be able to have them around me. And I've got space and we've got fields.

And they, you know, they certainly add to my life. But I am generally at some point, you know, I've either got an ill animal or bruises all over me. Or, you know, I do feel I have to explain myself sometimes before my poor old husband gets a reputation. Do you have a favourite animal? Is that like saying, do you have, you know, is it hard to say which is the favourite? Yeah, I couldn't say. I, you know, although I have always had cats and cats and horses. I think when I was tiny, I used to hang around the horses so I could do help out with the pony rides on Minehead Seafront.

So horses I absolutely love and i ride most i've been riding today nobody can see but i've got a riding hat here but but but i'm a i'm a better person when i ride you know i'm better at my job i you know it keeps me very grounded animals don't care who you are what you're doing what's going on in your life they you know they need looking after and and if you're riding you can't think about in your life, they, you know, they need looking after. And if you're riding, you can't think about anything else but riding. So, you know, I am a better person. I feel very lucky that I'm, that I can have animals around and not just animals, you know, where we are, we've got some wonderful wildlife and birds and, and, you know, and sometimes,

you know, everybody gets this in their life and nobody has it all and you get I get moments where I think I have got so much going my head is going to explode and just standing out listening to the birds and knowing seeing the little grasslings creak through the grass um you know it's a very grounding and relaxing thing so I feel very lucky to be able to do it. A little birdie told me you're doing something around David Attenborough and tell us about what you're up to with these films that you're in Deborah so I feel very um very honored to have been asked to be part of a I don't remember the Wild Isles films which were all about our wonderful British nature you know we always look at lions in Africa and panthers and you know and and we never look at our own and i think it's the first time we've treated our own nature british nature um with the same respect so i i just absolutely love the

series but i was really honored to be asked to take part um using some of the footage um or made by the same company at the same time and some of that footage has been put together to present to businesses to talk about how business can positively impact upon nature. And it's a fantastic thing. And what I'm doing basically is saying to people, look, there are these films that are available to you. Show them to your colleagues, show them to your businesses, you know, and make a promise to help nature in some way. Because, you know, it needs a little bit of help at the moment. So it's a one, you know, for me, it was just a wonderful thing to be part of. And hopefully, you know, it's going to draw attention in a really positive way to our fabulous wildlife.

Well, thank you so much for joining us, Deborah. It's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. It's been great. Thank you so much. No, well, thank you very much for inviting me. I've had fun.