The Netmums Podcast - S11 Ep8: Ollie & Gareth Locke-Locke on their 'wild and absurd' surrogacy journey

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

The reality TV stars and new dads reveal the ups and devastating downs of trying to get pregnant via a surrogate, how they aren't allowed to even 'see the face' of an egg donor and how they divide up their dad roles with their new twins.

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollage. And me, Alison Perry. Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of The Netmums Podcast. Now, it's almost Halloween and I don't know about you, Alison, but Halloween, I'm going straight for a swear, straight at the beginning. Halloween is a complete shitshow in my house because the big one hates it. She doesn't like it.

She won't do anything. The little one wants to go as a dementor. That sounds terrifying. I don't know how I'm going to dress an eight-year-old as a dementor. And basically we have Halloween wars because the big one wants the sweets, but she doesn't want to go and traipse around the village dressed as a dementor to get them.

She wants her little sister to do it and then share the sweets. Tell me what to do! I definitely think that it's okay to go trick-or-treating with one child. But I would say to your eldest, sorry, no trick-or-treating, no sweets. You can't have it both ways, love. Brutal, brutal. Now, our guests today,

they're not quite at the trick-or-treating stage yet. Give us the showbiz intro. Well, I'm kind of keen to know how they do Halloween, if they do do Halloween, even with very small babies. So we have not one but two guests joining us today, Gareth and Ollie Locklock, who are both well-known for appearing on Made in Chelsea. The pair got married in 2020

and recently became dads to twins after a bit of a long surrogacy journey. They've launched their own YouTube series, Our Daddy Diaries, and a new podcast, Newly Dads. So you've really got no excuse not to be fully up to date with their lives. Ollie and Gareth, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now, folks, they're very tired.

They are in twin hell. Look at them. I'm just, I'm so pleased that you caught us at this time. We're actually talking about Halloween. Yes, we do look slightly scary. I've come as a pumpkin. I've had my foundation on. If anyone's not watching on video,

Ollie, we had a bit of a sleeper site last night, so Ollie's decided to cover up those bags with a lot of, it looks like orange makeup is actually for your backstage. It we had a bit of a sleeper sight last night, so Ollie's decided to cover up those bags with a lot of, it looks like orange makeup is actually for your backstage. It's just a bit too dark. Yeah, I've come to Halloween today

as a sort of Donald Trump, very scary father, which is fine. The hair's better. The hair's much better. Thank you. I'm just going to knock and show you the greys.

I've covered them all up. As the joys, when it comes to trick or treat with the babies, I completely understand it is a bit of a nightmare. However, last night was far more of a trick than a treat of a sleep session. And that's where we can start with that because that was a big night, wasn't it? That was a big night.

We'll come back to the twins. I want to know what married life's like, first of all, because you had a bit of a rubbishy start with your wedding being cancelled due to lovely lockdown and then the actual wedding being super hurriedly organised to beat the next lockdown. So what's it like to finally be married? I mean, we're coming to three years now, aren't we?

Yeah, three years pretty aren't we yeah three years pretty shortly it is it's gone really quickly actually but we did have a bit of lockdown situation at that at that point but it is about kind of communication and as much as you can and learning the beginning i think the beginnings of a relationship is trying to learn how to be married and also it's one of those things where the best thing about being married is everyone then stop especially about this whole COVID thing everyone stops saying when are you getting married when you get married when you get married because that's always especially because it took us two and a half years to get married and get engaged um I don't think it's any different thing I still

like you know it's I think it's the same as like just being in a normal relationship just you don't have that annoying question of being asked all the time yeah and i can't leave as easily that's about it something you threatened no i don't i wonder though if it's the same for for two gay men because you know when i got married everyone stopped asking when are you getting married but everyone started asking when are you having babies did you guys find that yeah which again is something that people that it seems that is becoming something that is talked about quite a lot because it is a completely unacceptable question to ask um some people don't want kids some people don't want them some people don't have them some people are struggling people are going

oh when are you gonna have kids are you saying am i not having sex with my wife yes i'm trying to but it doesn't take... Yeah, it's just too personal. It's no one's business. Try not to get pregnant. The whole 30s trying to get pregnant, it seems. Everyone has this sort of idea of a nuclear family. You get married and you get two kids, dog, bloody whatever, picket fence, et cetera.

And it's kind of just like, you know, get on with your own life and just go at it. But I mean, I think because we shared that we were obviously looking at trying to have kids through IVF, that became the next big thing. And we did feel for a while, like, because as soon as we start that journey, you're like, right, we're ready to have kids. You know, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to get pregnant.

You've got to be successful, et cetera. And at that point, you know, as we kind of pictured everything with those kids so that i think that was a long thing wasn't it three three years just over three again i think we did put ourselves in a slightly more uh let's ask the question uh kind of position by putting our entire lives for everyone to see so it would be weird that people didn't ask that question because they're intrigued because that is very interesting because obviously we were on the process very very openly our wedding was watched by three and a half million people um and so that was that's bonkers

and that was it was the highest watch wedding worldwide of 2020 and so i guess weird so people can eat your heart out i wonder if we can now create this scenario where if you know if it's a gay couple whether then because even my dad was like right how's it coming along with kids how's it coming along with kids i'm going to create a scenario now where people are going to be like are you having kids and it's just like get up a bit more maybe maybe i don't know that's we're probably a pain in the ass people now i've got actually funny enough i'm going to go and see a friend some family friends later and they've got their son just got married to his husband um and i'm going to ask that question whether they're asking

that question because it's it's as you say it's typically framed in the past it's something people were not we're probably the nightmare for people now for having done this so so let's talk about your journey to fatherhood because it really wasn't straightforward was it no and i think i think that one of the things is you sort of decide the avenue to go down you try to figure it all out we're very lucky that we had some good advice from people who've been through it um which i must say is the sort of that that's the sort of way around it because it is so confusing complicated and expensive and obviously the more confusing it is the more expensive it becomes if you take a misstep um and we yeah we just foolishly expected it to work first time you know and as there's a

little whale in the background yeah we've got our friend jenna kind is over because we've we've just had to get them back on a feeding schedule and their feeding time is 12 so jenna's coming over but what sorry i interrupted carry on but maybe you said it quite interesting about trying to spend your entire 20s not getting pregnant absolutely right yeah you'd spend your entire 20s not getting pregnant. Absolutely right. Yeah, you'd spend your entire 20s trying not to get pregnant and the entire 30s desperately trying to and having heartache. And it seems only when you are that certain age that people, you realize how many people around you are struggling, not only with miscarriage, but with problems with male fertility, female fertility. It doesn't always work. Even in the end, there's sometimes not a joy at the end of the tunnel.

So it's a very difficult thing to go through. And I think we assume it works. That's part of the problem. When you're in the period of trying not to get pregnant, you just assume that when you want to, it's just going to be wham, bam, baby. And it's not like that at all no you have always you know you're dating in your 20s and you're terrified you're terrified you're just like right okay no because it can happen just like that and some people it does

happen like that um but others it doesn't and even even us going through this journey are my female friends who are in heterosexual relationships they've they've gone out and got their eggs tested and things like that just to be like right I'm early 30s, mid 30s, whatever and they're just like what are my options you know? We are now getting to our later 30s and I am and a lot of my

friends a lot of my friends are now going through the situation at 37, 38 going okay what are my options now because I need to maybe pull in insurance policy or something do some eggs or do something how can i do this um and so that's a position a lot of our friends are in right now which is i think interesting if you want kids or if you ever think about having kids um it really does because it can be horrendous I've got some friends at the moment who are really struggling one's just been through

an egg retrieval and she's just like it's about keeping my options open I want to go out and do the things I want to do and then I want to have this option later on I don't want time and pressure finding a partner or whatever trying to rush these things

and it's something that whether we've come to the table and joined the conversation or held the conversation i'm not sure but it's it's something that we're now very much aware of so take us through so um you know you were very lucky to have um you know met bex your surrogate but before that you went through a bit of you know quite a few ups and downs to get to that point didn't you tell us about that yeah so there was we decided that we wanted to go down this route and we didn't like the British laws which are very um archaic they haven't been touched in 30 something years not that they were

progressive before that um they just haven't kept up with equality even silly bits of inequality when it comes to uh women are allowed to see the egg the sperm donor's face men are not allowed to see this the egg donor's face stuff like that which is still like complete inequality when it comes to that let alone antiquated completely absurd but yes i've got lesbian friends that have gone through this and they can see that they can see their donor and we are absolutely unequivocally not allowed to see them. But that is in Britain. Now, if you go to America, obviously it's a lot easier. It's more transactional. You can actually, you can meet the donor. You can, you can go on FaceTime.

You can go on dinner dates with her to find out exactly what she's like, exactly how you would in a real life situation. You would meet someone before you procreate generally. So that's how that works. We still, the egg donor no the egg donor egg donor too um so we went okay we want to see the face of the egg donor we thought that was really important we still after we chose a fabulous egg donor we were really pleased we had to go to los angeles we couldn't then get in because of covid we had to then meet in cancun, where the egg donor was from Brazil, to go up to Brazil. We went through one round with our

first surrogate. That didn't work, sadly. And that was from in Mexico. We went up to Mexico for about six weeks, came back. There was a negative test. We then tried to go back and the eggs were in Mexico. We then tried to bring them back to Britain, but because we had seen the face of the donor, we weren't allowed to. So we had to fly the eggs from... COVID hit, so we couldn't go back to Mexico. So we had to fly them to Cyprus. That's a well-travelled egg.

We then went to Cyprus. We then got pregnant and six weeks later, they decided they didn't want to to grow anymore uh we then advice of the i will stop this but this is the story no it's amazing carry on uh we then at advice of the doctors we were asked to potentially look at other options with surrogates um and luckily we were very lucky that someone messaged us on instagram and said um i would love to help you and that happened to be bex uh we then started and we really we lost all the eggs by that point from the ones from brazil and mexico and cyprus and so we decided

what we do so we went on to went into the london egg bank and we decided that actually what we wanted was babies and we didn't really care what they looked like. And, well, that's just something that we have to deal with. And so we found someone that we adored only through, what, the colour of their eyes, the colour of their hair and some of their, what degree they had, personal traits. And that's about it. Anyway, the first round didn't work. And that was a positive test that went about it anyway the first round didn't work and that was a positive

test that went very negative within the week and then we are here now on two hours sleep with fabulous twins three years later so it did work and there's a happiness at the end but it did take a lot of money a lot of mistakes um and mistakes that we are no a lot of mistakes because we didn't know what we we were doing because there's no advice but also it's just it's it's also about like you have to have perseverance with this and you have to have you know thick skin and like that we we it took us two surrogates four different egg donors four different egg donors five different rounds like it was it was long you clearly had like a serious battle to get where you

are today what changes would you like to see to that surrogate system in the uk to help couples like yourself and people to become parents first and foremost what I would like is the parental order. That's when the joy happens though. That's funny. Imagine the parental order and that's the kind of joy. Again, this is completely archaic, however you can explain that. Basically, when you have two surrogates in the UK, the

surrogate and her if she has a husband, go on the birth certificate as a parent. If she has a husband, go on the birth certificate as a parent. If she has a husband. If she has, if she doesn't, then it can be one of the, one of the, one of the people as part of the IVF, one of the intended parents. What, what that means is, even though they have no biological relationship to it at all, what that means is that if the intended parents chose to not follow through the surrogacy that they would then have to choose sorry would have to choose to keep or or have the child put into

the adoption system um had they put the adoption system or if we if the surrogate wanted to they could make life difficult for us to get the parental orders get the birth certificate changed so that we become parents of the birth certificate So you're already going to this thing where you have to go through and understand and trust and respect someone to be able to be like, we're going to this arrangement and one of us at any time could completely mix this all up,

which then makes people very hesitant to want to do it. Had Bex been married right now, our child's surname would legally be whatever her husband's surname would legally be whatever her husband's surname would be. And that was... Her surname's Ward,

and they were called Baby Ward for a long time, even though one of us saw on the birth certificate our surname was on the birth certificate. As Lock Lock, in the hospital, they were all Baby Ward. And we were like, that's not what it is. It was a weird experience in the hospital, wasn't it? And and if we would want to take the up in in right situation her husband would have far more rights that we would have as considered as the father than we would up until we had to go to despite no biological link with your babies they we have to go to the raw courts of justice uh in

uh in a couple of months where we have to adopt our own child legally. It's just a crazy system. It's set up to fail, it feels like. That's a good way of putting it. It's set up to fail. It's convoluted and also it's just unnecessarily difficult. And for whatever reason it's done, it really does make it very challenging to do it in in the in the uk it feels like many governments health secretaries etc and cameron was was uh very good

to get behind gay marriage back in the day however when and that but that's we're talking only how many years ago 10 years 15 years ago whatever it was um however you can't just take a small slice of the pie and not give you the rest. You can't sit there and be like, oh, there's gay marriage to get the votes. Sit there and be like, oh, you're then ticking a box for that community. You've then got to sit there and be like, OK, where do we work with these people to be able to create the family they want at ease instead of it being a massive problem? And right now, if you're in the UK, quite literally, if you're in the UK and you're a low-income family, you will not be having surrogacy. Because surrogacy is illegal in Britain on the NHS.

So you can't go through the NHS. Men aren't allowed to do it either because you're not allowed to use a surrogate. Friends of mine I've known through online have used their mother as the surrogate. So the grandmother actually did to save them money. You're allowed to legally be a surrogate so the grandmother actually did to save them money you're allowed to legally be a surrogate up until 52 if menstruation is still is still a a valid situation then you were allowed to be a surrogate and so they had to go through someone they knew very well which is one of their mothers to give birth to gosh um you've had a bit of criticism haven't you people who i guess arguably don't understand the surrogacy system,

but also other people who kind of worry that it's too transactional in other countries and it could lead to like baby factories. What do you say to those people when you get those sort of comments directed at you? I think the reality of the situation is, and what goes on behind the scenes, is we go through, because of the the laws even in the US and all this sort of thing you go through a level of like counseling and all of this um to ensure that this it isn't um done for anything other than altruistic reasons and that you're going into this wing wanting to be a parent I think the fact that we obviously have done all this to become parents shows we want children so much

and we have a lot of love to give that it's a bit like how would you want to stop someone who wants to be a parent this badly from from giving that love to a child you know it's it's it's a very peculiar thing but people i don't think one there's there's a lot of misinformation out there a lot of cross cross wires as to where where certain laws exist where certain things can happen and what and what territories they are but at the end of the day if someone wants to become a parent so badly that they're willing to spend all this money that they're willing to take all this time to take all this heartbreak and it's something that we shared very transparently like we found out the first time it didn't work on on camera i mean just because we were like you know what this is part of the process let's do it i think we thought it was

gonna be successful obviously it wasn't it was very upsetting but at that time we're just like just let's just go with it this is the reality and from that a lot of people have been through the process we're saying we're like um sending us lots of messages being like thank you because actually they felt alone and like they it was meant to happen first time like when we went out to mexico the first time when we're doing it over the u.s style um we shared everything and it was like you know it's not a one-time thing it might not happen it might not happen might happen and obviously people like please stop making it so easy it's not when it didn't happen i think a lot of those people felt represented um yeah was there ever a point when it all just felt so stacked against you you thought we're done we can't do this anymore i turned around to all the last time

it didn't work and i said maybe this just isn't meant to happen for us i say it in a slightly different way is we always wanted to make sure financially for everything with that. I think that that is a huge asset towards it as well. That is at this point, it was costing probably quarter of a million pounds, which is becoming wild and absurd. And luckily I was selling my house at that time. So I could take some money out to fuel that.

But it was one of those, otherwise, it's near impossible. It's, I mean, terrifying. Yes, we did think about potentially stopping-ish in our minds for 30 seconds, and then we pushed through. But during that period, I honestly, the only way I could describe it is existing because I don't think we were living we were going out we were having a nice time we were doing it but behind our eyes I think we were raw because we have been so used to someone saying I'm so sorry it hasn't worked I'm so sorry um they've gone etc like that and the there wasn't any upset anymore it was just a raw emotionless pit that it felt that you were just existing through life and that's what I actually

felt like I think and then also we were like because we start to start the year and be like right where are we doing Christmas this year we part my family in Jersey my father's up in Stanglia we all sit down in Southampton and it's like well if we've got kids and if we've got kids and then it's you kind of like make these future you're in limbo yeah in your life you're in limbo because basically you think of your future and you think well okay i'm sorry but at that time she could be six months pregnant so we need to be around we need to be here we need to so even throughout the entire process you just think about your life as your program and when it's not happening you're basically planning a life that isn't isn't yours yeah reality is on hold where you plan for something that might or might not happen yeah and so it's double crushing

when it doesn't because you've planned for it to be the case yeah this is making actually this is quite cathartic because i i my the twins i was not in the best place with this morning, but it's actually making me fall back in love with them. Oh, so how are you finding fatherhood? That's great. Other than bloody knackering. Gareth, didn't you say before they were born, you'd have them sleep trained in a month? I did have them sleep trained in a month? I did have them sleep trained. Okay, no. To be fair... I think what we need to start with that is... They were premature.

They're incredibly premature. Yeah. They were 31 weeks. So, well, we bumped into a friend last week who's got this wonderful little bundle of joy. She's just a sweetie and she's seven weeks old. She's now a gorgeous little thing. And she was there smiling and giggling. We haven't had a fucking smile yet. No. think no that's just a witty smile we haven't had any like i recognize

you that's tell our listeners how old they are they're 16 weeks old on saturday is that their corrected age or is that their corrected age would be about four weeks no it would be more than that five weeks five weeks five weeks okay i and also we we've we've been we were away last week so and a bit out of routine i had got them in a good routine it's just last night they just started to but i'm it's do you know what it is it's just discipline because it's it's um everyone comes over and they're oh can I hold the baby can I think the baby can I do all this and you're like yeah yeah and then you're kind of like right okay how much they drink how much they do so I'm quite mathematical with it so when I have been disciplined I have had them sleeping through but um just last

night they were they were they were um but I tell what, and this is something that I'm very open with, saying, if I could have a quick nap and wake up at Christmas, that would be lovely, because I've got a couple of months more of... Because I want them to be sitting up, I want them to be doing this, because we're still 15 weeks later at the slightly blobby stage, and that is that... You know exactly what I'm saying. They always say that once you're absolutely ready to cry and scream and pull your hair out

they give you a smile and you go well i love you and you go that's that and you've given me something back now yeah i haven't fucking got any back yet so i just want to start smiling give me something i hear you i remember feeling exactly the same i just want to fast forward a few weeks or a few months to whatever milestone it was. Being a twin mum myself, I know how full on it can be. And especially at the start, it does feel like you need like octopus hands. Like there's so many things that need to be done at the same time. Have you both kind of carved out sort of separate roles?

So it sounds like you, Gareth, are like on it with like the sleep and the routine. What about you, Gareth, are on it with the sleep and the routine. What about you, Ollie? Have you got certain things that are your thing that you look after with the babies? To be honest, she was my underdog. Chief bottle cleaner. It's an important job. Ollie's got OCD.

I do a lot with the bottles. But no, I do a lot with all of it, actually. And we share it very much. So you're, you're, she was the underdog and she was always my, she was born at two pound 11 and she was always, and he was three pound 10. So he had stolen all the nutrients from her, but she was my little underdog from the beginning. And then she, I had a real,

there was a connection to her that I wanted her to thrive. And that's obviously because he was a big he wasn't a big chunk he's a lazy little bugger and he was this beautiful handsome little thing when he came out and nice if possible she was not and she needed some fat

on her quickly but she was my underdog that I wanted to look after and so it's always kind of stuck that in the middle of the night we have one each and generally Apollo's, uh, Gareth and Cosmo's mine, uh, on the,

on the sides, because we know how they work super well. Well, it's kind of keeping them in the same routine and same places. Yeah. Um, and it's actually quite funny. Some,

some, well, Apollo wouldn't have woken up last night, I don't think. And then I'd woken him up. She's woken up. Um, so we kind of, we kind of share everything, don't we, really? That's the bit with twins, I think.

As someone who hasn't had twins, it's bad enough when you're slightly, I've got four years between mine, it was bad enough when the baby woke up, the four-year-old. The idea of the baby waking up the baby and then they're both wailing, I just, I don't know how you do it. Someone said to me, right, and they were like, like oh it's good because you won't know any different because you never had one so you just have two so you won't know any different bollocks

obviously it's less fun i'm like there's two of them it's literally simple math i'm like absolutely bollocks like and it's and then if i'm on my own while he's on his own and i tested this the other day if you feed one of them and even if you're they're not in the vicinity the other one knows and i went downstairs two floors to be really far away so they couldn't hear and i'm looking on the outlet monitor and then i start feeding one and it's like five seconds and the other one starts staring wow it's like twin like psychic twin thing going on here what's going on i don't know but it was but they have got to the point where i'm waking each other up now when i was i remember that well that i say i remember it was like nine hours back in the day three hours ago one hour ago and yeah i literally say to gareth i was like i could i could

i woke up because i was i'm i'm a really light sleep. Gareth's got a deep sleeper. And I remember being like, I can hear Apollo going. I was like, you wake him up right now. She's asleep. I've just got her down. Are you out of bed like a rat up a drainpipe? Boom, get the other one. Don't let them wake the baby. It's in Gareth saying, wake up.

And it's very much like, it's your one, it's your one. Because then it's... I love that, that you have one that's like, oh, it's your one who's your one because then it's i love that that you have one that's like oh it's your one who's crying you've got to get up that's brilliant so what was that time in hospital like when they were so prem and special care baby units are such a kind of um they're like their own microcosm aren't they you're in them and it's so intense and you don't feel like you ever leave was it was that made harder by the whole surrogacy process or were you allowed to be there and look after them we were allowed to be there i think to be honest with you were the terrifying thing obviously they were early, and it's our first kids. Also, we don't know, we hadn't really spoken to anyone that we knew had gone through this whole premature baby side of things

and what that means when you're in hospital and how long they were going to be in there. We left, and I was like, oh, well, we need the car seats because they're going to be coming home soon. And then we get there, and they're like, you could be here until November. And so you're panicking, you ask all these questions you don't know you're terrified you are they going to be okay it's like me development issues and to be honest with you it was probably the best neonatal class we've ever done we were lucky they were born in durham we had experts around us who really ushered us into becoming better parents. And the whole thing we just looked at being like, we just took it as a positive.

And it was up north. We started off at the Royal Durham and then we were in Sunderland. My mind's not working today. Sunderland. And we were just sat there with these people who work as neonatal care nurses or pediatricians. And they were just honestly the most lovely people. And, you know, and they're helping us. And I mean, if you can change a nappy in an incubator, whilst they're covered in lots of wires, you can change a nappy anywhere.

So, like, it really was that, the original thought of, like, when we get them home, what's it going to be like doing it on our own? To being like, we're literally like nappy changing ninjas at this point like i can do it in a team then problem wise without waking them up then i'm boss feeding them whilst they're tiny and then also everyone says to us coming out now they're like oh they're so small they're so small i was like they're literally five times the size of when they were born so i'm so used to, like, handling them now, whereas normally you're handling someone else's baby. But we did get to a point where they had to come home at some point and we were like, they couldn't blue light them.

They physically couldn't do that. And so they have to go in a special, they have to go in a special plane to take them down because that is something that you have to have done. Well, they have to move back to a hospital near you. So there's this incredible charity that the NHS work with

and it is called Leah's Wings. Basically, they fly sick babies around. Leah was five years old and died herself. The parents set up this charity to make sure that there was so they were flown down to London and then they were in Chelsea

and Westminster. The whole operation was like E.T. It was the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen in my entire life It was very sensory overload to begin with and then it just became normal we were in there for ten hours a day so it was terrifying and anyone anyone who is having you know complications with their pregnancy or any risk at all having babies early i would just

say that it's it's not something to be terrified of it's it's you know there are every beep that you go through is a beep that is is there a reason. The beeps in the neonatal sound absolutely terrifying, but they're not as scary as you sound. You can't get a bright, happy beep, but they don't make it like that because they all sound like warnings, but most of them are. Well, they are warnings. And the nurses are like, don't worry, we don't look at that.

We look at the colour of the baby and all of this. And they've got it so under control. And then it's kind of like, it was this terrifying thing that turned into a very positive thing. And we met lots of lovely people. I met lots of people who were going through similar things to us. What I found most extraordinary about it

is when we arrived back in London, they were in a room of quite a few people, everyone from different background of life 28 beds yeah every religion every every ethnicity of every every walk of life and we're obviously gay dads and again a part of that a part of that that walk of life that's different for others and yet as soon as you walk into that neonatal unit there is absolutely zero judgment by anyone and you or you but the only thing you've got in your mind is that you want each other's child and your own to survive and to be there and to be happy and to thrive and there is there is i mean it's amazing to watch that everyone is together at that point. And that is something that brings you back to humility, I suppose,

but humanity in a way that it is all together. It's just these tiny, silly things that people pick up and thrive in their minds about hatred and stuff, which is dumb. Because actually being in a situation where you've got something a lot more important, and fucking it is that more important, than whatever you think is right or wrong or whatever like that in the someone's imaginary friend tells them it's right to do it's quite beautiful yeah we've all got this unified thing is where everyone's had this baby so it built this commonality it was you don't even

think about it that way yeah that sounds special um and you've got a really really special relationship with bex your surrogate haven't you um and you said that you see yourself staying in touch with her long term does she feel like a member of the family yeah yeah so she came down last weekend she came down when she came down four weeks after it was four or five weeks no she came down she came down we had the baby's home for a week and she came came down with her kids and that was a very heavy weekend how old are her kids like six and eight six and eight and oh yeah okay stupidly bought the murph guns and i'm still finding the house i actually my small dog the other day just came upstairs was that yesterday i was looking at him and i was like what i was like that's a nerf bullet you found another nerf

bullet where are all these months ago they left it and this was like, what? I was like, that's a Nerf bullet. You found another Nerf bullet. Where are all these Nerf bullets? They left months ago. They left, and this was back in August. So then Bex, the other day, came down without the kids and we had a really good time with her. That was really nice. It was, I mean, that was a lot because we were a week home with newborn twins. And it's that stage where everyone wants to come over

and see you, like all your family, and part of my family are abroad, so they're all coming over and everyone just wants to come so you have to have like this embargo actually it's really hard it's something that when i had my kids wasn't so that basically there's lots of stuff now advice to new mums to kind of pull up the drawbridge and make a nest at home with your baby and your partner and don't move and don't let anybody in for a while just kind of hunker down and I did exactly the same I was like yeah let's go here let's do that I remember going to Bluewater when my oldest was like eight days old what the fuck

was I doing it was my birthday but nevertheless I was like i sat there in the kind of john lewis toilets in blue water with my boob out crying thinking what am i doing so yeah loads of people do that they invite loads of friends around and then they're like why did we do this yeah also why is this i mean can we please tell people when they come in don't wash your hands immediately just wash your hands immediately and don't kiss the children like Like, this is just, you feel stupid telling that to grandparents and stuff, but this is a very serious issue that people don't talk about. Like, we actually do know someone that's child died through someone's husband kissing her.

We had an article on Netmums, actually, just a few weeks ago, about exactly this, like, trying to raise awareness over not just kissing babies you know here and there and everywhere terrifying it was yes funny but we and then also it's just everyone thinks they're being helpful and it really was i think just for us from the start just for us to be because everyone thought oh you've had the kids for five weeks but we've been in the queue not at home um and then we just needed like two weeks what i look forward to desperately is I think we need to catch up every six months. And we'll come on every six months and discuss the first because everything changes so much.

So I reckon by give it March, we'll come back in and see. I mean, let's do it. This is a journey we can all talk about together. Up until they're 18. Let's do it.'s do it let's just involve wine next time i tell you what we started this podcast we have to have you on our podcast um and we started the podcast and it literally the first one we did it i was like this is therapy this is therapy and we have a glass of wine and we're sat there and we just talk about it and we

talk about the stories with the twins, what's happened with them that week. We get other people sending stories. And then we just talk about things that it reminds us from our childhood. And just generally have some fun with it. And then one time, I know twice, you've taken the kids with us, but it generally is. We go to the studio. We have like an hour, hour, hour and a half out. And we just talk to each other. And as a couple who you're so

in the parenting thing that you have to remember each other and i think that really helps our relationship doesn't it yeah we do have a sex therapist so top tip for anyone listening if you want to improve your relationship start a podcast yeah again it's communication i used to think something that i did the other day for one of my best friend's sons he's been struggling at school and so um he's got anxiety and stuff like that so i bought him do you remember we used to get the worry dolls so they're still available you can get them on amazon and stuff like that but they're made by kind of monks in mongolia or something like that and they're tiny little things but the idea that he's there on his own at night or with mum

and can tell the secret and then put it under the pillow, you're expressing yourself, you're voicing your problem. And that is, if you're holding it in, it's literally what therapy is, is discussing it with someone, just vocalising it. And he's vocalising it to these worry dolls. So actually, where we just thought they were cute little figurines back in the day,

you're actually doing something quite special, and that is telling a secret to a little bit of rope basically so it's vocalizing a problem that you've got and that's something for any month apparently it's helping him so it's quite nice we've got these things called worry munchers and they're little teddies with a zip in their mouth so you get they're for slightly older children but they write down what's worrying them and put it in this little teddy. They're like little monsters and put it in their mouth. And then you take the paper out overnight so that the worry's been eaten. It's a really sweet idea as long as you remember.

It's Tooth Fairy-esque. You can't forget because then everything goes horribly wrong. It'd be absolutely terrifying. You open the zipper and it says, I see dead people. Or if you want to make it like a tooth fairy you need to it needs to poop out like a pound coin or something don't nothing else to give them money seriously so talk to me about the podcast what's kind of do you have plans for it what can we expect from it other than sex therapy and you two having a row every now and again this is something we really enjoy doing and it is actually my favorite part of the week because we sit there and i tell you

what we always make sure that a nanny comes with us and we have a night nanny that night and that is a wonderful day to have it because we can go out there and we can go and have our time after that so if we want to we can meet up with friends and get a glass of wine yeah and come back at 10 o'clock in the evening and be like this is great we've had a lovely had a lovely glass of wine or five but that is our time that we do so when we're on the podcast we are there talking about everything you potentially shouldn't talk about and it's stuff that it's it's yeah have a glass of wine chill out do as much as you can but also it's not it's not advice as such it basically is for you to listen at 4am when you're pumping or you've got a basically is for you to listen at 4 a.m. when you're pumping

or you've got a baby screaming, and you can listen to it and giggle along because we're going through the same process as you are. I think a big part of our relationship is making each other laugh. And we get to that point where it's like a pressure cooker. And, you know, we find each other both incredibly funny. Less funny after two hours sleep find me hilarious um but no comedy is just like the funny part and even back to when we first started dating um some of the messages and just our sense of humor is very similar um so it's just this funny medium where we get to explore

being parents the first time and we're sort of at that pinnacle of stress and it is our complete decompression towards each other. Have a baby is not funny. It's not a funny situation. However, you've got to find it somewhere. So that's what we're trying to provide by being like, guys, we are going through this. We are going to laugh together.

Whether we're laughing deliriously with you or laughing because we've said something that a parent probably wouldn't say, we're keeping it in and we're keeping it raw and we're doing something that i was like guys settle down have a glass of wine we're talking about all sorts of ridiculous things terribly naughty things and and great fun and that's what i think we we can't take ourselves too seriously just because we've become parents also it's just one of those it's those funny stories as well and things to look forward to and that's in this moment that's where you sort of forget because we're we're now we're

16 weeks in and you're you kind of feel like nothing's ever going to change and you're a bit like okay whereas actually if you think about it these nights these non-sleeping nights that is there's a countdown somewhere there's a countdown clock there is a finite figure on it it's not it's not forever and there's some fabulous stories that people send in about their kids about potty training about you know first time to school one of the kids cut all the other kids hair off in the in the in the bathroom because their mum was a hairdresser and to work one day and it's all these funny stories actually we look at our kids right now and we're like we're in the thick of it and we're actually like and these are

all the fun things we look forward to you know i'm probably not cutting all the kids hair off the loo but it's it's all the fun things about being a parent. And it's where we are at the moment as a parent and where other people are as parents. And then just, you know, what it is to have kids and the things which people don't talk about that you need to talk about. And then just finding, you know, our relationship and us, how we're maintaining that

and how we're both staying in love with each other and not throttling each other, basically. Well, surely the night nanny's got to help with that a little bit. It's obviously, it's something that, again, I'm sure you'll get criticised for it somewhere along the way. I wish I could have had one at the time. I think it would have saved me much grief. Was it something you always thought you were going to do or is it something

you've brought twin babies home and thought, oh, yeah, okay, we need to do this. The thing is, we're both, I, like, for example, I just opened a restaurant recently, and I hadn't actually been to it until the twins been home for about seven weeks. So it's we have stuff that we have to do. But we don't we don't we have a night like once a week where we're just like let's just go out and do us tonight and let's just it's like having it's like having a um babysitter essentially but then they just they're through the night although to be fair i think part of the reason that i haven't gotten saved through the night it's the night nanny's fault and now when this goes live you no longer have a night nanny because

she's just resigned basically i think she's i think i think an apollo is a little can be a little bugger so i think as soon as she starts crying because i was like it's only drinking 60 meals a minute it should be about 150 anyway so that's i've got i've got the next three and then wake up an hour later wanting the other 60 and they're like well no no no no not how this works so we've got to talk about their names, guys, because they've got amazing, strong names, haven't they? Apollo and Cosima. What were some of the names that you considered

and didn't go for? What names did we... Do you know what? We found girls' names very difficult. Girls' names are really difficult. There was kind of Crestas and kind of names like that. And there was lots. Weirdly, we have no relation to Greek whatsoever,

but some reason is that we've gone down quite a Greek. I love the name Apollo. I love the name. I've always wanted a son called Apollo. I like Aphrodite. I like Persephone. I love all those kind of names. I always like those kind of names.

Having a little girl who's trying to learn to spell, I'm not sure Persephone's fair. We were filming Daddy Diaries the other day, and the producer was like, sending in all these people asking things, what they're going to call our kids. And the producer was like, Persephone? And I was like, Persephone.

Persephone. It's Persephone. But it is. That's exactly. But it is. Persephone is how it's spelled. It's Persephone. But it is. That's exactly. But it is. Persephone is how it's spelled. It's like. Yeah.

I'm not sure. Serpent. Yeah. I mean, difficult, difficult names. But we wanted them to be slightly different. His name is actually Apollo Magnus Obi. So it's a strong name. Yeah.

And for someone who's incredibly lazy right now, he's the grossest of all. He's such a lazy little pig. But no, it was. I think we were quite set on the names. We struggled. I think as a little kid, as a boy, I grew up, and you'd be like, oh, I don't like my name, Gareth. I'd rather be called Max or whatever.

Zach. Zach's good. Oh, I wanted Zach at one point. I wanted to be Rosie. You do look like a Rosie, Wendy. I do look like a Rosie. Wendy's really tricky, because anywhere... You get called Vendy or Vindy quite a lot by anyone with an accent.

My cousins used to call me Wailing Wendy. They're all a lot bigger than me and I did wail quite a lot. I wailed the man's name up until 1912. Did I tell you that before? I think I said that. No, J.M. Barrie is the one who made it a girl's name. I knew you were going to say that. I was like, don't tell Wendy. It used to be a man's name.

It was. It did. He's right. I'll give him that. No, no. It was J.M. Barrie knowledge. Peter Pan knowledge is very good. Is that because of the books that you're writing?

Is that why you've got such good J.M. Barrie knowledge? J.M. Barrie, I think, was an incredible writer. And I just felt that he, it's very London, Kenston Park Gardens, it's all quite close by. And the idea that you, the story behind J.M. Barry's situation, not with only the Llewellyn children, but the fact that the basis of what Peter Pan was, was his brother who wasn't very well, that he never got to grow up and all sorts of stuff like that. And that's where the basis of what peter pound was was his brother who wasn't very well

and he never got to grow up and all sorts of stuff like that and that's where the inspiration came from and there's a lot to it that was that's quite fabulous and the idea that he gave everything to great ormond street at the end um i just think there's a it's a wonderful story and it's where i just one of my most magical stories but But yes, it's London and magic go together hand in hand with me. And that is what I try and put in my books. Yeah, so Gareth proposed it. The statue in Kinsley Park Gardens,

I proposed because Ollie, it was one of his favourite places to learn, I proposed to him. So he does have particularly good knowledge on J.M. Barrie. Especially the fact when he used to be a man's name. Well, there we go, gents. Now, before we let you go, I could genuinely chat to you two all day,

but I'm aware that you have stuff to do. I actually have two questions. The first question I have to ask is what's with all the sweets behind you? I don't actually eat sweets. Can you see them? Look at it. It's like the biggest collection of sweetie jars I've ever seen. We've got a niece and nephew on both sides. My brother's side and my sister's on the other side.

When kids come round, it's literally like... Amazing. You've got to see their faces. That's hilarious. But you'd be surprised. I did it... We did it because our friend Jade, Anna Cooper and Julian have big ones,

huge ones in their house, and they just look great. However, so I started off by getting the flying saucers because no one wants to eat those because they're just a bit sour and a bit crap, really. Everyone loves them. They're nostalgic for anyone our age and older. So now they're eaten. So now it's become the state where there's sweets available for anyone that wants to walk in. And I tell you what, people go mad. Oh, can I take some for the kids? Yeah, of course, there's a bag.

It costs you a fortune. It's actually put me off sweets. i do you know what's quite funny because we're hated for it because the kids come round what was um who did we give a ben's cookie to the other day um how old is how old is um stanley one and a half no it's all about three great okay right our friend came around and we had a spare ben's cookie um full of sugar not great not great for a three-year-old gave it to a three-year-old by the time 10 minutes later by the time he was leaving he was just stood by the door screaming at the floor and she was like I'm now going to take you to Russia but you're welcome bye they're going to get their revenge on you in three years time they're going to do the same to

you quite right but as we started with Halloween, this is obviously a good time for Halloween. It's perfect. We live in one of those houses that is like Halloween street. So we've got the decorations. It's a typical London White House street, Chelsea house.

Yeah, we're going to have the trick-or-treaters. I'm going to dress, depending on how many nights, I'm sort of planning for it because some people do, like, two nights a day on Halloween, trick-or-treating. They don't always do it just on Halloween. No, it'll be around the time. So I've got a double outfit going. So we've got two pumpkins.

We're going to dress them as pumpkins. Are you even a parent if you haven't dressed your baby as a pumpkin at Halloween? I literally, I've got so many ideas. I've got pumpkins. Slinky the dog from Toy Story. I love, I've got so many ideas. I've got pumpkins, Slinky the dog from Toy Story. I love that twin

Slinky idea. Yeah. And then I've got, who, I've got Brittany and Justin. Brittany and Justin. In denim. Hang on, hang on.

Brittany and Justin reverse, in denim. Yeah. Love it. Because one's very blonde and one's very dark. So we're going to do, we're going to do

Trump and thingy, won't we? Because Jean-Paul Gaultier had that. This is where the fun starts. Now, this is why we had children. Yeah, there's years of Halloween fodder there, gents. I'm going to dress you up as something ridiculous so that I can get some enjoyment. And take loads of photos that I can then show you when you're older.

We've got the 18th birthday file. Like, I've got, you know, some really, really... I love how you're thinking ahead like this it is brilliant so final final question from us before we let you go um tell us about your new youtube series the daddy diaries it's been going for a few months now hasn't it um it's so slick i'm guessing you must have a camera person following you around unlike youtubers of old who would be doing it all themselves with like a selfie stick yeah i tell you what we've been really lucky and it was something that we were um we always thought that we were going to be going on to potentially doing another show

um and yet we wanted to i think hold it back we were like let's do it on youtube instead and so we thought we've got more of we've got more of the rights to we've got more of the control behind it we've got the edit of the control behind it, we've got the idea and let's make it how we want to do it instead of lots of other people with 20 different people in channels saying let's do it this way and that way, that way, that way. So it's chronicled our first sort of three months so far and we've got a few more bits coming out of it.

Yeah, we'll see what happens in the future. We've really enjoyed doing it but we're going to see, and it's started doing really well so we'll see what happens. But the podcast is... One day the kids will be able to, it we're going to see, and it's not doing really well, so we'll see what happens. It's quite funny that the podcast is... One day the kids will be able to, it's always going to be up, isn't it, because it's YouTube. So one day the kids will be able to look back on it and watch where we just basically were bashing our heads.

We're not going to go back, but we did sit there the other day and we do miss Made in Chelsea slightly, but I was like, I can't be getting towards 40, because Made in Chelsea, I started when I was 24, 23. But also, they've all just gone to Australia for two months started when I was 24, 23, but also, they've all just gone to Australia, for two months, and I was like,

oh God, what a hell of a heaven, I would have loved, being left, being left, back in London, and then you're just thinking, oh they've all come to sunny Sydney,

for two months, and these beautiful houses, and whatever, and then also, I miss all the crew and stuff, and it's all like, they're all like family aren't they, you just spend so much time,

filming with these people, and as we come to the end of the podcast, we've got our jenna upstairs who's just texted say they're sound asleep so that means we don't get to see them i was hoping we'd get to see them i'm sure we can no no just wake them up wake them up bring them down it's all good yeah wake them up listen thank you so much for coming on the podcast despite having a combined total of four hours sleep between you it's just been so much fun thank you look at yeah look at those i've got them and i've not been asleep i actually got eight hours sleep sorry i'm jealous thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, guys. Thank you.