The Netmums Podcast - S13 Ep5: Zara McDermott: Navigating the impact of social media on our kids

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

“No snowflake thinks they’ve caused the avalanche”. This episode of the Netmums Podcast dives into mental health, online culture, and finding balance in the avalanche of social media. Wendy Gollage and Alison Perry welcome Zara McDermott, a media personality and documentary maker, to discuss the digital age's impact on our children and society. From the startling statistic that a quarter of five to seven-year-olds now own smartphones, to exploring the darker side of internet sleuths and the spread of fake news, this conversation delves into the complexities of parenting in today’s tech-savvy world.  Zara also shares her personal experiences with revenge porn and the effects of body image pressures post-Love Island. Plus, get an inside look at her new clothing brand, Rise which recently launched in Tesco stores.  Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums 

You're listening to the Netmums podcast with me, Wendy Gollich, and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show... No snowflakes have caused the avalanche. Like no tiny little digital creator on TikTok who's only got 100 followers thinks that they're contributing to such a big problem. But actually, it's lots of little posts and and and likes and shares and views that equate to this huge problem and getting an individual to see that is really difficult hello hello welcome back everyone to another episode of the netmums podcast alison how are you i'm good today wendy um i've

just read a really surprising stat on the Netmum site, which is that a quarter of five to seven-year-olds now own a smartphone, which I kind of find quite mind-blowing. Your kids are eight and twelve, aren't they, Wendy? Have they got a phone? Yeah, that's right. So my 12-year-old has a phone and my eight-year-old has an iPod, which looks like a phone phone but basically she can only listen to music on it and I already hate how much time my 12-year-old spends on her phone. It's terrifying. I can relate to that. Yeah my eldest was 11 when she got a phone like just a few months before starting secondary school but there's no way that my five-year-olds

are getting one anytime soon. I reckon our guest today probably has a bit of a view on this based on her recent BBC documentary. Tell us, Alison, who are we talking to? Well, our guest today is a media personality and documentary maker who covers really important issues relevant to us all, especially parents. And she also covers issues around mental health. With it being Mental Health Awareness Week, we thought it would be a really good time to talk to Zara McDermott. One of Zara's latest BBC documentaries

is about her looking into internet detectives, fake news, and how online rumours spread. Zara also recently launched her own clothing brand, Rise, which is available in F&F at Tesco nationwide. Zara, a massive welcome to the Netmums podcast. Thank you for having me. You are a busy lady, Zara. Tell us, how are you? I'm really good, thank you thank you yeah it is a bit manic at the moment I mean documentaries launching my own clothing brand just about I think about four weeks ago now which I've been working on for about two years and like all the other stuff that comes around that that people probably don't realize you know that comes part and parcel with it um yeah it's it's definitely

busy at the moment but I'm definitely not complaining either because it's a lot of fun. I think the Armchair Detectives documentary is fascinating. You're looking into the impact that social media sleuths have on real lives, weren't you? Tell us a bit about it. Yeah, so I mean, in the documentary, we looked at a case called the Idaho Murders, which was a quadruple homicide that happened in Idaho in a little town called Moscow. online sleuths and armchair detectives can kind of take over, not necessarily an investigation, but public perception of an investigation, public perception of a case and an upcoming trial and suspects and how it can actually change people's, I think, you know, perspectives on something that's so horrific and shouldn't kind of be taken lightly.

But I think we're becoming as a society so desensitised to really, really huge issues and really sensitive topics that we're just, it has become the norm for us, you know. How many of us go out to a restaurant with our friends and say, have you seen that new documentary on that murder it's amazing we're all so guilty of it well true crime podcasts my friends are addicted to true crime podcasts yeah but not in like you say all of us are a bit like just like what's the word it's gory and we love it it's a bit weird that we all love it so much i know people want to get in the detail don't they but we were just kind of looking at and i look i think that

there's one thing to make a documentary that's quite thought through and and you know there's a long process to it as opposed to being able to kind of just jump on social media and say anything you like about a case or a suspect or a victim. And sometimes people take that information as gospel. You can so easily spread misinformation. And where is the line between kind of free speech, but also danger? Yeah, I think this is one of the things I worry about. Having a 13-year-old with a mobile phone,

you know, we were talking there about kids and mobile phones, and it's such a big issue that they'll come across something other something that they shouldn't but also just things that aren't true and they just believe what they see because it's on the internet um and didn't you travel to Moscow with a documentary to look into how much of this information is out there and what did you discover and what can we do about it the fact that all of this fake news is just out there on the internet I mean what we were looking at is I think the the reality and the community behind the accusations and the online sleuth sleuthing um and we yeah we got to go to Moscow I was there for a couple of weeks and kind of just like living there and being with the community.

It makes you realize like, wow, this place isn't as big and scary as the online world makes it out to be. So that was definitely really, really interesting to be there and see like the humanity behind the posts. And we learned a huge amount it's it's really hard to know kind of like I know the right thing to say when people say what can we do about this because social media is like an evolving snowstorm really and I I heard this quote the other day which I thought was really interesting and it was like no snowflake thinks they've caused the avalanche and I think that that's a really interesting kind of kind of headline I suppose to take away from my learnings no snowflake thinks they've caused the avalanche like no tiny little digital creator on TikTok who's only got 100 followers thinks that they're contributing to such a big problem but actually it's lots of little little posts and and comments

and and likes and shares and views that equate to this huge problem and getting an individual to see that is really difficult did making that program change the way you use social media? Yeah, I think that maybe before I was, you know, one of the many who were following this case, a lot of people were really into this case. And I think kind of believing anything and looking for a lot of information. I think when you get into a long process of starting to debunk everything that you have learned, then you realize, oh my gosh, what like, I believed that. I believe that so easily. Why did I believe that? I believed that this happened and that happened and this about the victim and that about the suspect. And actually at the core of it, you know, people have lost their lives and it's a

really, really tragic case. But also as awful as this case is, there's so many other cases across the world that are happening as well that need our attention and need our focus not just this one case and it made me realize like why do we get so fixated on these cases why do we get so fixated on the lives of strangers um and it I think it just made me a bit more reflective of how I use social media and making sure I think it's about knowing you know something on something like TikTok knowing when to skip past the video knowing when to be like this isn't for me yeah of course your first documentary was um revenge porn and in that you talk about how at age 14 a nude photo of you that you sent to a boy was shared with his friends and as a parent that is

my worst nightmare but what was it like to go through it yourself as a child um I think at the time when I look back it's really um kind of feels weirdly like it was yesterday but also like 100 years ago it's really weird I went through so much in that time period I think so much of it was it was so traumatic for me that I've mentally blocked so much of it out. Um, there's sometimes when my mum will be like, do you remember when this person did this to you? And I'm like, no, because I've blocked so much out. But I think the world has changed a bit since this happened to me in, oh my gosh, it would have been 2000, 2011. The world has changed a lot. So things are different now. The way I was treated after that happened to me was I was treated like a criminal myself. You know, my school suspended me. I remember having a conversation with a police

officer who said I could go to prison for creating child pornography um you know I was the problem and I think it's taken me a long time to get to a place where I accept that it's not my fault um but also I realized that at the time I sending my photos was a risk um and I think when you're a teenager right you don't your brain isn't fully developed like you don't have the understanding of risk and you don't have the understanding and you don't forward think as much as you do so I wouldn't make that decision now no but probably would make it again if I was 14 because as a mum that's what's so scary is that I can say to my daughter, OK, look, all it takes is for you to send a slightly dodgy photo to anybody. And if you then piss them off or they decide they want to share it, they can.

And I don't the scary thing for me is I don't think until they've done it and had it come back and bite them, they really understand the consequences of it. And you let that happen in the most horrific way. All I can hope is a mum is that wherever she goes wrong, it's slightly less traumatic. And that doesn't seem like a tactic for getting this right. It's to just hope. I know. But there is, you know, we can do all we can as adults now and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to make the documentary and the document and the documentaries

I've made to follow is because I wanted to create like a portfolio of films that can be shown in schools as part of PSHE lessons because I know I remember being that 13 14 year old and an adult telling me don't don't do this you don't listen right and well even if it's your mom your dad your nan your cousin or especially not if it's a math teacher or your re teacher who's telling you don't do this and this is this is what you should and shouldn't do it's i know better i'm a teenager better. You know, it's that mentality. And I remember being like that. So it's what, what I can advise is generally for people to watch my documentary, because when it is coming from your mom, who may have not been through that, it's probably hard to

like understand. Whereas that's why I think having documentaries like my one is so important, because it gives like, look what happened to this person when they did that you're not just kind of wagging your finger and saying don't you do this this will happen to you and the kids think yeah no it won't happen to me though will it won't happen to me i'll be fine the boy's telling me you know they tell me to trust them of course i can trust them it's my friend i've known them for ages like or in a relationship but actually that's not the reality so I think that's why I wanted to make the documentaries in the first place I think that's just such a brilliant idea to sit and watch your documentaries with older you know older kids and

teens not necessarily you know too young but another really important one that you made was the one about rape culture um which you decided to make after you were sexually assaulted at 21 by someone that you thought was a school boy how hard is it to deep dive into something that's affected you so personally I think with that incident that was a more um you know I was okay after that you know it wasn't a it wasn't a majorly traumatic experience for me because I think I was that bit older and I was I was more I walked away from that more confused and like I had more questions like how has this probably child thought that it was okay to to come up to me walking home by myself and assault me like what what where has this come from and I remember being in school and that being

a big part of my school experience you know boys touching girls and touching their legs under the tables and going up the skirts I remember that being a really big thing in school and I don't really remember anyone having conversations about it and I think that if we're not having those conversations when they're 13 14 or even 11 to be honest and when they get into secondary school what does what does that mean about the adults that they're going to become like that boy that assaulted me in the park like what what adult is he going to become if no one tells him that that was wrong well it's funny you said that because I think 11 it's actually I think the children's commissioner for England says that it's 13 that when children first access porn. And as a mum, I find it, I'd be loved to know how you crack this, Alison, because do you talk to them about it and then bring it to their consciousness if maybe they've not seen any yet?

Or do you think, no, I'm just not going to talk about this. What do you do? It's such a tricky one, but i actually recently saw some advice i think it was on the action for children website and they said you know that episode of friends where joey and chandler get access to free porn um yeah use that watch that with your with your teen and use that as a way to talk about it and open up the conversation it's like a slightly less cringy way than sitting down and being like today we're going to talk about porn um which i thought was really clever like just finding some way in um but zara what did you discover to like doing that documentary what what needed to change and what have there been any changes made since you made

it in 2021 uh look i can just talk from personal opinion. My opinion is that I think children are accessing porn younger than 13. This is genuinely just my opinion and also from my experience in school because I remember being in year seven and having all the boys talking about porn videos. So I think that we shouldn't be so naive to think that they are

deaf there's no access until 13 and also I think that with our children you know you were saying earlier you know the kids have got iPods and mobile phones like even if they're not actually accessing websites that are pornographic there's often ads that pop up on websites where porn is advertised. It takes one click for a child to access that website. And why wouldn't they click on that if they see it and it's made them go, Oh, what's that click done, you know, so I think there's there's maybe a thought process that you have to actually type it in and know what it is and find it. But it's actually it's in front of you and in front of our children so much more than we think it is. You know, I can go into a website to download a YouTube video and there'll be five, six porn ads come up.

And that's just normal. I see them all the time. I'm like oh gosh another porn ad but there's children accessing that and I think that it's the main thing for me I think is important it's important to have conversations so it's not a shock to your child when they go to school and they hear about it for the first time and they don't feel like they've been left in the dark about anything that it it's something that they already know about and they already understand um but i think that it's really important that children are taught and this is something we found in the documentary like porn is not real that's not real that's not how you have a relationship that's not how you love someone that's not how you show that you respect or care about someone this these are fake scenarios made up for people's entertainment it's like watching a film or a tv show that's not real life when the problem is when especially young males think that that

what they see in a porn video is how they should treat someone that they're in a relationship with or they're going to sleep with in the future and they think that that is what sex is that. That's not what sex is. And I think it's having those conversations where you're like, I'm not telling you it doesn't exist. It does exist. And when you're 18, you can access it. But what I'm saying is it's not real. That's not how you treat someone in a relationship. My favorite bit of that documentary was when you marched up to the Pornhub headquarters completely unannounced. It's like your full Louis Theroux moment. Was that absolutely poo your pants terrifying? I think so.

That was my first doorstep I've ever done, I think. I remember being able to do Vox Pops on Oxford Street when I was like a work experience student. And that was terrifying. That was not knocking on the door of Pornhub and saying, right, you lot, listen. I kind of had a feeling that they wouldn't answer though because I think they can see the cameras on their CCTV system I'm sure and they probably thought not today but I wasn't expecting it to be this tiny little I think it was like an Uxbridge or something this tiny little office space yeah

yeah i wasn't expecting it i was expecting it to be this huge like tower because of i mean they make so much money for on those websites like millions and millions and millions i expected a huge you were expecting pinewood studios weren't you like yeah but I was it was not that oh no um no another big worry for me I feel like this this podcast is just me listing out all my worries as a parent um but another big worry for me is body image like my eldest being 13 she's recently started using social media and also she's a dancer I just feel like there's so many pressures like potentially coming her way to look a certain way unrealistic beauty standards filters all of that stuff um what did you discover when you were making your documentary about disordered eating Zara um I think that was a really really eye-opening documentary for me

because obviously having come from Love Island you know before I went on Love Island I genuinely a hand on my heart have no memory or recollection of me ever looking at myself and thinking I don't like what I see I have no memory of that so I think in some ways I was very fortunate to get up to that place in my in my life where I hadn't had those thoughts but then obviously going on a tv show and having your body kind of everywhere and also you know voluntarily putting my body everywhere on social media because you know that's your then your job is to advertise clothing and bikinis and show you're on holiday and show your life and show your lifestyle and take lovely photos

a lot of which contain bikini photos like putting starting to put your body out there and then also you have things like the paparazzi, and then they're taking photos of you, and then people start to say, oh, hang on, she looks awful in those photos, you know, what, you know, she's editing her photos, and I'll admit, like, I definitely did when I was younger, like, I edited my photos for sure, of course, I think so many of us have, like, most people do I think that it it's taken me a while to get fully comfortable with who I am because you have to go through that process and it's hard because I can't say that no young woman will ever go through that process I think so many people will

but I think that nowadays I think social media is changing in a good way. And maybe people won't agree with me. But I really do think it is like I look, I look on Instagram more so than TikTok. I think Instagram is changing. I think that it's becoming, you know, there's, there's like real influencers that are coming through. People want to see actually like the kind of, the days of aesthetic images and perfect bodies and bikinis. I'm not saying they don't exist anymore, but I think people want to see that a bit less. I think people want to see the real bodies

and feel like I can see that person and I connect with them and I relate to them. TikTok, I do worry about a little bit more because there's a lot more young people using TikTok and there's all these dance trends and stuff like that and girls not wearing a lot and you think oh gosh how old are you like when I was 14 I was literally like I don't know I was wearing those you remember those glasses and like the neon glasses and like doing these signs with my friends like I wasn't in that space when I was 14.

So I wanted to ask you about your clothing brand because I just think it's so oh it's just be the best thing ever to do your own clothing brand tell us about it it's fab do you have loads of input? Yeah yeah literally like Rise really was my concept about four years ago I wanted to make a brand that just felt so I don't know about you but I love going shopping and I love shopping with my mum especially and that's our like kind of bonding time but I found that we were going to like lots of separate shops because something fit like a brand did clothes that fitted her well but I didn't like the style and then she'd come to a shop with me she was more of a young people's shop like not for me so I wanted to create a brand that was a destination for like all ages all body types all women just everyone

really and I was really inspired by a lot of the women that I've met in my documentaries I think they're like they're real women who have been through real experiences and and I wanted to create something that they would also love as well and just feel really comfortable and confident in I'm actually wearing a top right now and my leggings it's so nice is it just active wear and loungewear at the moment at the moment it is we've done our first very small drop with f and f um obviously you know when you start a new brand you have to start small you can't like do everything all at once because you kind of have to understand what people want to see you know what what do people like what do people not like um but yeah in the coming months we're gonna be dropping a huge amount more product so i'm very very excited so exciting rise is growing now i can't let go without asking about your lovely

fella how are things what's it like dating the king of the jungle it's amazing um i sound like i'm an old mum saying that sentence no no you don't grandma college someone said the other day I'm the queen consort of the jungle and I was like yes I am like that oh I like that yes yes I am that's good because you don't have to eat the bugs that's fine I get the crown but yeah it's amazing's amazing. Things are really, really good. We're really happy. I feel slightly like, you know, it's weird coming on the Netmums podcast and not being a mum,

but I am a cat parent. So does that count? Absolutely. I bet you get asked all the time, oh, you're going to get married or you're going to have babies. All the time. And be honest, it drives me slightly mad.

It really does. Because I think like, there's such a weird standard we have for women now isn't it it's like oh you're gonna have your babies you're gonna get married oh I'd love to see you guys engaged and and look we both did that voice that's the voice that people use as well it is they try are you gonna have a baby voice yeah it is just exactly the voice but I sometimes feel a bit trapped I'll be honest because it is um it's hard to know like what the right thing to do is in my life and I don't also don't want to do something because I feel pressure to do something you know I think that having a child is like the most life-changing thing and i don't take that lightly like i very much recognize if you have a child your life if you think that child

is just gonna you know when people get pregnant they say i'm just my baby's gonna fit within my life like they'll they'll just have to work around me i'm like you are delusional and yeah so like I'm not under any illusion that that is just impossible and I want to be in a place where I'm ready for that you know yeah yeah and I'm just not at the moment I think that's just so so good to hear Zara because I as someone with three kids I would say hold off until you are really sure. Exactly. And do you know what? I may not ever be sure. I may actually be like, do you know what? I don't want children. And that's absolutely okay. I just think sometimes there's like a level of expectation that that's what you have to do. You have to follow this, get married, have kids,

and I think that like, women are so much more than that nowadays. There's a really good book that you should read called Women Without Kids by Ruby Warrington. And it explores all of that. Like why as society we, you know, believe this and the pressures on women. So go out and buy that, Zara. But whatever your future holds, we wish you all the best, Zara. Thank you so much for coming to chat to best Zara thank you so much for coming

to chat to us today thank you so much for having me thanks for joining us Zara bye bye don't forget you can get in touch with us on all social channels instagram facebook tiktok just type in netmoms and you'll find us and if you liked what you've heard today we'd love for you to give us a five-star rating press the follow button and share the podcast on all your socials.