The Netmums Podcast - S14 Ep1: Adam Kay: My surrogacy journey

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

This week, Wendy and Alison are beyond thrilled to welcome Adam Kay, the former doctor turned bestselling author, who joins them to chat about his unique journey into fatherhood.  Adam opens up about the joys and challenges of raising two toddlers born just four months apart through surrogacy. He offers candid insights into the realities of fatherhood, from sleepless nights to the relentless nature of parenting, and the importance of carving out time for relationships amidst all the chaos.  Adam also talks about his latest book, "Dexter Proctor, the Ten-Year-Old Doctor," a funny and educational novel for kids. He shares the inspiration behind his switch from non-fiction to fiction and discusses the importance of making medical knowledge accessible and entertaining for children.  Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Netmums socials: @netmums / Facebook / TikTok / X  Series 14 of the Netmums Podcast is produced by Decibelle Creative

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollich. And me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show... We're going to be sick on the car seat and you've left the wet wipes in Wagamamas. Yes. Yeah, that's what... They know all this stuff. They're a lot cleverer than they let on, aren't they? This episode of The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Heinz, the best choice for a baby food. Alison, we've chatted about weaning before and I know you found it stressful. I'm not surprised with twins. Was it seriously messy?

Oh my goodness, Wendy. I think that we still actually have some puree that is basically welded onto our kitchen wall five years later after it was chucked there by a small person. I think the more they enjoy it, the more it seems to go everywhere. The only thing I seem to be able to get my daughters to eat was Heinz baby food. Yes, Heinz has got so many pouches now, which would have made feeding my picky twins so much easier and so much tastier when they were little. The range of flavours is incredible, especially the new Heinz immunity support pouches range. They've added vitamin C. Oh, that sounds amazing. I bet parents are stocking up on those. They're actually different from anything I've seen before.

Head to Heinz for Baby on Instagram or TikTok to find out more. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode. Wendy, how are you doing? How's your week been? I never thought I'd say this. I'm feeling broody. You can probably hear my ovaries clanging from the other side of the phone. So this is all because on Saturday we went to the theatre and I was sat next to the smiliest baby in the world on the train on the way home. And I might have had a margarita or two, so I might have been very excited and I was transported back to babydom um but I had the cold face of that sleepless night's lark I never thought I'd want a baby again do you do that or was twins totally ruined it for you I am horrified only because I do you know what if you'd asked me seven years ago when I had one child and we were like

struggling with secondary infertility and we really wanted another, I would have been like, oh yeah, oh yeah, when I see a cute baby, I love it. Now with five-year-old twins as well as a 13-year-old, I'm done. I'm like, I now know what it feels like when other people have said in the past, no, I know I'm done. I always was like, really? How do you know? Oh, I know. I think our guest today is the perfect person to talk to about babies because he's caught his fair share in his time. And he's a dad to two very, very small toddlers. So there's lots to talk about. There is, there is. We're joined today, I'm very excited to be that we're joined today by Adam Kay, our former doctor who became a literary sensation when his debut book, This Is Going To Hurt, sold over 3 million copies

and was adapted into a multi-Bafta winning comedy drama series for the BBC. Since then, Adam has become a dad of two and has become one of the UK's best-selling children's authors. No big deal. His new book, Dexter Proctor, The Ten-Year-Old Doctor, is a very funny novel for readers age seven and up. Adam, a warm welcome to the Netmums podcast. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to meet you. Now, you're in the rather unusual position of having babies who are four months apart. Yes. For anyone who hasn't followed your parenting journey, tell us how that slightly odd age gap came about. So both babies were born through surrogacy, through two separate surrogates, two very dear friends of ours and um and as a result um obviously surrogacy involves the vagaries of IVF you don't quite know what's going to happen when and then Ruby our first was born a bit

premature and uh and so the the dice uh landed such that they were four months apart. So sort of they're in the same school year or will be when they're that age. So sort of de facto twins. But yeah, it's a lot, isn't it? Oh, yes. How is fatherhood, Adam? Tell us. It's nine o'clock in the morning, dear listener. How long have you been up, Adam?

I've been up since five, which is normal. That's not too bad. I mean, you say that. It is quite bad, isn't it? Well, I think mine were like sometimes four. Okay. Well, yeah, I guess five's better than four and four's better than three so our babies whisper it currently time of press sleep well so they sleep for 11 hours a night however they're not the hours I'd like them to sleep because you know I'd like it to happen during the night that they sleep but they you know but so so they get up quite early and they go to sleep quite early but we do you know I'd like it to happen during the night that they sleep but they you know but so so they get up quite early and they go to sleep quite early but we do you know they they do have a

routine somehow and we're not touching a thing because we've got so many friends who like you know have these 90 minute sleeping patterns so I mean sleeping no complaints actually I'm not going to say no complaints overall, because I don't know, it improves your life in every measurable way, but at the same time is awful. So there's a huge net gain and I wouldn't have it any other way, but there is so much I would change. Like, I just can't understand the people, the, you know, the influencers who social media is intent at showing me saying how wonderful their life is. And they wouldn't change a thing. You would change a thing. Come on.

You'd change the sleeping, the nappies, the, I don't know, the relentlessness. There are bits you would definitely change. There are, there are. So I think we're sold a bit of a lie by the, I wouldn't change things. And there's so much I wouldn't change. And they bring, and every week they're, you know, they're either side of 18 months at the moment and, and they're doing amazing new things every, every week. But at the same time, they do need to calm down. Come on, come on, lads. Oh, I feel your pain.

And I remember you saying something quite similar when you were on Desert Island Discs last year. You were saying that your babies have transformed your lives for the better, but also ruined it. So I was really interested to know, what would you say are the biggest changes that it's made to your life, apart from

obviously waking up at 5am? I think I took my relationship for granted prior to the babies and I hadn't realised how important it is to carve out time and if I was rewinding back to them being born I would I would have been better at making sure that we always have a certain time a week that somehow I don't quite know how it would happen is just us because you can you know I do not understand I have to say how single parents do it because as far as I it's a totally full-time job for the two of us at home. We work from home. We're at home full-time. It's more than full-time for us.

I don't know how the maths works. But so I think that's been a big learning curve and just got used to, you know, because we've been together for 14 years before having kids. We came to the kids game very, very late in the scheme of a lot of couples. And I think I just got used to the fact that, oh, should we just go to the pub? Or should we just go and grab dinner? Or maybe we could pop into London. And so that's evaporated.

Ruby was born. That was the bit I missed the most, actually, when I first became a mum, was the spontaneity of your relationship and the just, should we just go to the pub? And you can't just go to the pub anymore. You can't just do anything. Like even things that are in the diary that you can't just go to the pub anymore you can't just do anything like even things that are in the diary that you know are going to happen there has to be this planning stage I feel I need I need some I need like a team of assistants and someone sending me a list of the stuff I need to pack and like it's just's just too, too, too much. We, we went out for like three

hours yesterday. And I think there was a good three hours beforehand, making sure we had everything sorted out. And then an hour and a half afterwards, getting everything back into the house so we could live our lives again. So, I mean, that's a big thing and it sounds, it sounds obvious, but it's only obvious once you've, once you've done it. I also, in my, you know, you imagine what it's going to be like ahead of your kids being born. And I hadn't imagined, um, Ruby being born prem and prematurity comes with various problems sometimes. And she's not been super, super sick, but she has, you know, needed a fair bit of, you know, medical help. And she's a, you know, delicate little duckling still. And so, any little you know bug that's doing the rounds will knock her you know totally sideways and I just sort of I hadn't I hadn't realized I'd be I'd be spending

so much time hanging out with um with former colleagues from the for the medical side because in your head everything just goes you know perfectly like the book you bought about you know what happens every single month you expect them to do what they're what it says in the book they're meant to do and I think the final thing that um makes me does make I realize as I'm about to say it it's going to make me sound I hadn't thought this through at all but it's relentless and weekends are weekends are the of the toughest um i i think because um you get to the end so we get to the end of a weekend whatever and then um we're like oh good they've gone to bed we can watch some telly and go to bed but then it there's no one to take over. It's, it's when I did a hard shift as a, as a doctor, I got some time off afterwards and you can't finish your 12 hour shift and

someone immediately phone and say, Oh, sorry, can you, can you come back and do another three days? But it is, it is relentless. And, and I think the times that we struggle are when we think that we've, you know, got to the end of a, you know, of a tough shift. And then it immediately restarts. And they have a way of knowing. They know when you're on your knees. And that's when they decide, tonight, I'm going to be sick all over my cot. And you're like, okay, yeah, just a second. Yeah. And I'm going to be sick all over my cot. And you're like, okay, yeah, right, just said that.

Yeah, and I'm going to, yeah. Are we going to be sick on the car seat and you've left the wet wipes in Wagamamas? Yes. Yeah, that's what, they know all this stuff. They're a lot cleverer than they let on, aren't they? So you've said in the past that you and your husband, James, approach it by taking turns with things like the night feeds, although sounds like the night feeds might don't whisper it yeah no we you know yeah hopefully touching I don't think this is real words but I'm still touching it

you know they that seems not to be a thing but we try to be try to be fairly equal about the about the terrible jobs of which there are many 50 50 yeah um he is uh he's a very very natural dad and he's just uh I think he's probably a more fun person than me and just you know um just is very great at being big and silly and you know you know, um, and just is very great at being big and silly and, you know, you know, filling the, you know, filling the, the, the, the time and getting, you know, grabbing pots and pans and boxes and things and, you know, making spaceships and things. So he's, I'm learning an awful lot from, from him about how to, how to do all the, all the playing stuff. I'm not sure when my skills are gonna come in. Um, presumably when it comes to GCSE biology or something I can teach you about the liver we're gonna come on to that in a minute I've got a question about you and your teaching

children things Mr Adam Kay I'm so fascinated though I mean being a mum of twins I'm so fascinated by the age gap and you know granted you don't know any different um but what's it been like as they've hit milestones like do they hit them at different slightly different times or is Ruby catching up with her brother or how is it or is it the other way around actually because actually she was born first even though she was premature how is it working? So Ruby's older and tiny ziggy is younger and big and so they've they've they've always looked like they were the other way around age-wise and you know ziggy was was practically you know running when he was you know uh when he was 10 months old

and uh and ruby didn't take a step until a few weeks ago, really until, until around the 18 month stage. So, um, that's been, um, the milestones have just been completely, um, completely, um, chaotic, but you know, milestones are just a guide to go and see, you know, to ask the question, is everything okay here? And because Ruby's had lots of support around her, we've had people say, now she'll give her time, she's small, she'll work it out. And in fairness, she has. But she's always been bright as a button. And so her, she's, you know, so interested in the,

in the world. And, and she started speaking quite, quite quickly. And I do think that Ziggy's had to up his game to be able to keep up with his big sister. And so, and I know this, I know that she's teaching him things because he says some words in a quite peculiar way that he just picked up from her.

So like she learned to say, hello, which she says, she says, hello, in a very distinctive way, which is desperately cute. And then he's saying it in exactly the same way so either they're both you know they're both watching the same tv show without us knowing where someone says hello like that or he's copying her so it's it's it's cute but um that's very cute they're getting on with it we're letting them get on with it that's all you can do i guess um now you've said that medicine is a career choice that follows for academically gifted scientists, but you've suggested that it's not a given that the same group will be emotionally secure enough to handle the non-academic demands.

How do you think that future doctors should be recruited to take account of that gap between academic and emotional ability? I mean,'s a very good question I think hopefully Wes Streeting's listening to this because we you know one of the big problems we have at the moment is not a not a not enough doctors but but b too many doctors leaving last year 10 doctors quit the NHS every single day more doctors quit the profession than retired it's it's an absolute crisis and that it's not just about well we need to train more people up we need to we can't you can't run the run the the taps in the bath if the if the plugs out so getting the right people there is absolutely is absolutely crucial so at the moment we get people with straight A's at A-level,

and we insist they've got all sorts of extracurricular activities and interests, and we insist they do work experience in a hospital environment. And I think I would rip up all of those three things. Because straight A's at A level, the best doctors aren't the cleverest doctors. It is not a job about, you know, memorizing biochemical pathways. It's a job about communicating. And, you know, you need to have the basic level of knowledge, but that isn't necessarily a straight A person. I think we're losing a lot of brilliant would-be doctors by insisting on these straight A's. And so I would drop the academic requirements right down, and I would really, really put it massively onto the interview. And as part of the interview,

as well as working out, does this person seem like they'd be a good, kind, empathetic doctor who understands what the job would involve and how they're going to cope with the bad days? I think I would restrict it to a postgraduate entry. I think that it's very difficult at 18 years old to know how you are going to cope. I didn't. I think it might be, you know, you're an idiot when you're 18. I mean, but you're meant to be. But when you've, a few years later, if you've left home, if you've had to earn some money for yourself,

if you potentially had a relationship, all these things that sort of open up your outlook on the world, I think that makes you in a much better position to give informed consent, you would call it in the medical profession. When you go for a procedure, they say, here are the benefits and here are the risks. And I think you're still an idiot when you're 21, obviously, but I think you're in more of a position to work out what the risks are to you and whether this is actually right. I would also definitely get rid of the extracurricular stuff. You have to have grade eight over and be captain of the rugby team because that is essentially a way of increasing the odds if you went to a fee-paying school.

They can't say, we want a high proportion of kids from private schools because that's against the law and everyone will go to prison involved with it but the fact that they sort of you know insist on high level uh extramural stuff which is the stuff that obviously some certain schools you know pride themselves on and you know not that it obviously doesn't happen in the state sector but you know the facilities the lacrosse pitches or whatever they're called you know in private schools are always going to be better

that it's that feels a bit ugly to me and likewise insisting on work experience most kids the only doctor they know is the one who provides their you know their antibiotics and their asthma inhaler or their you know their epilepsy and their aspirin halo or their you know their epilepsy meds or their insulin or whoever um chances are you know you're at one of these private schools you're more likely to you know have parents who hang out in the playground with a bunch of other you know surgeons and anesthetists and whatever who can say oh no we'll sort him out with some work experience, don't you worry.

So there's a lot I would change about it with the eventual aim of not just keeping the doctors in the job because they're best suited to it, but also making sure that the doctors, and the same applies across all the healthcare professions, but making sure that the doctors represent their patients. This is a quick reminder that this episode is brought to you by Heinz, the best choice for baby food. Whether you're just starting out on the weeding journey,

you've got a picky eater or a baby who loves new flavours, Heinz is the best choice for you. Their huge range of pouches and delicious flavours makes it so easy for us parents. Head to Heinz for Baby on Instagram or TikTok to find out more. So we're recording this, it's July at the moment. We've just had a general election and we have a new government in place. What are your hopes for the NHS? And what words do you have for our new health minister? I am hopeful. And this is going out in the future. So time will tell. I'm very hopeful, actually, on the basis that things are in a terrible state at the moment.

I've not witnessed the NHS ever in the state that it is at the moment. And it needs some... Which, can I just interrupt and say, given the state it was in when you wrote, this is going to hurt, is a relatively significant statement to make. Oh, those were the good old days it turned out i don't know what i was complaining about it's like literally um you know i i i'm speaking to my speaking to my you know former colleagues still my mates working in the health service

it's it's impossibly difficult you know i doing, I wrote about doing one person's job, you know, you know, my mates are now doing three people's jobs because the other two have moved to Australia and it's, you know, it's hard to blame them. Um, so hopefully by the time people listening to this, the strikes will be a thing of the past and the, uh, the the the new government will have seen sense and uh and come to an arrangement with the the junior doctors and hopefully there will be a plan for the nhs because at the moment the plan seems to have been one of hope and hope hope is not a strategy and like they they've just been hoping the waiting lists down and somehow that's not that's not worked um strange that ultimately the nhs does need a lot more money um that's that's the only way to it's there's a there's a boring concept called health inflation, which is the amount of money you need

to pump into a health service wherever you are in the world to provide the same level of service you did the year before. And that's sort of around 3% on top of inflation. And that accounts for your population getting older, getting sicker, it accounts for new medicines, new scanners, all this technology stuff coming in. And if you don't do that, then each subsequent year, your health service is more stretched than the year before. So anytime a minister names a number that's less than 3% on top of inflation, then they are actually making life tougher for the people there. So, I mean, you know, I know that what they talk about ahead of an election isn't necessarily what happens, but a number of 1 point something percent was mentioned, which did worry me. But I mean,

but that was before they were in power. Let see what happens there's been some some stuff uh talked about which i found very encouraging a lot of talk about prevention and prevention has to be the answer um you know you can't have you prevent illness prevention is better than cure and and prevention is more than just you know public health campaigns and smoking and and alcohol and things like that it's um it's housing and it's and it's employment because you don't have a healthy population if they're not in good jobs and if they're not in in good um accommodation and they don't have the social support that they they need so that's been talked about which is which is good and joining up health

and social care has been talked about that's been talked about since long before i was born but it's the same it's the same issue if someone can't be discharged from a ward because they um because there's nowhere for them to to move into because they don't have the social care in place then that backs up until an ambulance can't get into the A&E department and um and it's so that so so, I've heard some good things being said. I've met Wes Streeting in the past at a social event, at one of these sort of charity award things. And he was very nice and clearly very smart. And I've been impressed by a lot of the stuff he's said.

But those are all words so far, and soon we'll see actions. But fingers firmly crossed, because it's not about politics. It's not about this is this team wearing this rosette compared to that team wearing that. It's about our health. It's about our life expectancy. It's about our children's well-being. It's about our life expectancy it's about our children's well-being it's about will our children have a health service that's free at the point of access and um and that's the fairest way to apportion health and i and i really hope that it turns around because i don't think there's a huge amount of time of things i don't think things can go wrong for much longer before it reaches the point of no return. So taking you back to what you now say is the golden days for This Is Going To Hurt,

it has been hugely successful. And when I read it, I felt it was very true. It was very real. Lots of it resonated with my experience. But especially when the TV show came out, there were lots of women who felt it demeans their experiences. And you got called all sorts of things along the way, from sexist to misogynist. And I'd love to know, first of all, what inspired you to write it? And then how you felt when that backlash came out, particularly after the TV show? So I decided to make the TV show very different to the book. And I centered the TV show on mental health of doctors, which is something that I've worked as hard as I can to bang the gong for since I've left the the profession and the the show was was based around a junior doctor who was fictionalized but based on people who I knew sadly um called Shruti who um at the end this is quite a major spoiler but i mean people have

had the best part of two years to to watch it who at the end of the series um takes her life and um it's it's it's hopefully the series is an exploration of that which makes it much much darker than the book and very different in um in lots of ways um but one junior doctor in the uk takes their life every three weeks a nurse in the in the nhs takes their life every single week it never gets talked about And this was my opportunity to bring it, this issue to 10 million people a week on the BBC. And I was very grateful to the BBC for allowing me to, to,

to, to, to have that, that platform and, and tell this story and raise this awareness. And, and since then there's, you know, we've seen some, some things change in all sorts of ways. I've had opportunities to speak to all sorts of important people and,

you know, a little thing that's, that's happened is that, um, a charity that I worked with getting this storyline respectful and an appropriate doctors in distress. We're now working very closely together and I've planted lots of trees outside hospitals, which echoes something that happened in the series. There was a memorial tree to this Dr. Shruti in the series. And it turned out there was no memorial in the UK to healthcare workers who've lost their lives to suicide so um since that we started at the hospital where this was where this was uh the exteriors were shot at Ealing Hospital in um in West London and since then we've been around you know a dozen or more other hospitals and and i think we've got the cash together now to offer every nhs organization who who wants uh this that you know the chance to to have a tree

planted like that and it's that's not going to make a difference it's only a tree but it admits that there's a there's a problem and i think this is a problem that through, you know, stigma and shame and taboo just gets brushed under the carpet. So I'm very proud that too much backlash because I, and I don't read too much, whatever the opposite is of backlash, because I think it can, um, I think it can drive you,

um, drive you a bit mad in either direction. I think it can, it can turn people into ego monsters if they only read the, you know, the, the positive stuff. I'm very proud of the,

of the, of the series. proud of the series and which was, you know, a series, you know, other than me, I think pretty much everyone in senior roles was a woman who made the show, you know. It was also very funny, aside from the backlash. Yeah, okay, good. I think if you're a doctor doctor it's not a funny show because it's too realistic potentially it's um it's a lot of doctors said how close to to home it it was and um um and also i i spoke to lots of people who weren't doctors

who found it difficult to watch because they didn't have the easiest experience on on labour ward and what it wasn't was a varnished version and I wanted to paint a um a story that was that showed a system that was struggling and it showed people who were struggling and it showed people, healthcare staff behaving in bad, you know, in, in, in ways that they shouldn't necessarily because of the pressures they were under. And I don't, I wonder, I mean, as I said, I've not read a lot of, a lot of this stuff, because why would you expose yourself to that? But I suspect people may have thought I was trying to glorify behavior, whereas in fact, I was trying to show the opposite and people behaved badly because they were under

stress or the system wasn't supporting them. And then there were consequences to that. I think that every single badly behaved member of staff who acted in a way they shouldn't sees consequences to their actions as the series goes on. So, I mean, then again, you can't say or do anything and please anyone or everyone. It helps to please some people. But I was very proud of what we did and in particular what we've achieved in terms of raising the awareness of the mental health struggles of healthcare staff, which is what I set out to do. I think you absolutely did that brilliantly. Do you have any plans to turn any other books into TV adaptations? Obviously, a bit easier with fiction books, you know, the ones that you're starting to write now. But when you think about other kids TV shows about medicine and about

science, it's totally possible with your non-fiction books too is that is that in the pipeline at all it's not in the pipeline but it could i could shove it down the pipe at some point i'm so i'm very lucky at the moment in that i'm i'm very busy with my with my books and i haven't i don't know haven't really thought about that a huge, a huge amount. I mean, I love the idea of educating kids. And so far I've been doing that through my, I've done that with my nonfiction books. And I dare say there's other ways of doing it through telly or also on the, on the stage. I must say I've had, so I go, I tour with my, I tour, I've got a grown up show, stand

up comedy. I had one for This Is Gonna Hurt. I'm, I'm on tour with Undoctored at the moment, which was my, which was my latest book for grownups. And loads of, loads of people come up to me as to me as you know I'll hang around afters and sign books if people want that and um loads of people say my nine-year-old was desperate to come to this but I think it's just as well that I said no and the answer is yes but that does make me think maybe I should maybe I should uh uh maybe I should do some some theater events for for younger

kids I've done quite a bunch of school events, which are great fun. No one asks questions like kids and no one's honest like kids. Well, I want to ask you about that, Adam. Of course, we've talked about your children's books. I have to thank you, I think, for your first kids book, Kay's Anatomy, because it prompted my first birds and bees chat with my eldest daughter. But it gave her more questions than answers. So I'm not sure I actually thank you. what made you decide to write for kids after this is going to hurt because that's a brilliant book for kids and both of my girls have really enjoyed the way the pictures especially are good as well it's just a great introduction to the body for kids why did you go for kids after your first book I think the body is amazing and fascinating and brilliant and I think everyone should think this and everyone

should understand their bodies. And, you know, like we were talking about before, you know, prevention better than cure, right at the very start of it is understanding your body and, you know, when something's not right and when to speak to someone and what to, and I think that's something you should know from the very start. And I think potentially kids don't think it's an exciting thing or an amazing thing because they're forced to learn about it at school and I wanted to have a go at making including all the facts but making it funny and silly and memorable and just you know seeing what could what I could you know seeing what I could persuade kids that they wanted to learn about.

And it's a very chunky book. It's 400 plus pages. It's got all the human biology you need to know GCSE and beyond, but in a hopefully funny way. And not just the facts, the stuff they'll have to know for their exams. It doesn't shy away from talking about, you know, neurodiversity. And, you know, we talk about mental illness. And we talk about body image.

And we talk about smoking and drugs. And also there's a chapter on on reproduction um because that's an important thing and um i got a huge amount of help and advice um across the book but particularly for for that chapter getting it age appropriate, making sure that, you know, I'm using all the right language and, but also somehow keeping it light enough that it doesn't then change into a totally different book for a chapter before going back to disgusting facts about snot or whatever. So that's the chapter that I've had most parents say to me, oh, cheers for that. Because, I mean, I'm very lucky.

I'm trained and vaguely knowledgeable in that. Plus, I had, you know, a year and a half of working with other people to get it right. And that's potentially easier for me than for a random mum being hijacked by a child saying, right, tell me about babies. So hopefully if I can subcontract some of that work in the book, then they're obviously going to have a million questions still, but better for them to learn it from me. I'm hopefully more accurate than their friend Marcel in the playground. I think you are. I think you are. And as we've mentioned, Dexter Proctor, the 10-year-old doctor, is your first foray into fiction. Tell us about Dexter, but also I'm really interested to know what made you switch from nonfiction to fiction writing.

So, Dexter, I mean, I think the title, it's a fairly Ron Seale proposition. He's a 10-year-old doctor. He was quite a high-level genius. He was born speaking. He sort of smashed his way through Wikipedia by the time he was about six months old finished school with you know 80 odd a levels before too long um and um and then saw something on the news about me about the lack of doctors and was like you know i reckon i can i can do that and he's pretty good at the whole, the whole doctoring thing. And hopefully hilarity ensues. Um, but, um, hopefully it's, it doesn't, I want it to be more than just a funny

book, which hopefully it is. Um, I want it to demystify hospitals a bit which I think for for kids are weird unknowable places oh no this person's gone to hospital what does that mean I've got to go to hospital this sounds awful um there's a lot of by the nature of the of the stories and the things he's investigating and the patients he's helping there's a lot of you know medicine sort of gently sprinkled in there. So hopefully there's some learning to do. And also Dexter's, even though he's got this sort of, you know, almost superpower with his, you know, with his medical brain, he does struggle to fit in and find his way. And he's got, you know, he's got some people who aren't such a fan of of him both at school and and at work and no it's about it's about finding your way through life so even though he's not directly relatable because there's probably not a huge number of uh 10 year old doctors going to be

reading it um hopefully um hopefully people can see a bit of themselves in some of the issues he um he goes through and it's um once again it's illustrated by Henry Packer who's illustrated all of my non-fiction books um before and is uh Henry's a comedian by by by trade as well as a writer and illustrator and he adds so much comedy to it and he um he um uh we write it all we write it all together and it's a big collaborative process um so um yeah it was i mean it's been been great fun to write we've had really lovely feedback from from the people who've read early copies like people like you know Jacqueline Wilson and Frank Cottrell Boyce and yeah all my all my kids writing heroes have have been so sweet

about it so fingers fingers crossed that some of the um some of the actual reading age will enjoy it when it's when it's out why fiction um I love fiction I love telling stories a lot of this you know the stuff I write for telly is fiction it's something I I've never I've never done on um you know in in books before but um yeah it's a it's I think it's a fun idea and it's and it's one I've wanted to write and we'll find out whether the audience agrees. Fingers crossed. Thank you, Adam. It has been a pleasure to talk to you this morning. Thank you for joining us.

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