The Netmums Podcast - S14 Ep4: Dr. Rangan Chatterjee - Balancing Tech and Family Life

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

This week, Wendy and Alison are delighted to welcome Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, host of Europe’s biggest health podcast Feel Better, Live More, author of 5 Sunday Times Bestselling Books and star of BBC One’s Doctor In The House. '  Diving into the ups and downs of modern parenting, Dr. Chatterjee addresses the stress and pressure of parenting in a digital world and shares practical tips, like setting aside tech-free time with kids.  With useful insights on parenting and self-growth, he also discusses his support for the "Smartphone Free Childhood" campaign which shields children from the downsides of constant connectivity. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Netmums socials: @netmums / Facebook / TikTok / X  Series 14 of the Netmums Podcast is produced by Decibelle Creative

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollich. And me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show... You know, we all go through a stage where we rebel against our parents. You know, what must it be like then, being my children? Like, when I talk about wellness and health and happiness all the time... Oh my God, Dad's talking about gut health again. Exactly! But before all of that...

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the NetRoms podcast. Now, I'd like to kick off, Alison. I want to talk about teens and phones because I saw in the news this morning there is a whole town trying to get parents to ban them until year nine, which I'm fully down for, might we add add and my daughter's school banned them completely as of the start of this autumn term and there isn't a day goes by on netmums where we don't get some sort of story about managing kids and smartphones so I wondered where you sit on the smartphone I just think so my eldest has just turned 14 and I I feel like we've just got to this situation where it's just become the norm for us to give our year six

or year seven kids a smartphone. And then maybe by age 13, 14, they're on social media. But even if you make the decision not to give them those apps, they're sat on the bus next to a friend who is on TikTok or who is on Snapchat. And I just feel like as parents,

something has changed. i feel like we need to all come together and create some kind of new normal because it's all just it's all just you know getting too much and kind of traveling away from us and we can't get control of the situation and it kind of terrifies me i'm pretty sure our guest is going to have an opinion on this. So I'll let you do his very shiny showbiz intro. Well, I am very excited to chat to today's guest. He is brimming with wisdom, his own and the nuggets that he has gleaned from the many guests of his hugely successful podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Dr. Rangan Chatterjee is also the author of several books and in 2025 he's heading out on tour.

I'm going to be there, front row. Rangan, welcome to the Netmums podcast. Thank you, thank you guys for having me. Alison, Wendy, it's a pleasure to be on the show now no pressure but we're expecting to walk away from this feeling like new versions of ourselves yeah just from the conversation yeah just from what you tell us okay even even before doing anything just just from conversing together okay great no pressure at all none whatsoever now i know you recently started working on a tv documentary about teenagers and smartphones and as I've already said there's some stuff going on in my house with smartphones at the moment how big a problem do you think we have with this young people

smartphone issue what's the solution okay how big of a problem is it? Okay, for me, I think the way we introduce technology to children, including smartphones, is probably the most urgent, pressing societal issue out there. I think it really is important for a whole variety of different reasons. There's pretty good evidence now on the short-term effects of too much use of smartphones and technology, particularly in the evenings, right? Focus, attention, distraction, what they are being exposed to when they go online, right? So I think we can all sort of understand those things and maybe parents have seen that with their own kids as well and thought, wow, it's very hard to talk to them when they've got a smartphone in their face, because that smartphone is more appealing to them than any other human being. And frankly, that's the same with adults, right? The amount of patients over the years who were having marital issues, and a lot of it came down to the smartphone being the third person in their marriage. These things are designed to be addictive. So I think we've just sort of ended up in a situation where 15 years ago or so, these things didn't exist, right? We didn't have to make

decisions as parents, should we be giving our child a smartphone or not? And in the space of those 15 years, society has changed rapidly. I think COVID accelerated this, where because of the lockdowns, because schools were closed, technology came into our schooling in a big way. And I think an inertia has set in, and we haven't really reset post-COVID, nor have we asked ourselves the question, like, what is actually good for our kids? I think many of us are feeling the pressure from the children around us, what other kids are doing. No one wants to feel as though their child has been left out, right? So there's the short-term issues. But for me, there are these kind of longer, bigger picture issues,

which I don't think we're talking about enough, which is, you know, what are they being exposed to, right? So I'll give an example. There's some good research showing us that about one in 10 nine-year-olds in this country have now seen pornography, okay? By the age of 11, that accelerates up to about 25 percent okay so one in four of 11 year olds we think in this country have now seen pornography but let's go one step further we also know from some research that if you are a first-time visitor to some of the world's most popular pornographic websites, one in eight of the videos that you are

served will show either violence or non-consexual sex. So I think most of us would think, I don't want my nine-year-old or my 11-year-old seeing stuff like this. But let's just fast forward that 10 years when these children become adults. What is their expectation of an intimate relationship? What is their idea of how they need to perform when they're in that sort of setting later on in life? So I think that's one issue which we're not talking about enough. But also, I don't know if you've looked at many children's schools bus stops recently like i when i drop my kids off at the bus stop kids are not talking to each other anymore right so at my

children's bus stop where they get on to go to high school i honestly don't think i've ever seen kids talk in the last three years like it's it's that rare, right? I saw yesterday morning, I commented, I was driving past the bus stop and they're all stood in line like this on their phones. Yeah, and we can't blame them, right? These devices are addictive. Their prefrontal cortex, the front part of their brain, which is how we as humans make rational, logical decisions,

that's not fully developed till the age of 25, right? We struggle as adults to manage our own relationship with these smartphones. And we've got fully developed brains, I think, most of the time, right? They haven't. But that bus stop thing is really important. Because when I was at school, I remember being at the high school bus stop. And there was a girls' school on there,, there was a boys school on there. If I had an option to hide myself away in my private world, I probably would have done it. But you know what? Because there's no option, you end up chatting. You end up chatting to girls, which you might find as a boy quite intimidating at that age. But you know what? You learn how to do it And we're missing those skills. And there was a fantastic

book in 2016 by this MIT professor called Sherry Turkle called Reclaiming Conversation. And one of the things I remember from that conversation is from that book is really quite startling, which is in her research, she's shown that a lot of kids these days, they prefer electronic communication to real life communication. Okay, why is that? Because in real life, like now we have to interact in real time. I may make a mistake, I may get something wrong, right? But they know on a text message, on a WhatsApp, you can edit it, you can get it absolutely perfect for 10 minutes, and then send it. And so we are at risk of creating a whole generation who don't have the basic communication

skills that we've always had as humans. So I'm really concerned, you said, what is the solution? I think solution is really, really tricky, because it's out there at the moment. But let's not forget, smoking used to be recommended by doctors. You could go into your doctor's surgery and the doctor would be smoking, right? That's now not acceptable. Things can change. Junk food was allowed in everywhere in the 80s. Now we're learning, look, there's some real problems with this. We've got to be a bit more careful with how much we introduce it. I am hopeful. I think parents, the amount of parents who've told me that they have lost their children to these devices, right? And a lot of them, and, you know,

without saying too much about the documentary that I'm filming with China for at the moment, which will probably come out later this year, because it's such an urgent issue. The parents I spoke to, like, I've lost my kids to technology. And all of them were like, I don't really want them on it, but I'm giving the smartphones to them because all their friends have got them and I don't want them to feel left out. So I kind of think the solution... That's the biggest problem. It's not as hard as we think, Wendy,

because actually if parents are recognising the problems, right, if they're only giving it to other kids, to their kids, because other kids have it, we could as a society take a step back and go, okay, is this what we really want? What is schools? Like, I don't think there's any case at all for secondary schools to allow smartphones being used in the day. I know that's controversial to some people. To me, it's not. People say the safety aspect. So me as as a parent I'm thinking it's actually quite handy being able to see that my 14 year olds got on the bus or got on the train or whatever it is but kids got to secondary school before smartphones existed right so it must be possible well also just turn them

off at the door that's our school has just introduced this thing where they turn them off. And if you're spotted on your phone, it gets confiscated. They've come really hard line on it. I think we need to go one step further, Wendy, actually, because the schools which and the school that my children go to, their policy, because Alison, you make a great point. Times have moved on. We do like to know that our kids have navigated the bus or the train or the walk to school and got there safely. But a lot of schools now are having to give... When you get to school at morning registration, you hand your phone in. So you don't have it in the day. It's not like off in your pocket or your bag. And frankly, a lot of schools where they do that people are still using it they're going to the toilet like there's actually toilet problems at schools now because people are spending so long in the toilet in the cubicle because they're texting they're going on tiktok they're going on snapchat so i think it's a simple policy is take them off them when they

come in and you give them back at the end of the day so they can use them to navigate their transport but whilst they're at school, they can't use them. And I honestly believe that will be the norm. Within a few years, I think there is a growing tide now of worry and anxiety, and there's more research coming out. So look, I could talk to you for three hours on this. But in essence, I think it's a big problem. But I think us as parents have got to come together and go, listen, that is another way here. I feel like if we don't come together and come up with some kind of joint solution, this is going to be the thing that our kids have therapy about. Like we think, you know, oh, we're doing parenting so much better than the generation before us. And we've got all sorted. No, this is the thing that our kids are going to be you know resentful in 20 30

years time can't believe you let me have a smartphone this is the impact it had on me oh so we're already getting it what were there's already 21 22 year olds coming out saying like i wished my parents had never allowed me to have this stuff i wish they stopped me from going on social media i have seen in my practice over the years, several suicidal adolescents, right? One of them ended up in A&E trying to harm themselves on a Saturday. I saw them on a Monday afternoon. And I promise you within months, I managed to help them have a completely different relationship with themselves and with life by cutting out social media and technology in the evenings, right? It is that

profound. And here's another point which we haven't mentioned, right? When you're 12, like, just imagine that. When we were 12, 13, 14, 15, right? We're trying to fit in. We're trying to figure out who we are, you know, what is our place in the world and in our social circle around us. Social media is fundamentally a performative medium, right? I'm not blaming people for performing on that. It's a performative medium. You don't post your dirty washing, right? You post the best aspects of your life. You know, why would you post your dirty washing? Who wants to see that? But if you're 13 and 14 and you're a bit insecure and you see all of these perfect lies around you your self-esteem your feeling of who you are like it is i don't think it takes there's a lot of research there but i think just on a human level we're like

god we as adults kind of struggle with that sometimes if we're not about to say we can't do it we struggle with it so of course the kids can't i don't think and i think these technology platforms are frankly pathetic with how they police this stuff i mean what you know it's complete nonsense i mean whatsapp's meant to be 13 well all the netball clubs around me they're all communicating on whatsapp groups at the age of 10 so everyone's clearly getting around that very, very easily. And I'm not saying WhatsApp is necessarily a problem in and of itself. I think it's more the Instagram, the TikTok, the Snapchat. But I think it's a big problem. But I'm very, very optimistic. And I think when this documentary comes out,

I believe from what I've seen so far, it's going to really ramp up the national conversation on this. Good, good. So let's move on to another big question. What do you think is the biggest, smartphones and technology aside, what do you think is the biggest unhelpful habit that most of us have today? I would say, and this might be a little controversial, but I would say it's going onto your smartphone as soon as you wake up. Now, let me explain why I picked that, because there's a few things that we're vying for attention, including alcohol before bed and what that can do, or too much alcohol, I should say, in the evening, which we can come to if you guys want to talk about that in a second. But I think the most important practice for our health, our happiness, our overall well-being is a daily practice of solitude. I'm very aware that I may be talking to a lot of busy mums who go, you're kidding me, like, when am I going to get any time to myself? My whole life is about

doing things for other people, for my children, maybe my partner and whatever, right? But I've seen it time and time again that we're living in a world where there is just a barrage of information coming in at us at all times. So many of our thoughts, our behaviors, our actions are downstream from the content we consume, right? I really have seen this and I really, really believe this. So just imagine two scenarios. Scenario one, you wake up and even for 10 or 15 minutes, you don't go on that device. You make a cup of tea, you weed a little bit, you have a little stretch, some of your favorite yoga moves, whatever it is that tickles your fancy. You do that without looking at your smartphone and then compare that.

So you're in bed. You're a bit knacker. The alarm's gone off. You switch it off on your smartphone. You go onto the news website and see all the horrific things that are going on around the world. You go onto social media and see someone's been a bit mean about your last post and you see a bit of bullying going on somewhere else. And your mindset has been massively influenced by the content you've consumed, right? So is it a surprise then that you're a bit short with your partner? You're a bit ratty with your kids. you don't feel good about yourself, it's not really a surprise because if you've just seen the worst

that humanity has at the moment on the news or on social media, in a very important part of the day, I believe you're playing catch up for the rest of the day to what you started your day with. And it's bloody hard, right? So if I bring my phone into my bedroom, I will look at it. I've written five books and I've written about phones and all the problems.

I'm a human being, right? These things are addictive. So when I'm being my best self, I leave my phone in my kitchen in the evening and I don't bring it into the bedroom. When I'm not being my best self, it comes into my bedroom and I struggle. So I think what you do first thing in the morning is really really important and I have had busy single mums in my practice before who I've convinced and persuaded to have a five minute morning routine and it has transformed so many aspects of their life I believe it's that important mornings that's the key right noted Lizelle came on the podcast and she said the same thing and she wanted us to go outside and stomp in the glass she said tongue scraping

um uh himalayan salt in water and yeah getting outside and feeling feeling the grass on the lawn hey listen i do that stuff right so, first of all, like I've been developing what I do first thing in the morning for about 10 years now. And it really mirrors when I, it really started when I had kids, because what I realized, well, my kids are 14 and 11 now. Okay, so I've been a dad for quite some time. I realized very, very early on that I'm a better human being in every single way when I've had time to myself first thing in the morning. I've realized that I'm a better father, I'm a better husband, I'm a better doctor, I'm a better colleague. And so I realized that that's very important for me. So I've gradually shifted over 10 years or so. I've reorientated my life in such a way that I do get up early and I do spend quite a bit of time by myself each morning. I appreciate not everyone can do that.

And there may be differences between men and women and then who's responsible for what at home. I recognise all those things. That works for me. But I think even if you're a busy mum who thinks that you don't have time, I mean, I can tell you, like, I have this framework for morning routines, right, for people who are interested. And I call it the three M's, okay? So I think if you're trying to create a little routine, it doesn't have to be the morning. If you're trying to create a routine that you do each day for yourself, I think think about the first M, mindfulness, the second M, movement, and the third M, mindset.

You don't have to do them all, but it's just quite a nice balanced way of looking at it. So I do my mindfulness. First thing I get up and I get up at five. OK, but I go to bed early as well. I come down in my pajamas into the living room and I will meditate for about 10 minutes. Then I come into my kitchen in my pajamas and I make coffee. And while the coffee brews for five minutes, which is how I like it, I don't go on Instagram or email. I do a little strength workout in my pajamas, right? So I'm not having to create extra time. Those five minutes are going to happen anyway with me waiting for the coffee. So I use that time to have a little workout and then my coffee's ready just the way I like it and I'll

write in my journal or I'll read some, you know, I've got a few books kicking around and I'll read some uplifting pages from a book. So I've done some mindfulness, some movement, worked on my mindset. And then I start my day and the day is 20 minutes. It's not long. You could do it. You could, I tell you, you say it's 20 minutes, right? I had this patient about seven or eight years ago. Okay. Single mom. I think she had two kids. She had really bad skin. I think it was eczema from recollection. But what was very clear to me is that there was a huge underlying stress load in her life. And it was quite clear to me that the underlying stress was a significant contributor to her skin problems. I'm not saying the cause necessarily, but it's

significant contributor. And she was rushing around. She had to get the kids ready in the morning. I said, would you consider a morning routine? She goes, oh, Dr. Chelsea, I don't have time for that. I said, okay, okay, okay. And I spent a bit of time with her. I said, what about five minutes? She goes, do you think it'll make a difference? I said, look, I don't know, but why don't we give it a try? And we created a five-minute routine with those three N's, right? So the first minute was a breathing practice that I call the three, four, five practice where you breathe in for three, you hold for four and you breathe out for five. Okay. Very simple, helps lower stress, helps you relax. I've been teaching this to my patients, to adolescents, to stressed out

executives, to busy moms for years. It works very, very been teaching this to my patients, to adolescents, to stressed out executives, to busy moms for years. It works very, very quickly. So she did one minute of three, four, five breathing. I said, what kind of movements do you like? She said, well, I used to love yoga. I haven't done it in years. I said, okay, do you have some favorite moves?

She said, yes. I said, okay, two minutes of yoga, right? That's it, like literally two minutes. And then for the final L M, it was mindset. And for her, she wrote down some positive affirmations. So, you know, I'm calm. I'm a capable mother. I can cope with what life has to throw at me these days. You know, you can call this stuff cheesy if you want. It absolutely works. I felt it myself. There's good science on affirmations and I've seen it with patients. She started doing that for five minutes every day.

Within two weeks, her skin problems, her skin flares had gone down by over 50%. Wow. Right? Because stress is such an underlying driver. But more importantly than that, is that that created a positive ripple effect in her life. This is the big problem about change that we think about. We think change has got to be this big life overhaul. I've got to spin four times a week, run a marathon, do the park run. All or nothing.

All or nothing. I used to fall into that trap, but it just simply doesn't work for most people. I'll tell you who it does work for. If you have gone through a significant life experience, a divorce, a bereavement, you've lost a job. Yeah. If those things have happened, I have seen people turn their lives around overnight. But if that hasn't happened to you, and that's not your underlying drive behind you wanting to change, it's very hard to do those big lifestyle overhauls. So that five minutes in the morning showed her what calm and control could feel like.

Then she started off her own accord walking for 15 minutes every lunchtime. Right. And there was a whole series of other positive habits that came off the back of it, but it started with those five minutes. So I am really, really passionate that these small things done consistently really make a difference. And again, I know I'm talking to a lot of busy mums and parents who may feel that they don't have time. My challenge to everyone listening, if you want to make a change in your life, right, it's this. Pick one small thing, five minutes max, that you think is going to help you, journaling, meditation, yoga, jumping jacks, whatever you like doing, and commit for seven days to do that five minutes every day, I guarantee you are going to feel differently

about yourself, about your life after seven days. Because when you say you're going to do something and you do it, you send yourself a strong signal that, you know what, I can trust myself. I can rely on myself. Like even if the kids have got all these clubs I need to go to, even if work's busy, life is stressful, I still found five minutes a day for me. That is priceless. And that's what I do in my own life as well. So I'm going to take you away a second to your tour and talk about your upcoming tour. Are you going to be interviewing people on stage? Is it going to be like this? Are we going to get all of your expertise coming out on stage? It's quite different to podcasting. So who can we expect to see and what are you going to be doing? Okay, so first of all, there's not going to be any guests at all.

Okay, so it's not. Oh, yeah, I'm trying to create something that I don't think has been done before in the UK. I'm trying to create a really transformative, immersive experience of people where they come in with their friends, with their partner, they come in feeling one way, and two hours later they leave feeling completely different and hopefully inspired to go, yeah, you know what, I can do this actually. Yeah, life is tough, but I know now what I need to do to improve my health, my happiness, my relationships. So, you know, I know there's a lot to do to improve my health, my happiness, my relationships. So, you know, I know there's a lot of live podcast tours out there where people bring on guests and stuff,

and that was an option for me, and I did consider it. But it's not what I want to do, actually. Look, my podcast is my podcast. We spend a lot of time and effort and energy on it. It goes out, people listen to it. You know, that's great. This is going to be very different. You know, I'm working with an amazing theatre director, there's going to be music, lights,

audio visuals. And yes, there's going to be a lot of my advice, tips, hopefully inspiration. But the real goal is going to be in a very soft and kind and compassionate way. I want everyone in each of these theatres to go away thinking, you know what? Yeah, I can do this. I can be the architect of my health and happiness. And I really believe that's something that, I mean, how do you say this? I think we all have to tune in to actually what is our gift? What is the thing that we can do for people that is uniquely us? And I feel one thing that I can offer people that people have been saying to me since I've been in public for maybe 10 or 12 years now is that, you know, they often say wrong and you make me feel as though I can do this. You make things really simple. So even though I'm busy, I feel, yeah, I can actually do that. And I want to put that together in a theatre show.

And so we're being quite ambitious. You know, we're going to take people on a journey, but some of the tips I mentioned and plenty more will be there throughout, but it's not just like health. It's also happiness, it's going to also be relationships, you know, how do you deal with conflict? How do you become a better listener? You know, why is it we struggle to make the changes that we say we want every January,

and by the end of January, we're back to where we started. So my sixth book comes out in January, it's called Make Change That Lasts. And I feel there's going to be content from all of my books weaved together in a narrative. And I'm really, really excited. I love being on stage. I love seeing people in person. It is a big tour, right? I was quite nervous when we booked it. You know, they're big theatres and there's 15 dates.

But, you know, if it is even 50% of what I think it's getting me in my head I think people are going to find it really really valuable and they're going to have a good time at the same time I think it sounds amazing like I said I'm going to be front row and even though you haven't got guests I'm still going to come but you have had so many amazing conversations on your podcast like so many wise clever people imparting you know their wisdom um what which one conversation has had the biggest impact on you like which one did you come away from thinking right this is interesting we keep making him choose one i know i feel like otherwise otherwise we'll be here all day i mean i feel like i'm

warming up and now i've got to choose one conversation. Okay, so we're coming up this, I think at the start of December will be the 500th episode of the podcast. So, which is pretty nuts to think of how it started almost seven years ago. And yeah, I feel very, very lucky I get to do this and basically talk to whoever I want each week

about whatever I want, which I feel I'm very, very grateful for. But there've been quite a lot that have really fundamentally shifted how I look at life. But the one I think more than any other, which has changed me, like literally changed me, is a conversation I had about three years ago with a lady called Edith Eger. Now, when I spoke to Edith, she was 93 years old. But rather incredibly, when she was 16 years old, she was growing up in Hungary, and her family got a knock on the door and essentially they were put on a train and taken to Auschwitz concentration camp. So she spent 12 or 13 months in a concentration camp in the most hellish condition, seeing people dying. Her parents literally were murdered within an hour of

getting there. The most incredible story, and you think about, God, my son's 14. I'm thinking, what? Two years' time, he'd be 16 when Edith went into Auschwitz. It was phenomenal. But why did it change me? I'll tell you why it changed me. So on the day she gets there, her parents are told by Dr. Mengele, who's known as the Angel of Death, to go left, and they go into the camp where they're basically burnt. OK, she goes with her sister into another part because they're younger and they can now work and be of use to the camp, basically. She got asked to dance for the senior prison guard, the guy who sent his mum to the gas chamber. She had to dance for a few hours later.

And she said, when I was dancing, Rangan, I wasn't in Auschwitz. I was in Budapest Opera House. I had a beautiful dress on. The orchestra was playing. There was a full house. So she said to me, Rangan, before my mum left, the last thing she said to me was, Edith, just remember, nobody can ever take from you the concepts that you put inside your mind. OK, so when she's dancing, she goes somewhere else in her mind. Then she tells me after a few weeks, she starts to see the prison guards as the prisoners. She goes, they're not free. I'm free in my mind. These guys are not living true to themselves. They're doing these horrible, you know, awful things that they'll have to live with for the rest of their life. And I'm free, they're not free. And then the final

thing she said to me, I'm trying to summarise a two-hour conversation here, right? But at the end of it, she said, Rangan, I have lived in Auschwitz and I can tell you this, the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind. And I'm not kidding you, right? I remember when that conversation ended, like it was in the evening and my kids were waiting for me to go and put them to bed. I couldn't do it. Like I was so moved. I literally have changed from that conversation. And I honestly believe that's one of the reasons I feel so happy these days is because I realize that everything in life comes down to the story we tell ourselves about it. And we have the power to create those stories. So if I'm ever, you know, let's say someone cuts you up when you're on your way to school to pick your kids up and you're like, oh, stupid driver, they shouldn't

have a license or whatever it might be, right? You've created emotional stress there. You think it was that external event that did that, but it wasn't because not everyone will have that same reaction. You've created that with your response. And what Edith taught me and which I've applied every day since that conversation is whenever I get triggered, whenever something happens in life that I don't like,

and sometimes I can't do it in the moment, sometimes I don't make the best choice in the moment and I reflect on it that evening. But I go, what's a different story you could put on this? Oh, you know, that driver. Maybe that driver thinks they're going to get fired and they're rushing to their job. Maybe that driver's daughter was up last night

with earache and they're knackered. Like the truth actually doesn't matter. What matters is the story you tell yourself about it. That's freedom that's empowerment there's many more things I could share about that but that was the conversation if I could only save one conversation from my entire back catalogue that would be the one she stayed with you yeah for sure so we all listen to you we all listen to your advice and to your words of wisdom on the podcast but your kids listen to you. We all listen to your advice and to your words of wisdom on the podcast,

but do your kids listen to you? So this is a great question. Okay. I often think about what will happen to the kids when they're in their 20s because they, you know, I talk about all this stuff with them all the time and have been doing so since they were really little. You know, when a podcast guest is coming to the house like the next day or that morning while we're all having breakfast I'm like you know they're like daddy who's coming I'm like oh this guy's coming today oh what you're going to talk about so one of these things what do you think

they'll give me ideas my daughter will say oh why don't you ask him this daddy I'm like that's a really good idea darling I think I'm going to ask that's a really good idea, darling. I think I'm going to ask. That's a really good question. And so, you know, do they listen? Look, they're like all kids. They like to do what they like to do, right? If they're out with their friends at a party, you know, they'll want to go to Pizza Express or wherever people are going to have that food. But by and large, I'd say yes. But also, and I think this is the also the really uncomfortable truth, I think, as parents is that, look, this is what I've learned in 14 and a half years of being a dad now, is that kids don't do what you tell them to do, they do what they see you doing. And so I realised, because for my wife and I,

how we parent our children is the most important thing to us. Over everything else, it's like, how are we bringing up our children in this world? Are we bringing them up to be kind, respectful, compassionate? And I've learned that actually, I have to model the behaviors that I want them to pick up. If going back to full circle to smartphones, if I don't want them on technology all the time, well, I also can't be on technology all the time, right?

And again, I don't say that to blame anyone. I know life is tough. People live stressful lives. They might have to get back to humans. I get all that. So I'm not saying it with judgment. But I think my kids do follow the advice. We eat very, very well at home. You know, it's a struggle at weekends to get them out for walks. You know, we're like everyone else, come on guys, we need to go out. We've, oh, I don't want to see what's raining. Yeah, we have all those struggles like anyone else does. But we do prioritise health

in my family, which is unsurprising given it's my whole career and what I talk about and write about but I do wonder sometimes when they're in their 20s you know we all go through a stage where we rebel against our parents you know what must it be like for them being my children like when I talk about wellness and health and happiness all the time oh god dad's talking about gut health again. Exactly exactly so I don't know I think like all parents I'm doing the best that I can and I hope that these lessons stay with them when they're old enough to make those decisions for themselves but you know I guess only time will tell. Yeah now when you had Philippa Perry on your podcast who is one of my absolute all-time favorites um you both agreed

that the best parenting tip was sort yourself out first do you think that as parents we all need some kind of therapy just to I guess make us the best parents that we can be I don't necessarily think we all need some kind of therapy but I definitely you know that conversation with Philippa I'm guessing was at least five years ago so i can barely remember i might go listen to it this weekend now i can't remember what was in it but i do i do still maintain that the best parenting advice is like sort yourself out first and then you're going to be it's like put your own life mask on put your own mask on on the plane. I think the people closest to us often see the worst of us. You know, they're the ones who trigger us or our unresolved issues,

usually from childhood, often come out with our partner or our children. So I do think that's a question. Now the question is, do we all need a therapist? Look, I'm all about empowering individuals. I think therapy can be incredibly beneficial for many people, most people, perhaps all of us. But at the same time, not all of us have access, not all of us have time, not all of us, if we don't have access to the NHS, not all of us can afford it. And I do believe there's a lot we can do ourselves, right? Going back to what I said before about a practice of solitude, why solitude is so important. And that could be a walk,

meditation, breathwork, journal, whatever, sometime by yourself, where you're not consuming stuff from the outside. Because if you're never reflecting on your life, if you're always in your life, you can never really make those significant changes. Like if you, for example, were a bit short with your children, like, you know, all of us probably are at some point. And, you know, if you have that practice of solitude, you go, yeah, you know what, the reason I reacted like that is because I was stressed from work. It's not my child's fault. That was my stress that came out there. And if you get that self-awareness, it does two things. Firstly, next time you're in that situation, you're going to create a little space where you go, oh, wait a minute, I don't need to react like that this time. You might still do sometimes, but you start to create that self-awareness,

which I think is really important. And secondly, you can actually go and apologize to your children. You know, it's one thing I give my wife credit for this. She really taught me that, you know, let's not put that image of perfection to our children. If we get something wrong, let's go and talk to them and tell them. And so I have in the past said, hey, guys, you know, I'm really sorry about yesterday. You know, this is what happened. I shouldn't have done that. I'm really, really sorry.

I'll try not to next time. And I think it's quite a nice thing. You know, I very much grew up with perfectionist tendencies. Like I thought I had to be perfect in everything that I do. And I think, yeah, wrong, that's fine. It's had a toxic effect on you and your inner well-being for much of your life. Don't pass it on to your kids. So, you know, I've tried to sort that stuff out. And another key thing for kids, sorry, for parents, which relates to parenting advice is, I think this is so important. If you have a negative inner voice, which many of us do, and it pops out sometimes like, oh, silly me, or I can't believe you did that. You can't do anything. Here's the problem. If you say that in front of your children regularly,

what inner voice do you think they're going to pick up? They very much absorb what we do. So I think in some ways, having kids is the best incentive to actually sort your own stuff out. It's like, no, I don't want to pass this stuff onto my children. And so for me, that's definitely been the case. It's been like, no, you've got to sort this stuff out because these are two malleable minds who will literally absorb everything that they see you and mummy do. So I do still maintain that,

kind of sort your own stuff out. So I think it's really important. You don't need therapy. If you can get therapy, great, but don't let your lack of a therapist be an obstacle to you sorting your stuff out. You can journal. You can reflect. You can listen to podcasts. I very purposely do a long-form podcast. People in the industry told me, no one's got time anymore. They've got to be 40 minutes, got to be 45 minutes. It's just simply not true, right? You can have great

podcasts in 40 minutes for sure. But if something's good enough and it's meaningful enough, people do listen to long episodes. And since I went to an hour and a half, sometimes two hours, my show has got more and more popular because they're really deep, authentic conversations. And what I found from speaking to so many listeners around the country is that through conversations, yeah, we can do it with our friends. But if they're hearing me talk to a guest and having a really deep, intimate conversation, they start to see themselves in that conversation. And they start to reflect, you know what I do that in

some ways it's really nice because you're not directly being spoken to so you don't feel threatened you're just like oh yeah you know what wrong is I think I do that in my own life as well and it it really has the power to create change so therapy great if you can but if you can't there are still many other ways that you can make progress and that idea of perfectionism is really interesting and you've previously said that parenting is your biggest job of all in life and it's one that you take very seriously and it's clear that you do um but it feels like parenting has reached another level in the modern world so much admin with old school apps so much awareness of what we're feeding them mental health checks I mean a lot of it is good and we should be doing it but it makes the job so much harder

to get right and we're so much more aware now of all the things that we're potentially doing wrong um what what do you think how do you parent in a way where you're not seeking that perfection, but you're trying to do the best job you can? Yeah, I agree. You know, I think this goes beyond parenting. I think this is, like I was mentioning before, the world of information overloads where we are more empowered than ever before. But we feel more pressured than ever before. That can be health or it can be parenting. And I think we have to tune out the noise sometimes. And actually, we've all got unique lives. We've all got unique pressures. Some of us are in single parent families. Some of us are two parents. Some of us

are, we co-parent with people we're no longer together with. We've got to find what works for us. You cannot do everything. I do think having some time each week where you're, you know, you're not scheduling yourself and scheduling your kids with loads of different things is really important. Connecting this to smartphones at the start, right? One of the other things I think is an issue with giving children smartphones early is let's think about the state of well-being in adults in the UK and frankly, many Western countries. There is one bit of research that was published last year

that shows that 88% of UK adults have experienced some degree of burnout in the past two years. Now that's a staggering statistic. And I don't know what it really says about the state of us as a society when that many adults are experiencing burnout. So one of the issues in burnout, yes, there can be work left from your boss, which is unmanageable for sure. But one of the issues is we struggle to switch off and just be. We're trained to always have to do something

you know even for our relaxation on sunday we have to do it's do do do do do and i kind of feel that smartphones in some ways are also training that from a young age it's like i need to constantly consume and then when i'm bored of this one i go that one. I go from that one to that one. And then I go back to WhatsApp and then I go here. And you're really going to struggle to be well in any aspects of your life unless you can actually just sit and do nothing. You know, remember the Sundays when we grew up, the shops were closed, right? You couldn't buy stuff. You know, supermarkets were often shut or just open for like half the day. And it was inbuilt that you had, yeah, you had a busy week, but you would have downtime at the weekend or at least on a Sunday. Many religions have this built in, right?

Like the Jewish Sabbath, like where Friday evening to Saturday evening, nothing, no cooking, nothing, right? So I kind of feel, and back to your question, Alison, how do we manage it? Well, listen, you can't do everything, right? So I kind of feel, and back to your question, Alison, how do we manage it? Well, listen, you can't do everything, right? You're never going to get every single right. Take the pressure off yourself. And I do think if you can have that one day or that one afternoon with your kids, where you just, you put the tech away, you're either out in nature for a walk, or you're sitting around playing a board game, you will get so much from that, the connection, the bonding, the switch off that will help everyone. Whether you're ticking all the boxes off or not, that I think is one of those key practices each week that kids benefit from, but we also do as adults as well.

It's a common theme here, isn't there? We keep coming back to tech and phones. This is it. It is. And I just don't think we have to accept the norm. Just because it's normal, it doesn't mean we have to keep it there. I know for many years now, my mates who've got kids older than me would say that the number one source of conflict in our house is to do with the kids use of technology right but you've got to understand or I believe we have to understand that we cannot blame the kids it's not their fault they can't regulate their own behavior

on these devices we as adults can't so I do think we have to make some really big decisions as a society and go, what is it we really want for our kids? Do we want them all seeing pornography and hardcore pornography at the age of 11? I mean, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what kind of impact that could have downstream or 10 or 15 years for harmony, relationships and all kinds of stuff, right? And I think we can stop it. I think schools can make big but tough decisions and say, yeah, bring them on the bus, bring them there. But when you get in, there's no phones during school time and then we'll give them back. So you can do whatever you want with your kids as they're coming home. I think that personally is a very, very

reasonable suggestion. There's an account on instagram called smartphone free childhood which is blowing up and i love it it's run by this this mum called daisy and she recently launched something called parent pats where parents in different school i think all the schools are on there people are coming together and committing saying no we're not going to do this and there's that we know we're not going to give our kids smartphones at 11 or 12 we're going to wait until this age and that's what we need it's not an individual issue this we need a collective movement her campaign is so good isn't it we interviewed her on netmums and i chatted to her a few months back when she first launched it when the whatsapp groups were just blowing up out of nowhere um yeah it feels like we need that that person to have the

idea that we can all then jump on and develop so i do i i just i really believe like it's in the press every day at the moment you know there's more and more research coming out you know well the australian prime minister is um talking about making it illegal for children to have smartphones under 16 in South Australia yeah and that's the kind of level it's got to it is the conversations are happening I think but we've just not got over the line yet I think it's a generation of kids um maybe my kids are in that age bracket but but I think older, maybe five, 10 years older than my kids, who have been the guinea pigs, really, unfortunately, like they've been through it. And obviously, we can't turn the clock back and change what has happened. But we can make a

change for future generations. Like I've got mates who've got kids who are like two or three or four years old, and they're like hey rongan i'm so glad that this is happening now so that by the time my son or daughter is 10 11 12 hopefully the societal norms will have shifted but i as i said right at the start i believe this to be the most urgent societal issue of our time i i feel we're fundamentally changing the nature of childhoods and how human beings interact with each other and I don't think it's too late to change it well I personally feel like a completely new version of myself thank you very much I do too I genuinely do right not being funny but I'm gonna go off here and I'm gonna come up with

my new morning routine I'm gonna do is it the three m's you said wrong again yeah but even but again if three m's is too much just do one m it still works i'm gonna try the three i'm gonna do my five minutes i'm gonna honestly i'm not even i'm not even kidding i feel like i'm gonna be a new person i feel like this is one of the most useful podcasts we've ever done thank you yes thank you so much well listen it was a joy chatting to you both and i hope some of the information is useful for people and uh you know if anyone's interested hopefully the tour next year will be a lot of fun so you know come with your partner come with your friends and it should be entertaining there'll be these two shadows at the front yeah we'll be there hi oh do do do and then and we'll get you up on stage if you want to do something.

No, no, okay, we won't, we won't. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thanks for having me, guys. Thank you. Don't forget, you can get in touch with us on all social channels, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just type in Netmoms and you'll find us. And if you liked what you've heard today,

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