The Netmums Podcast - S14 Ep7: Alastair Campbell - Parenting, Politics, and the Power of Youth

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

In this lively episode of The Netmums Podcast, hosts Wendy Golledge and Alison Perry welcome the versatile Alastair Campbell, renowned for his significant contributions to politics and media, and now an author seeking to motivate the younger generation. Alastair offers his insights on balancing parenting with a demanding career, the importance of being present, and how his unique career journey has shaped his children's upbringing. Alastair introduces his latest book, "Alastair Campbell Talks Politics," which aims to equip young people with the knowledge and confidence to engage in politics. He highlights the importance of understanding the political landscape, the impact of misinformation, and the necessity for critical thinking. The discussion also covers the challenges of navigating social media influences, the government's role in regulating online spaces, and the importance of young people being involved in shaping their future. The episode delves into the art of disagreeing agreeably, a key theme of Alastair’s podcast with Rory Stewart, and the importance of fostering respectful dialogue. As the conversation progresses, Alastair shares his aspirations for the new Labour government, particularly regarding mental health reforms and the modernisation of education. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Netmums socials: @netmums / Facebook / TikTok / X  Series 14 of the Netmums Podcast is produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the Netmums podcast with me, Wendy Gollich. And me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show... I've got no idea how hard it is to get kids to understand why it is always right to tell the truth. When they look on their televisions and the people who are telling them how to live their lives and how to wear a mask and lockdown and all that stuff are proven liars like Johnson and Trump. But before all of that... Welcome back, everyone, to another episode. Now, we are fast approaching Halloween and it has brought up a bit of an issue in my house.

And Wendy, I want to know if you are having a similar kind of thing happening and what your views are. Basically, my 14 year old she's just turned 14 she wants to go trick-or-treating with a friend of hers in our local area and I have said to her it's a hard no no it's oh I'm so glad you agree because I'm starting to question myself because I just feel like I don't I'm not really sure that it's safe for her to be wandering around in the dark with a friend of hers.

But also if some granny opens the door and she's got two teenagers on her doorstep, I feel like that's potentially not okay. Like she might feel intimidated. What do you think? I'm kind of like the Grinch of Halloween. I don't really do Halloween I think it's American and a bit shit and I'm not really sure my little kid really likes it and we go and

it's fun but I think for older kids no just shouldn't be doing I'm quite militant about it I don't like it at all as a Scott who grew up guising it definitely isn't american yeah yeah yeah that's what we used to call it back in scotland um and we used to turn up and do a turn we would like to say a poem or do a song and our reward was the sweets it was a whole thing so you know i think i think i think the americans stole it from the scots most, most things we invented. Well, I would like to know, can you imagine if our guest had taken himself trick-or-treating in the 90s? That would have been a shock for some people. So let's introduce him and see if he's a fan. Well, we're joined today by someone who has been a key player in politics and the media for the last few decades, from being a

journalist to being Tony Blair's right-hand man in the 90s and noughties. Alistair Campbell now hosts two hugely popular podcasts with Rory Stewart. The rest is politics and leading. It's fair to say he knows a thing or two about the British political system. And he's now written a book for young people, Alistair Campbell Talks Politics, where he shares his knowledge and passion for politics, hoping to empower young people and give them the skills and confidence that they need to understand how the country is run and how they can get involved. Alistair, welcome to the Netmums podcast. Thank you very much for having me. And I'm with Wendy on Halloween absolutely absolutely 100% and you know the

answer the whole thing about I just go out because otherwise you just sit there with the doorbell going endlessly and people sort of looking down on you the quality of the sweets that you're giving out I don't do sweet sweets sweets are bad as well so no no way thank you for having me bug you're very welcome so let's kick off with an easy question your kids are all grown up now but when they were small what kind of dad were you and are you different now that they're in their 30s to when they were smaller oh you should probably get them one that's them um i think what i'd say is is that i tried my best i always tried my best um but it was pretty difficult given that if i take grace but the youngest of our three who's now 30 she was a baby literally like a few weeks when i first

moved from journalism into working for the Labour Party. And so she's literally known nothing else. The other two did know something else, which was, so like my oldest son, for example, I was the political editor of the Sunday Mirror when he was born. Now, I don't know if you know much about Sunday newspapers, but it wasn't the hardest job I've ever had. So, you know, Sunday I was off, Monday I was off,

Tuesday I was probably off. And I could, you know, I could work from home quite a lot as well. By the time, and then I was on the Daily Mirror when Callum was born, I was working for Tony when Grace was born. So I think just this sort of progression. But I always tried to be there for them um and i think i think when you say about what's the difference when you get older i think it i think it's i think it obviously depends on your relationship with them and what they end up doing

but i'd say i'd say that the challenges are you know there's there are always big challenges it's just that they change the the so yeah we'll put it this way we're pretty we're pretty we're still pretty hands-on parents i'd say and did you manage to have some kind of semblance of normality when they were little like were you able to you know make it to you know the school plays or go trick-or-treating with them when it came to halloween um the the latter thankfully tessa jowell who was a member of our of tony blair's cabinet she loved going trick-or-treating she loved it so she would she was basically a surrogate parent to grace when that was happening and she would literally and and i always got the feeling that once grace started to sort of grow out of it tessa still wanted to do it so um but no i would not be doing that but

everything else yeah i mean i would definitely always try to be at parents evening school play christmas stuff um and also to do stuff with them um both of my sons are pretty obsessed with football and i think one of the reasons is that I always made an effort with them to, when they were playing, when they wanted to go to games and stuff like that. But I think the truth is, I think we're kidding ourselves if we can, you know, if we think that you can be the perfect parent when you're doing the sort of job that I was doing and having the sort of life that I was living. I think we can finish that sentence at the end.

I was going to say that I think we're kidding ourselves if we think yeah no I think that's true but I think I think that what you often what you often hear people saying is oh well you know it's a question you know making time and the quality of the time so for example the quality time thing, you know, I can remember times when, and Fiona, my partner, she would spot it and she'd say, look, you're here, but you're not here. And I was very conscious of that, that sometimes you'd sort of think you were doing the family a great favor by finally getting home at an ungodly hour or finally having a weekend when you were at home but then your head wasn't there um and I think it's I think that's the hardest part is when you're you sort of you're trying and you kid yourself that you're trying your hardest but frankly it's not good enough and did the kind of circles that you were mixing in

have an impact on the kids growing up? You know, were Tony and Cherry coming round for tea or was it all very separate? Well, I think if you go and think you couldn't pretend it was a totally normal childhood I don't think for them but you know so what we tried to do was to make it as normal as possible but at the same time yeah

they would meet people like I mean Grace does a whole sketch about how she met she's one of the few people in the world who's met Vladimir Putin's kids so you know it's like it's like you know you can't pretend that's normal but i like the fact that she's gone off and sort of now uses all that sort of stuff for her for her comedy um but at the same time i think i think that you know most as you as you were saying earlier, Wendy, most people's lives are struggles of different sorts. And it was just you were conscious of it being different.

And I think the other thing that happened when my three children all had very different relationships, if you like, with the fact of being with me when I'm out and about and you have all sorts of interaction with the public. I bet. And with the media, you know. It's like I can remember once when Grace would have been quite small, you know, so she was, I think, still at primary school. And I was taking her out for a walk and then this film crew was following me down the street and I said what are you doing you know you can't film her and he said oh don't worry

I'm only filming from your waist up and I said well how the fuck is she supposed to know that um yeah so although of course you know now Grace sort of will say oh she loves all the attention all the rest of it so but the point is that you're trying to you're trying to be normal but it's not always it's not always straightforward yeah um so what inspired you then to write alistair campbell talks politics why is it important to you to encourage young people to have that interest and inspire them to get involved? I mean, the idea for this one actually wasn't my own idea. I've written 21 books now. Most of them have been my idea.

But what happened is I wrote a book aimed much more at an adult market called But What Can I Do? Why politics has gone so wrong and what we can do to fix it, what you, the reader, can do to fix it. And another publisher came along afterwards and said, look look you should do a version of this for kids um which was so blindingly obvious that i said yeah you're absolutely right so i've done two i've done the one that you've talked about and i've also done one for primary schools why politics matters and you know the answer to your question is i think we're in a real mess i think our politics is in a real mess i think the country's in a bit of a mess i'm very very glad that we've got a change mess. I think the country's in a bit of a mess. I'm very, very glad that we've got a change of government, but I think it's going to take much more than a change of government to turn it all around. And I worry about the extent to which people are literally turning away from politics. And what happens if that happens in sufficient

scale, then what do you end up with? You end up with people like Boris Johnson being prime minister. You end up with people like Donald Trump being president. You end up with Brexit, with the day after the vote, the most Googled question in the UK was, what is the European Union? The day after the country has just voted to leave it. So we're talking about levels of debate. I think the media has had a lot to do with this. I think we were very dumbed down media.

I think we don't have a very serious debate about policy and about politics. It's one of the reasons why I do the podcast with Roy Stewart, is just to try to explain how complicated politics has been at a time when a lot of the politicians want to tell you how simple it is you know just stop the boats just put them on a plane to Rwanda just you know just do this just do that it's going to be so easy just come out of the European Union all your problems are going to be over make America great again all this kind of populist stuff. So basically, what the book tries to do is to explain what politics is, how things like parliament and government work in very, very, very simple terms. And then particularly for

the teenagers book, Alastair Campbell Talks Politics, for that one, to explain how you can make a difference, how you can get involved and you can make a difference. And, you know, there's lots of motivations why anybody would write a book and think that anybody might be interested enough to read it. But I guess it is sort of old-fashioned. Somebody actually phoned me the other day and said, this is the kind of stuff trade unions used to do, you know, where the trade union would sort of try to educate the public

about the state of the world um so it's kind of just like trying to say to kids um politics isn't all bad i understand why you might think it is given your recent experience of politics but it's not all bad you can get involved you can make change and i i always say this when i go into schools i say look there's it's entirely possible. It goes down especially when you're in private schools. It's entirely possible that one of you people sitting on that carpet now will end up as prime minister. Because in 30, 40, 50, 60 years time, there has to be a prime minister.

And you're then going to be in your 40s, 50s, 60s. Why shouldn't it be you and once you explain that what that means how did it how does it happen how does somebody become the prime minister uh what does a cabinet minister do why what does an mp do how does an mp get elected these really simple questions and you know i find when I go into schools that once you're once you're through the kind of what preconceptions they might have and it's always best if they have none at all you can actually explain this is interesting it's exciting it can be fun um so that's what I'm trying to do just get them interested engaged you've interviewed some pretty significant world leaders is it scarier standing in front of a bunch of primary school

kids than it is interviewing the world leaders well I've never I've never maybe this comes from my journalistic background I've never felt very very nervous just because another person is there um so i would argue it can be yeah because you definitely get you definitely get better questions i think from kids absolutely and the other day i went into the the primary school around the corner where our three kids went to um they when the the books came out they asked me if i would go and do an event there and i did and i went in and so what they'd done is i'd sent them some books in advance and they gave them out to the different classes who were going to attend or what have you and then they went away and had discussions and so and one of the kids he can't have been more than seven or eight but he had

gone away and researched defense spending like off his own back and he was and he started asking me about why we had allowed our defenses to run so low so that if and he actually said this if putin invaded the uk we would only have a couple of weeks of ammunition um and he got his now and i just thought that was fascinating because what it meant was he'd, maybe he'd thought about it before, but essentially what happened is that the teacher had said, this guy's coming in, he's written this book, he's going to talk about this. And he'd gone away and done his own research.

And so you do get, you get some amazing exchanges with kids. And so I think that part of the other, one of the other reasons is that I think there is so much cynicism around the place. And I'm trying to get to them before their parents make them cynical, the media makes them cynical, politics itself makes them cynical. And the other thing that's happening, we think of young people as all being kind of, you know, right on. And, you know, they all care about the future of the planet. And they're all, you know, woke and all this nonsense that gets said about young people but the fact is that if you look at for example um what's happened in in germany recently with the rise of the far right it's not

just it's not just old people who are being attracted to authoritarianism is young people as well um one of the biggest drivers of the um the success of somebody like nigel farage as a politician is that he's been very very effective embracing stuff like tiktok better than the more mainstream politicians do and you'll find or or you know take another example something like andrew. It's very rare that you go into a school these days where a teacher doesn't bring up the issue of Andrew Tate. Because Andrew Tate, who's, you know, kind of vile misogynist, spreads all this sort of stuff about, you know, basically, yeah, it's outright misogyny for the most part. But a lot of young boys are really kind of into it and they're into it. And they're invested in it. Absolutely. boys are really kind of into it and they're into it and they're invested in absolutely and and and

it's a and they're invested in the investment that is leading to people like tate and these right-wing influencers you know making quite a lot of money out of what they do and and that i think is you know it's just a way it's trying to make people alert to that's the stuff that's going on and trying to say to the politicians, whether you like it or not, you've got to be in that space because you've got to be enthusing and interesting and make young people feel that these politicians have got something to do with me. I mean, that's really interesting that you brought that up

because I'm really interested to know how we, do we know that young people are getting so much of their news and views from TikTok, even if it's not extreme stuff like Andrew Tate? My teenager came home a few months ago and said, Rishi Sunak is sending us all to war. Have you heard? Where do you hear that? TikTok.

What can we as parents be doing, in your view, to encourage our kids to be thinking about you know media literacy about checking your sources about thinking who is this information coming from and what might their agenda be you know without them just switching off and saying yawn whatever yeah or worse than that without them ending up thinking that there's actually no point believing anything. And if you think about where we are in world politics right now, so, you know, recently with the TV debate between Trump and Kamala Harris, and there was this amazing piece on CNN the day after, where this guy who does their fact checking, he just went through really

rapidly, he went through all the lies that Donald Trump had told, and just rebutted them one by one, I think it was, I think there were 33, he did them in about a minute. And, and I think he said that Kamala had made one statement, which he said was false, Trump had made 33. And when you have that, I, again, to go back into some of the conversations I have in schools, you have teachers and headteachers who, I remember at the time during COVID saying, you've got no idea how hard it is to get kids to understand why it is always right to tell the truth. When they look on their televisions and the people who are telling them how to live their lives and how to wear a mask and lockdown and all that stuff are proven liars like Johnson and Trump. So that has to be challenged. But your question, sorry, Alison,

was about what parents can do. I don't think we can expect our children to spend their whole time being media monitors of their own media consumption nor should we try to nor should we be making this cynical but i think you should be saying that when you get the whole thing on a sort of very very short package on a tiktok video i think we should and i'm afraid schools have to do this as well and the whole thing about critical thinking and so forth we have to persuade kids that part of communication is simplifying, making complicated arguments, come down to something that can be easily communicated. But you are not going to get a sensible, reasonable policy argument

about something that really matters to the world in a 20-second video that's designed to make you laugh. And I think, actually, it's all part of trying to make... I think we've got to become more serious about this stuff very interesting by the way i was just talking this morning to um a guy in australia prime is the is the premier of south australia guy called peter malinowski peter malinowski and we interviewed him on the podcast a while back, and he is trying to ban children from having access to social media. Yeah, I've seen this. Now, what's really interesting about it is he commissioned a report by, I think it was a former high court judge, about, you know, the Australian government as a whole, has come in and basically said, we are minded to support this. And so I think that's a really interesting example of how something, an issue where, you know, I'm sure you talk about it loads on your podcast, you know, an issue that lots of parents really really concerned about

lots of kids are actually concerned about but it takes a government to come along and say what are we going to do now it may be it was interesting when we talked to peter malaskas on the podcast he said that the social media companies just weren't engaging with him they just didn't want to know um yeah now now I think that that's an example of government coming along because probably only government can do that. Now, the social media companies will do everything to try and stop it. But, you know, it's part of – so that's – and here's – I was in a school somewhere in South London a few weeks ago,

and we'd just interviewed Peter Malinowskis on the podcast. And I said, so I've just been talking to this guy. He wants to ban your age, kids your age, from having access to social media. And they went, oh, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that, you can't do that, you can't do that. And they did. Yeah, so hold on.

So we had a debate about it, and everybody was saying, no, it's a stupid idea. It's part of everybody's life. You have to know what's going on. That's how I get my news. That's how I stay in connection. My parents need to know where I am, all that sort of stuff. And then one girl, she said,

I think this is quite interesting, because I'd like to be off social media. And I said, why? And she said, because I know that every day I am seeing things that I shouldn't. And also, every day I'm seeing things that I find quite upsetting. Now, what happened after that was that other people started to stay the same. And by the end of it, it was kind of 50-50. And where the mood was, I'd say by the end, was people basically saying, 50 50 and where the mood was i'd say by the end was people

basically saying i'll come off it if everybody else does so you know that's that's that's um yeah so as a parent we've had those conversations on a you say we need a government to make that change no i'm saying on a smaller scale yeah no go on sorry on a smaller scale it's going on in schools a lot where if one child in the class gets a mobile or gets social media then it spirals and all the other kids want it and at the moment the only control we have as parents is to talk as a group within that class and say okay well we should all say that our children aren't going to have tiktok or we should all say and then it it doesn't work because one parent gives in and yeah yeah but i suppose yeah i mean but you know i would argue

that maybe when i was growing up you would have had the same thing in relation to what the new football boot might be um it's that that peer pressure has kind of always been there the reason why i say it takes government is because i think ultimately on something like this and it may it may not work i mean one of the and and you know i just don't know what's going to happen with this thing in australia but i'll tell you what it makes me think of when it, this is a totally different issue, but it sort of underlines the process. And this is one of the stories I tell

when I'm talking to kids about how change can happen, how you can make change happen. So, you know, when I was growing up, part of the sort of rite of passage of being a teenager is you smoke, okay? And I became a very, very heavy heavy smoker and then eventually i went to see a hypnotist and when actually when our first son was born and i stopped and i haven't smoked since but then when but the public debate about smoking and health it took decades to get

changed decades i remember when it was when i was a journalist there was an organization called ash action on smoking and health and they used to bombard us with their press releases about you know smoking causes cancer smoking does this smoking does that and we would just put them in the bin because frankly the newspapers couldn't live without tobacco smoking at your desks at your desk whilst looking through your paper where there was an advert there from Marlborough Cigarettes or Embassy Regal, right? Now, we were part of the government that then actually stopped allowing advertising like that, sports sponsorship and so forth, and eventually outlawed smoking in workplaces and including, you know, pubs and restaurants. Now, here's the interesting thing

about this why i'm so fascinated about this coming out of one state in australia when we first started to discuss that we knew that the irish government were also looking at it and we said let's just see how it goes in ireland you know so ireland because ireland with their drinking smoking culture and all that and guinness and all that stuff and the pubs. And it went well in Ireland. And that's why we did it. And then other countries did it. And now, you know, there are still countries in the world where you can smoke in pubs and restaurants and workplaces. But in general, we have become a healthier country.

The world has become a healthier place because those campaigners whose press releases we kept ignoring never gave up they just kept going other people kept going they keep going with the data so i just think it's important to you know you meet so many people who say why is this happening why is that happening why can't we do this why can't we do this? Why can't we do that? And it sometimes feels so hopeless that everybody gives up. And I'd say that stories like that, whether it's, you know, the smoking ban, or it's, you know, some of the changes that's been made in the climate campaign, whatever it might be, whether it's the history of women's votes, the history of racial equality, the history of gay rights, and so forth. It all happens when people campaign for it to happen and along the way every

single campaigner there comes a point of saying this is completely pointless it's never going to happen this change is never going to come and then hey presto change comes not always but it does it does so what's your view then on the voting age being lowered because that is debated quite often um you know if it's lowered to 16 do you think that younger people should have more of a say in who runs our country 100 100 i've actually argued that for a long time and i remember when when i it was one of the few things that tony blake and i used to disagree about he just he couldn't really see that it was that big a deal i find kids way more interested in this stuff than

we give them credit for. It gives people the locus to understand why they should be involved in those debates at a very, very early age. And it was interesting, you know, again, to go back to the Trump-Harris debate, on the back of which Taylor Swift came out with and told her 75 billion, squillion, trillion, zillion followers that she's backing Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. But I thought the way she framed it was really, really smart. She basically, she wasn't saying vote Kamala because Trump's a lying, racist, misogynist, whatever.

She actually said, we've all got a responsibility to do our own research yes i thought that was that was what i really liked and i've looked at what they're saying and i've read about what they're saying i've thought about it and i'm going to be back putting my support behind kamala harris and i think it's just that sense of of explaining that we've got to take it seriously. It does matter. So I want to ask you about the lost art of disagreeing agreeably, which I think is a very great blurb line for your podcast. I think that for lots of young people, and you've touched on this a little bit already,

but the idea of disagreeing with someone, but it not being a huge deal or a big argument especially when they're hot-headed teenagers is a foreign concept and yourself and Rory manage it admirably you don't have many on-air punch-ups I noticed well we've had a couple I'm not sure what happens off air, but we probably don't want to know. No, it's fine. So how did you kind of, what would you say to parents trying to get young people to listen and consider rather than reacting? I'm sure you had to do it with your kids as well. How do you teach that lost art of disagreeing agreeably?

It's so funny because I think my kids, my kids listen to me going on about disagreeing agreeably it's so funny because i think my kids but if my kids listen to me going on about disagreeing agreeably and they say that's not what you do um so i think i have i think i have changed i think i've become different and i think the podcast in a way has changed me it's quite it's quite a funny story the background to this, because the actual phrase disagreeing agreeably, Boris Stewart was horrified when I told him this, because he's not a big fan of John Bercow, the former speaker. But actually, it was it was John Bercow, who said to me, I was at an event, and he was there, we were chatting when he said, you know, the thing is, as to we've lost the art of disagreeing agreeably and i and this is just as i was i hadn't even started the podcast by then but that was where it sort of you know implanted itself so so it's a sort of deliberate strategy for the podcast thank you i'm glad you've noticed um the but but i think when you say how do you i think in most people's

lives they are disagreeing agreeably you know i think when you look if you if you live your life on social media people are shouting to each other and calling each other names and all that stuff if you watch the news it's kind of you know there's a lot of that going on but most of the time most people are not having those sorts of conversations they have those sorts of conversations either when something important is really at stake or when there is a kind of sense of misunderstanding and people are actually listening to the other person's view. I think the most important thing is what we try to do. It's genuinely trying to listen to what the other person is saying and not always listening to who they are who that person is and the tone in which they're saying it um it's tricky it's very tricky it's very tricky

and i i'm you know i'm i've got a temper and i can really get riled up very very quickly but i have definitely got better at doing that when i I find I do that. So, for example, we don't need to disagree agreeably because actually we're not disagreeing about anything here. You've asked me a question. I've explained the background to the answer to the question. And we're both now in agreement that it's better to converse like this than it is to say, no, you're right, I'm wrong. You're wrong, I'm right. that's makes for a better conversation i think the other thing to say is that and this is where again i think that the way that politics is developed hasn't really helped i think there was a sort of basic understanding when i was growing up and when i was younger maybe even when i was a journalist the political process was actually a kind of never-ending thing where debate debate around big issues and specific smaller issues you know the

big thematic stuff about state of the world future of the country communism capitalism all that big stuff that was going on that there was a sense that that was what politics was about, was that never-ending debate. And what debate means is that you argue about things. And sometimes the arguments flare up and they end in a choice. A choice has to be made. Are you voting for this or are you voting for that? Are you passing this law or are you passing that law? Are you going to amend it in this way or are you going to amend it in that way?

But I think that we've slightly lost that and that politics has become much more almost a sense of part of the entertainment industry it's you know you hear i'll tell you when i felt it was going really badly wrong there's nothing wrong with politics with public wanting to like politicians but that whole thing about you know oh well say say what you like about johnson but it makes me laugh um you know say what you like about donald trump i could imagine you know i'd really like to go for a game of golf with him and have a laugh with him um you know it's it's sort of it we've got away from that that idea this is what rory stewart's book goes about really is that we've

lost the sort of the understanding of the seriousness of politics so what i've tried to do in the books is in a hopefully accessible way is say look i hope i can make this interesting and entertaining but it is serious it is serious politics is a serious business and we need serious people to think about it to think about being involved in it and also to understand that politics isn't just for politicians we're all all of us in politics, whether we like it or not. Yeah. Now, you famously parted ways with the Labour Party, but what are your hopes for this new Labour government, especially when it comes to families and young people?

Well, I mean, I didn't part ways. My way was parted for me by Jeremy Corbyn when he was the leader because he kicked me out. But I've always been Labour and I suspect I always will be Labour. Look, my hope for this Labour government is that they really do fix the mess that we're in. And I think when you're talking about,

I guess if I had to pick on a couple of specifics in relation to families and young people, and we're speaking at the time of this big review of the National Health Service, I would like to see a complete transformation in the way that we deal with mental health, and understand that we need to move away from what we have now, which is a mental health, a mental crisis service, and actually develop the sense of a mental health service where we're investing which is a mental health, a mental crisis service, and actually develop the sense of a mental health service where we're investing in kids' mental health. And we're

actually hopefully creating a situation where fewer and fewer people end up in crisis. Because I think at the moment, that's all we have. If you end up in crisis, if I jumped off this, you know, I'm at the top story in my house now, if I jumped off the top now, they'd find me somewhere, they'd look after me somewhere tonight um because that would be viewed as a genuine crisis you'd try to jump off a building but if all the different steps between you know not feeling great to get into that if there was just a way of of kind of you know intervening at those points with something that could be very, very, very simple. And so that's the first thing I'd say. I think that I'd really like to see a different

approach to mental health. I think I'd like to see more, I think I'd like to see more optimism and understanding about the positives that young people bring to, I think they get a very bad rep. I mean, partly it's a media thing. I'm not saying that young kids are perfect. They're not. But I just feel that they need to be trusted more and invested in more. I don't mean invested in financially,

invested in more emotionally and intellectually to be seen as part of the solutions to the problems that we're facing rather than them being the problem. And then I think that, you I think more broadly, more generally, I think that one of the real lasting damages that's been done by recent years, and I keep going on about Johnson because I think he is the sort of symbol of this, is the, I think if we're going to turn the country around,

we are going to have to turn around attitudes to politics and public service and so i'd just like to see from this government professional competent honest leveling with people political debate that leads sometimes to doing things that the public don't want done but at least treat them as grown-ups and explain to them properly why you're trying to do it so i think if i'd say i'd say mental health um proper you know modernizing the education system so that kids feel that they're actually in an education system that is relevant to the modern world and then i think turn around attitudes to public service by showing not by telling but by showing that there is a different and better way to do to do government um now as we've mentioned your books about empowering young people in the political world but if you could go back in time and tell young alistair one thing what would it be

don't smoke at your desk do you know those i was going to say? Put that fag out and put that drink down. I was going to say that. There we go. Look, I've now not smoked for 37 years, but I still have issues with my breathing, with asthma. And I don't know that it's smoking related, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think the other thing I would say to myself, even though I've had and hopefully can continue to have a good and interesting and varied career,

I think I probably would back then not have said to myself things that I do now say, as I said to you earlier, to kids when I go into schools. I think I probably did have quite limited aspirations for myself. So I think I would say, actually, do you know what? Don't have any limit to your aspirations. Don't think there's anything you can't do. Now, the truth is, there are loads of things I know I can't do. I'm not scientific. I'm not technological, as you know, which is why I was nine minutes late for this podcast trying to work out how to connect. So there are certain things i know i can't do but there are other things which i think back when i was talking to a young me i would have assumed i would never be able to do which i've ended up doing um so i'd say yeah i think don't

limit don't be arrogant don't say i'm better than everybody else and i can do what the hell i want like the sort of elon musk approach to the But do say to yourself, do you know what? If I really work hard and if I really think about things and I work out what I'm good at and I do them well, there kids, say, in a poorer area and kids in a more affluent area is about aspiration and confidence. It's about actually feeling they are entitled to think that they might be able to do something that, you know, their background is telling them is out of their reach. I think that's a real problem in this country. There's a lot to think about there, Alistair. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We very much appreciate your time. My pleasure. It's been great. Thank you for having me.

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