The Netmums Podcast - S16 Ep10: Burnout, balance and activism: Anna Whitehouse on redefining motherhood and self-care

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

This episode of The Netmums Podcast features Anna Whitehouse, known as Mother Peach, a campaigner, radio presenter, and author. Join Wendy and Alison as they discuss the challenges of motherhood, the importance of self-care, and flexible working rights for parents. Anna’s new novel Influenced is released on 14th August. She has also teamed up with Lovehoney, to pull back the covers on sex and intimacy pre and postpartum, being part of Lovehoney's 'Mama Sutra' campaign. At its core this is a free ebook for Mums at every stage of motherhood, offering support and guidance, and sharing real-life experiences. Key topics include: - The Vulnerability of Motherhood: Anna shares how motherhood reveals strengths and vulnerabilities. - Self-Care: Discover why prioritising personal needs is vital for mental well-being. - Challenging Gender Roles: Anna discusses the dad strike and the importance of active fatherhood. - Co-Parenting Insights: Anna shares her journey through separation, explains the concept of ‘Magpie Parenting’, and the value of open communication. - Being a 'Geriatric Mum': Reflecting on societal pressures and the resilience of older mothers. - Relationships and Intimacy: A look at emotional connections in relationships post-baby. - Flexible Working Future: Anna's vision for flexible work to support parents. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums  Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the Netmums podcast with me, Wendy Gollich, and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show… You get cracked open like a nut when you have a baby. You are your most vulnerable self. And when I say vulnerable, that doesn't mean weak. You know, I think the words vulnerable often have connotations of brokenness, weakness. No, vulnerable is an opportunity to completely find out who you really are. Who I was before was just a sort of half-baked version of who I am now. And that has come through walking through maternal fire. But before all of that, this episode of the Netmums podcast is brought to you by Tesco.

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But hurry, because the Baby and Todd toddler event is only on for limited time. To find out more head in store or online at Tesco.com Hello folks, welcome back to another episode of the Netmums podcast. Now, Alison, it's summer, it's sunny, tell me about your week. Has it been a good week? This is the happiest you get me folks, the sun's out, so go on. I know, it's not like you to be so positive and upbeat, Wendy. Do you know what, I'm just feeling, I'm just feeling also relief. You know that relief you get when you've had kids off school sick and they suddenly get better and they go back to school

and you have the house to yourself and you can work and you can get things done. Yesterday I had my teenager and one of my six-year-olds off sick and I had a full day of work and it was just stressful so today I feel like I can do anything I can tackle the world, it's great. How about you? Oh I'm glad they're better. Well I am unusually perky for me, we all know that I'm a miserable cowbag most of the time, but the sun's out and my flowers are blooming and everything's good.

So yeah, I'm good, thank you very much. And we have a great podcast guest today. So it's all good. I know. Well, we nearly have two podcast guests actually. Well, we do, we do, more on that soon. We're joined today by someone who is a campaigner, a radio presenter and an author. Anna Whitehouse is perhaps best known as Mother Pukka, the voice behind the Flex Appeal campaign

that has helped bring flexible working into the mainstream. She co-hosts the Dirty Mother Pukka podcast and presents her own show on Heart Radio every weekend. Anna's debut novel Underbelly tackled motherhood, ambition and online culture and her brand new novel Influenced is out in August. I'm very Anna's debut novel Underbelly tackled motherhood, ambition and online culture, and her brand new novel Influenced is out in August. I'm very excited about that. And we're very excited to have Anna with us with a very special guest of her own. Anna, welcome to the Netmums podcast.

Hi, hello. How are you doing? I'm just distracted by the baby folks. Tell us who you have with you today. I'm here with little Lola. She's just woken up from her nap. So she's nap fresh, which is the baby equivalent of box fresh.

And she is, yeah, my little, what are you, my little friend, my little colleague, my, I don't know, like joyful little human appendage. So if we hear any gurgles or any noises, it's not your tummy, you're not needing a snack. It's not Anna's stomach. It's Lola.

So Anna, you have been living a bit of your best pop life in the past week or two. Kylie, Beyonce, how important is it that that kind of time away from the day-to-day mum juggle happens for you? I think this is my third child and I'd say the first two would be weighted with, and I can't stand the phrase mum guilt, but would be weighted with any kind of guilt. So I'd be sitting here probably feeling guilty if you even asked me that question, going, oh my god, well, you know, I didn't deserve to do that,

and I shouldn't have been out, and I shouldn't have, you know, seen two major pop icons in one week. What were you thinking? And I think I've been more explicit this time around in my needs, my needs for us, and that is the support I need for my partner. Because ultimately, I think we exist as women, as mothers, still in the echoes of a system that's set up for men to simply walk out

the door and go to work while we are left holding. When I say the pieces, it's like the house of cards, one goes, the rest comes tumbling down. And I saw this very funny meme the other day, I think it was set in 1960, and it was this woman simply saying to her husband, going, um, I've brushed kids' teeth,

I've packed their lunches, I've ensured that they've got shoes on, coats on, I've planned the forms, I've planned the trips, I know what we're doing this week. She's like, how did you just get out of bed? and sure that they've got shoes on, coats on. I've planned the forms, I've planned the trips. I know what we're doing this week. She's like, how did you just get out of bed? And he said, well, you know, you need to pace yourself with it.

And I think when someone asks like, how important is it to do something for yourself, the word self instantly goes to selfishness. And I think actually the word self, especially I think as you become a mother and you give yourself physically, emotionally, mentally to everyone else, self just simply means self care, self worth, yourself.

And I've sat with myself a lot in this pregnancy and birth. And so to answer that question, you know, Queen Bey and Kylie deserve my time just as much, to be honest, as my family did. What was really interesting about what you said there is you said, we're left holding the pieces. And that really struck me because so often the comment is, you're left holding the baby.

But it's so much more than the baby. You're not just holding, if you were just holding the baby, but it's so much more than the baby. You're not just holding, if you were just holding the baby, it would be lovely. You could sit and watch loose women and cuddle your baby. But it's not that, it's all the other stuff. It's the millions of forms from school and have you sponsored this? I've got to sponsor a chair this week.

Like, all, don't ask, but lots of... I was just really interested that you said holding the pieces because to me that really struck a nerve. Well I think we have to be explicit about it's like the iceberg that you see. So you see the tip of that iceberg but no one sees the underbelly underneath the water and I don't... and I think the thing is when you express what I've just expressed as mothers, as women, you say well I've done this, I've done that, I've got to do that. And sometimes you don't even have time to explain what you've got to do. You often sound at that point, almost breaking point, like you're whinging, you're a martyr, that you're complaining, you're being negative, all of these words that land when you're trying to simply explain the uneven weight of the domestic load.

So then when you do get asked the question, you know, did you enjoy, Beyonce, or did you enjoy having, going to the toilet on your own? Whatever it is that's your self-care and respect, you immediately sort of go into shutdown mode of, oh my God, I don't even have time for that. And actually, the most important thing is, yeah, is to recognise what we're carrying, but also recognise, I can put it down, I can hand it over to someone else and I should. It's depressing when going to toilet on your own is seen as self care, but it's such a treat when it happens. Do you think that taking that time for yourself helps you reconnect with the version of Anna that existed before kids?

I think she has long gone Alison. I wonder if you would say that. Oh, babe, she's, yeah, I don't know who she is or where she is, but she absolutely is not in the building anymore. And I'm really glad about that because you get cracked open like a nut when you have a baby. You are your most vulnerable self. And when I say vulnerable, that doesn't mean weak. You know, I think the words vulnerable often have connotations of brokenness, weakness. No, vulnerable is an opportunity to completely find out who you really are. Who I was before was just a sort of half-baked version of who I am now. And that has come through walking through maternal fire, I would say, being alone, feeling alone, even when I'm with all my children,

the isolation of motherhood, the devastation of miscarriage, the things we go through before we even hear that first cry. I'm really proud of the exhausted, yogurt-covered, really, really broken woman that I am today, because I know I've watched you to sort of get here and one little smile from this one and I know what I mean to her and I see my reflection in her eyes. I see my reflection in her first words and her confidence in putting one foot in front of the other when she does that, going into the world.

And that doesn't mean I'm a martyr to the maternal cause, but I'm incredibly proud of the reflection I see of myself in my children. So you've spoken quite a lot about how this generation of mothers is completely burnt out, totally overwhelmed, having been raised to believe that we could have the job and the family. And what do you think needs to change

to help us address that and not be so burnt out and overwhelmed? So actually really good timing because I went on the first ever dad strike yesterday, which was a huge relief. Alice and I have known each other for about 10 years. And she will remember when I first started campaigning on the streets for parental rights,

really clearly not just maternal rights, parental rights are maternal rights. It was all women turning up, mothers exhausted, carrying the domestic load, carrying the baby, and then carrying the weight of activism to change the system, to give us more support. So, we were, you know, equality isn't for women to fix. And so what needs to change is what happened yesterday. I turned up to the dad strike, and it was dads with baby straps. And it was dads shouting for their desire, their needs to support their partners,

to hold the baby. We are long gone in the hapless dad tropes of the 1950s, you know, where men went out and earned the bacon and women cooked it. We're all earning the bacon. We're all cooking the bacon. We're all trying to hold on for dear life. And it was the first time the optics, to be honest, Wendy and Alison, the optics have completely changed on everything I've been fighting for because finally men's voices were in the mix. Dads aren't, they're not, you know, they don't just spunk and leave. They want to parent. The problem is the workforce, the world we work in is still making it feel emasculating for men to raise their own children.

And there's nothing more masculine than caring for your own child. And I think what needs to change is what happened yesterday. A lot more men standing up, being loud, pushing back. Don't play the game of the Lord Suggers and the Sir Dyson's and the Jacob Rees Mogs, who just want you to change your desk and think it's really emasculating looking after your own children because they have rep around childcare nannies, helicopters, and private chef. Like, step up to the plate. And I think men and dads in this conversation are the other side of the equality coin.

And that's what needs to change. Women shouldn't just be left holding the baby. CHARLEYY- So in terms of the dad's strike that went on yesterday, do you think that, what would your ideal paternity rights situation look like and what impact do you think that would have on mums as well as dads? KATE So what we were campaigning for yesterday was for minimum of six weeks paternity leave. Because, you know, anyone listening to this podcast right now, have a real think about that juncture

of when your partner or your non-birthing partner went back to work. It's that point where your scars are burning, your boobs are leaking, your hormones are raging, your baby's crying, and your partner walks out the door and you're left on your own with kind of pieces of postpartum. You can't see the wood from the trees. And that's just the juncture where women slip into, I don't mean slip into is a bit of a callous way of describing it, but I think can edge into post-natal depression at that really, again,

that word vulnerable juncture, not weak juncture, vulnerable juncture. And so six weeks is still not enough, but I think it's a step in the right direction. And I think men need to be paid the same amount for that time. I think it's 90 percent for maternity leave of your average salary. Men need the same so that there is more of a carrot approach to this, to getting men to actually be able to financially do it. So there's a hell of a lot that needs to change.

And we're trying to change it, aren't we, Lola? So let's go back and talk about the Flex Appeal, which you launched back in 2015. What was going on in Anna's life at that time that pushed you to start campaigning? Was there something kind of in your working life that made you think, Christ, something's got to give, I can't do this anymore?

Yeah, I think it's probably that moment that you've both had, and again, anyone listening's had, where you have to go and pick up your child from nursery and it's a real like vice-like grip of timings where you have to leave at like 459pm and I used to call it running the gauntlet like running the parental gauntlet. My nursery used to charge £10 per 10 minutes if you were late past 6pm. We were in past 6pm. So it was a financial gauntlet because if the train was delayed, you could be £60 lighter by the end of that day.

Yeah and you're looking at that hour and a half period which is painfully stressful. If there's leaves on the line or somebody gets their briefcase stuck in the tube door or there's a delay, you can feel it right now, that heart rate. You can feel how you would feel because you know your little child's there with their paw patrol backpack on, big bambi eyes waiting for you, watery eyes wondering why you're the only parent that's late and they don't understand that the system's stacked against you and it's not mommy's fault but you feel that guilt. And so I think the moment I decided to step away and try and change things for my girls

was when I was saying sorry, relentlessly. I'm so sorry, I've got to leave this meeting. I'm so sorry, I'll be there in a minute. I'm so sorry, I'm late. Okay, here's another pound for every minute that I've been late. And I'm so sorry. And I realized one night when I had apologized to everyone,

and finally to my little girl who was sat there, the last to leave once more, I remember thinking, do you know what? So it makes me really teary. It's not my fault. And I remember the first time I just drew a line in the sand, I went, it's not my fault that the system is stacked against mothers.

I say mothers because it was as wonderful as the key workers were at my nursery. I was the one that was always called. The weight of childcare was always on my shoulders, despite the fact I was desperately trying to carve out my own career. And so in that moment, I thought, do you know what? Really sadly, I can't change this for me. I never changed it for me. But I can't raise my daughters to, let's say, work hard in their ABCs, work hard in their GCSEs, work hard in their A levels, and hit

the same blockade and the same wall that I did. I can't raise them for that fall. So I have no choice but to step back and try and do my damnedest to change their futures as a mother. You're so right in terms of like that burden landing so squarely on so many mums' shoulders. I've seen quite a lot of Instagram and TikTok content recently about micro acts of feminism and one of the things I love is women saying, mums saying, I make sure that the only phone number that is on the school's books or the nursery books is my husband's or my partner's, my male partner's. And it just feels delicious that actually, you know, if you just organize it so that

it's the dad, only obviously if they're able to pick up the phone and respond. But it's like, that feels to me like we need they're able to pick up the phone and respond. But it's like that feels to me like we need more of that. Let's do more of that. Yeah, it's like reframing things. Like I said, the dads that turned up to the dad strike yesterday and all the men I know, they're not like shirking responsibility. You know, they want to lean in. But two weeks paternity is nothing. Like only one in 10 flexible working requests goes through for men, over four in 10 for women. So companies need to be accepting

these flexible working requests for men as well as women. Otherwise the weight of childcare will always remain on our shoulders, will always be carrying more. And then you ask the collateral damage of that, your relationship, bitterness, contempt, divorce. It's not just a bit of flexible working. It is the house of cards that I was saying.

I'm saying this divorced. You know, it's got such seismic impact. It's like a seedling of like inequality that breeds through to the rest of little family units until quite simply there Because my parents said, you can do anything. You can be anything. I said, no, Mum, Dad, I couldn't. I think there was a hell of a lot more structural change needed to happen for me to be able to do anything and be anything.

So 10 years on, do you feel like there are any sparks of hope? Do you think it's improved for any parents since you started Flex Appeal? Yeah, I think it's improved for any parents since you started Flex Appeal? Yeah, I think it has. I mean, Alison, we've known each other for a long time. And, you know, when I first started talking about it, like we were laughed out of the building, you know, it was sort of like, lovely, that'd be lovely thing to do, you know, is almost equivalent to like a ping pong table in reception or a craft beer tap, you know, oh yes, a lovely bit of flexible working, that would be really nice. You know, and it's, you know, it comes

down to how many of you have been in interviews where you've had the benefits listed off, like a 15% fitness first discount or, you know, an annual away day to the local Chamlee Spa. But when you want to know about the maternity policy, which is probably the most seismic way a company can support you, it's nowhere to be found. You can't find that information. And so I think the things that are changing have changed.

Like there's obviously the flexible working bill that landed. That is tootless currently and a hell of a lot more work to be done there. But the words flexible working a bill of air, you know, like in a world where it's now it didn't exist. And now it does. So there's that. I think that Gen Z are not working in the way that they're refusing to work in the way that we did, you know,

we're the generation that was sort of burning ourselves out till 10 p.m. Presenteeism was rife. You know, you pretend you'd gone to the toilet to try and go home to pick up your child by leaving your jumper or coat on the back of your chair. You know, we were a very different demographic of employee. So, look, it is changing. And like I said yesterday, dads were on the streets campaigning for their parental rights. It's not being left for women to fix. But are we still burnt out and exhausted? Yes. You know, I don't want it all. Categorically, no one I know wants it all. There was an amazing comedian who was like, no one feels good after an all you can eat buffet. You know, you don't feel good going back for those baby back ribs a

second time. No one wants all but you know what I do want something. And the problem is, is that in wanting that something I'm ending up doing it all because we're in a generation where men were raised with mothers who did everything and still didn't have the choice. It was very much men went out, women were caregivers predominantly. And so we've got a generation of men who grew up in the echoes of that structure, who aren't, you know, they should be getting with the program, but aren't equipped to know what

genuine support is, to understand domestic labor. And we have a workplace, a workforce, that is only just understanding, oh, God, flex working is now a legislative change. We might have to get with this program after a pandemic. It took a pandemic. It took a pandemic for companies to recognize that, oh, God, so this isn't just going to benefit an employee,

this is quite handy for us to have. And also it's possible. It's taken over by the plague. It's actually possible to do it. You know, companies can continue generating, you know, being productive and generating revenue and it doesn't all fall apart. She's so smiling. and it doesn't all fall apart. She's so smiling. So the best. You've been really open about your separation from your ex-husband Matt and how you're co-parenting now, including trying magpie parenting.

So is that something you're still doing and what made you try it? And perhaps could you just explain what it is for anyone listening who doesn't know? Yes, absolutely. So, magpie parenting is where the children stay in the same home and the parents fly around the nest essentially. So it's important to preface it with it comes with a weight of privilege to be able to afford a flat outside of the home, you know, that the other parents in, whilst you're caring for the other parents caring for their sort of 50% of child care on their weeks.

It's not a sustainable model long term for anyone. You know, it's it's too disruptive for the adults. But what it did and we did it for the best part of three months, it gave the kids security and solidarity of geography and location, or you, without them having to sort of think about where their things were, et cetera, while we let the dust settle a bit

on what was a really, really tough time, you know? It's certainly not been without its pain. She's bored of us now. She's really, she's like, I'm done, I'm done with you. Why do you play with a makeup brush? I've literally been playing my bra for the last half hour. So play with that. They never play with the toys you want them to play with,

ever. Apart from Sophie the Giraffe, that was always the one. Do you remember Sophie the Giraffe? I remember Sophie. Everyone had a Sophie the Giraffe and they were all a bit manky, but the kids, they were the one thing you could guarantee would always distract them. She can't stand Sophie, I'm afraid. She's very up and down.

I'm disappointed in you. This is just a quick reminder that this episode of the Netmums podcast is brought to you by Tesco's Baby and Toddler event. Head in store to see all of the brilliant money saving offers or visit tesco.com. Anna, what would you say has been the biggest challenge for you straddling the baby and the tween parenting stages? Sorry, my doorbell just gone, give me two ticks. Carry on, Anna, you can answer that

while she's answering the door. Big challenge... I think it's been in asking for help, definitely. I think I have been very vocal in not... I think I have been very vocal in not edging into the superwoman kind of trope, which doesn't serve anyone, especially your children. I don't want this now, my new life, to be a blueprint of mommy does it all and absorbs it all and then has a massive breakdown every six months. You know, like, I think that, you know, championing women for being super mom is just so problematic. And that is

something I've been desperately trying not to do myself because in my core, my essence, I want to do everything for everyone. I want people to be happy. You know, my instinct, I think your maternal instinct is to wrap your arms around those that need it. And that's your family, it's your partner. So you don't realize sometimes the point where you've crossed over into slight burnout or when you've crossed over into yourself not feeling okay or being okay.

And this time round managing six months old alongside an 11 year old sort of edging into the tween kind of years. I've been clearer on comms with my eldest, like we have an amazing relationship now where we talk about everything. And so there's nothing lingering. We just can be explicit with each other. I'm like, how are you? Are you OK with, you know, mommy and daddy living separately now? Are you okay? How are you feeling? You know, and we've got such a great relationship that because I've been able to in the echoes

or the embers of divorce, actually become more of the parent or the mother that I've wanted to be, because I've not had somebody by my side who I've had to navigate and manage who parents differently. And that's not to say my ex and I parent wildly differently. The girls have real continuity between the two houses,

but I have different strengths. Matt has different strengths, you know? And so in those weeks, your strengths come to the fore. And so I have been able to manage and I think successfully navigate quite a difficult few years by putting my hand up and saying to my eldest, I'm struggling right now. Mommy's taken on a bit too much. Mommy's crying because I took on too much. It has nothing to do with you. Whereas historically, I take myself away

and cry behind the scenes and they'd hear me crying and then worry that it was something bigger. And so I've been emoting overtly, and that has brought me closer to my daughters, and it's absolutely brought me closer to my partner, my friends. Again, vulnerability is not weakness, and that has been the biggest strength

in a very difficult few years is recognizing that that breaking down, putting a hand up, raising the white flag is not a sign of weakness and it's certainly not a sign of failure. And so I'm really sitting with that and I'm sitting with the chaos. I used to be really, really controlled and organized and everything had to be together. I now literally am like, it is what it is. She's playing with an old Biscara wand. We roll with it. So you've been talking about how proud you feel of being a geriatric mum, having Lola at 43. I too was a geriatric mum. Geriatric. I think we all are, really. I think most people who have a baby these days are geriatric, to be honest.

Tell us why you're so proud to be a geriatric mum. Well, I think, I don't know whether it's pride, but I think there was a real juncture that a lot of my friends and I went through, that maybe a lot of people listening right now went through, where you felt your tongue was running out. And that's not to say to play God with Mother Nature, you know, fertility. This is not a fertility conversation. This is more of sort of patriarchal conversation where there was an element of if you are not married and shacked up and ready to have a baby at 29, you know, you have failed as a woman and you will fail as a mother. And I don't know why I listened to that. I don't know why I felt the pressure around

that. But I think a lot of people, a lot of women, succumb to decisions that maybe don't work for them because of that kind of pressure. So it's not so much pride at being a geriatric mum, but I think it's a sense that our bodies are incredible and with the right support, you know, 43, it ate over, you know, 43, it ain't over, you know, and in the same breath to recognize, again, the extraordinary fertility privilege in that, you know, that this isn't me blindly saying, oh, God, just wait till you're 43 and you'll be fine. I don't know. Everyone's journey is completely different. But I absolutely categorically felt like the minute the clock struck, you know, 30 years old on my birthday,

that I was somehow redundant. Oh, I had uncles coming up to me at Christmas parties and saying, tick, tick, tick. Yeah. It's like, what? No. No, it's, um, and I think also, like, um, like coming back to the campaign that I've obviously been working on with Love Honey, like, like holding, holding yourself as this brilliant, sexual, uh, fertile, perhaps, woman, age, like, 40. I was actually 40, 43 when I had her. I remember looking at 40 year olds back in the 80s and just thinking, oh, well, that's when it's over. You know, it's done like that we were almost we wrote people out you think of all the fashion ads back in the day and even now, you know, you drop off a cliff the minute you're sort of 27. No one's marketing to the 43 year old geriatric mom going,

this is a great jumpsuit for you. But you know who has the ability to buy the jumpsuit? It's probably, you know, a 43 year old mom who's had a career and actually wants nice things still. We've sort of written out. And I think it was not so much a pride of being geriatric mother as it was pride of being a woman aged 43, who realized she has the rest of her life in front of her.

Whether that involves a child being born in that year or whether that involves completely regaining a purpose that was perhaps taken away from you cruelly by a company that made you redundant on maternity leave or a partner who wasn't there to support you through maternity leave and return. You know, I think there's so many biological junctures in our life where we get written out. And really, all I feel is an immense pride in being a confident woman who can emote and explain to people what she needs and is there in spades for those that need it from her. Like that's our wealth, that's our currency. I don't want accolades, trophies, you know, I need enough to get by. But really what I want is that people know where they stand with me and

that I know where to go when I am drowning. that's really the essence of I think that age being significant. And you mentioned the Love Honey campaign, which I thought was really interesting. I saw a stat that almost half of mums are having less sex after birth, which didn't surprise me because frankly, who's got the energy when you've got a baby and then they get to the tween teen stage and they never go to bed and that makes it even harder. So yeah, how good are you at carving out time for you and Ollie? Well I think the important bit in that is that intimacy is the word not sex sex. And I think it's not about a physical act. It's about a maybe grazing of a hand on your lower back in the kitchen. Just a little touch point in between the kids manic dinner where someone's throwing a sausage on the floor and it all feels a bit much.

It's arms around you when you can feel, when you can see as a partner, and I really hope any man listens to this, when you can see like, maybe the justified rage of an exhausted mother rising to the floor at like 7.31pm, when none of the kids are going to bed, she's been on it 24 seven, arms around her, like arms wrapped around her. It's not about sex, it's not about lingerie and dressing up and it being a performative thing

we should do, it's about connection. And that was really the heart of that campaign was, yes, sex and physical exchanges are important, but really it's about punctuation points of your daily life, the touch points of a domestically loaded scene where you can't see the wood from the, you know, the dirty undercrackers.

And it's really about finding love and connection in the chaos. That's really what it's really about finding love and connection in the chaos. That's really what it's about because sex comes from that when you're ready. I can't stand the term birthday blowjob or having to put out at certain times. It's like, Jesus Christ, we should be holding women postpartum. That six-week sign-off is... She agrees. That six-week sign off is, she agrees. That six week sign off.

She agrees. It means nothing. Like six weeks, nothing to heal. Internally, externally, physically, mentally. Jesus Christ, don't you dare try and put that thing near me. You know, like it's not about sex, but you know what comes from intimacy and moments and really just taking that one second to see someone, understand someone, hold them in that really vulnerable

period, to come back to that word. What leads to sex is those touch points and then suddenly those punctuation points of brushes and hugs and holding and let me get that. I've got you, you're not alone. All of those moments before you know it lead to having sex at some point when you're both ready. And that was really all I ever cared about feeling this time round was, I think don't underestimate the power of holding.

Holding is the sexiest thing you can do. And Ollie, I remember when I was feeling so broken, like boobs just leaking and those massive pants strewn around the house and just leaking out. It feels like everywhere. Eyes, like boobs, fanny, the whole thing is just like, it's messy. And he was like, I know what you're feeling right now, because he could see me looking in the mirror

and he's like, you have never been more beautiful. There is nothing more beautiful than you carrying our child. Like, and I just wish more men would maybe vocalize the beauty of a woman's vulnerability in that time. That is the sexiest thing you can ever do. And you know what? Then from there on, you feel safe and you feel held.

And weirdly, it's a massive turn on suddenly. And you're like, okay, yeah, do you know what? I'm not angry at you. You can come near me. And that's seismic, I think, in terms of how to repair postpartum. So you've always been really open about sharing your personal news online,

whether it's divorce, meeting someone new, getting engaged, having a new baby. But that must be so nerve wracking because then you've got to deal with everybody's responses. So how did you cope with that? Were there days where you just felt judged and it was horrible? I think you feel judged as a mother

regardless of how you operate in the world. You know, I think we judge ourselves. You know, I think we're our own worst enemy at times. So there's nothing someone can ever say to me that I haven't really said to myself. And I'm trying to reframe that, you know? I have personally found it really healthy and healing, hearing from so many women

who've gone through the same thing. You got anything else to say? I'm going to find you another thing from my makeup bag. Try the blusher. There you go. Do you want that? That's nice. That'll look...

Yeah, I found, I think, a community. And there's obviously the odd one or two who, you know, I can be quite triggering because I fight for women's rights in the workforce and for women who made redundant. And then if something happens to me, like a radio job or a book happens, that success can be seen as so triggering. So I can get that. I'd feel confronted if I'd followed someone for the fact that they were pushed out of the workforce and were, you know, at rock bottom. And then suddenly they rise up.

Of course, as much as we'd all love to have, wear the women's sports women's t-shirts and buy the teetel, unfortunately, life doesn't work like that. And things are triggering. And in the wrong moment, when you are breastfeeding that baby, you've been made redundant. And the woman who built you up and made you feel less alone suddenly gets a job, god, that's going to be triggering. So there's moments where I've held and empathized fully with anybody that's felt confronted by certain things, because I probably have felt the same. And in the same breath, there's been a multitude of women, Alison's had the same, who are just astonishing

and shared their own pay. So you just go, God, it really isn't just me. It wasn't just me miscarrying at my desk and not telling anybody because I feared my boss would not put me up for promotion. It wasn't just me, but at the time I felt so alone. I felt like I had to just bleed at my desk and not tell anyone because that was the done thing, because otherwise I might lose this job and I need so alone. I felt like I had to just bleed at my desk and not tell anyone because that was the done thing, you know,

because otherwise I might lose this job and I need this job. So in those moments of, you know, connection, I think people underestimate, it doesn't matter whether you've got a platform or not, you still feel left alone when you join the dots with a million other women who've gone through the same thing. with a million other women who've gone through the same thing. Yeah. Now your first novel, which I loved by the way, and your upcoming new book which comes out in August, they're both set in that online influencer space. But what do you think is like the biggest misunderstanding about that world? I think that, look, there's obviously some, there's people in the world who just are angry and there's a lot of justified anger. I think the majority, like there's two sides of the coin, you know, there's,

I think it's interesting that 86% of those who earn money online are women. So 86% of influencers are women. Now you look at that and you go, would you know why? Because it's the only flexible job that enables you to work around childcare, essentially. It's not, I didn't go into this going, do you know what my dream job would be? Would be, you know, being an influencer, speaking up on Instagram, putting posts up. No, I would love to be back in my job with a team around me and somebody to help me with IT support and knowing where I'm going every day, the inconsistency of it, knowing that the minute you put something up, you're a thousand eyes dissecting what you're doing. It's anxiety inducing. It's

not a particularly pleasant way of doing it. But do you know the wealth in that is right now I am with my daughter. I'm going to be picking my daughter up at 3.15 today, you know, that's my wealth, that's my currency. And so I will deal with, and I'm certainly privileged in everything I do, but I will handle anything else to enable me to be there for my kids right now. And that's not something everyone can do. So that's why I'm at that. But I think there is a misunderstanding in that those that seemingly are described as maybe trolls in this world are often a majority of the women I've spoken to who've either by their partners, by work, by their children. It's that juncture of menopause almost where there was such a misunderstanding of what it took to go through that.

There's a lot of women, lost women, who have anger, don't know where to put it. And so I think there is a misunderstanding because I do think, you know, the ASA gets it completely wrong in many places. You know, I don't think there's been enough understanding of how to navigate this brave new media. And that's not necessarily those who work in its faults, but it is definitely the governing body's fault. But equally, yeah, I think that there are a lot of women who have

been lost, like I said, from the workforce, from their marriages, from society, who aren't talked to anymore. You know, it's either beautiful grey-haired women in L'Oreal ads, you know, who don't represent, like, the majority of women aging and going through the metaphors, we're just not, we're not making space for women to grow. And so, yeah, I think it's a wildly misunderstood world, and it's a world that I want to bring more light to the nuance of. And that's why I wrote influence. That's why I wrote underbelly. It was to give like faces to the faceless avatars. So finally, Anna, before we leave Paula, who's getting fed up with us, clearly,

we're boring her to tears here. If you could wave a magic wand and do one thing to change the world before your daughters navigate it as grownups, What would it be? It would be that flexible working is woven into the kind of fabric of our working world, that it's not a nice-to-have, it's not something we have to say, please sir, please sir, can I go and pick up my child, but it is a fundamental part of the way we work.

My flexible work in Utopia would be a world where humans ebb and flow between work and home with autonomy of their own lives, a salary and ensuring they can live those lives, and a board that has 50% women on it to recognize how important that is to be implemented. And the only way unfortunately, it's carrot and stick and it's chicken and egg.

We can't get to that stage unless we stop putting up this maternal wall that women keep hitting. It's not about glass ceilings. It's about maternal walls. It's about the 74,000 mothers every year, made redundant for daring to have a baby. And I think until the working world recognizes that,

we're never gonna close the gender pay gap and we're never gonna have more women at the top. And I think the biggest report done of its kind by the Peterson Institute across 92 countries, 2,820 companies found that if you have 30% or more women at the top, you make more cold, hard cash. So when you say, what do I want? I'm looking at businesses going, this is what you need. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you to Lola as well, our guest of honor. It has been great to chat to you. Thank you so much. And if you want to check out the Love Honey campaign, it's on my Instagram and there's plenty of information there about what I was

talking about in terms of intimacy and not feeling that pressure to have sex too soon because I think so many of us feel like that's the key to connection when actually it's not. You are definitely not conducive to any kind of a law. Thank you Anna, it's been lovely to chat to you. Thank you. Don't forget you can get in touch with us on all social channels, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, just type in netmums and you'll find us. And if you liked what you've heard today, we'd love for you to give us a five star rating. Press the follow button and share the podcast on all your socials.