The Netmums Podcast - S16 Ep6: Why women are so angry! Jennifer Cox on the hidden power of women's rage

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

This episode of The Netmums Podcast features the insightful Jennifer Cox, a psychotherapist and author of "Women Are Angry." Join Wendy and Alison as they explore the complexities of anger in women's lives, shedding light on the often-silent rage simmering beneath the surface. The conversation covers: - The Nature of Anger: the societal conditioning that teaches women to suppress their anger and the importance of recognising and expressing these feelings for mental well-being. - The Impact of Upbringing: how childhood messages about being "good" can lead to repressed emotions, Jennifer highlights the detrimental effects this can have on women's health. - Permission to Feel: giving women permission to express their anger, discussing how this can lead to improved mental health and a sense of community. - Anger as a GPS: using anger as a guiding force for change in our lives, encouraging listeners to view their emotions as tools for personal growth. - Tools for Healthy Expression: practical methods for releasing pent-up emotions in a constructive way. - The Taboo of Maternal Rage: the stigma surrounding maternal anger and how societal perceptions can hinder women's ability to express their feelings. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums  Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollich, and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show… And the amount of husbands I hear about that come back from work and go, well what's the problem? You know, so and so's wife is absolutely fine. I really like your angry husband voice by the way. Oh don't, I've got a repertoire, I tell you. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Netmams podcast. Now I'm really looking forward to chatting to today's guests as she is the queen of all

things anger and rage. A title that I am aiming for many days on my own, on my own life, in my own life. God, it's one of those mornings. Alison, please tell me that I am not the only one. Do you know what? I think I'm in my era of actively trying to avoid anger and rage. Like, I've stopped watching the news. Oh, you're such a great woman. And I avoid getting... I used to dive into conversations on social media

about controversial things just to give my opinion, and now I actively avoid them. And I go, no, I don't have to get involved with that. So this is going to be a really interesting chat, I think, Wendy. Tell us who today's guest is, please. Our guest today is Jennifer Cox, a psychotherapist, writer, speaker and the author of Women Are Angry, a bold, brilliant book that lifts the lid on the silent rage simmering beneath the surface of everyday life for women. Through her Instagram community at Women Are Mad,

Jennifer has created a space where thousands of women feel seen, validated and a little less alone. Jennifer, a warm welcome to the Netmums podcast. Thank you, thank you very much for having me, happy to be here. What are your anger levels today on a scale of zero to angry? I have to say, I think since writing the book, they're much better than they used to be. I think it was a very cathartic experience and I think all the conversations I've had since, where other women have opened up and talked really openly to me about what they're angry about, I think that's really kind of reset my scores because it's sort of when you realise that other people are as furious as you are about everything going

on in our lives, it actually, yeah, it feels like community. It feels like here we are having a good chat, getting it out, it's very healthy. So let's talk about anger. There are lots of things, as you might have gathered, that I feel angry about. But as you say, many women don't even realize how angry we are, and that our rage is hidden. Alison talked about the silent rage

simmering beneath the surface. Mine is not silent, but tell us talked about the silent rage simmering beneath the surface. Mine is not silent but tell us more about that silent rage. So basically if you kind of think about when we grew up, when we were tiny and all the way through our tweenhood and into our teens, and into our teens. The messaging was always be good, be nice, be quiet, be kind, be sweet, be gentle. We weren't given a vocabulary to talk about anything really negative or something that might have hurt our feelings or offended us or made us angry. We just didn't have that kind of lexicon at our disposal and I think what I've realised, you know obviously with in years now working with women, is that once you start to give permission to particularly female patients in my in my case to

really like deep dive into what it is in a day in an hour that might have in fact not not irritated them not frustrated them but made them out and out furious like whatever they've come in with as a presenting symptom, whether it's anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's migraines, is rapidly improved and that and I could only begin to conclude this is because we have so much repressed rage within us and then obviously as I kind of did more research into the kind of nitty-gritty science of it and there is a fair bit but it's very much like lab settings, it's really kind of not coming to the real world but I started to apply that much more and realised oh my god yes here is my evidence, it's true, it's real, and the good health, the

better health in my patients was the real kind of data I needed. It's so interesting hearing you talking about the way that we were brought up and so many of us were brought up with the aim of being good girls and as parents now I've got three girls. And even this morning, one of my daughters was saying, I don't want to get into trouble with my teacher today because I'm a good girl. And I really thought about the chat that we were going to be having. I was thinking, okay, what's a good reaction here? And I said, you know, it's great to be good, but that shouldn't be, you know, the only thing that you're aiming for. You know, you can be strong, you can be brave, you can be fun, but also you can make mistakes and you can have days when actually things don't go to plan and that's

okay. And I was like, like madly just trying to think of like, what's the right thing to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, tell us, tell us why you think that teaching our kids, that, that trying to be good can actually be damaging. Oh my god. I mean, I think we are the lived examples of that. Like, if you think about every woman you know, she will have at least one sort of minor to major health complaint. She just will. By this point, we all do. And when you start looking at the stats of of where that might have come

from in terms of what we've done with emotion in our own bodies it's alarming and I think this is why like that conversation you had this morning is so important and and look how different it was to a conversation that you might have had like last week before you thought about you know what we were going to be saying today and I just think if we can all be a bit more aware of just how much we censor ourselves and stop ourselves from just simply taking up the little kind of centimeters worth of space on this planet holding our ground you know like asking for something we need.

It's absolutely shocking how little we do that and if we can just draw our attention a bit more to that, that I think will help guide us and steer us in terms of like how we're talking to our own children, especially the daughters. And I think, you know, it's interesting how you struggle to sort of find the words or what do I say? I don't want to tell her be naughty. I don't want to say be a bad girl. Yeah. But my God, there's a gulf. There's like a chasm. There's so much she would have to do to become disobedient or like rule breaking. You know, I think we all need to be a bit realistic about that.

You will have brought her up to be a considerate, kind person. I have, I really have. You really have. I get a good start. Yeah, you get a five. You've been a good girl. You've been a very good girl. Oh, it's so complex. I know, look at where it starts. Yes. We need to get naughty. We do. So it's interesting you should say this about suppressing needs and emotions. I remember when I had a kind of nine, ten-month-old baby

and I had post-natal depression and I was speaking to somebody to help me and the light bulb moment for me was her saying, you're so unable to ask for help that you won't even text your husband and say, we need milk. You will dress the baby, drag the baby out screaming, put yourself in a stressful situation to go and get the milk because you won't ask for the milk. Did you have that kind of light bulb moment when you realised that you'd been trained to suppress all of those our own needs and your own emotions? Yes I did and mine came I think it was sort of late, kind of let's say uni era, because essentially I'd been brought up

uni era. Because essentially I'd been brought up to be a carer to my older sister and you know it's no one's fault, that's the way it is. In those days people didn't say young carer but they would have now. And it was extremely painful as an experience but it was so normal to me I didn't ever step outside and you know look at myself as someone that needed to be felt sorry for or maybe needed a bit more by way of support herself and it was only really when I kind of got to college and started studying this stuff that these kind of realities really dropped into place for me and I thought what the hell have I been doing? And I guess it is quite, I suppose it is quite a unique perspective in that it's very it was quite an extreme perspective but what it made me realize was that so many girls I

was in a you know situation with there like studying and being friends with was sort of being asked to do similar not not obviously in as extreme a way but still like they would be sort of relied on by family to be the person that you know would say yes to everything, would get top marks in everything, would keep their bedroom very tidy and possibly you know babysit siblings and all the rest of it without being asked. There's so much that I think I realized we we just did without being asked. I mean you guys will know. It's like imagine anyone having to say to you will you you know put this wash on or will you clean the kitchen table? I mean it just happens you just

find yourself doing it and of course as mums that's it's inevitable but when did that start? Like for most of us it started way way back before we can even remember and and I think the kind of lived example like not even if you get into the kind of cleaning and the domestic stuff it's just that you will be somebody that takes responsibility for herself and you won't ever, as you're saying Wendy, put that on anyone else. You won't expect that anyone else would, you know, need to come forward and do any caretaking of you because you're the caretaker. You'll sort it all out, you'll go get the milk even if you're going out in like sub-zero temperatures with a tiny baby or like under a coat. It's like there's no question that's your job,

that's what you do. And it's insane. We're crazy. Yeah, we are. And you've mentioned already about how repressed anger can manifest itself in our bodies and how so many women have health issues. Is that genuinely, like do we know that that there's a correlation between anger and repressed emotion and physical health issues? And what are some of the signs that you've seen in your own clinic of that happening? Yeah so it is sadly it is a kind of established reality. Again it's more I would say in the kind of lab clinical medical settings that we know this but it's starting to sort of seep out. I mean you know The Body Keep the Score, that kind of the famous book that that kind

of brought it into the public sphere more, I think it was in the 70s or something. But he, I think he was revolutionary in that this is as psychotherapists, we've known this forever, that people hold emotion in their bodies, and that our bodies express our emotions, the things that we're not able to say or like articulate. But I don't think the general public were aware and I think it's still, GPs know it. I mean, I've got a lot of friends who are GPs and we talk about this frequently that, you know, if only you could offer psychotherapy to patients instead of just sending them off with a kind of I don't know prescription for a bit of physio or something that you know isn't gonna

work because the physio just gives you an exercise sheet and it's about something that's being held in the body at such deep levels. So there's a lot of clinical evidence and I really felt it was my job to start kind of spreading the message really widely to women in particular about how we can all start seeing it this way because it's giving ourselves the best shot then of making changes and it often doesn't have to be like costly or even inconvenient changes it can literally be like you know I've done with my own patients sort of suggesting that we get energy out of our body in sort of much more regular and like committed ways so that it just becomes part of our day.

Like punching pillows when someone said something to us you know and we don't know how to respond but we just take a moment, go to the loo at work, do star jumps in the loo. Like what I see in my patients and actually now in the kind of women are mad community is that when we start doing this stuff when we just accept these interactions these expectations bring negative energy into our body through adrenaline and cortisol levels and we have to discharge that energy because otherwise it sits in our cells and it begins a cascade of really negative inflammatory

responses which lead to disease. So you know this is fact, we know this, let's do something about it and yeah I, as you're kind of asking, there I've got so many really joyful examples of that now, like in my clinic and, you know, I guess across the like hundreds of women I've treated. So I just felt like it was really important to sort of find a way of spreading that message to many more women than I was able to meet like one to one. And it does seem to have worked. It's certainly got a conversation going. It's landed, let's put it that way. It's landed, it's struck a nerve. So why do you think so many women, especially mums, struggle to even recognise that they're angry, let alone express it? There's still that kind of taboo around maternal rage. Why do you think that is? I think people are scared, I think we're

scared of our own feelings like fundamentally because like we're saying when we weren't taught to be okay with them we weren't taught that these are just totally normal and that all humans feel this it's not just men that get the monopoly on feelings of anger actually what we know is that there was a big worldwide poll in 2022 that showed women actually were more angry than men so it's sadly a given but I think there is such a prejudice about the kind of witchy witchy bitchy like vibes of an angry woman. We look ugly, we look out of control, we look dangerous and you know, God forbid you're in charge

of a baby at that point. Everyone's scared, everyone's scared of what you might do and you know services get involved and and I mean certainly when I've worked deeply with like women with PND we get to the anger stuff really quickly and and now I know what I know I just go straight there because having had babies myself I fully understand how your life everything gets flipped upside down your life your body is turned inside out everything has changed and yet really the world around you continues as normal and not many people have much help like we just don't and then double that we're not great at asking for the help because of everything we've talked about and we don't feel like it's our right everyone

has babies like who am I to to like demand anything different it's meant to be that you're just sort of naturally amazing at it. There you are. But you've hit it there. Everyone else is doing it and why am I not managing? Yes and the amount of husbands I hear about that come back from work and go well what's the problem? So-and-so's baby, you know, so-and-so's wife is absolutely fine. I really like your angry husband voice by the way. Oh don't, I've got a repertoire. I tell you. Oh you just made me cackle like. Like a witch, like an angry witch.

Like an angry witch. Oh I can do angry witch well if you'd like me to. I'd love you to. I would love to see that. Yeah bring her on. Oh my goodness. I found it really fascinating to read you talking about the link between anger and online trolls because my own experience of trolls is that so many of them you realise are middle-aged women with really responsible jobs. Like you'll see them talking about how

their teachers or they work in hospitals or and it's like it's mind-blowing. Do you think that they're simply venting all of this built-up anger in a socially acceptable way? Yes I think that's exactly what's going on. I'm so sorry that's been your experience. I mean it's horrendous and I think we all know how brilliant women are at being absolute, I'm not going to swear, being really horrible to each other. That one, that one. We're amazing at it because the thing is if you haven't been allowed to be outwardly aggressive your entire life, you have to get very good at the sort of cutting comments at the bitchy asides you get really socially clever

and we know exactly what to do to just tear each other to pieces and something that I feel really strongly about actually now is that every time we get that impulse in us to say something a bit denigrating or mean about another woman, oh look at her hair, oh god did you see that skirt, that stuff, just stop and understand that that is programming, that is an own goal by the patriarchy to make us fight amongst ourselves so that our power never exceeds where they want us to be. We're trapped by it. We're so busy being nasty to each other. And yeah, I think releasing, as you say, Alison, releasing our kind of pent up fury that we can't express anywhere else on each

other that we don't progress we get capped and that's something that I'm really like I've got it I'm conditioned that way we've all been brought up like this honestly every time I feel myself like see someone on Instagram looking a bit ooh a certain way or what's she doing? No no no and you have to do it consciously like we it's habit we just have to relearn the habit say something good say something positive like send an amazing comment like you are the best and I love you. Let's not get Alison started on the comments about flattering clothing, otherwise we really will see her age. Oh Alison, I want to hear about this. It just wanes me

up when people talk about flattering clothing and how it's basically, it's called for, that makes you look slimmer than you are and it just bugs me because actually can we not just wear clothing that brings us happiness? Why do we have to be constantly trying to make ourselves smaller and shrink ourselves? But Wendy's heard me rant about it many a time. Yeah. Many a time. Good, I like this rant.

I like it. So what tools do you have for dispelling and expressing some of this anger in a healthy, non-destructive way? You joked about screaming into a pillow. And when the thing that always bugs me is when people say, go and have a nice bubble bath. Oh no.

Oh, do piss off. A bubble bath is not gonna make me feel better. Do absolutely piss off. And screaming into a pillow is not my thing. So what do we do if it's bubbling up and you can't just scream at someone because that's not very constructive What do we do? I mean we have to recognize I think that it is in our body That's where it starts and if we want to get it out like in a really direct and just efficient way

The best way is out through our body efficient way, the best way is out through our body. So I think if you're not, and it's funny, the whole kind of screaming thing, women really struggle with screaming. Like I've taken women on a few like screams now, like where you get a group together and you take them off into a secluded spot and you absolutely let rip. And it is amazing, but you have to help women do it like because it's like what what I'm allowed. Can I just interrupt a second with a funny screaming story please. Please. So one of my friends Mark went to a very wonderful spa retreat in Bali and as part of this spa retreat there's a sacred waterfall and you go and you kind of immerse your

head in this sacred waterfall and it's all very spiritual and he sent me a video of him and his husband at this waterfall and all you can hear is full on screaming and it's because at the top of the waterfall was the anger retreat because there was a bunch of ten women from Liverpool at the top of the waterfall screaming like you've never heard. And he's there going, oh, you don't cover it. And I said to him, did you hear this? He was like, yeah, it was a bit weird. We weren't sure what to do. So we just kept splashing the water and pretending we couldn't hear them screaming. But I did think that that retreat might want to separate their meditation and their screaming. Different day. I love that, like the kind of the strata of the

waterfall, top level, bottom level. Yes. They're so good. Yeah, I think, yeah, so screaming is hard. Screaming is hard and you have to really like ease women in and what I often say is if you can't do it for you, do it for a woman in your life who really had no voice. And that, I mean that releases a lot, often a lot of tears actually. It's powerful and I think in a kind of ordinary day like if we're at the office it's very difficult to go and scream. Although, maybe not in my room.

I'm just thinking of the little soundproof booths in the netmums office and whether we'd get away with going in and having a scream. I'm not sure they're that soundproof. That's the trouble, isn't it? It's like, once you realize how much noise you can actually make with this body, it's quite astonishing.

you can actually make with this body is quite astonishing. So I think running anything with impact, anything where you are getting the energy out of your body this negative impacted energy onto another surface is really really effective. So running, jumping on the spot, running on the spot, star jumps, like that kind of transfer of kinetic force from like one surface to another is really like magic. I mean I really think that's kind of why running is sort of quite popular among women because it's free and you can do it whenever you can fit it in and it really works. Like it's not great for your joints but I mean in terms of that just ability to get it out it's there's nothing quite like it I think especially if you're like away from you know the public and you could really like do some moves do some crazy moves at the top of a

mountain I think like even doing kind of karate sort of chops and punching the air I mean I've experimented with the gamut now, you can imagine. Like, I do have quite a repertoire on myself. And, oh, screaming in the car is good. Oh, that's a good one. Like, driving to a secluded spot. Make sure the windows are up. Yeah. Music on. You mean not outside the primary school when everyone else is going to the school run.

Windows up. That always reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Marge stops on a bridge and sits in her car and screams for an hour. Oh does she? Remember that one? Yeah. No! In Spoh.

Our hero Marge. Yeah. She was ahead of her time. I love it. Do you know what? Something that I do, especially if I'm like, if my kids are just really pushing my buttons and I'm busy making them dinner and they're, and we're doing stuff. Susie Redding, the psychologist, she told me about this thing called lion's breath where it's basically like, I'm going to look like a right idiot doing it now, but it's basically like a bit like screaming. No, my yoga teacher does them. I know the one you mean. But you make no noise. You kind of go, ahhhh. And so it's a bit like screaming.

A silent scream. A silent scream and in that moment of I can't actually scream because my kids might be alarmed it actually does work. I do wonder if we all had been more just more loud more like shouty more laughy out there, whether they'd have got used to it. You know, one of the things was that you have to be so quiet around babies, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. Isn't it? Yeah, until you have number two, and number one spends the whole time screaming in their ear, poke, or in your case, with twins, surely they just screamed at each other.

They did, they did, they did. Like Jennifer you touched on how anger is judged very differently depending on who's expressing it. Can you talk a little bit about how race, class and age affects how women's anger is received? Yes, wow. I mean I think it's really complicated because it's a bit like all these things intersect at various points. Like also depending on where that woman is, like literally in her environment, like is she at work? Is she with her mum? It's impossible to sort of say, broadly speaking, this group struggles in this way with anger or this group finds it hard to express this specific thing. I think it's really

really individual and it's really really lifetime specific and there's definitely kind of let's say patterns and themes like I would say for age like I don't know whether you guys have experienced this but I do think you kind of hit a point where you just go no don't care just don't care just gonna say it like the kind of things I find myself saying in a queue at the bank now to somebody I just It's not aggressive but it is just like saying what's happened. I'm just saying look you did just push in front of me and I was standing here so do you want to just go and stand behind me again now young man? There's no way I would have said anything like that to I don't know even 10 years ago. So I do think there are

definitely like moments in our lives where you go, oh this is liberating, I'm just gonna go for it. On that, because it's interesting, because I'm definitely in my avoiding anger era and I would say I'm much more likely just to let that go and I've been very much like interested in the Mel Robbins let them theory recently. Oh yeah, I don't really under- tell me more about this. So well I guess if you're in the queue and someone jumps in front of you, you'd be like ugh let them. I'm not gonna turn this into a negative experience that might last, like live, like you know, stay with me for the whole morning. Just let them. Okay, that's interesting, but what I would say is that at a deep level, your body will have registered what just happened.

And my worry and what I've noticed in women is that those aggregate little moments, I think that's what we've always done, the let them thing. I don't think that's news. I think that's what we've done. And I'm saying, nah, that's not really helped us. It all builds up. It builds. And comes back.

Yeah. So what can we do with that though? What can you, you know, we've talked about you having the change to be able to say, excuse me, I was in the queue first, but there must be more powerful things that women have created and changed because they've let themselves get mad? Well I guess if I think about the like the community, the book I've written which I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have dared write this book in my 20s like as if you know you have because you you can't say this stuff out loud and the and I think this is why it did hit a nerve actually

is because so many women have read it and gone, oh yeah, maybe we can. And what does this mean for my life? Like if I'm allowed to say it. So if you'd said to your husband just at the time, oh, could you get the milk when you're out? Imagine how much energy you'd have had left, I mean, not when you've got a tiny baby, we don't have energy then, but later on if that had been a

precedent that had been set and that had continued in all the various little ways like throughout your marriage, then how much more energy would there have been for you to get on with, I don't know, going for a promotion or like starting a podcast or whatever it is. Every woman has examples in her life I think of where there is potentially a crossroads and I think that from the messages I've received back women are finding this book is potentially that for them. A moment where they go oh yeah you know what I'm not going to do that anymore I'm stopping and then what happens then what's available to them yeah that makes a lot of sense you've talked about anger being a kind of a GPS for the soul can you explain what that means like how can we use anger to guide us like guide our

decisions rather than kind of I guess be scared of it yeah that's such a good question because I think we do think of it as being negative, like net negative basically don't we? But I think we have to kind of give it a bit of a sort of PR makeover because it's not negative, it's just a cue, it's just telling us that something about this situation needs to change and that's where the kind of GPS idea comes in. It's a steering tool. It can help you think hmm actually what is it about this situation I'm in that hasn't been working for me and what could look different about it and I think that's

the positive sort of fuel for change that we need to take from it and also when you think about things like activism it's often with a real kind of joy that the the most successful you know initiatives have got going it's like yeah this needs to change but we're not gonna go about it in a sort of really ranty and kind of negative way. We're going to just decide we're moving forward as like joyful warriors and we're doing this together and it's going to look different. We've decided this is going to look different and that's what Women Are Mad was all about and I think it's sort of, yeah it's definitely like gained its own momentum. So if someone has listened to this, us three being slightly ranty and

mad and they want to, they feel oh god that's me and they want to start unpicking that hidden anger, what are some gentle first steps they can take? I think asking questions. It's a bit like actually Alison you were saying with your daughter, like you stopped yourself and thought hmm maybe I should give some different answers here than I normally would. So you start searching around your own brain like for the first time in this in this kind of zone of oh imagine if imagine if I gave myself permission to challenge something that I've always done the same way and the other people always expect me to do so if you're always going to get the your parents

shopping why don't you see if a sibling can do it this time if you're always the one that takes them to their hospital appointments why don't you see if a sibling can do it this time? If you're always the one that takes them to their hospital appointments, why don't you see if they can use a taxi this time? Like just little tiny. And what's hard is that we then feel like we have to apologize. We feel like we have to have reasons for it. We don't have to.

Oh gosh, we could do a whole nother podcast on sorry. Oh geez. Oh, I'm a bear for that other podcast on sorry. Oh, geez. I'm not there for that. I tell you, like you could because this is what we spend again, our energy on. We feel so bad. Like at the weekend, I had a similar thing where a family member was like going to be really local, but they hadn't given me much warning.

And I felt so bad that I said, I'm really sorry. It's going to be really local but they hadn't given me much warning and I felt so bad that I said I'm really sorry it's going to be difficult. I just because you always could couldn't you? You could kind of break your leg to get there but I'm really trying in my life now not to do that and to decide no I've got to you know I've got a week ahead with all this in it. I've got to be sensible. I know how much energy I have. I'm going to decide to not push myself all the time. And I think that's what women like generally are quite bad at is going, no, this is my limit.

Yeah, I spoke to my confidence expert yesterday and she sent me the challenge of not saying sorry for 24 hours and I found it really hard. Like I just, it really made me think of how often my instinct was just to be like, oh sorry, sorry, oh sorry. But yeah. Someone's challenged me that I could never start

another email with sorry. So if you'll reply, even if someone sends you, can you do the meeting at two? Sorry, no. Actually, no,, can you do the meeting at two? Sorry, no. Actually, no, I can't do two. Fact. So don't say sorry. It's a fact.

That's true, yeah. Oh, it was so, I nearly combusted. It was so hard. Even if someone's like emailed me twice and I haven't managed to respond, I no longer apologize. Yes, you respond with sorry. I don't, I always now say, thank you for your patience waiting to hear back from me or thank you for following up again.

I'm like, I'm trying to eradicate the sorry. Oh, be more Alison. I like this. That's really good. Did you ever see that like little meme that went round that was a woman writing an email and then she and then she had to scratch it and do it in the form of a man doing it. And it was literally three words. By the time the man had done it, it was three words long. And hers had been like a massive paragraph. I think we should all challenge ourselves in that way. I think so. Well, Jennifer, this has been absolutely wonderful to chat to you. So thank you so much for joining us and coming to chat to us at Netmums. Such a pleasure. I've loved every second of it.

Thank you, Jennifer. If you could just come and move in, that would be fun. Yes. Okay. That would be awesome. Lovely. I'd be delighted. Don't forget you can get in touch with us on all social channels, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, just type in Netmums and you'll find us. And if you liked what you've heard today, we'd love for you to give us a five star rating. Press the follow button and share the podcast on all your socials.