The Netmums Podcast - S16 Ep8: Firm, fun And flexible parenting: Kate Silverton on emotional regulation for children

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

This episode of The Netmums Podcast features the incredible Kate Silverton, a former BBC news anchor turned child counsellor and advocate for compassionate parenting. Kate, Wendy and Alison unpack the crucial parenting topic of how to help our children regulate their emotions. The conversation covers: - The Impact of Labels: how terms like "naughty" can shape a child's identity, and why we should focus on behaviours rather than personal attributes. - Understanding Emotional Responses: the importance of recognising our own emotional triggers as parents and how these can affect our responses to our children's feelings. - The SAS Method: Kate introduces her SAS method for managing children's emotional outbursts, emphasising the need to 'See, Acknowledge, and Soothe' to help children regulate their emotions effectively. - Navigating Tantrums: practical strategies for parents to support children through moments of distress. - Rupture and Repair: how acknowledging mistakes can strengthen the parent-child bond. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums  Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollich and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show… Labels are not who our children are. So we might say, I didn't like that behaviour, you know, but it's not I don't like who you are and that's really important. So that sort of naughty label and it's just a fallacy to call children naughty. Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Netmums podcast.

Wendy, how are you doing this week? I think I have reached that age where my teen knows more about tech than I do. And it's depressing me because I've spent 20 years knowing more about tech than my dad. And now she's, she takes my phone off me and does this kind of passag, ugh, and swipes away. We probably could have done with her actually because we've had tech issues galore

getting this lovely guest on. Maybe we should have had Chloe on the pod. Pass aggressively, swiping. Your teen or my teen who does this amazing thing where she teensplains tech to me and I just have no tolerance for it whatsoever. But anyway, let's introduce our amazing guest while we have her and the tech is on our side. Our guest today is someone whose voice and wisdom has helped thousands of parents feel calmer, more confident and more connected

to their children. You will know Kate Silverton as a former BBC News anchor, but in recent years she's become one of the UK's leading voices in child psychology and mental health. Kate has retrained as a child counsellor and she's a passionate advocate for evidence-based, compassionate parenting. Her best-selling books, There's No Such Thing as Naughty and There's Still No Such Thing as Naughty, introduced parents to the science of children's brains and emotions, giving practical tools to support emotional regulation and connection. Welcome, Kate,

to the Netmums podcast. Thank you very much. What a lovely introduction. Thank you. And after all of our tech, it's such a pleasure to have you here. I know. I know we're going to be talking about the stress response. We're all kind of, we all need to regulate ourselves before even beginning. It's like, who am I? Where am I? I'm just so pleased to be here because we didn't manage it earlier, but we have now. So we're all feeling like we've climbed a mountain and here we are. And how are you today? You've recently moved to the countryside, haven't you? So have you been enjoying the great outdoors in this lovely weather? You know, it was making me

giggle slightly. I'm glad you've asked that question because I've had the most lovely morning. I have been for a walk with my new mum friends and so we've done this amazing walk, which I call the bear walk and we just go around this lovely. So I've had this lovely sort of filling of my cup with chatting about all things sundry with, you know, new relationships and online dating. Not me, I hasten to add, but you know, the stuff that is really important to discuss among your girlfriends. Then I came back and I have two wonderful elderly neighbours, both of whom have got partners who are very poorly at the moment. And I thought my mum was going to be here. So I invited everybody over. My mum sadly couldn't be here.

So my neighbours came and we all had tea and cake in the garden. And I just thought, this is what it's about actually, not to sort of paint this sort of idyllic, and then the chicken stuff arrived, which is another conversation. But I was hosting a conference in Glasgow last week called The Biology of Belonging. And with all these incredible big names, Dan Siegel, Gordon Ufelt, you know, all these incredible people working, Dasha Navaiz, if people know her,

she wrote the book The Evolved Nest. And the theme of the conference, as the name implies, the biology of belonging, we talked so much about the power of community, we talked so much about the power of community, especially for parents. And I often have parents, sorry, I've just dived straight in here, haven't I? Dive away. We love it. But the science even shows us that we need that community if we are to thrive. And a

lot of parents, you know, we all can beat ourselves up a lot of the time thinking I'm failing, you know, why am I stressed? It's, well, it's because we have come, we've sort of come quite a long way from that lovely community sense. We need that sort of vertical environment where we have grandparents and elders and neighbors, and then our kids have sort of adolescents,

older kids, younger kids all around us. That's, and it makes parenting so much easier when we do have that. So anyway, I've been a little bit tickled this today to be living what I kind of dreamed would happen when we moved from London. And it's been a long time in the sort of creation. My husband wasn't keen on leaving initially

but we're just so glad that we have. And, you know, I know how lucky we are to have achieved it. That's so lovely. Now, having two children yourself, you know firsthand that kids' emotions can be one of the most challenging things to deal with. I've trained myself out of ever saying, stop crying, but it can still be quite tempting to distract my children. I've got three kids, and trying to distract them from their feelings, if they're having a tantrum or they're getting really upset about something that I consider to be quite minor and silly. Obviously it's not to them. Tell us about the SAS method and why that works. I'd love to go into that, the distraction, Alison. Yes, do. Because it's really understanding what we're not,

I'm just trying to think what you just said. It was along the lines of sort of distracting them from feeling. Exactly, which I know is the wrong thing to do, but in the moment, when I'm having a response to their emotions because of all of the stuff that I grew up having to suppress, I mean, this is turning into a bit of a therapy session,

sorry, Wendy. So when I'm reacting to it, my initial instinct is to just distract and stop them from reacting the way they are. But I know that's the wrong thing to do. So I know that letting them feel their feelings is the healthiest reaction. Yeah. But you've just pinpointed exactly what so many of us will find hard because, as you say, it can trigger feelings within us. And that's the trick, that's where we start, even before getting to SAS, which we'll get on to.

But it's really being able to reflect in a really compassionate way. When we say wrong, actually, let's change that just to understandable. If we had parents who didn't, who had difficulty allowing us to feel, oh, come on now, there she goes with the water. I mean, my dad used to do it. We used to get that. There she goes again with the water. Yeah. Come on now, stop it. All of those voices

and bless our parents, you know, if there's no blaming or shaming in this because we only parent so often in a way that we've been parented. So it's bringing that awareness first and foremost, knowing that you're not alone, knowing that you're not wrong and that we can always repair. But as you say, Alison, it's really important that we are able to sit with kind of, OK, what is it that I'm not comfortable with here?, it's really important that we are able to sit with kind of, okay, what is it that I'm not comfortable with here?

Because it's my stuff. I'm not comfortable. One, it can feel really painful. When our children are in distress, it can feel really painful. We don't want our children to be crying because who wants that? So that's the first thing is to just bring some awareness to that. And secondly, there is that real quick instinct of like, oh, shut, you know, shut, shut it down, you know, don't be silly. And that's obviously the stuff that

we've inherited. So first of all, bring the awareness, understand that you're not alone and that you're not a bad parent. It's just how are we supposed to know this stuff if we haven't had that lesson, you know, if we haven't had that ourselves. And then when we can do that, even just taking a pause, just in that moment, and this is why I find that with the books, the description, as I use it, that sort of metaphor of the lizard, the baboon, the wise owl, is really bringing an awareness that when our children are in distress,

it can trigger our own baboon, our own stress response. And that's what makes us, it can feel a bit uncomfortable. So we want to shut that down. So what we have to get really practiced at is feeling the distress, even when we're in the middle of, you know, Sainsbury's or Tesco's and our children are kind of like on the floor, you know, banging their fists, is to take a pause and take a pause, take a breath, and that can be enough for us to engage our prefrontal cortex, our what I call the wise owl, and then we can go into SAS. So I can talk you through that, but it's really important to know that we have to regulate ourselves before we can regulate our children, because if I'm in baboon, a stress response,

it's really nigh on impossible to bring our children back to a sense of regulation. So before you tell us about SAS, I'd like to know a trick, a tip for doing that regulation in the heat of the moment. A hack, a hack that we can all use. I'm not very good at that, if we're honest. And so what is that kind of... you say that we children co-regulate and our calm is their calm and I'm not sure that my calm is very often there.

So how do we do that regulation in the heat of the moment? The first then is the awareness. So thinking of it that our stress response, which is that trigger, that sort of the surge of cortisol and adrenaline that we get when our kids are sort of, you know, pushing our buttons, is just to recognise that that's a stress response. That's normal, it's human. And I think wrong with you, you're not a bad parent, we all lose our rag. I was going to say something else're not a bad parent. We all lose our rag. I was going to say something else. We all lose our rag and can lose our rag. That is to forgive ourselves in that moment. Because very often we can then go into a cycle of blaming ourselves

and thinking we're rubbish. And that doesn't help anybody. So just recognise, as you've just said, Wendy, yeah, I can, when my child's doing this. Now it's really helpful to also recognize, and I talk about this in the book a lot, in the second book, you might have a different trigger to me. Now my husband would find it and finds it really difficult still if the kids are not listening to him. Now, when you can go into that and think, so when I can explore, now he and I have done this because we've both done our work, you know, personal work, but so for him, he wasn't heard as a child.

He wasn't listened to. So if he's not listened to now as an adult, it can feel really enraging because it's triggering that old wound in therapy speak. Now for me, that's for me, it's different. If I turn up at the school gate and I'm bringing my kids a nice snack and I'm all excited to see them and I get that stony face, now I can feel a trigger because my attachment style is avoidant or was avoidant, I should say. Going into more therapy speak, but actually, so for me, if I felt rejected as a child,

now as an adult, I can be mindful that if I feel rejected, I can go into a little bit like, right, fine, whatevs. Whereas actually, I can override that once I recognize that in myself and think it's not about you, Kate, they've had a bad day today, and I can stay compassionate and just think this is not about me. And that's where I talk about stop snot, snot personal. So our children's behavior, we can feel it as personal to us, you know,

Mike, when he's not listened to and he perceives it's about him or me, if I turn up at the school gate and I feel rejected, that's our stuff. So once I can get past that and think, all right, they've just had a bad day. Oh, damn, what have they, what's happened sweetheart? It looks like you've had a really bad day.

Tell me about it or whatever. So then I can go into compassion. Then they can dump on me. Yes, Mr. Smith said that I forgot my shoes and now I'm going to get a detention, whatever it might be. And then I can hold that space knowing it's not about me and my children, they can come in. So first then that awareness, what are my triggers? Where do I feel it really personally?

And then I can use my own wise-how to say to myself, do you know what is not about you in this moment? Now, once you've got that awareness, it becomes so much easier. The quick hack is to put your hat, if you're safe enough to do this, depending on how old your children are, but very often, let's, if you're safe enough to do this, if depending on how old your children are, but very often, let's just say you're turning up at the school gate and you're preparing yourself

for a difficult exchange or whatever it might be, put your palms over your eyes because that lovely, this is just if you're in the car or you've got somewhere where you're not going to feel seen and feel a bit silly doing it and you're safe to do it, put your hands over your face and just take a beautiful deep breath. And that is very soothing for your brain stem, for your nervous system, just a quick, quick reset. As I say, you've got to be safe to do it. And if you're in the middle of Tesco and your kids running right, you know, you might find it. But if you're at home and you're, you know, you're finding it stressful just before that baboon comes in,

you know, bounding baboon, just doing that one quick reset to press pause, stepping out of the room just for a second, if it's safe to do so, can be enough to then engage your prefrontal cortex, what I call the wise owl, to then come in with compassion. And that's when you're going to be regulating your child. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's so helpful. So now tell, do tell us about the SAS method and why, why it works so well.

So this, this sort of came about and I write the age my kids are at. So as a sort of a parent and having walked through this process, you can jolly well trust that the books are written by a parent for other time poor, stressed parents as well. So there's a lot of compassion in there. And this was after I collected Wilbur up from nursery and I'd taken him, I'd taken him an apple and he came out and it was a wild nursery so he came out in his little muddy suit and he was covered in mud and he took one look at me and I didn't want an orange, I wanted an apple, I wanted an orange and down on the floor in front of all the other parents, you know, fists in the mud. Oh dear lord. So my baboon comes up and out the gates because one, I'm embarrassed and shame is a really big trigger for all of us. You know, if you're in, what the hell am I going to do now? My kid's

in front of me now. And then I can go, right, I'm either going to grab him and, and, and, you know, sort of, right, that's just rude behavior. Come on, you know, and pick him up and take him to the car and have a big old fight where you're trying to get them in the car seat. No, that's not such a good idea. Do I shout at him to tell him to stop being… no, that's not a good idea. What else am I going to do? Do you know what? I'm going to get down there with him.

I'm going to get down there in the mud with him, you know, sod the trousers. And that's what I did. And I have that thought process. And the first S of SAS, so when you're in an emergency situation, you know, SAS, it calls for calm, military precision. You get down with your child and you,

the first thing you're gonna do is say what you see or say what you sense. You are so cross right now, I can see. And you're gonna bring your energy up. Now this is where I think sometimes we think of sort of that calm, you know, gentle parenting. I'm not dissing gentle parenting, but when we think of the word gentle,

we might think that we go in with a, oh darling, I'm so sorry, you look like you're really upset. No, that's enraging to a child when they are in a dysregulated state, because they don't feel that you're attuning to them. They don't feel that they're really seen. They don't feel it, they have to feel it.

So it's less about the words that you're using with. They don't feel it. They have to feel it. So it's less about the words that you're using with your child in that moment and it's more about your body language and the energy. Wow, you are so cross right now. Mummy, daddy can see you. Oh yes, you are hitting the mud. I can see you. So what you're saying in that you have to use very few words, but it's the energy. I get it. You're so cross. Now, obviously in my head, I'm thinking, geez, I bought you an apple, not an orange. Like, come on, is it really that bad? But from a perspective of a therapist, I know. I'm thinking your doggy in the corner, no. I want him to play.

Yeah. Wanting my attention, wanting to be regulated as much as anybody else. Yeah, wanting my attention, wanting to be regulated as much as anybody else. So what I'm conveying in that first moment of SAS, I see you, I sense that something's going on for you right now that you're struggling with. So that's what you're doing. You're bringing your energy up to match your child. Now it might seem a bit silly, it might sound a bit silly and of course, Alison, if we haven't had parents as I never did, bless them, love them, but you know, they didn't do that so it can feel a bit like, really? Isn't that a bit patronising? No. What you're doing is you're conveying to your child in that moment, I get it. Oh, I think I get it. I'm not quite sure what it's about, but we'll get to that point. Now the A of SAS is acknowledge. Wow, you are so cross that mummy brought you an apple and not an orange. Oh. And in that moment, you can, you can sometimes use a little bit

of humor depending on the situation. And in that moment I bonked myself on the head with the apple, right? Cause it's kind of like break the spell. So it's not distraction. You're staying with the upset, but you can but you can use little tips and tools that I explained in the book. And I'm like, you wanted mummy to bring you an orange? Silly mummy. Oh my goodness. But you're acknowledging that they're really upset. And again, you're not endorsing this behaviour. You're not kind of going, yes, you're absolutely right, but we're talking about children with very young brains who don't have the capacity to regulate themselves just yet. This is the key with the neuroscience and the neurobiology that

I really want every parent to understand and that's why I explain the science. There's all science behind this. It's all evidence based. So say what you see or sense, acknowledge the upset. Wow, you are so cross because your brother's just knocked over your tower and you spent ages building that. Oh, sweetheart, I get it. Even if you feel that they're being jolly unreasonable at that point in time, even if they've hit their brother because they knocked over the tower, you're not going into punishment. You're going into acknowledge. I get that you're so cross right now. Now that's very calming for the part of the brain that I call the baboon, that used to

be called the limbic system, but we're sort of changing that language. So let's just stick with baboon, very visual, very simple. So your child's baboon then is going, ah, hmm, okay, she seems to be understanding that I'm very cross right now. And it's just enough for them to sort of, for the sort of that lovely sort of little bit of oxytocin going in going, oh, she seems to be wanting to be nice to me. I'm just going to listen to what she's saying because she's really seeming like she wants to help. And our children do want help in those moments.

It is frightening. It's overwhelming when our children are flooded with all of those stress hormones that happen when they've been hit, hurt, you know, whatever might be going on for them, and they don't have the prefrontal cortex fully developed to regulate themselves. So they are desperate for our help. But of course, that old school parenting has gone into naughty steps and goodness knows what else, which sadly is unhelpful because it just leaves the child sitting with all those stress hormones. So okay, so we've done, say what you see or sense, acknowledge the upset, even if it seems really ridiculous,

get it? And then we go into soothe because we get a little window then where we have a tune to our child and we're going, I get it darling, I know, he knocked over your tower and you spent such a long time, calm, calm, mommy can help or daddy can help. And again, I get that it can sound a little bit odd if we haven't had that ourselves. But trust me, when you try this for the first time, and I want you to override any sense of, oh, God, you know, this is just ridiculous. He's, you know, whatever. Just override all of that. Try it for me one time and I guarantee you will talk your little baboon down from his branch

in seconds. And it has to be, you need to try it to be believed. believed. My husband is old school, military, did not have a compassionate background. And initially he was of the school of Kate. You're going to be spoiling these kids. And I share lots of stories in the book where this happened time and again, because it will happen time and again. We now know that young children need help regulating their emotions every 20 seconds. Every 20 seconds. Okay, so this tells you how much they're struggling on a day to day with all the stuff

that goes on. They go to play school, they might get bonked on the head by somebody else, even if it's you know, by accident. Well, that's going to trigger a stress response. They need help to regulate again. So my husband and I were sort of parenting alongside and he's like, oh my God, that would have taken me hours. So it's when you see the proof is in the pudding, the proof's in the pudding. So when you try it and it works, you kind of, you don't almost need to

know how it's working. I mean, I like for parents to understand it, but you see it and the bond that grows between you and your child or result is so strong, that glue is so strong that they'll start to come to you. It's not that they won't explode because they still will, right up until they're in their twenties when the prefrontal cortex finishes its development. But like my son now, he's 10 and he might come home and he might get really cross with his sister or whatever and he'll go, and he'll do that and the baboon comes out and he goes, I'm very sorry, I am very cross right now. So he's learning to self-regulate with a big deep breath. It's not that he doesn't get cross

and by the way, getting cross is normal and natural. We can all get cross and we've all got the right to be angry on occasion but it's how we express that anger, not by hitting somebody else or shouting, but by then taking a breath and then saying, actually, that wasn't okay. That's boundrying and that's healthy. And you mentioned the naughty step and kind of like the more old school approaches to parenting. Something that I struggle with is that if, you know, one of my girls does do something that they perhaps shouldn't you know reacting to anger in a way that isn't necessarily helpful and you know where we might have said go and sit on you know have a time out or whatever it is is knowing what the best alternative way of dealing with

that is because it's not just about them dealing with their emotions it's also about perhaps learning about consequences. And that's where I struggle to kind of get that balance right. What would you suggest? Yeah, I mean, if you want to give me an example, we can work with that. What I would say with consequences, we don't want consequences.

So the only consequences that I would ever have are, it's cold outside, let's get you a coat. And they go, no, I don't need it. Don't want to wear a coat. And I will then with my kids when they were younger go, okay, I might take the coat. But if they're then cold, that's a natural consequence. So that's a natural consequence. We don't want consequences like if you do that, I'm going to, you hit her, I'm going to hit you or whatever. And again, I have every understanding. We've all been there. So there's no blaming or shaming in this.

We can only do use the tools that we've been given, right? So you're asking for an alternative, which is great because we don't want our children hitting and hurting others. That's not okay. So my parenting, I would describe personally, my parenting is firm, but fun and flexible. So within the flexibility, there's a bit of flexibility, but it's firm

first and foremost. So I don't accept hitting and hurting. I do accept, however, that my children are going to make mistakes just as they will in the therapy room. So I talk a lot about contracting. So when my children were very young, what you want to do is get their behavior before it's happened. So we talk about, you know, not hitting and hurting. We don't hurt each other. If you're really, really cross, do you think you can show me by stomping your feet and then coming to mommy and showing me?

And then I use what I call pillow power. So this is with young children, but actually, to be fair, we all still use that now. I came back from school the other day and I was really, I was quite stressed that my husband works away a lot and the kids, my mommy, do you need to hit a pillow? I'm like, yeah, I do. So we all ended up hitting the pillow and talking about the things that had happened in our day. So recognizing one that our children will make mistakes. okay, so just the same that we wouldn't punish them for getting a spelling wrong or a maths sum wrong. We want to be able

to boundary. It's not okay sweetheart to hit your brother. It is not okay. But you don't have to punish for that lesson to get learned. In fact, what I would say is if we punish, we set a fracture up between us and our children and they're less likely to learn for next time. So because we're not modeling the behavior we want to see. So what we want to do is one, it's not okay to do that. I will not accept that sweetheart. It's not okay. And then I'm going to soothe both children. I mean, if you want to give me an example, it might be easier to get this across. But if we're talking about lashing out, just, just like my twins are just all forever hitting each other and pulling hair and it's just yeah, chaos.

And we don't want that and exactly. So we want to kind of, if that's happening a lot and the siblings, I mean siblings, especially with twins, there's a whole other sort of interview. So in terms of, you know, what's going on for siblings. So there's a real, I always say that on top of anger sits fear. And especially with sort of that sibling stuff, you are one resource and they are both really fighting, fighting for your attention. So it can be that it ends up where they're both fighting with each other. But it can also be something like I've got this bottle and my sibling wants it and they're baboon. And it is that sort of part of the brain that's not a thinking brain. It doesn't think it doesn't know about consequences. That part

of the brain, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed. So when you're looking at them, first and foremost, you're not looking at two fully formed humans. So they are going to make mistakes. And the part of their brain that's really at the forefront is a snatcher. Is a, I want that so I'm going to have it. Now of course we want our kids to play nice and to share but we've got to recognize first and foremost what we're expecting of them. So it's hard, it's really hard is the first thing. So they're going to make mistakes. Secondly, we might then want to sit down in the calm space and have a contract Do you know what girls I've really mummies really noticed?

I it makes me so upset when I see you hit each other and pull each other's hair. It's not okay my darlings It's really not okay you would you like it if mommy came and pulled your head You can you can use a little bit of humor in there. You're bringing them on board. I am teaching you something here. I am not punishing you. I'm getting you to start using that little bit of prefrontal cortex, the little owl that's just developing.

And I want you to start thinking. So you're gonna think, it's not okay. I'm gonna put the boundary in guys. And we can put that on a bit of paper. How might that look? Should we put, what should we do? And then my kids might put a big red cross through a hand. Yes, we are not hitting. But I also accept that if your sister is being a bit annoying and if she's just taken your bottle and you didn't want her to, yeah, you can hit. What can we hit instead? Hmm? You're gonna give them permission

Because the energy of anger is an energy our emotions are energy they drive us to act and If I'm fearful, you know mom loves her more than me or if I just want that bottle That anger has an energy and I'm using my fists because we go into that fight flight response and I am going to need that energy now in my fists, right? And I can't sit on that. So what we have to acknowledge with young children is we want to teach them to express their anger, but safely.

And for me, and again, this is in the first book, we used pillow power. So we give our children, we're going to boundary it, you're not to hit your sister, right? Really firm on that. But you can hit a pillow or they can choose what would you like, or you might throw, what can we throw safely? So I sometimes in the therapy room would get like quite weighted soft toys. So for charge really, really angry. And my job as a therapist is to bring that anger because you know, a lot of my clients will that's, that's well, it is all very healthy. So I talk about all our emotions are welcome here. But I need to give those children a safe way of expressing that anger because I don't want that. I'm not going to accept being here as a therapist. So we contract in the therapy

room. We can do this with our children. You don't hit me, sweetheart, but you can hit that. Oh, the joy of being given permission to get rid of this anger. And I'm going to pummel it. And then I'm going to get my children to, and I do it with my children or children in the therapy room. what are you angry about? I hate my sister, she's... And we're going to go with all of that. We're not going to start saying, we don't use hate. I mean, obviously now when my kids are older, you know, see, you've got to just, you know,

choose your wins at the moment. If your children are really young, they're going to hit the pillow and that lovely release. Oh, then the stress response comes right down in their bodies. They've released the anger. They've released the energy. Then we can go into soothe. Oh, my darling, I get well done. You know, you've did really, really well there. Then if they've done something like they have already pulled their sister's hair, we can then boundary again, but only when they've come back to balance, when they can hear you. You can't say it when they're in the middle of a release. It's impossible for their brain.

Their brain just won't. If your child is in fight flight, if they're on the floor crying, screaming, if they're under a table scared, you know, whatever it is, they can't hear you. They cannot hear words. They can feel you. You can talk them down with your presence as I've just been explaining with SAS. But they can't, they're not ready for a lesson just yet. They're not ready for a lecture. But when they're calm, sweetheart, I get it. We made it. You know, we don't want to be doing the hair pulling. Do you see how upset she is? Yes. Okay. What might we now do? What might we do together?

I need to say sorry. Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. So you're modeling that whole, it is not going to change overnight. We're expecting too much of our children if we expect them to get it right over just by the way, as we don't get it right as adults. So if we still lose our rag on occasion, you know, we might not be hair pulling,

but we still might wish that we'd behaved in a more appropriate way. Well, we might be tearing our own hair out. So you've called your books, There's No Such Thing as Naughty, and There's Still No Such Thing as Naughty. Why do you feel that naughty label, that message is such an important one?

Because our children are, they internalise every day. They're taking in messages from us, from their friends, from their teachers. And words carry such weight of meaning. Oh, stop being silly. Oh, you are so naughty. Oh, he's the naughty one. And we all fall into that trap. But our children are paying very close attention to how we think of them. And we might dismiss it as a comment, oh, he's so untidy or she's always late. She's a bit of a scatterbrain. They are internalizing and what they're internalizing because again, they don't have that

fully formed rational brain, I'm bad, I'm naughty. And then it becomes, that's me, that's who I am. And you may well end up with a child that then thinks, well, that's who I am, so I may as well just be that, you know, that's where sort of delinquency comes from. I'm the naughty one. I'm the bad one. I'm the scatty one. And actually labels are not who our children are. So we might say, I didn't like that behavior, you know, but it's not, I don't like who you are. And that's really important. So that sort of naughty label.

And it's just a fallacy to call children naughty. They're not making conscious choices for the majority of the time. They are driven by a very, very immature brain and a nervous system that very often is being triggered because they're coping with a lot during the day. So it's just, it's kind of, it's just not scientifically correct. It's not, it's just, as I say, it's a fallacy. And I'd really like to change that language. As you've already mentioned, we do all lose our rag from time to time. One of the most useful things that I've learned in recent years is that idea of rupture and repair. Can you explain what it is to anyone who might

not have come across it before and why the repair part is so crucial to healthy parenting? Lovely, thank you. So yes, let's accept that all of us, all of us will at some time or another do what we call in therapy rupture. And that is just that we all do, right? The vast, vast majority of us are doing a bloody good job. So it's really important to say we do a really, really good job. And Donald Winnicott, the great psychoanalyst, talked about the good enough parent. So it's really important to remember we only have to be good enough, right? We're going to make mistakes. More importantly, if we're perfect, and no one can be, that's actually not a great, because then

our children think, oh God, well, they're perfect, and I'm imperfect. So that's a sort of a mixed message. So the ruptures are actually, let's just think, if I'm really, really tired and the kids are sort of messing around and I really want them to get to bed and I might raise my boy, come on now, this is not okay. And whatever I might say in that moment and I can sort of see their faces and they're probably thinking, oh, we were having quite a nice time and mummy's just gone from that really fun mum to the fun sponge and that's not nice. So I might then go, actually, this is my stuff. I might go to the loo, go, okay, all right, it's fine.

And go back and go, guys, I'm really, really sorry. Mummy's just really tired tonight and I love sitting with you, but when you get silly in this really silly state, it's not okay. And I just want you to get to bed now and we can have a nice calm time. So what you're doing in that is you're repairing that little rupture. When your kids look at you and you see that they're scared, they're frightened of you, you've suddenly become this sort of unpredictable, a bit monstrous looking baboon. And there's a rupture in the relationship, even if it's for that split second and you think, oh, didn't I got that wrong? I didn't, you know, didn't like myself. And if we see ourselves in the mirror, it's not nice. So we want to repair that rupture and it isn't just saying, sorry, I'm sorry,

guys, I got that wrong. And what you're doing in that is you're modeling, I'm imperfect and I want to be better and I can say, I'm sorry. Because when I can say, I'm sorry, it's modeling that when you get things wrong, as you're going to do, you can say sorry. If we don't do that, guess what? Our kids are never going to say sorry. So it's there. So it's an, and, and what we now know is, is in the rupture and repair that the stronger the relationship builds, because our children kind of go, she's all right, she is, or he's all right, he is. He sort

of admits when he gets things wrong. And I can see that he really, you know, he cares when he's all right, he is, he sort of admits when he gets things wrong and I can see that he really, you know, he cares when he's talking to me. So it's a really important lesson for our children to sort of get and that we can repair, that relationships will rupture, you know, with friendships, but it's not the end of the world that we can come back, say sorry and do better next time. That's brilliant. Now you've spoken before about screen time from a neuroscience point of view. What do parents need to know about how screened effects our kids' brains and their emotional development? Okay, well, I mean, there's no question

that technology is shaping our children's brains and that's really important. It is shaping our children's brains. We talk about neurons that fire together, wire together. So your child's brain is still developing all the way up to and beyond actually, but into our 20s and sort of late 20s. So neurons that fire together, wire together. And so the opposite is true. So the more things, the more sort of repetition we have of good things, playing the piano or whatever, great. But if we just sat on a screen, then guess what? There's other things that are then not happening in the brain. So the British Psychological

Society, many societies now are just saying too much screen time for young children can unintentionally cause permanent damage to their still developing brains. So this is where our ability, our children's ability to focus, to concentrate, to sense other people's attitudes and to communicate and build a large vocabulary in life, all those abilities can be harmed. So it's really important for all of us. We are in the brain development business when we're raising children. So screens, and I know they have their uses. I do know that, obviously there are children that will really, but it's just being, you know, really be helped by screens. So I'm not, I'm not anti them completely, but I think we have to accept that

just as we will find it difficult very often to come off, I've got my phone here, who's far from their phone, that the more we do something, it's going to lead. And for our children, their brains are developing. So we want to make sure that it is proportionate, I guess. And I really, I mean, I think for very young children, I was on holiday recently and I still find it quite shocking. And it's not a judgment call. It's just the fact of when I see children in their prams or at dinner with a screen propped up. And I just want to say to parents, actually, you're setting yourself up for a more difficult time later, further down the line, because your child is then gonna be wedded to that screen

and it's gonna make your life more difficult. I get that it might feel easier now because you want an easier time at dinner time, but actually taking some crayons and a pad is gonna serve you much better in the long run because your child's brain is gonna, your child is gonna actually be able to cope with boredom. And that's actually very good for children to sort of sit with

and not be so wedded to a screen. So it's just, I think if the more information parents can get for themselves, everyone's got to do what's right for them. But the more information we have, I think it's really clear now that we need to be really, really mindful of how much screen time our children clear now that we need to be really, really mindful of how much screen time our children are having. So finally, Kate, there's been so many of your answers today where I wish we had a second podcast because I've wanted to ask you to refer them back to teenagers. As a mum of a 13-year-old, there's been so many answers where I can see that you're talking about younger children and I know that there will be a fabulous

answer about a teenager. So my question is, when are you going to write me a book for teenagers, seeing as you're about to enter the teenage years? Yes! Please! Well, I'm with you. Yeah, well, I'm starting. I mean, I'm like, oh my goodness, my publisher just called me and I said, I said I wouldn't do it till the children were older. And she said, please, please, please. So actually, I've come up with quite an interesting one. I probably can't share And she said, please, please, please. So actually, I've come up with quite an interesting one. I probably can't share it right now, but it is, it will help us with our teens. And also, because I think sometimes it's really easy. Look, I've had years of training, you know, a lot of experience. And I think what I'm always about is, how can I help?

So if it's like scripting or the conversations that we should be having with our teens, so I am, I'm on the case. Thank you. And also to say that everything in the books does apply to our teens as well. In fact, it applies to our adult relationships as well. I don't doubt it. So that kind of, I did something on Instagram actually just the other day when Clemency had come home. I don't talk about my kids now that they're a bit older, I'm very careful, but she won't mind this. But when they come out of school and you do get that face, and I did this thing on Instagram and everyone's like, oh my God. So she's 13 now. And of course I had to fight

that inner like, and it does can take a little bit longer with your teen as you'll know of, you know, everything okay. Did you have a code? And sometimes I use a code red, you know, no, I'm fine. I'm just gonna go and speak to my friend. Okay, fine, I'm here sweetheart. And you've got to hold, and I talk about, hold it. Hold the line, hold the line, hold the line.

And I have to remind myself, hold the bloody line, because I'm triggered inside and I'm, you know, I will boundary it and I will say, sweetheart, I can see that you've had a difficult day and I'm here, but you won't be rude to me. I am, you know, I'm firm on that. Yeah, children, it's not, they can project, they can dump all our rubbish,

because we're their safe space and they know that we're not going to run away or not talk to them or whatever. I get that, but actually I also will throw in a lob in a little boundary. And then she'll look at me and then she'll be like, okay, I just need a bit of a minute. Because our older kids might well need a little bit more of a minute. And I'm like, that's fine. Of course, sweetheart, when you're ready, I'm here. You know that. And then it took about, I don't know, it was actually five minutes or something. She came down, she went, can we talk tonight? Yeah, we can. And I think so with our teams, it's just working with them because we want to give them some agency and autonomy to start using that prefrontal cortex so that they can start figuring things out.

But what we're saying is, I'm here, I'm still here. So I can hold that space, I can hold the line, even though inside I'm like, but actually, you can boundary the behavior, but just be aware that you wanna do it gently because you don't wanna trigger a massive, I know. You've made your- Well, they make you keep semper buis,

don't they? So you've gotta I know, you know, you're not able to. So you've got to go get it. Yeah, exactly. And actually, the other thing is sitting alongside. So with Clemence, you sort of just sitting alongside. So you're offering your presence. Yes. And if they then get up and walk away, that's fine. But it's just saying, I'm here.

And you can do that without words. And the other just final tip that I would give is don't worry about getting things wrong. Again, it's less in what we say and more in how we're helping our children that sense of how we want them to feel, as in, I'm here for you. And it's a bit like what I call lighthouse love, of, you know, I'm the lighthouse, the light is coming out, you might be in the sea and you might be bobbing around right now and not knowing which way is up. And you might be a bit far from me, you know,

in terms of your, as a teenager, you might be a bit, but my light is always gonna be there and it's gonna guide you home. I love that. And I think as long as your kids have sort of got that sense, they need us more than ever as you both know. And it's normally that cuddling up at night, which we'll still have, sitting alongside in a car journey

when you're not sort of looking at each other full on, that you'll find that those conversations open up. I'm looking at the time, because I know we've got to stop, but yeah. That's when there's... Hey, we could talk to you all day, honestly. Thank you. And I personally can't wait

for your teen book so i'm going to be pre-ordering it whenever whenever it's available so thank you so much for chatting to us today on the netmums podcast kate lovely to see you thank you very much thanks for joining us kate don't forget you can get in touch with us on all social channels instagram facebook tiktok just type in netmums and you'll find us. And if you liked what you've heard today, we'd love for you to give us a five star rating. Press the follow button and share the podcast on all your socials.