The Netmums Podcast - S17 Ep11: Witching Hour Warriors: Real solutions for parents with Dr. Punam and Sarah Joy Owen

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

In this sponsored episode of the Netmums podcast with Johnson's Baby, we tackle the “Witching Hour” - that notorious time of day when babies seem to be at their crankiest. Wendy Golledge is joined by experts Dr. Punam Krishan, GP, author, and Strictly star, and Sarah Joy Owen, an NHS midwife and mum of three, to share practical strategies and advice for parents.

Hello, hello, welcome to a special sponsored episode of the Netmum's podcast with Johnson's Baby. Now, this episode is entitled Witching Hour Warriors, which might give you a clue as to what we're talking about, the witching hour, which sadly doesn't last just an hour despite its name. And as most parents are all too aware, the witching hour is that time typically in the late afternoon, early evening, when young babies, are just plain cranky. They cry more, they fuss more, they're overtired, they're overstimulated, and they're nigh on impossible to settle. And it's at that point of the day when we all feel at the end of our tether two and want to cry more and fuss more. So it's not a good combination. If you've got a young baby and 5 to 9pm makes you want to cry into a cold cup of tea, you're not the only one, it's a frankly bewildering phrase. And if you're in the midst of it,

can leave you feeling overwhelmed and wondering what exactly is going on. And more importantly, if it'll ever end. Today, we have got the gold standard with us. Two experts who are pros when it comes to getting through the witching hour as unscathed as it's possible to be. Dr Poonam-Krishan is a GP, a media medic, a BBC Morning Live resident doctor and author of three children's books. Plus, she's a mum of two, who are now 12 and 5, and of course we all all know her from her stintonstrictly come dancing. Sarah Joy Owen is an NHS midwife and a mum of three. She works in the award-winning birth centre at University Hospital Lewisham in south-east London and has been a midwife for seven years. Sarah works in the midwifery-led unit which offers a home

from home space to give birth and she's also a part-time clinical teacher at King's College London where she helps to train future midwives. So thank you for joining us ladies. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us. It's lovely to be here. So now we've got our experts, let's get cracking with the podcast, we're going to hear there are some real-life dilemmas that we've had sent in from parents who are in the thick of it, and we're going to chat about their problems and break down some solutions with you ladies. So our first mum's dilemma is, my baby is six weeks old and gets really grumpy and unsettles every day at 5pm after her bottle. The problem is that the time she's having her meltdown is exactly the same time,

I'm trying to cook dinner and spend time with my five-year-old son. I feel so sorry for him because it's really hard to get him in the bath and get into bed when the baby's just screaming and screaming and nothing seems to work. What can I do? So Sarah, let's come to you first. There's mum guilt, there's baby overload, there's tea times, there's bath times. What does she do? Well, first of all, don't feel guilty.

We all know that mum guilt is an absolute killer, but you're going to feel guilty whatever you do. So try to do something that works for you and your little boy and the baby as well. It can be really helpful to have some kind of routine. If your baby's taking a bottle, perhaps your partner could give a bottle while you sort out the five-year-old or they help with a five-year-old while you do the bottle. Bathing the two children together, they don't even have to be in the same bath, but at the same time can be really helpful for bonding as well. and it can, if you're five-year-olds already in that routine, that can really, really help.

But it's awful. We've all been there. It's sensory overload for everybody. And it's okay to feel frustration at this point because it's incredibly frustrating. But it's that part of the day, isn't it? When as a mum, you are on your knees, you've been up early, probably. Yes. Everyone's had a big day. Your five-year-old, if they're at school, is also on their knees. It's just kind of like a melting point for everybody, isn't it? It is. If you can divide and conquer, do that.

If you can prep ahead, I know that sounds much easier to do, to say than it is actually to do all the time. But if you can prep ahead, that's really helpful as well. None of us are at our best when we're tired or hungry. So if people could, people, anybody involved in this situation could be fed before bedtime or bath time, that will help as well. But it's just some days are going to be easier than others. But whatever you can do to try and prep and create a routine will definitely help because then everybody knows in what older things happen and it can really help sort of manage everybody's expectations.

Even the baby. Babies are quite good, I think, at getting into a routine very quickly. So Dr Poonam, what are those strategies, those quick strategies that keep things a little bit calm? You know, I think that it's important to first say that what works for one family will never work for another family. And I think that one of the biggest issues that we have is, whilst it's lovely taking advice from fellow parents and reading the books, you've really got to tailor it to your home and what your family's needs are. And I think

it's six weeks, it's tricky. Your baby is learning to adapt in a brand new world. You know, they still seek that connection with mum and they seek that closeness. And of course, 5 to 9 p.m. As a mum, I can tell you that those are the errors where just as a human you are done in, let alone being needed so much by a newborn, your body is still trying to adapt as well and adjust to all these changes. And then you've got a five-year-old. We've talked about that mum guilt. I think the first thing to say is just to establish that there isn't anything else untoward going on.

Of course, that witching error is real for most babies in those first few weeks, but just ensure that there isn't any concerns about things like reflux or close. Collic. Carrying your baby on you is a great tip. I think that the sling is often a mother's best friend or if you've got family on board that are happy to sling the baby. That way the baby's got that close connection. I think try and have five minutes with your five-year-old before that evening kickoff starts just to try and settle calm and reassure the elder child that actually you've got them and try and see if they're willing to come on board to give you that help as well. Older kids love helping with babies. I love the idea of bathing them together,

of trying to do as much as you can with yourselves as a unit. If you have got external help, never feel ashamed of getting that external help. We're always very worried about asking somebody else to come in. If you've got a partner on the scene, if you've got a friend, if you've got a granny or grandpa, you know, especially in the evenings, just be like, can you come and help me? If it's not with the baby, can you drop off some dinner? Can you come and do my laundry? Can you do anything that will just help me in those few hours to be emotionally available for my children while still staying myself. So you both mentioned routines there, but I remember from when my daughters were tiny,

that sheer volume of information out there, and I was already overwhelmed and I was already tired. It's so hard to know what routines might actually work and to have the confidence to discard the ones that aren't working and to know when to do so. I think the moment I even thought the words, bath, book, bottle, bed, my daughter started screaming. I think she knew that she didn't want to do it, but I persisted and persisted. So, Dr. Poonam, I wanted to talk to you because Johnson's babies created a really cool way to cut through the noise and combat that with their Soothing Sound Spotify playlist. And, oh, my God, I wish this had been around 14 years ago. Can you please tell me about the playlist and how it's going to magically help?

it is a very dreamy playlist and I wish it was around when my babies were born it's a white noise playlist that's been created carefully curated by music producers and and parents themselves and the idea is just to kind of help in that essential witching our stage to calm the baby now the baby will be used to having been in utero to that kind of constant humming white noise and so actually having a soothing playlist on in the background to help can really make a difference. Now, I think that the big thing is not to get held up on routines and be so rigid that actually end up stressing you out. It is impossible to have a fixed routine with a newborn and other chaos going on in the family. So be

malleable. Babies actually respond to gentle patterns. So try and use similar things. So for example, scents are very important. You know, babies respond much more to familiarity. So if it's, for example, products, if you are doing baby massage, if you are in the back, try and use the same sense and repeat that over and over again. With the soothing sounds playlist, for example, have that on around a similar time in the background at the same volume every single day. And babies respond to those patterns, which can actually be helpful, rather than going, right, 5 o'clock we're doing this, 5.30 p.m. we're doing this, 6.00,

and it's not going to plan, and then all hell breaks loose. As well as the playlist, the Johnson's baby bedtime range is perfect for evening wind zones. The range is the parenting gold standard. My oldest is 14 and it was around when she was a baby and I bet it was around when your kids were small too, ladies. It's got soothing natural carmescences, which is a blend of relaxing aromas and the range supports the soothing bedtime routine to help your little one relax, unwind and all being well, drift off more easily. It's smelly so evocative, isn't it? And the doctor's absolutely right. Babies, young children, they respond really well to smells, to sounds. We all do. We all know that babies can hear not just the white noise of your body when they're in the room, but also music. Studies show that babies recognise songs. And we ourselves, we hear a song, we smell a smell, and we're transported back. And it's really, when we talk about routines, it's exactly that. It's those familiarity. the same smells, especially, you know, smells that have been curated to be soothing.

So how long, if there's a parent listening who's kind of at their wits end with this routine business, how long do you have to stick at it for your baby to kind of start understanding? Is it, and how long is a piece of string? It's how long is a piece of string. Six weeks is quite a crucial time in baby's development. There's various stages where their brains develop. up much more quickly than their bodies and it can kind of reset things and you just feel you've got things cracked and then you'll have a sleep regression or a brain search development

and it can really throw things and so you have to be flexible you know the world is not going to collapse if your children aren't bathed every night or they don't get three full books read to them every night you have to work with what's going to work with you some days it's going go like clockwork other days it's not so much and you have to be flexible and work with them and we're no different as adults are we sometimes we just think do you know what I don't want a big dinner tonight I just want a cup of tea and some toast and we're happy with that and an early night and children are no different and we have to work with them as long as you've got it's it's as soothing as you can make it you've got songs are really good the same songs it's all about

brain connection and um recognition of patterns smells are really good even if you haven't got time to have a big bath, you could just maybe just give them a little wash down with some warm water and a bit of product in the water. So you've still got that smell and they're clean and feeling fresh before bed. But it's really difficult to know. But I have to say that the more you persist with similar things, the easier it will become for those to become habit. And you'll find, you'll see this sort of the recognition in your children's faces, even babies when they hear a song or a smell and that will just help hopefully ease a bit

and the witching hour doesn't last forever, I promise, even though it feels like it does. It just changes. So let's go on to our next parents' dilemma. This mum says that my four-month-old has always hated bath time. I used to put her in the baby bath, but she screams the moment the water touched her skin. We're now trying the big bath,

but she still screams as soon as she gets wet. advice would be great. I really want to enjoy bath time with her. So Dr. Poonam, first let's come to you. What can this family do to try and stop the bedtime, bath time screaming? Yeah, I think it's important. You know, I say this with all my patients, I say this to fellow parents, is always trying to get to the root cause of where this fear or almost conflict is coming, you know, is something happened, it's trying to understand, you know, why don't you like bath time? And it's hard with a four month old, you're not going to, you know, they won't be able to

communicate with you. But I think just trying to be able to read your baby and not just kind of going in with what you think that every other baby is doing will work for your baby too. And remember things like baby massage, you can do a little top and tail. You don't necessarily need to put them into the water. So you can start with just kind of, you know, with cotton swabs and water and just seeing how they respond to that, swaddle them, try and get into the bath with them. and maybe that's another way where they just feel safe and secure because it's quite scary.

You've just been put into the bath on your own and quite a big space. I think that you can swaddle them in and make sure that the bathroom is warm rather than a cold. You know, suddenly all your clothes are taken off and you're absolutely Baltic. That would make me cry. So, you know, so you want to just kind of do little techniques like that and then hopefully easing the baby into the bath. And as we're talking, you know, products are really essential. we were chatting about the Johnson's baby products, which I remember as a child using,

the nostalgia is real, but it's a real comforting smell. And actually, having those in and around and using that every day, that familiar cue will become a comfort blanket for them as well. So I think consistency is key. Going gentle, they don't get a full-on bath every day.

You know, it's not the end of the world, but what you don't want to be doing is exacerbating that pattern where the baby's going to scream but you're then just going to force them into the bath and then you've had a terrible time. This is meant to be the wonderful relaxing time of the day. Everyone says, don't they? I'll give them a bath that will calm them down. It must be so hard if that actually is a stress point. And the baby's like, I don't like this. Anything to add, Sarah? I retry the baby bath. Babies quite like to be held securely and tightly. Even at four

months old, they probably still remember that comfort of being quite squished and squashed in the woman being held safely. So a smaller bath might be an issue. Also, don't forget, baths and bathrooms can be quite loud spaces. You've got tiles, you've got hard baths. It might be that it's a bit echoing, loud for the baby, and it's not the kind of sound that they used to. So you could try playing some music in the bathroom or maybe putting the baby bath on the bathroom floor rather than in the bath so you don't get that kind of echoy, cavey effect. Bath times don't have to be long either. You can just quick dip in and out. Or if you want, as the doctor said, what you could try perhaps is putting the baby in the bath with no water and

then just wiping them and giving them a little wash down so they're in the bath, but they're not submerged in the water. And take it slowly and also just take it easy on yourself as well. If your baby's really hating the bath, don't worry about it. Stop it. for a while, have a little think about what it is that's making them upset and start again with a new routine or a new way of doing bedtime and bath time that works for you both. Well, something someone once told me when my babies were small also is maybe do bath time at a different time. Maybe it doesn't have to be part of the bedtime routine. Maybe you have a bath at three in the afternoon and then the bedtime routine is a bottle and some soothing

sounds instead of having, don't take the pressure off. It doesn't have to be that they have a bath at six o'clock, right? That's exactly it. And I wish this was something that somebody had said to me at the time when I had my babies because you just are given this stereotypical pattern and routine that you're meant to follow. And of course, why can't you have a bath in the morning? Like, you know, it's just, so you've got to again, coming back to what I said earlier, what works for one family might not work for another family, what one baby response to might not be, what another baby response to. So if you know the witching hour is generally it's stressful your baby's not enjoying the bath

move the bath to another time of day and hopefully that will just ease the evening chaos because really in the evening you want dim lights you want those soothing sounds playing and you want everyone to just feel calm and not like everyone's been through an ordeal well especially if you've got a toddler who wants to play barbys or aeroplanes in the bath with your baby

does not come about that now this next mum's do I Lemma actually makes me go all sad because I can relate to it so much. This was the experience I had. So she says, I've been trying to put my 13 week old down to sleep since week seven to establish some kind of routine. But she screams from the moment I put her down until her next feed at half 10, 11 p.m. when she finally settles. It's putting real pressure on my relationship with my partner and I'm getting more and more stressed. I would love to just have a break from her to sit and have dinner and have some time to myself before starting all over again. Any tips or ideas?

Oh, it's so tough. I remember it so well when you just want them to go to bed and they just don't want to. Sarah, help. What do we do? Oh, I remember that feeling of being completely touched out, overstimulated and it's horrible because of course you love your baby and you're so delighted to be a mum but at that time of day you're like please just five minutes would be great I used a sling a lot with my babies particularly as I have more babies that really helped sometimes I would put them down but downstairs so I might put them in their pram or carricot or bring the Moses basket downstairs when they were little and that sometimes helped too because I could physically have some kind of distance from them but they could hear me pottering around or I would put on music and I think the idea I love the idea of a soothing playlist that can often help divide and conquer as well if your partner is around in the evenings or if you have other help then maybe they could even take the baby for a walk around the block sometimes babies just need a change of scenery you know if you pop them in the pram or put them in sling and you can take them that that can help um

And, you know, dinner, yeah, we all want to eat dinner in peace and it's hard to eat it when you've got a toddler and a baby crawling all over you. Maybe if dinner time is an issue and I know nobody wants to eat too late in the evening, but maybe what you do to help you as well because we're not great when we're hungry either is have a snack maybe earlier in the evening that will kind of tied you over and then have something again later when your baby's a bit more settled rather than. stick into the routine that you knew before you had babies because that's maybe not going to come back for a while either. Sorry. But it is horrible. I remember it so well. Dr Poonham, it's incredibly common this dilemma, but as we've all agreed, intensely difficult. Is there anything that you would add to help? I would agree with everything Sarah said. And my eldest, this describes the exact scenario that I was in. And I think the thing is just to be as cliched,

does it sound? But be kind to yourself. And if you're finding it hard, it is because it is hard. And some days will be harder than others. And some days you're like, oh, what was that? I did. It just worked. And we all got some peace. And the baby slept. And I can try and replicate that the next day with added pressure. But you just can't predict how your baby's going to be. So I think absolutely all those things of getting the support, getting help if you are able to. The divide and conquer 100%. I had my baby in a sling. a lot of the time he had actually quite severe reflux which went undiagnosed until he was about eight, nine weeks. And when we got the diagnosis, I was like, ah, this makes sense. So if your baby is, you know, if it's uncontrollable crying, if your baby's not settling and it's gone on for as long as

13 weeks, maybe just have a chat with a health visitor or pop in and see your GP and make sure that there isn't anything else that could be going on. But other than that, I think everything that Sarah said, I would say, yep, yep, yep. And this doesn't last forever. I now look back as I've got a 12 year old and this was the one that was the child at night time. I'm like, will this ever change? And yes, we all sit down peacefully and have our dinner. And I do miss the cuddles and snuggles that I used to get when he used to be on a sling.

So I never thought back then I would ever miss that time. When they're suddenly bigger than you and you imagine that they were once in a sling, it feels mad. Yeah. I'm like, please give me a hot. I just want to hold you for a little while and they're like, no chance. Don't touch me. So this next dilemma is interesting because you've both mentioned at times getting help, asking your partner if you've got one and they're around. But this mum says, my little boy will only let me put him to bed. He cries if his dad tries. It's exhausting for me

and I feel bad for my partner because he misses out on that part of the routine. Is there a way I can help our son except both of us? is at bedtime. So Dr. Poonam, back to you. What do you think, because we have talked about getting help and asking people to help, but then if they won't accept that help, what you do? This is difficult. I think if your baby is emotionally, and we have to tap into life, they are emotionally attached to you, and of course they are so tiny, you are their comfort blanket, you are their safe space. I think in that sense, you've just got to then try and recruit as much help for absolutely everything else that you can. So with that,

you're then not feeling that you have to be everything to everybody else. This is a very, although it never feels like a very temporary stage of the journey. So I think that, you know, you don't want to leave your child and let them scream. You're not going to just hand them over to your partner and let them just feel inadequate. I think mum guilt comes in because you feel bad that your baby doesn't want anybody else but you. but I think for the short period that there's last, you've just got to lean into everything else that you can get help and support with

and then just try different points of the day or other activities that you can do together just to help them feel included. And I think often partners want to just be part of that. So whether that is preparing the feeds, whether that is helping with bath time, those kind of things can help with bonding and skin-to-skin early stages

obviously makes a big difference as well. But, yeah, I mean, that's the kind of advice. I'd probably be asking you, Sarah, have you got any other advice that you would offer in this situation? I think it's a really good sound advice. I mean, clearly, if you are the main caregiver, your child is going to have more of a bond with you. But it's about, as you said, finding those moments where your partner can support you by taking on other household chores and responsibilities within the house and maybe getting them to spend time with your little boy, when it's not so fractious and everybody's not so tired,

maybe they can find an activity that works with them or your partner works with you so you do bath time and story time together. I always find actually that my husband was much better at story time than me because he was happy to do all the funny voices and things like that. Whereas I'd had the kids all day and I was like, I don't want to be mommy anymore. I just want to go down stairs and sit in quiet. We used to have a little breakfast club going and we would, everybody would pile into our bed in the morning before they went to school, you know, before they started school.

And we would all have tea and marmite toast in bed and we'd have a little breakfast song. And the kids still know it now. And, you know, even as we went, as we were saying before with the bath time, why not move bath time to the mornings? Or if your partner has to go work maybe at the weekends, they could have like the weekend bath time class. or the afternoon you know time to get it again it seems like it's going to be forever but it really really won't babies go through stages where they more connected with one parent another when they suddenly realize they're separate to you that's a big thing for babies to go through and they will go through certainly degrees of separation anxiety throughout their lives but be

reassured that the more comforted you can make them feel and the more you can give them those contact naps and those cuddles and wearing a sling you are actually building um confident children my daughter wouldn't go to anybody she basically lived on me and you know she's mis-independent maybe a bit too independent but it does it it's it's it's so hard when they're little though and just pockets pockets of opportunity and make it easy on yourself as we've said before. If things are really, really stressful, don't push it. Just wait. They will change. But the most important thing is that you are kind to yourself and you protect yourself and, you know, just cut yourself a break as well. And I think just adding into that is just that I think at that stage, and I remember it

well and it's only now with experience many, many, many years later as a mum that I can say this, that they pick and choose who's their favourite parents as you grow older. So you might be like the seasonal favorite at the moment but there'll be a time where you'd be like wait hold on a minute he's always wanting his daddy what about me and then this way so um i think that as much as it feels like it's pretty dementing at the moment is it's not going to always be this way and that was actually the last question i wanted to ask you both you've both talked a lot about how this is even though it feels like forever it's a really short period and it will change and it will get better But one of the things I found really hard was that I felt like everything I was doing, I was setting a habit.

And so it could be a bad habit. Don't cuddle that baby to sleep. You'll never get them in a cot after that. All of that stuff. And there's always someone with an opinion about your bedtime routine. And if your routine is you rock your baby until they go to sleep because that's what keeps everybody sane, then I always just felt like, I was really very close to setting a bad habit. What would you say to a mum who's doing the panic that I was doing and thinking they're

creating bad habits that they'll never change after that? Yeah, do you know, I remember my mum saying this to me because there was a few times when I was like, oh my God, will he ever do this? We ever sleep in his own bed again. And she was like, just look at the men around you just now. all breastfeeding? Are they all sleeping next to their mummies? Are they all pee in their pants? And I think that that really helped me at that moment was just actually look at the grown-ups around you. Okay. And the vast majority of them just settle themselves into

routines that work for them and are generally doing all right in life. So whatever they're doing that babies are not going to be like that when they're grown-ups. And I think just that sense of perspective, sometimes you just need that zoom-out moment of really? How many boys or how many men and women do I know that are behaving like this in their 30s and 40s? I don't know. It comforted me. Sarah. It's so true. I often say to people, you know, you can't tell when you meet an adult, you can't tell how old they were when they were potty trained or when they learned to read

or when they first slept through the night, how they were fed, how they were born. But what you can tell is if they were loved and they were treated with kind. and they've been given, you know, they've been taught good manners by example and things like that. And that is the most important thing. If your baby feels, if your child, feels secure and they feel loved, they will grow up to be happy, secure, loving adults. And what works for you will be great. You know, my daughter still slept in my bed until she was 11. She, you know, she's nearly 18 now and she's, as I said before, she's so independent. and I feel that part of her independence now is because she was secure enough to know she could come in my bed at any time and it was not a problem

my boys when I walked down the street with my boys now I felt like I'm walking down the street which he bounced and so huge you never would have thought that they were needed all those cuddles and all those contact neps because as as you said doctor people grow in to secure healthy adults and it's all a stage and it might seem what do they say the nights are the days of long but the years are short and that's actually so true make it easy for yourself and trust your instincts what would we always say to pregnant women don't we trust your instincts if you feel your baby's not moving the way it should be if you feel there's something unwell seek help once the baby's born we say the same thing trust your baby you know your baby better than anybody if you feel something's not right trust your instincts and sleep help your instincts are not going to let you down with the way you parent your baby, the way you soothe your baby. Trust what your baby needs. What works for your baby, what works for you. And, you know, everybody else, they've had their chance.

Let them do what they want to do. If you're happy, your baby will be happy. And if you and your baby are happy, no one else really matters. Oh, thank you, ladies. I think that is going to be really helpful for people out there who are struggling with the witching hour. Oh, it was so lovely. this was such a nice chat. I think it's always like to be trucked down memory lane these kind of conversations as well. So I think just to recap, what you've said, ladies, is that a soothing bedtime routine can look different in every single household, and that is okay. What works for your best friend's baby might not work for yours, but here are some things that you can try that might just help make that witching hour a little bit less painful. you can try a warm bath as we heard some babies hate them some babies love them and it's good to try some products like the johnson's baby bedtime range that the smell will then become familiar which can be a trigger for going to sleep you can try white noise and we can all frank johnson's for the soothing sound spotify playlist which they've created because i wish you'd made it when my kids were little it may be that some rituals help your baby feel safe it may be that wearing them in a sling can help. And most importantly, don't feel bad and don't worry if it doesn't work. Just keep trying

and remember it will get better. And if all else fails, grab some headphones, turn on that playlist for yourself and hide in the bathroom for three minutes just to calm down because your baby can pick up when you're anxious and just take three minutes to yourself to reset. Thank you all for listening. If anyone would like to follow up on any of the things that we've talked about today, whether it's the Spotify playlist or Johnson's baby bedtime range, which can be found in store and online or the Netmum's dropping clinic, then please take a look at the show notes because everything you need is in there.