The Netmums Podcast - S17 Ep2: Embracing the chaos: Navigating motherhood with Anna Williamson

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

This week on The Netmums Podcast, Alison & Wendy are joined by TV presenter, qualified life coach and therapist Anna Williamson (Celebs Go Dating, LuAnna podcast), for an honest chat about modern motherhood. Anna opens up about perinatal anxiety, postnatal depression, bonding struggles, and why asking for help is strength, not shame. She also talks about her Channel 4 series, The Great British Phone Switch, and her chart-topping podcast, The Affair, exploring why infidelity fascinates us and how some couples come back stronger. In this episode: Embracing “good-enough” parenting and the reality behind the Instagram highlights reel Anna’s lived experience of anxiety, birth trauma and PND and the power of saying it out loud Shame, bonding difficulties and the moments that make you want to stay in the car park a bit longer Phones aren’t the enemy: Anna’s car-driving analogy for teaching kids safe, smart smartphone use Inside The Great British Phone Switch: what happens when parents and teens swap phones and the family pledges that result Celebs Go Dating behind the scenes: why Kerry Katona’s journey this series made Anna proud (plus a little Pete Wicks chat!) The Affair podcast: the many faces of infidelity. Watch The Great British Phone Switch on Channel 4 (stream on demand), and listen to Anna’s podcast The Affair wherever you get your podcasts. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums  Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the NetMum's podcast with me, Wendy Gology, and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show, phones are not bad, and I think we all need to realise this. They're not bad, but we fear what we don't know. So as parents, we have to get on board and understand what they're doing, why they're using them, because they ain't going away, and they're actually extremely helpful. But, to my point with driving a car, it's about knowing the good things about it and being wary of the bad things about it. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the NetMum's podcast. Wendy, how are you doing today?

Well, I'm marvelling in the fact that we've both decided to wear basically the same clothes today. We've both come in stripes, haven't we? It's the mum uniform, stripy Breton tops. That's what you're in. The mum uniform. I'm fascinated by this. It does feel like I've only worn a Breton top since becoming a mum. And now it is like my go-to. If I'm having a bit of a tired- morning. It is. Stripes. It just works. So anyway, onto today's guest, today, I mean, you will definitely recognize today's guest,

whether it's from celebs go dating, her brilliant podcast, Luanna, or her gripping new show, The Affair with Anna Williamson. Yes, you've guessed it. It's Anna Williamson. She's also a qualified life coach and therapist, and she's now on Channel 4, hosting the great British phone switch. Anna, a warm welcome to the Netmom's podcast. and you're not wearing stripes. I've got to say, so you're not in our gang. Ladies, firstly, thank you for having me. I'm not wearing a Breton stripe. However, please keep me in the club, the mum club, because I am wearing gym kit, which I have absolutely no intention of using in an actual gym today. We like it.

Second mum uniform. Yeah, exactly. I have literally thrown on, I've got my sweaty, betty leggings, my little top. I've even got a sports bra just because it's comfy, but let's be honest, I've got absolutely no intention of going to the gym today. And our producer, may we just say, popped up this morning when we were all like, you look really, really smart, you look, you've got a lovely top on. She kind of stood up, she was like, yeah, I'm in my gym shorts underneath. So it's the thing. Can I just say, I mean, this is, this is why, you know, thanks for having me on. It's so nice to chat to you ladies, you know, and obviously, you know, over the years, you know, we've been pals on and off as well, haven't we? And it's so nice.

we're all in the same club. We're all faking it to we make it. Quite honestly, I don't think we're even faking it anymore. I think we're just quite happily embracing and accepting a lot of our life choices. Yeah, but just the chaos, isn't it? You're right. Anna, first up, we have to wish you a belated happy birthday because it was yesterday, wasn't it? It was. But you were feeling unwell, weren't you? Did you still manage to enjoy yourself a little bit? Yeah, do you know what? I did. Isn't it just Sod's law? Like, I don't know if I'm a massive hypochondriac, by the way, just to put it out there. I overuse 1-1-1.

But I don't know if I've had this horrible strain of COVID that's been going around or not. Probably not, if I'm honest with it. It's probably a little bit of hay fever and a little bit of a cold. But yeah, I woke up yesterday on my birthday and I was like, oh, of course, of course it's my birthday. Of course I've turned 44 today and I feel like absolute poo. But, you know, my son couldn't be, quote unquote, couldn't be bothered to come upstairs to wish me a happy birthday. but my daughter made up for it by dancing into my room

fully naked and sort of performing a birthday song on the bed for me. So, you know, we'll take that. No, I did enjoy it, thank you. Who doesn't love a naked birthday song? Honestly? This is what a five and a half year old daughter does.

And I'm really seeing the difference now between having a son who's eight and a daughter who's five. And my God, they are worlds apart. It's mad, isn't it? Just that. You reason and the same, way and then they still end up still different, don't they?

Totally. It is absolutely bonkers and it's amazing because we all, I think, enter motherhood. Well, maybe I'm generalising thinking, you know what, you know, what's this all, what's this going to be like, you know, and everything you think it might be, it really isn't. For good and for bad, actually. Like yesterday, my kids, I'm not going to lie, were thoroughly irritating at times and just really trying to spoil my birthday. and then all it means and all it takes is one little thing and you go oh and your heart melts

and it was they were fighting constantly um they're in that stage now they just fight all the time physically like literally to the death like lion cubs just bundling like it's just bundling and kicking and it's just all of that um and then my daughter suddenly goes mommy can we do a percy pig treasure hunt for your birthday i'll do it and i was like oh you're really quite sweet so you know we so i took I think it was harping back to the COVID days where it was go out for your daily walk and I was like any activity we can do and I used to hide like Percy pigs

like around like where we live and that was kind of the activity of the day. Do you remember the miniature duck thing in COVID? Did you guys do the miniature duck thing? No, what's that? No. So you could buy tiny little teeny weeny little ducks and you could buy them in kind of like 500

hundreds and then you just hide them all around your house and it would keep your kids entertain looking for these miniature ducks but i swear to god it's 20 25 i'm still finding well alison looks like me i i missed the duck trend and i would have had the duck trend your children were too young though alison probably your twins my eldest was like eight or nine i think during or yeah she was like nine during your twin your kids were probably too teeny weenie yeah to be chasing ducks around the house yeah i had a newborn in yeah i had a newborn in covid which was pretty unfun um and then i had a three and a half year but do you remember i sorry i don't know what i think it's i remember we had the um did you get the the the the the bubble craze where all

the kids like where we live would like um decorate stones and then hide them and then you'd go on your family walk uh and then you'd all go and like find the poscapaned pebbles yeah exactly oh my gosh can i just say we're already now talking kind of with you know rose tinted glasses about the COVID days. Nostalgia. Oh no, not here. There's nothing, Rosie. Never.

So what I love about you, Anna, is that one minute you're chatting to celebs about who they want to cop off with, the next you're talking really openly about your own mental health. Did you ever imagine you'd have this crazy varied career? In a word, where do you know? And it's a really strange one because I've been doing. sort of broadcasting, I guess, because I started out cutting my teeth, you know, as a TV presenter in kids' telly. So I've been doing it for over 25 years now. And as you say, I never, ever,

no careers teacher or even parent trying to nurture me through, what are you going to do for a living could ever have predicted where I would have ended up now. And I am so pleased with my career progression because it has been extremely varied as you say and I consider myself really having never worked a day in my life because everything I have done I have just so passionately enjoyed don't get me wrong over the years I've had some like pretty boring jobs you know I have grafted you know working in fast food chains and horrible temping jobs just to pay my rent you know whilst I was sort of seeking the dream of my sort of dream career um but to you your point, no, because really how it all became sort of one big weird cocktail where I was in my

mid-20s when I had a mental breakdown, the first of two, which was pretty unfun, but actually weirdly became a real pivotal change in my life where I was seeking, you know, I sought therapy and sought help in my mid-20s and no one was talking about mental health back in, you know, the early 2000s when it happened. And I was also, and big, a huge part of my my story around that is that I was in an abusive relationship, which at the time I also didn't recognise it was. It was coercive control. I mean, again, we had none of this awareness and even legalities now, criminal, you know, criminal prosecutions around it. So, so that really sparked a complete change in my career, but then weirdly ended up everything aligning again. So, you know,

in a very, very long story short, over that sort of 16, 17 years, I then went to, and you'll find most therapists a lot of counsellors therapists coaches come from lived experience which is why they want to get into that change work because you come from a inside out you can you can i know what it feels like to genuinely not want to be here you know and that's that's pretty start i know what that feels like i had it again when i had terrible post anal depression you know it's it's the pits um but i also know that there are things that can be done to get better so when i started to train and qualify in various different talking therapies because then you get really interested in the whole thing

and I was like, oh my God, I'm really into neuro-linguistic programming, oh my God, I'm really into CBT, oh my God, I'm, like you just become, well, I did anyway, just became fascinated by psychology that I started training that and then it all kind of came sort of amalgamated in my work in TV and then I started to do that work on the telly and then as you say, bringing it up to present day for the last eight years I've been, you know, one of the dating coaches on Slebs Go Dating, as well as a private practitioner, written self-help books, podcasts, so I sort of juggle a lot, as you know, and it's all a bit crazy and strange, but underpinning all of that, I just am me. And I think that sort of cut through. I'm a little bit crazy, but I also have a great deal of depth as well. So it sort of depends on where I choose to tune into it.

You mentioned there your experience of postnatal depression and you've spoken about your experiences with perinatal anxiety but you didn't seek any help at the time, did you? Would you do that differently if you could go back in time? Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. I think this is why I'm so passionate about banging that drum now and I think I will bang this drum until I'm dust because it's the pits and if anyone's listening to this,

now and thinks they might be experiencing postnatal depression or perinatal depression anxiety birth trauma you know all of those connected complex feelings please don't feel like you're alone because i know you feel like you're alone when you're in it but you're really not and yeah i think looking back now i feel so sorry for the anna that had just given birth actually i feel so sorry for the anna that i just got pregnant because my anxiety i have generalized anxiety disorder. I was diagnosed in when I'd had all this, you know, blow up in my, in my mid-20s. And it's something I've managed very well. Very well. I manage it very well now. You kind of practice what you preach after a while. But getting pregnant and then ill-advised at the time

to have come off my anxiety medication, a lot of people will listen and be aware of SSRIs, which is a typical medication for depression and anxiety. You might know the name certraline, etatalopram, to talapram. There's many different versions. But I was ill-advised at the time to come off that cold turkey very quickly, but I didn't have any extra sort of signposting or psychological support. So my first pregnancy was really masked as hormones, but actually it was a raging anxiety disorder, which was out of control.

And that pregnancy mentally was very tough. Physically, I've been very blessed. Both my pregnancies physically were fine textbook. But when I got to birth and I typically went late, you know, I went 42 weeks, I gave birth, you know, I was panic attacking all throughout birth. It was a terrible birth, very long story short, you know, 40 hours, hemorrhages, you name it, foreseps. And then that level of trauma I experienced after I'd had Enzo, my son, was something that I have never, I don't ever want to repeat. I don't ever want any woman to ever feel the depths of despair and disconnect that I felt. in those first few months after giving birth,

it was horrible, absolutely horrible. It was black and dark and horrible. It's what I think hell must feel like, you know. So yeah, I think to your answer there, Wendy, I wish I'd been more transparent with my health visitors, with my midwife, with my husband, with my family. With yourself, probably. With myself and let me...

And do you know what? I've talked about this once or twice before. There was one person, a couple of people actually, that really helped me out of those trenches in those initial couple of weeks. And I think sometimes, I think this is why the importance of having a therapist or a coach, someone that actually is quite disconnected to you and doesn't actually have any actually opinion on you as a family or as a person. Because one person, her name's Lucy, and I went to school with her when I was at primary school.

I haven't spoken to her in 20 years. And she happened to have given birth to her third child on the same day that I gave birth to my first child. And she reached out to me on Facebook, you know, Oh, well, congratulations. That's crazy. We've had a baby on the same day. And for some reason, I just, I offloaded to her. And I was like, it's horrible. And she was amazing. And she really started to give me, like, she just held me this, you know, through messaging. Like, she was amazing. And then also, and I know we can, we all get a bit kind of joking about this, but the NCT group. You know, I had joined NCT. What is this loan of old shit? But it goes one way or the other NCT. They're either really. helpful or really detrimental there's no in between you're you're absolutely right and we've done all the classes you know it was like you know thrown together aren't you with this group of people

and it wasn't till we'd all given birth that we all you know that the obligatory WhatsApp chat started at three in the morning you know whilst we're all trying to feed those ladies let me tell you they saved me because suddenly and I always remember it was one of them that was one of them said it must have been about 10 days in and it was like three in the morning I remember she messaged on the WhatsApp group and she was like I'm just going to say it Is anyone else finding this really hard and really boring? And I was like, these are my women. And I also, just like to point out,

I've slagged my kids off since I've come on this podcast. They are undoubtedly the best thing I've ever done. But it's also bloody hard. And I think it's okay to say that. Never have I loved something so much I've also hated in equal measures. Yeah, yeah. I'm so with you. Now, you know, obviously you're talking about how difficult those first few weeks and months were.

And you've spoken before about. about how you struggle to bond with your son when he was born, that disconnect that you've just spoken about. Do you think that you felt shame around that and around the fact that you hadn't enjoyed your pregnancy, which is, you know, a time that were meant to be blooming and feeling blessed? Oh, God, that word. Yeah. The blooming word.

Blooming and feeling blessed. And actually, you were just going through hell. Was shame a big part of why you didn't speak up, do you think? Absolutely. I think you've completely encapsulated how I felt. Shame and embarrassed, actually. And I think that's, and this is why I think I feel so strongly as a therapist, you know, because no one asks to feel as they feel. They just feel. And I think we need to really suspend judgment around that. And you will probably find no person that suspends judgment more than me. It's why I do a lot of the projects I do now. But absolutely, you know, I had a friend who was on a fourth round of IVF, you know, when I was getting pregnant with my son and giving birth so I didn't dare open up the fact that how I was feeling because I was like God shut up like you know you haven't

had these struggles but again that doesn't and that shouldn't minimise how we feel in that moment because you know I wasn't asking to sit there feeling depressed you know I wasn't I wasn't being ungrateful by choice you know I wasn't being some busy bitch you know I just felt

hideous you know and yeah shame and I think if I'd heard one more person say to me oh you must so happy, I would have probably punched them in the face. Because again, it's people projecting their feelings, which I get. But I think in society and in life, we have to be very careful about how we project our own feelings and emotions and perceptions on a situation to others. Because in those moments, in those well-intended moments, I do not doubt, you create silence and shut down. And the more small and silence someone feels, the more desperately that can unravel

behind the scenes. I didn't dare to anybody how I was feeling that I didn't feel a connection to my son, that I didn't know how to feel that I felt claustrophobic. I remember my mother-in-law coming around just to give me, I said I think I made up a reason that I had to go down to the local supermarket.

And I remember, she was like, that's okay, I watched the baby, and I remember driving to the local supermarket and just sitting and walking around the supermarket going, oh my God, I need to elongate this as long as I can. I don't want to go back. I don't want to go back. You know, it's a horrible feeling because also

I knew I wanted my son. My son was a planned for child but it was frigging terrifying because you know almost yourself as you say the shame you said at Alison I'm like what's wrong with me what is wrong? Why are you not looking at your

son like that woman is over there gooey and you know enjoying her Costa coffee with her friend why are you the one sitting here in the car crying your eyes out with your baby in the back of the car and you're wishing he just sort of shush You know, it's a horrible feeling. And it's, you know, I remember doing that in a Sainsbury's car park.

Yeah. I'd stopped on a car journey. It was sat in a kind of like big Sainsbury's, just kind of like milk leaking and weeping. Oh, it's just, it's just a thing. But there's so much pressure, isn't there, for mums to have it all together, which isn't helped much by social media. And we were joking before we started recording about how we're recording this in the summer holidays. it's day two and you're already a bit like, okay. So what percentage of the time do you feel like

you're nailing it and what percentage of the time do you feel like it's all falling apart? That's a really great question actually. So me personally, me firstly as well, we all just need to, I mean, and I speak as someone on Instagram by design, but it's a highlights reel. You know, you're not going to see me, which I was three days ago, standing in my utility room with the door closed with my foot against it, trying to finish off a voice note to my manager about something urgent and then secretly just doing the middle finger to the door which was aimed at my children behind it you know it's it's a reality I would say I mean I come at it but but then on a

flip side I mean I joke about it but I think we're all looking for that holy grail of balance the way that I deal with it is I I am very fortunate you know in that I'm a freelancer and I'm at a point in my career where I'm quite in control of my schedule and I have a lot of people that I can sort of delegate out to. So I know that's a real privilege, and that's sort of 25 years of getting to that point. Not always works, but I can sort of dictate my time.

I'm not really behold to anybody else. Now I know that's a privilege, because a lot of people can't. We have bosses, they have colleagues. They can't just go, well, you know, I'm not coming in today. You know, it doesn't work like that. I totally get that. But as much as I can, I prioritize the children always at the top of the list. So where are the children?

What are they doing? who's with them, you know, is that me? Are they happy in life in general? And then I sort of then will plan underneath that, you know. So that helps me enjoy motherhood. I wouldn't say I feel like I'm nailing it, probably any of the time. But I think that in itself is a false expectation. Because as my mother has always said to me, kids aren't robots. You know, they can be, you can have your sweetest child one second

and then they turn into the devil incarnate the next. stuff happens you know you can be you know one minute feeling like you're nailing it and then anything

can happen like a health thing I had it recently actually I was filming Slebs go dating and it's always a testing time for my husband and I with the family because it takes me away a little more by design I try and be quite present

with the children for sort of school pickups and drop off as best I can and I fit that around my work but when I'm in series that typically takes me out quite a lot because we film quite long quite hard for Slebs go dating but I was in the middle of a series

in the agency and my husband and I were just about doing the juggle with his work as well with the kids we're just about there we got our support system in place with family members and stuff and then the unexpected happens my son was got a phone call that the phone call of doom when you see the school number on your phone

and I happen to have my phone on me on set I don't normally have phone on me on set I think I'd had it there just because I needed to use it for a prop or something and they phoned and my son was deeply upset and distressed he'd found a lump and that's obviously terribly upsetting for anyone to hear and I had to leave work immediately and take him to A&E where it turns out you had a hernia

but in those moments and I totally unraveled then from that day on because it was like we're just about nailing it we're just about got our system in place but at any point anything can happen where it totally derails and I didn't expect in the middle of a series that I'm doing that my son obviously comes first

he wanted mummy he didn't want daddy he wanted mama he's quite very attached to me The irony with his birth is, I think I've always tried to compensate with him, but we are extremely attached to each other. And at that point, I felt like I'm so not nailing this. I'm in A&E at 10pm with my son who's very distressed. I'm trying to figure out what to do with him. I've got to go to film in the morning.

My team are being really great about that. But, you know, I am so involved in that show that I've got to figure out how we're going to deal with this narrative. So at that moment, I was like, oh, my God, I am failing at life, you know, failing at motherhood, failing at everything. But you know what? Tomorrow's a new day. It really is. I mentioned celebs go dating. I want to ask, who's been your favourite celeb on the show? Because I personally would watch a whole series just dedicated to Pete Wicks.

Oh. I think everybody would, wouldn't it? Maybe we just need to, maybe I should just say to our team that let's just do where Pete Wicks goes dating. Yes, I would watch it. Great idea. And we do that. I mean, to be fair, I feel like we've done that several times on celebs go dating. You have.

Could you do Pedro Pascal goes dating, please? Okay, yeah, we'll make that happen to you. But you know what? I'm so blessed, really, because they're all brilliant, you know, and there's been hundreds now celebrities that we've had over the time that I've been on the show and this particular series. I mean, honestly, they're all amazing. I would say in particular this series, I am so, so, so proud of Kerry Ketona.

I can't wait to see that. Oh, let me tell you, you aren't infuriated late. We've had Kerry on the pod, so it'll be really interesting. people I think and I thought this actually when we said about Kerry coming on back on the show because she was on my first series actually in 2018

it was but like does you know has Kerry you know what else has Kerry got to give you know because I think we've been through the ups and the downs I've known Kerry for years in this industry as well let me just say I couldn't love that girl more you have never seen her in such a good place as you see her in this series

and again she's a beacon of hope that after everything she's been through in her life she is now stepping into what I believe is her absolute best time yet. And her journey this time in the agency is, it's going to smash ratings. Amazing. I cannot wait to see that. Now, Anna, you recently launched the Great British Phone Switch on Channel 4, which explores what happens when parents and kids switch phones. It's such a fascinating concept.

Is smartphone use and social media something that scares you? Because you're getting to the age now, or your kids are getting to the age where you're probably starting to think about it, aren't you? Well, this is why yes is the answer to that question. I think it is for everybody else. And it's by that very notion, which is why we launched a Great British Phone Switch. And it's, it has been one of the most interesting TV projects I think I've ever done, and I'm really proud of it. And we, yeah, it's on, it's now, it's on, it's on, it's on, it's on, so just, just stream it now. Great British Phone Switch. And it's, we had four families made up of a parent and a teen. And it's that, it's exactly. exactly that we wanted to get to the heart of what is going on around phone usage, phone appetites, but also to help empower parents, we empower teens, but also to create connection, communication, because there's so much disconnect around it. And it's really scary as parents. And as you say, yeah, I mean, my eight-year-old, he's nearly nine, actually, I mean, he's already

obsessed. Can I use your phone? Can I use your phone? Can I use your phone? You know, and there there is so much for us to be wary of and I always say the analogy is you know like a car you wouldn't just give a 17 year old a car and go there you go get in off you go drive it you know you teach them you teach them how to drive a car you teach them of what the dangers are what they need to be aware of where they need to be especially wary of some situations some roads or you know whatever they need to look out for dangers but they also need to also enjoy it because it's fun it's freedom it's exciting so I think that analogy is always quite a good one in that you wouldn't just send them off out into the world

in a car you teach them how to use it and it's exactly the same with phones and social media and the internet and i always say this is as a children's counsellor get on board with them ask not tell what do they want to watch what do they want to play on why are they using social media and what i loved about the great british phone switch is that typically the parent and the team came into us and it was a closed experiment where they had they swapped phones for a whole weekend and we then had them under surveillance to see how they would cope and what was brilliant is that it sparked conversation it sparked communication it judgment started to to shake up a little bit around that and you know we had one guy luke and ila he was the dad ila was his 15 year old daughter now he came at it from a protective dad because he'd seen his daughter get bullied a bit online so naturally he's like my ass my rules you ain't using a phone you know and i think we can identify with that however it's not that helpful when you got 15 year old girl go great. Well, you know, she's going to use it anyway. Do you know what I mean? And actually, what was so lovely is that the dad got into her world and she taught him what she was doing on lots

of, you know, video editing and photo editing and the creator side. And he was blown away by how creative she was and how he's like, oh, you're so clever, you know, had no idea. And she also got into his world a bit to understand what he was using phones for and why he had a very different attitude to her. And at the end of the experiment, every single family came up with a pledge, which was essentially creating family usage in a healthy way, that phones are not bad. And I think we all need to realise this. They're not bad, but we fear what we don't know.

So as parents, we have to get on board and understand what they're doing, why they're using them, because they ain't going away. And they're actually extremely helpful. But, to my point with driving a car, it's about knowing the good things about it and being wary of the bad things about it. We've also been loving your new podcast, The Affair. why do you think we're also fascinated by infidelity and we let's face it

judging by the reaction to the cold play kiss in the summer we really are fascinated by infidelity yeah it was funny enough yeah it that all happened and I was like goodness me you know this is sort of case in point I've been working on this as a bit of a passion project the affair podcast for about 18 months two years because it's a topic that really fascinates me from a relationship coach point of view. Now, to be very clear, I do not condone affairs, I do not glamourise affairs, but I am interested in affairs. Because, to your point, one in five people have an affair, which, and the very fact that the podcast just shot straight into the number one position in podcasting, that is absolutely nothing to do with my skill,

I'm sure, it is down to the fascination around the topic. And what I wanted to do was bring my therapy room to the masses to help people understand, to get under, I'm all about prevention, early intervention, to understand that it is not one size fits all. And I think we all have this depiction of affairs being a certain way, you know, an illicit, sordid, Jilly Cooper-esque, grubby, exciting, you know, liaison, you know, which then creates mass destruction. It can. It really can. But there are so many other situations why people enter into affairs. It's not just about ego. It's not just about sex.

And in fact, a lot of my research and a lot of the guests that I have on, it's actually emotional connection that is lacking in their lives. You've got people that are just opportunists. You've got some people that are avoidant, and they're trying to block out stuff that's going on in their life. And this is why I wanted to do it from the three perspectives that typically happen in an affair, the person having it, the other person, and the person that's been cheated on.

And that's what I do to get that context from men, from women, different demographics. And I think the cold play thing was really, really interesting. And that's a whole mess out there over there that we've seen unpack. And I feel sad for them. But why do we all become so obsessed by that viral video? Because we all saw the moment the affair was blown.

And that plays into our, oh, the scandal around an affair. But with my podcast, you know, I have some people that are just serial cheaters that are narcissistic and I have that perspective. But I also have some other people. I have a woman on my series one whose husband was in palliative care. He was no longer conscious, had been for several, you know, she'd been through the mill. And she needed a release. And everyone in her family and, you know, disowned her. basically end up having a sexual affair with somebody because she had spent three years, you know,

dealing with this devastating situation. And I'm not there to judge. I'm not my business. But what I am there to do is to bring these perspectives to light. And just to help people understand that actually maybe if I think of this in a different way, and what is the nicest thing, I've had so many comments from people that have been on the receiving end of affairs and or their parents have had fairs, you know, as a child, their parents had an affair, they've been affected by affairs, shall we say. And they've said, listening to this has somehow soothed a lot of the pain and the, because I've started to think that in a different way about it, not okaying it, but thinking that actually, perhaps they weren't just a horrible narcissistic person.

Actually, I think there was a lot else going on in their life and it's helped them get some context around it, which essentially then brings about some healing. That's really good. Do you think it's possible at all for someone to have an affair and then their original relationship ends up stronger because of it. Oh, absolutely. It happens all the time. I have guests on this series, actually, series two that that has exactly happened to. And in therapy, I always say to people, whether you're going to stay together or whether you're going to split up, have the work.

Do the work. Do the coaching. Do the therapy. Because you want to catch a point where you have completely purged. Relationships can absolutely come through infidelity. However, big caveat, there has to be absolute hands-on-table, ground zero, work done by both. The person who has done the cheating has to be fully held accountable, fully apologetic, and allow their partner to purge and ask and get the answers to whatever they need to know. And often you'll find the person who's been cheated on does want to know all the sick and sordid details. There is an inherent fascination to have to know.

And as painful as that can feel, everybody that has said that, said that they have come through that. as painful as that is, they've had to know, you know, the, were you thinking of me, where was it, you know, what happened? Are they better than me? You know, all those horrible questions. Because in order to, and as I would say to a couple, if that's going to still be, you know, percolating, you can't move forwards because you will bring that through into your future. You have to have those days of reckoning and it's hard and it's raw and it's emotional but many couples get to that point where they either decide they cannot forgive and that's fair enough and they cannot move on and they have to split but they tend to be having at least

purged all that and had the answers they need to hear to make that informed decision so nobody's left uncertain as to why that relationship has ended but then some people then work on that and if that person that's cheated is true you know we've understood why and there's and this is a hard question in infidelity to ask the person who's been cheated on what is your role in that because naturally a defensive response will kick in

but we can all this is why it's important to have it because we all play a role in it I'm not saying anyone's to blame but it's all about figuring out well what is my role in this relationship what ingredients does my relationship need in order to not just survive

but to thrive and many couples do come through infidelity and are stronger than ever however they get everything in line that they hadn't prior to the affair. You spend so long, Anna, supporting so many other people. Who supports you when you're having a wobble?

Oh, my God, that's such a good question. Nobody went to. Oh, Anna. I'm joking. I'm joking. That's a great question. I shouldn't joke and laugh about that because someone will think I'm being truthful and I'm really not. I'm very lucky.

I have a really good husband who's really supportive. And I have a really good family support, you know, by design. I live near my parents, my in-laws, and we have a very strong family unit. And my parents are two of the wisest people I've ever known. They are kind and considerate and empathetic, but also very boundaryed and very firm. And they are a terrific sounding board. And they'll tell me the stuff I don't want to hear. But you know what?

I know I need to hear it. And then also professionally, I've also got some wonderful friends too. Louisa, who I do one in the podcast, where she's, you know, I can tell her anything. She's a real confident on, as is Paul, who I do celebs go dating. Paul and Tom, you know, they are, they're very good friends of mine that I could be, you know, truly vulnerable with if I need to be. But also professionally, I have professional supervision, which is so important. All therapists have therapists.

It helps keep us regulated. It helps keep us practicing well. so every month I dump everything onto my supervisors and have my own cathartic therapy session and that is again I feel held by those people who are extremely talented at what they do and can see through me as well I mean one of my supervisors Ray

I love him he's my psychotherapy supervisor I have two for two different disciplines and if I get online to do my therapy with him the first thing he'll go is oh you look dreadful you look tired well i'm like thanks for that but he just he'll cut through right they went right what's because because they're trained to see what i see in people you know because they trained me so you know they can cut through it and they're like don't don't BS me what's me and then and it's true

then i go oh do you know what you had a bit bit of a bit of a barney the other day with you know mother half or actually i had a really tricky client this week or i'm finding my work schedule really you know difficult and they can cut through it and they can bring me back around so this is why i'm such an advocate of therapy and coaching because everyone needs it Oh, 100%, 100%. Well, Anna, this feels like this has been a little bit of a therapy session for me. I feel like I've got so much out of this. So thank you so much for joining us today on the NetMama's podcast.

It's been wonderful to chat to you. Thank you, ladies. Honestly, this has been therapy for me too. And I think you're amazing at what you do. And thank you for just doing this amazing pod. Don't forget, you can get in touch with us on all social channels. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, just type in Netmoms and you'll find us. And if you liked what you've heard today, we'd love.

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