The Netmums Podcast - S17 Ep3: 'Birthing' with Davina McCall & midwife Marley Henry: Boundaries, and trusting your instincts

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

This week on The Netmums Podcast, Alison & Wendy are thrilled to welcome the beloved Davina McCall, a true national treasure, and her co-author, midwife Marley Henry, to discuss their new book, Birthing. Fair warning - this episode gets emotional! The chat gets into the realities of conception, pregnancy, birth, and the often-overlooked postpartum period. Davina shares her personal journey through motherhood, from the challenges of the fourth trimester to the importance of listening to her own needs, she emphasises the significance of love and boundaries in parenting. Midwife Marley Henry enters the chat half way through and adds her expertise as a midwife, offering invaluable advice to expectant parents about the birthing process and the importance of being informed about all available options. In this episode:  The journey of writing Birthing and the motivation behind it Understanding the realities of labour and the importance of bodily autonomy How to navigate the fourth trimester and the significance of self-care Real-life birth stories and the lessons learned from them Trusting your intuition as a parent and the importance of boundaries Advice for new parents on managing expectations and seeking help Don't miss out on the chance to grab a copy of Birthing for a comprehensive guide to your pregnancy journey. Stay connected with Netmums for more parenting tips, community support, engaging content: Website: netmums.com / Instagram: @netmums  Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

You're listening to the NetMum's podcast with me, Wendy Gullidge, and me, Alison Perry. Coming up on this week's show, what do I need comes in a moment. It's quite hard to write down a list of not obvious things like a holiday or sudden time off. It's little day-to-day time things. I need some help. I need to go out and get some shopping. I need to go to bed without thinking, what are they trying to... It's exhausting trying to figure out what other people are thinking. Don't do other people's thinking for them. Just do your own.

But before all of that, this episode of the NetMums podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mamia. One of my favourite things about being a parent is when clever people come up with genius solutions to problems we have. Oh my goodness, me too. Like, can we please give a dame or a knighthood to whoever invented those little syringes for kids' medicine? It makes it so much easier to look at,

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Now. Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Netman's podcast. Alison, how are you? Tell me about your week. Oh, my goodness. I'm good, Wendy, but can I make a slight confession here? I am obsessed with a teenage TV show. Now, in my defence, I'm watching it with my teenager, but I am fully obsessed.

It's called The Summer I Turned Pissy. And every Wednesday a new episode comes out, and I'm texting my teen go, do not watch it without me. and we sit down together and we watch it and we dissect it. And I'm probably fully obsessed. Am I okay? Do we need to stage an intervention? I don't think we do.

I'm watching Stranger Things again with my teenager at the moment and I'm a bit obsessed about that too. So I think it's okay. It's nice to watch things with them, right? It's a bonding moment. No, I fancy, hey, doggie. Right, tell us who we have on the podcast today because I'm just a little bit excited.

I'm excited too. And I'm also excited to see whether she has watched any kind of teen dramas with her kids in years gone by. And I'll feel a little bit better about my confession. But we're joined today by someone we all know and love. She is, I'm going to say it, a national treasure. She's a mom of three. She's a regular on our TV screens. Davina McCall changed the national conversation about menopause with a documentary and her book,

Menopauseing. And now she's back with another book about, women's health, this time about birth. Birthing, written with co-author Midwife Marley, is a roadmap to a positive conception, pregnancy, birth and post-partum period. Now, we're going to be joined a bit later by Midwife Marley, but for now, DeVina, a warm welcome to the NetMum's podcast. Yay!

Hooray! She's here! Blah! How you doing? How you doing? Welcome. Really good, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

nice to be here. For everyone listening, Davina's had a bit of a day. Devina's been in a car for a long time, travelling around London. It's been challenging and I did do two journeys on a limo bike, which I haven't done for like decades and it was such good fun. Was it? Yeah. I mean, it was so boss. Like I felt what was really funny, I got on the limo back. I'd forgotten completely that you don't hold on to the rider. Oh, do you don't? I had my hands on his waist and I was like, is it all right for me to put my hands here? It felt very intimate.

And he goes, you've got handles by your bum if you want to hold on to those. I was like, oh, right, yes, yes, I forgot. Sorry. I'm like clinging on, you know, for dear life. No, don't do that. We half imagined you were going to be in one of those took-tooks that goes around London with furry seats, blaring out kind of like I will survive at the top of their speakers. I needed

that. I needed some of that positive music to take me out of the fog of being stuck. I mean, I do understand, but a week's worth, it's actually very debilitary. It's like cutting off London's lifeblood. So this is the tube strikes for anyone who's a bit confused. Yes, it's been really, really a challenging week.

And obviously it's the like publishing day today of the book and it's been so busy trying to get to places and it's just been so frustrating but i am here with you and i'm going to put all of that behind me now we've never met stevena but it feels like you're an old friend because basically you've been on my tv for such a long time do you get that a lot from strangers to people come bowling up as if they're your bestie what's even funnier um wendy is that i uh i will be somewhere And I'll just get the nod.

So the nod looks something like this. Like, it's just like, I know you. And I go, I know you. Like I do the same thing back. Because it's usually from a midlifer, male or female, but I'm just like, I want to kiss my teeth at the same time. Yeah, like, I've got you. We're in the gang.

This is it. Yeah. We are, right? Yeah. Yeah, we are. We are. Absolutely. It's like, you don't know me, but you know me.

Yes. And just equally, just because I'm, that's not because I'm famous, it's because of the time of life where we're at. I know you, I know you. Do you know what I mean? It's so nice that. Yeah, yeah. I can't think of a better club to be in.

Yeah, no, I agree. But you have been on so many iconic TV programs. Way back, you were on Streetmate, Big Brother. And then recently, I personally was a fan of my mum, your dad, and I'm devastated that it's not coming back. Can we just discuss that very quickly? Can we? Because I'm not happy.

What happened? That show was so good. So good. So good. Do you know what I think? Do you know what I think it is that we as midlifers have been spoiled by our children's shows, a bit like that, that have got nooky in it? Yes. I think people wanted more sauce.

Yeah. But it had the romance. You had the cute moments. It had the heart. And Source actually comes too early on those shows. Yeah. And I feel like our moms and dads were getting to know each other. And the people that watched it absolutely loved it, but not enough people watched it.

And I think in olden days when there was a bit more money in telly, we probably would have got another series because it was so critically loved. Yeah. But it just didn't get the viewers kind of quick enough in the series. And I was so sad about it. I genuinely hand on heart felt like it had a message to bring. I agree. I loved it.

Yeah. Thanks for that. You're welcome. So we mentioned earlier that your kids are all grown up now. Are you relieved that that kind of messy, exhausting, relentless bit of parenting is over? Is there a little bit of you that misses it and would quite like to be watching Hey Dougie on a Thursday afternoon?

I've not gotten in a session with Hey Dougie, by the way, for anyone who knows me? Just let you know, I think you have. But actually for me, what it was was that when my kids were little, it is demanding, it's tiring. If you work, it is a massive juggling. act. If you don't work, it's a massive juggling act. It's, it's, it's a lot. It's, um, a time where

you quite rightly put yourself second, third, fourth down the totem pole of importance in your family because your kids have got to be more important than you. It's, it's an important um, fact. And I used to spend quite a lot of time thinking, well, in two, years I'll be able to do this and they'll be able to have a babysit or in a couple of years maybe we'd be able to have a weekend away or, you know, I felt like I'd wished away some of the time and now they have all grown up and my son, you know, who was the youngest, who was Nikki Graham final, Nikki Graham and Big Brother final. He's 19 next Saturday. He's 19. He was in my tummy. I mean, it's nuts.

And I can go do whatever I want, go wherever I want. I have just said last weekend to Michael, can't wait to be a grandma. Bring it on. I miss it so much. And how did he react to that particular sentence? Oh, we're not mad. Like, there I am thinking, I can't wait for some independence

so that I get some independence, like, give me a baby. Yeah. What is wrong with me? Oh, but that's the baby you can give back. This is true This is true And you know I did

I have been away twice This year to festivals and stuff And I could never have done that before You know I needed to get Chester through A levels I needed to be around in the holidays I needed him to just have a bit of support Or someone there And now

He wants to go off and do his own thing And do some travelling and be You know with his girlfriend and be independent Great but I can go and go and do what I like but now I'm like God it's quite mad isn't it you just missed them a bit

So on the grandchildren front What kind of grandparent do you think you'll be Are you going to be, you know, spoiling them Doing all the things that you shouldn't be doing All the things you didn't do with your own kids Or are you going to be strict? What do you think? So what I think I'll be a lot more relaxed

I think I was quite an anxious mum in that, you know, I wanted to make sure that they were settled, that they felt secure, but in a kind of anxious way. And obviously, being an anxious parent makes them not feel settled, all secure. So I really wanted to create something that I potentially maybe around my birth mother didn't feel. And so I was really kind of quite,

rigid about wanting them to have sleeps in the day wanting them to have a routine I think I would be a lot more relaxed as a grandma and I'd realize babies can sleep wherever take them with you they like being around

they love white noise and all they need is love and boundaries and I did do that for my own kids but I just feel like I would also like to think and I think this is important that I would listen to my own children's requirements for what they want their kids to have.

So, you know, if they have very specific times that they want to sleep and they want their kid to sleep in bed, you know, I would negotiate. Maybe I'd go, look, we want to go out and take baby with us, but we'll stay in and during the day and we'll make sure that they get their daytime kit and everything, blah, blah, blah. something like that you know i'd negotiate with um the parent my child um as to what i would be allowed to do

the thing i the thing i wouldn't do is the sugar thing i i was brought up on sugar and it created a monster in me and i've seen um subsequent generations not do that with their kids and how brilliant that is and um there is something about grandparents though isn't there grandparents like my in-laws just fill my kids with sugar every time. And it's like, it's so weird. I think it's because, so I don't know how old you're in, how old are your in-laws? Oh, they're like late 70s.

Yeah, so late 70s would be the kids of people that experience World War II and were on rations. Yes. And that was a very difficult time and they just did not get sugar easily. They couldn't easily. For them to be able to give a small child a sweet treat is such a joy. But actually, for us, we've grown up knowing that it's not great. And it should be like a once in a, you know, once in a blue moon treat. Yeah.

Not something they don't ever get, but not something that you get every day, you know, a pudding every day after your meal. But when I live with my granny, you know, a pudding after a meal was a luxury. that she couldn't afford her own children. Yeah. Hmm. So it's coming up to a year since you went through something pretty huge and you discovered you had a massive benign brain tumour and had to have surgery.

What on earth was that experience like? And what has it kind of taught you that you've carried on with you throughout this year? So it was pretty traumatic. and I spend my life trying to turn my experiences and I've been really good at it so far any experience that I've been through that I've found difficult and we've all been through calamities and I do believe that the more calamities we go through

and the more calamities you allow your kids to experience within a safe you know a safe kind of comfort zone or like a you know what I'm trying to say like let your children go through bad things don't always try and protect them because they will grow and learn from that so I'm always trying to think of okay that was really difficult

what have I learned from it but I have a lovely counsellor that I see when I've been in a pickle and she said to me the other day she said you don't have to keep putting a positive spin on this you're allowed to say it was really difficult and it was really difficult and sometimes you need someone to tell you that

yeah and I still can't I still can't really talk about it without crying and I feel like I'd quite like to move past that phase it feels like quite a long time now and I want to but I suppose I found out about it didn't think it was bad had a meeting about it four months, five months later, found out that it was quite serious and I probably needed it operated on, spent another four months coming to the conclusion, having spoken to two neurosurgeons that I did have to have it operated on, even though I felt like I was non-symptomatic. And then from that moment, from April until November, I just sat on it like a silent kind of time bomb in my head. Not talking about it, just trying to process that.

And I did really well with that, actually. And by the time I got to the operation, I was ready. And Michael really helped me on that journey. And but what I wasn't prepared for was after. And how hard we found that, the kind of recovery. Because I did understand that I could possibly, my short-term memory could be affected. but I just had no idea how badly or how that would manifest itself.

I wasn't aware of how dory I was. As mums, you'll know what I mean by that. Just keep swimming. But I knew that I was getting better. And as the person who had no short-term memory, I was kind of in a 30-second time loop. um like i couldn't i couldn't watch a film um because i would forget the story i couldn't watch the news or tv i didn't know what i was watching i didn't if michael came out of the loo by the time

he came out i'd be like oh my god you're here and he'd been with me all day i it was um but i was very happy about it i was happy in myself but it's interesting if anybody's got a loved one out there who has Alzheimer's or dementia, the reason why you don't pick them up on a mistake that they've made is because they're happy, not knowing. So if they make a mistake and you go, no, it wasn't then. It was then what you're doing is flagging you've got a problem which makes them feel different to how they were feeling before.

They were probably feeling blissfully unaware and suddenly it's been brought to their attention that they're making mistakes and that they are struggling with something. And whenever that happened to me or somebody slightly shamed me because I didn't really make sense about something, I would go into a shame spiral

which then had a knock-on effect, you know, to my mood and everything else. So actually, I went through most of it blissfully unaware, but it was the people around me that were struggling, my family, my loved ones, Michael. You know, it was hard on them. And they had to have faith that I was getting better. day I could feel a small

wins happening for me but for them they were seeing wins happening on a weekly basis not so much every day but I didn't know to verbalise them because I didn't know

anything was wrong with me it was such a mad a mad time but I would say I had a major breakthrough at about six months and me and Michael were like oh hi

oh hi are you back hi hi And what was really funny Because I said to Michael Because I was having these wins Every week I'd look at him And I'd go

I'm back And he'd laugh Because he'd think Yeah you're back to last week No you're not You're not You're definitely not back back And then the next week I'd go

You know last week I said I'm back I wasn't But I am really really out Yeah That's so fun Patients of a science. That leads us on to your podcast, begin again,

because that is all about reinventing yourself and, I guess, embracing a new stage of your life, whether that is midlife or as you've experienced after a very traumatic health experience. You know, what's the one lesson that you've learned after your health scare? Is there a new motto that you live by or a new kind of attitude towards your life? I definitely have thought quite a lot about like bucket lists

and isn't it funny that people do a bucket list when they're dying? Why do we do that? Everybody go like a bucket now and just start doing it. I mean, number one, when you're dying, you probably either won't have the time to do it or the strength or the health or the money or whatever. Like start saving now and do your bucket list while you're fit and healthy.

So that was a big one for me. And I think a big one for me was think about, stop worrying about what other people are thinking and feeling. What do you need? What did I need? What do I need to do? Do I need to sleep?

Go to sleep. Don't think, oh, I promised I'd go to. Really, for a few months, just be ultimately thinking about my physical health and mental needs. And that actually changed a lot for Michael. After I started doing that, he said, I can feel a difference in you. You feel more like yourself again because I. I could feel that there was a distance between us, but I kept thinking, what does he need me to be for me to be normal?

It was like I was pretending to be normal, kind of like in the way that I was trying to think what he needed. And then I had a counselling session with this brilliant counsellor who I've had for 15 years. And when I hit a bit of a wall, I'll say, can I fit in two sessions with you, one this week, one next week, and I think we'll have done it. Sometimes it's one session.

She knows me so well. It's like, reframe it, put it like this, park it over there, and I go, done. And I did one session with her, and I said, it's like, none of the Tetris blocks are fitting, and I can't, ah! And she said, what do you need? And it was like, ping! Oh, I've forgotten that. Oh!

So I just started doing what I wanted to do. And he said, you feel like you again. it's so weird it's amazing and it's really simple really but listening to myself and be myself stop thinking what other people want

what do you want I think as moms we all do that though we put the what do I need in a box and close the lid and put the box in the cupboard under the stairs and crack on with what everybody else needs and don't ever really think okay what what is it that I need to the point where sometimes if you

ask a mum, what do you need? They can't even answer. They don't know, yeah. Well, I had to think about it. I had to think about it, but I did know that it more than, more than she wasn't really asking me, what do I need? But she was saying, you've forgotten to think about that because what do I need comes in a moment. It's quite hard to write down a list of not obvious things like a holiday or some time off. I was like, it's little day-to-day time things.

I need some help. I need to go out and get some shopping. I need to go to bed without thinking, what are they trying to, it's exhausting trying to figure out what other people are thinking. Don't do other people's thinking for them. Just do your own. So back in the day when you were doing Big Brother, it felt like this was Davina.

And now I feel like you're Davina the amplifier. of the big conversations, I feel like you've taken some whopping topics and shifted the national conversation on the menopause being one of the prime examples. What's it like knowing you've personally really helped thousands of women and changed their lives for the better and kicked a large proportion of us up the ass and made us do something about a problem that was bothering us and we didn't know about. Well, I like to feel like I'm part of a team. so I interviewed the great Kate Muir on Begin Again yesterday

and you know she wrote a book about the menopause way before me so she she was the one that asked me if I would make a documentary with her so you know there were so many mariella frostrop she was shouting about it ages before there was we are a proper big gang of women and we've all come together with the menopause mandate and we are trying to shift thinking around the menopause in Parliament and around the country and at work and trying to make effective kind of change for women and help men understand and bring more men on board as allies.

Well, God, I love a man who wants to learn. Boy or son wants to learn about. about the menopause, oh my God, so good. So it's really nice to feel part of a collective. And what I'm seeing is that it's not just me. We're all ready for it. We are all hungry and ready and willing to change, to move the dial. And, you know, even around the science now is outstanding.

I was talking to Kate about it yesterday. The science around hormone replacement therapy and Alzheimer's is so amazing. I don't want to talk about it because I really want it to come out of her mouth and I want it to be completely factually correct. And I'm always aware that, you know, people that aren't qualified making these big statements online. So listen to it. It'll be coming out very soon. But she, she's doing unbelievable.

Unbelievable research and looking at all the papers, and she's a fantastic menopause amplifier. And with birth, one of the things I loved, I met somebody that said they loved giving birth, and I was going down the obstetrician route. I was 20 weeks pregnant, and I was like, what? You what?

You enjoyed giving birth? I've never heard anybody say that ever. In fact, as a pregnant person, people had only kind of told me their horror stories. So I just thought it was the most dangerous thing That's ever going to happen to me You know, I was terrified That's why I was going down the obstetric route

So I thought, I want to enjoy giving birth What would help me do that? Then I called her and I said, could I meet your midwife? And she said, yeah, midwives quite often deliver babies Without an obstetrician around Because obstetrician only come when there's a problem So if you haven't got a problem, you don't need one. I was like, what?

Oh, why can just give birth with her? Midwives? Yeah. Can I do that at home with a first baby? Yeah. I think I'd quite like that. And suddenly I went from being like extreme medical intervention to none. At home, you know, who am I? Like it turned into a total hippie. But what it made me realize was how comfortable I felt about deciding what I wanted and that somebody had helped me make. that a reality and I thought that lots and lots of women don't have those midwives to hand with all that information and even I think first time mothers they are the most beautiful vulnerable powerful protective petrified in wonder women like that thing of

Whatever any medical professional will tell you you will believe because your baby's safety is paramount. And that makes you vulnerable because you don't know the correct information. And I really, really felt strongly about bringing out a book because I did, and I have had the feeling that in some areas, Britain seems to be following America a little bit and going down that kind of lets medicalize birth.

more and I'm not anti a medicalised birth. Like this book is like pro-elective caesarians, we're pro epidurals, we're pro, whatever you need, we want you to get. But we are also pro knowing all the facts before you make these decisions. We are also pro helping you have a home birth first time if you want one. How do you get that? We want you to know the facts on the stats and the safety of everything. How long after your waters have broken can you wait to be induced?

How long can you go over term before you have to be induced? We all know that being induced is tough on a mum. You go from naught to 60 and it is freaking terrifying. And, you know, what can we do to help women? potentially avoid that situation. Just a reminder that this episode of the NetMams podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mammaia. As well as award-winning nappies with P-Zones that enhance absorption, we love Mammaeer wipes. Plastic-free and gentle enough to use on your little one from birth.

They make nappy changes so much easier. Head to your nearest Aldi store to check out the entire Mammaia range. So the book absolutely sounds like an essential buy for anyone who is even thinking about starting a family. And we are thrilled to be joined by your co-author, Midwife Marley Henry. Marley, welcome. Hi, we made it. So we made it. So Marley, what made you want to come on board with this amazing project?

Well, I mean, come on. you know, Davina, come on now. This lady. No, I mean, I think, you know, when I was first approached about the book, I kind of got an understanding as to what Davina was trying to achieve. And it really resonated with me, the fact that she wanted to write a book for women who didn't just want a particular birth or weren't just kind of anchor towards going down a certain path, but I wanted to know about all of their options

and I wanted the truth, you know. And that kind of really sat well with me because that's what I'm all about. So I don't like to tell people what to do. Obviously, I want the best for absolutely everybody. And it just made sense that I got involved with it. So I said, yeah, of course I will. And that was it, really.

It's such an amazing book, honestly. So between the two of you, you have, gathered so many birth stories and expert insights. I mean, the experts in this book, they're just brilliant. DeVina, were there any birth stories that completely florid you, like things that, you know, that you just didn't know about birth? I mean, there are too many to pick out any individual ones. And also, I don't particularly want to make a big deal out of one person because everybody in this book counts. But I think what is interesting is that we have tried to find every different type of story

so that anyone having an experience should be able to find a story in there that partly they'll be able to relate to or something they will understand or think, oh, I feel seen, somebody else has been through this and this is what happens. Or somebody might share a story and then are learning at the end of it and they'll go, oh, I hadn't thought of that, you know. So that was really important to me.

I just want to quickly pick up something about Marley was that I found Marley on Instagram. And it is exactly that, the truth. And we don't care what you do or how you do it. We just want you to be armed with all the information that you need to make you feel safe. And I love Marley for that. And she and I are on exactly the same page. and it was like literally coming across gold when I found Molly. I was like, it was so good.

And a great communicator and brilliant on Instagram and great at getting forward messages sometimes that are quite overwhelming and worrying in a really straightforward, pragmatic and practical way, which is exactly what you want. You don't want fluff, fearmongering, you know, you just need the info. So that's what was so brilliant about So the fact that she wanted to come on board Was just so good But the stories are always what make it

Because it's real lived experience And a book that I was obsessed with When I was pregnant was called Spiritual Midwifery by Ina Mae Gaskin And it also had It had her stories in it Of the labours that she'd experienced as a midwife and those lived experiences

and all the different types of birth that she experienced as a midwife gave me great comfort I thought I can prepare myself for every eventuality and actually when you're pregnant it is good to look at all the stories don't imagine

that everything's going to be absolutely perfect it is important to arm yourself with what the journey to a cesarian can look like when you think you're going to have a natural labour and then suddenly you have to have a caesarian. Part of something that's not good is when it's a trauma for you because you weren't expecting that

because, you know, I didn't want to be somebody who was like wedded to a home birth because if I went and had a hospital birth, I'd feel like I failed. I don't want any woman to feel like they failed. If you don't get exactly the birth you want, I want you to feel prepared. We want you to feel prepared

because you know what else might be in store if you don't get exactly what you want. Do you know what I mean? It's the information. That's what I'm trying to say. It gives you everything. And the other thing about is the experts and things like having a clinical psychologist who specialises in birth trauma and all of these kind of resources that you can go to, God forbid, if something complicated happens, or about pelvic health, you know, sometimes post-birth, you might need a little bit of help. with your pelvic floor.

There's all of that in their breathing. Dr. Louise Oliver is amazing around breathing and breath work. So there's just, we've got something for everyone. So, Marley, as someone who is at the front line of labour and birth and delivery, what do you think parents most often misunderstand about labour? I know that when I was approaching my first labour, I misunderstood pretty much everything. And there wasn't a wonderful book called birthing.

And I did have to have that situation where someone said, oh, yeah, you're going to have a cesarian. And all of my ideals went out of the window. Is that is that one of the misunderstandings that it's going to go the way you think it is? I think historically, yes. I think people, probably because of social media, people are becoming more and more aware now. and that, you know, things don't always go as they had hoped, perhaps.

But I think one of the biggest, or maybe two biggest misunderstandings, are one, the length of time it takes. Particularly things like induction, for example. So people throw around the word induction of labour, like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm being induced on Saturday thinking they're going to have their baby in their hands on Saturday. Tuesday comes, you know, three days later, the induction hasn't worked, you know. And the amount of women I get, said to me, but I wouldn't be induced and nothing happened. No one told me that it might not work.

The drugs they give me might not do anything to my body. So they weren't, you know, told about that. So, yeah, so I think that's a big thing, not understanding the length of time. And also not understand or misunderstanding the fact that you have your own bodily autonomy. So every test, every examination, every intervention, all these things that you may well be offered at some point during your pregnancy or during your birth, they're all optional. Everything. So when I see online, you know, I've seen forums or I see on social media or, you know, I wasn't allowed. My doctor said that, I wasn't allowed to do this. I wasn't allowed to do that. I was never allowed. That shouldn't be a, that should be a non-issue. You know, people shouldn't be writing. I wasn't allowed. And they may have been made to feel like that. But actually, every, um, every choice you get is you're the one who should be making the decision. You know, your body is your own.

And what we're doing is health professionals is giving you the information, evidence-based information, and then leaving it over to you to make the decision. So understanding that you are the one in charge of your body and understanding that labor, it can be very, very quick for some people, super quick. And for some people, it can be really, really long. And I think some people just misunderstand or don't realize how long, that can be, especially birth partners, you know,

can be a real drag. 24 hours later and the birth partner's like, I need to go to sleep now. Yes. It's very tiring. It's very tiring being a birth partner, isn't it? But, you know, obviously, you know, we have our birth plan and we're told to like write it out and it's, you know, very much taken to heart

by a lot of moms to be, especially first time. And things don't always go to plan like Wendy described. Divina, for your three breaths, did they all go smoothly or did you have any unexpected hiccups to deal with? Yeah, I had one moment with Chester where Pam went to listen for the heartbeat and then she listened again. And then she listened again and then she called an ambulance. And then she said, I want you to come over and lie down with me here and I lay down and she listened again. and it was there. And she said, I'm going to keep the ambulance coming.

She said, I think you are transitioning. And his heartbeat sounds really healthy. And it may just have been that I couldn't find it. But the ambulance staff were in the hallway, having cups of tea. And he was my third, so he came out quite quickly. And she kept them there in case there was any need for them once he was born. but he came out and cried the minute he came out and was absolutely fine

and not all his stats were great and it was all fine so that was quite full on I was at home you know and I thought wow like but you know what was amazing about Pam there wasn't a hint of fear test nothing

test nothing ambulance coming lie down find it and she was just absolutely completely matter of fact so I was don't forget she delivered Holly Ann Tilly I looked at her and I thought

if I need to worry about something I would know I would see it in her and I thought I'm just going to just have faith that Pam Pam isn't worried she's just being vigilant and and everything

was fine but it was that was quiet quite a thing but for all the others I mean Holly was 36 hours so Marley you were absolutely right I had false labour for 12 hours and then went

into real labour and it went on for 24 and it was just so slow and then I ended up I ended up with me sitting on a loo and my legs apart and Pam with a finger up my vaj

so a medical term Molly her finger inside my vagina trying to manually move my cervix that last kind of half a centimetre but we had to wait for a contraction to do that so she's got her finger up my vagina I'm holding onto the walls like that on either side of the law and she's like literally when I have a contraction she's like and then third time it's the sound of it sounds like a squeaking door. And it was like, Edgon, and she was like, right, get in there, get that boy me out. I like Pam.

Everyone needs a Pam. She was so good. She used to, she couldn't say little. She said, she used to say, lickle. So sweet. She got, oh, we've got a little bit of like, mucus here, you know, great. Woo. Lickle.

She died too soon. She died very young and it was really, really sad. So this book's dedicated to her. And Marley also did a dedication. Do you know what, Doreena, something you said a little while ago about Pam, about how you was looking at her face and you knew that everything was okay. And that kind of scenario, I liken it to flying on a plane. So, I mean, I never used to have plane anxiety, but I have done as I've got older.

And when I'm on a plane and we're taking off, you know, It's very, very noisy when you take off. Then suddenly the engines kind of, they don't shut down, obviously, but it goes very quiet when you kind of get up. I dart my eyes across to the air host, the air stewards, right? And I look at them intently. And I'm thinking, do they look okay? Do they look panicked?

Because if they look okay, I'm okay. And then obviously the seatbelt signs come off and they start walking down with their, you know, drinks and everything, I'm like, oh, everything's fine now. And it's exactly the same in birth. If you are, no matter how much we prepare people for birth, which is what I do, If you are with somebody that makes you feel so safe and calm, then you're much more likely to have, you know, a really, really good birth experience.

And that sounds like what you got from Pam, you know, which is fantastic. Yeah, it was. She was amazing. So let's quickly talk then about post-birth and the fourth trimester because those raw early weeks are tough. and I just wish there had been more advice when I was doing it about those basic rules to live by as a new mum when you have a newborn.

Marley, over to you. What are those rules? Well, I don't like rules. The thing is, I think, one, we're all different. You know, we all live in different situations. You know, some people have got partners. Some people are our single parents and this.

You know, I could go into somebody saying, right, you know, stay in bed for five days, don't do anything. They've got other toddlers running around and they're a single parent and they haven't got any family close by. So what I would start by doing is, by saying is work with what you've got. You know, there is no rule. There is no textbook. It's whatever works for you.

There are certain things that you have to, you know, be cautious of, I guess. Things like, you know, driving too soon after a cesarian and that kind of thing. But number one is if you are not trying to look after yourself as much as you can, then you're not going to be able to do the same for your baby. You know, so as much as you can, no matter how much support you've got or how much support you haven't got, actually, I know it's easy for me to sit here and say, but try to prioritise yourself because once you prioritize yourself, you can prioritize your baby, you know, and that can just be simple things like,

turning your phone off if you're feeling absolutely exhausted rather than sitting there scrolling through your phone and answering everybody's messages and things like that just give yourself an hour or two's piece and just turning your phone off but also accessing services as well

making sure you've got the contact numbers for your midwives, the contact numbers for your health visitor and your GP and not feeling afraid to reach out if you feel there's anything wrong physically, mentally emotionally or anything with a baby then don't ever be afraid to kind of

call up and ask for help, you know, and that's about anything, whether it's feeding, whether it's, you're feeling sore down below or you're worried about your stitches if you've had a cesarean, anything at all, they'll always reach out and try and get some advice where you can. That's such good advice. DeVida, thinking back to your own fourth trimester periods, is there anything that you wish you'd done differently back then? Yeah, I mean, you learn so much, I think, the first time you have a baby. so there's a lot of learning to be done with that that you then think subsequently you go right

my big thing was how many people I had to visit in the fourth trimester after the first baby and very very quickly I was like I don't want any of these people around I'm so overwhelmed and I just want to look at this baby and skin to skin

and hug and stare and bathe and spend an hour changing a nappy and marvelling at a body and the hands and the face and the, you know, it was just like, you never get that time back. And what happens inevitably,

and I try and be really sensitive to mums when I go and see a mum, what happens is you're desperate to have a cuddle of the baby. But yeah, it's not your baby. I remember, feeling oh yeah have a cuddle of the baby and then it was so interesting it was like I really want it back please can I do you know how when you cuddle a kitten and the cat goes like a bit like oh god please bring me my kitten back like I that's how I felt I need I need to have this baby back I need please can

you just give them so really take it easy I took it easy the second and third time round and I sort of said like first couple of weeks, family, like direct family only, you know, mum, dad, siblings, like, that's it. For the first couple of weeks, two, three weeks, even maybe a month. And then it's like, okay, mates can start coming around. And when you're going to come around, I'm going to give you a job, please can you bring me something to eat, or please could you, like, unload the dishwasher, or please could you give the kitchen, worktops, what, like, if I ever go and visit, a friend of mine that's had a baby, it's like, don't give me the baby, give me the chores. That's what you need.

Yeah, absolutely. So before we let you go, ladies, I'd love to know what the one piece of advice you'd give some expectant parents listening today to take away with you. Well, I would probably start by saying... Other than read the book, obviously. No. Yeah, well, that's a given, isn't it?

Trust your intuition. Yes. Oh, that's so hard, though. I know, I know. But during pregnancy, during birth, and afterwards as well, when you've got your baby. You know your baby better than anybody. I mean, you know, you always hear stories of people who have gone to sort of help for their children time and time again because now I was listened because they've, you know, they've had a feeling about something. Trust your intuition and, you know, don't ever kind of rub things off as always just, I'm just worrying too much or whatever.

trust your intuition and don't if you have more than one baby don't compare don't compare pregnancies don't compare the children all your pregnancies will probably be different all of your children will be different all your babies would be different you might have a baby that sleeps through the night is seven months old and your next one doesn't sleep through the night until they're eight years old like mine for example right so so don't ever assume that your children are going to be same and don't compare yourself to other moms. We all do it, you know, and it's a real bad habit. But don't replace that to other people. But I think trust your intuition. And also, if there's

something that you are being offered and you really, it doesn't feel right to you, then you know, don't feel like you can't ask questions. Ask questions. Ask questions. Ask questions. And that's kind of relating to the healthcare system. What about you, Davina? I just want to say those were brilliant, Raleigh. They were so spot on. I'd probably say it as an expectant parent. I, as a first time parent, I phone my friend Katie

and I said to her, look, you've got four girls and they're all so nice. Like, what's... Give me the lowdown. Like, what do I do? She went, it's quite simple. Love and boundaries.

I was like, are you serious? Is that it? She went, yep. Love. and boundaries. And I wonder, what do you mean by boundaries? I didn't really understand what that word meant. And she said, if you are going to say something,

you know, if you do this, this will happen. Or I'll do this and I'll do this. If you are ever going to lay down the law somewhere, you've got to lay it down and not. Because she said that her kids, she was also a social worker. And she said that she felt that her kids felt safe, safe because when she lay down a boundary, they stepped over it, she enforced that, whatever she

said. So I'll give you an example once I was in Australia and I was really looking forward to going to a family party with my kids. And you've got to be careful what you lay down as a boundary because you might regret it. If you're going to say you're going to have to enforce it, don't lay down a boundary. You are not prepared to enforce. And I said to my eldest, I can't remember what it was. It was something ridiculous, you know. Don't do that again, please. And then it was like, please don't do that.

Look, if you do that again, we're not going to go to this family party tonight. And I knew they were all really looking forward to it, but so was I. And she did it again. And I said, right, we're not going. And we didn't go. I was like, wow. Damn it. I've got to talk about the best.

Oh, my goodness. You know, sort of just sort of gone, we're not going to go to the bakery tomorrow morning. You know, something's like really, that I wouldn't mind not doing. But that's what I mean. When you say I'm going to do something and then you do it, they feel weirdly safe. Even though it's a strict thing, it's not strict and unreasonable. You've given them two or three opportunities to do the thing that you've asked them to do. Then you lay down the boundary.

And that was like the single most brilliant piece of parenting because my children weren't frightened of me, but they knew because I was actually pretty liberal and easygoing about most things, but if I really needed them to stop doing something like taking off their seatbelt in the back seat, if I'm driving, there was a phase of that. And that stopped quite quickly when we said we're not going to go to Godstom Farm, you know, and then they did it again, and nobody got to go to Godston. Oh my God, I spent my toddler years in Godston Farm. I love Godston Farm.

Me too. I love Godson Farm. One of their pigs, DeVina. No way. I actually got stuck when I was pregnant in the kind of indoor soft play. In the soft play. Where I had to crawl through to get a toddler

and I actually got my big fat pregnant belly wedged and had to be rescued by this stuff. That's amazing. Wendy. Oh my goodness. That play area was so good. I spent every Monday there for at least four years.

Yeah, I'm with you. It's a dream. For anybody listening, it's in Surrey. It's very good. And it's worth visiting. And hopefully you won't find a pregnant Wendy stuck in a tube somewhere. Well, you'll find another pregnant one is stuck in a tube. Every week there'll be a different pregnant women are stuck in a tube.

Davina, on that note, thank you so much. And Marley, you have just been a joy to talk to both of you. Oh, thanks for having us. So grateful to both of you for joining us today. It has been wonderful to talk to you both. Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. us. Thank you. Don't forget you can get in touch with us on all social channels, Instagram, Facebook,

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