The Netmums Podcast - S18 Ep6: DR BILLY GARVEY on understanding your child's mental health and his tips for Parents

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

In this episode of The Netmums Podcast, Louise and JB welcome Dr. Billy Garvey, a developmental paediatrician and author of the insightful book 10 Things to Know About Your Child's Mental Health. This chat covers the crucial topic of children's mental health, particularly focusing on anxiety and how it manifests in children of different ages.Dr. Garvey shares invaluable advice on recognising signs of anxiety in children and the differences in how boys and girls may express their feelings. He discusses the importance of creating a nurturing environment that fosters emotional security, emphasising the need for parents to engage in both co-regulation and self-regulation to help their children navigate their emotions effectively.The conversation also touches on the pressures of modern parenting, the significance of unconditional love, and the role of communication in fostering a strong parent-child relationship. In this episode:• Recognising anxiety in children and its impact on behaviour• The differences in how boys and girls experience anxiety• The role of co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional development• Practical tips for parents to support their child's mental health• The importance of creating a nurturing environment and the concept of 'sanctuaries'This episode of The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mamia.Read more expert help on Netmums.com and join the conversation on socials @Netmums.JB and Louise also want to hear your parenting stories, questions and dilemmas! So please share them with us at [e-mail] and we can bring you into the conversations that matter on The Netmums Podcast.This podcast is brought to you by Netmums: backed by experts, trusted by parents. Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

This episode of The NetMum's podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mammaia. If you're a first time or a new parent, there's a lot you don't realize you'll suddenly have very strong opinions on. Car parking bays, the price of fresh fruit, screen time and also nappies. Because no one wants a nappy nightmare in the middle of the night or during a busy playgroup session. And let's not talk about the potential disasters that can happen on a long car journey. Oh no. In those early weeks through to the toddler phase, you need all the support you can get and

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dermatologically tested and suitable from newborn, which is reassuring when everything touching your baby's new delicate skin suddenly feels important. Thoughtfully designed, parent approved and made for real life. You can find Aldimamia Nappi's in store now. Hello and welcome to the NetMams podcast where real parenting conversations happen. I'm Louise Burke, NetMem's editor-or-director. And I'm J.B. Gill. Yay. We're here to talk about all things parenting and get advice from experts on the things that matter most.

And this week we're delving into a more serious but totally relevant conversation. And we hope it's super useful because like I always say, as parents need all the help we can get. Right, J.B. Definitely. I mean, sometimes you feel like you're drying and an indecision, but we are focusing on mental health this week. And if you ever found yourself thinking that is this a phase or something's not quite right when it comes to your child's behaviour, then this is the episode for you. Our special guest is here to help us spot the signs that your child might be struggling with anxiety and help give tips as well on what you can actually do to aid them. So author of the brilliant new book, 10 Things to Know About Your Child's Mental Health, Dr Billy Garvey, is joining us for our parenting conversation today. I was knee-deep in this book, by the way, last night. He is a developmental paediatrician with over 25 years experience supporting children and families from infancy right through to adolescence.

And he's also a dad of three. So that matters. Billy, welcome to the Netman's podcast. Hey, Billy. Thanks for having me. and JV. It's wonderful to be talking with you. Yeah, all the way from Australia, right? All the way from Australia, yeah.

I'm a massive fan of over there. I was recently at the London Book Fair and just fell in love with London again, which was beautiful. But hopefully I'll be back again soon as well. Absolutely, yeah. So let's start with the big one. A lot of parents listening are going to be wondering, how do I know if my child is genuinely struggling with anxiety?

There's so much talk about it. we're in a mental health crisis in the UK. It's on the full front of a lot of parents' minds. But how do you know whether it's not just having a wobble or going through a phase and there is something to maybe worry about? Yeah, it's a great question and it's one that we often get asked in clinic as well. So I work in a big tertiary pediatric hospital. It takes years to get to us and people are really stressed about do I need to be on that wait list or is this just, you know, normal or what we call typical or normative anxiety? And that can happen for a really young age, we know kids go through a window, you know, you probably remember with your kids,

both of you and I certainly do with mine, of that kind of stranger danger in the younger years, separation anxiety when they're a bit older. And then it's really interesting. When you get into school, you start getting social anxiety, performance anxiety, wanting to fit in, wanting to be as good as everyone else at everything. And that's actually really typical. That's normal to go through all those phases, we start to worry that it might be a clinical concern when it starts lasting for more than a few weeks and it starts impacting how well they're functioning, which is essentially them living happy, healthy lives, participating in school, feeling safe, they're, you know, really engaging with their friends, being at home and feeling

like they're connected with parents, things like that. If anxiety is getting in the way of those things, then we really worry that it might be something that we need to do about it. Yeah. So if you get to that stage where it's a genuine concern and it is a worry and something needs to be done. Does it present differently in different children of different ages or are there universal signs that you can pick up on? It's a great question, J.B. And it's really interesting. Little kids and teenagers actually present more like the elderly in anxiety and depression. We kind of, you know, as an adult, like I've suffered with depression and I felt that low, you know, kind of really flat and can kind of recognize that I felt like that. But

Little kids can't do that, and often they're agitated. So one of the key clinical features is just being really agitated. And often those kids get labeled in classrooms as being like a bad kid or the naughty kid or the one that doesn't listen. And actually, I always say if there's ever a kid in class that's having a hard time and acting out and lashing out, if you had to guess, you'd guess that he's anxious because it's such a common feature and anxiety from four years of age up until 17 years of age is the most common mental illness in our kids.

So it's such a good point, J.B., that it's different. The other really common things that kids have, because they're not good at coming up to us and saying, hey, I'm really worried about stuff. They often get headaches and tummy aches and they feel really tired. It's just a manifestation. They really are experiencing that. They're not making it up. It's just their brain can't say, hey, I'm worried.

And so they just feel nauseous and sick. And often those kids go through, like, lots of different, you know, investigations to get what's wrong with their tummy and stuff like, that, but actually they're anxious. And I don't know if it's worth going through. There's a bunch of other symptoms such as problems with sleep. Not being able to focus is actually a really important one because a lot of children get misdiagnosed with ADHD.

Yeah, I was going to bring that up later. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I literally believe you're all over it. Yeah. The diagnosis of ADHD in this country have absolutely rocketed both with children, young people and adults. Obviously, it's well documented. in the news lines, even today it was in the news lines about how there's equal diagnosis between boys and girls now, where it was recognised more in boys, I think, historically.

Because also gender does play a role in this, doesn't it? Because how would you say anxiety might show up differently in boys and girls? Great, great question. So, yeah, boys are more likely to have irritable temperaments, which means they've got a lower threshold for kind of finding things frustrating in their environment. and getting anxious about what their world is like. If you think about, you know, from gender, we're kind of more comfortable with boys being angry than we are with boys being scared.

Yeah. So a lot of boys start burying that feeling from a very young age. Like, I can't be afraid to do something. I need to grit my teeth and just do it. Interestingly, girls in teenage years have more anxiety than boys. And one of the reasons that is because of the social pressure that comes on them. So when they hit puberty, there's all this cultural pressure that comes and they become more anxious. And so there's this really important differences between boys and girls.

But it's, yeah, you're right. It's really common. And the interesting thing about ADHD and anxiety is that 40 to 60 percent of kids who have ADHD will have anxiety. So it's almost as likely that they have it as if they don't. So they're really commonly together. Yeah. I was reading something last night actually in the paper from a G. who was actually ADHD himself.

And he was talking about how diagnosis can shift as well, depending on what environment those people are in, because it will bring out different behaviours or anxieties depending on their environment. I don't necessarily want to go down a social media bunny hole with this, but I know that obviously can influence. Like you talked about cultural pressures just then. And we know, you know, it's no secret that social media is having a big,

influence on young people's anxiety levels and mental health. Negative impact as well, the research is showing. But how do you feel about, you talked about, you talk a lot in your book about environment and the sort of environments that you create for your children in the home. You talk about sanctuaries, which I love to be reading about. Do you and tell us, talk to us about environment and how parents can, what environment parents can try and offer to give their children to ease any anxiety. And by the way, look, I don't want to load more to-dos on a parent's list because it's all like everyone's busy and

exhausted. But if we do want to make some changes, what changes could you suggest? Yeah, and it's such a good point, Louise, first before, you know, if you're at, I'm just surviving getting through every day, you know, you need to think about before you add something in, what can I drop and where can I get more support and we talk about dropping the demand and increasing their support a lot in clinic. And you're right. Another thing we talk about is sanctuaries. In sanctuaries, I spend more time looking for sanctuaries for kids and I do diagnosing and more starting them on medication for things like anxiety and ADHD and depression.

And a sanctuary, as you know, a sanctuary is really an opportunity where it's scheduled and it's just to enjoy the child. And a lot of the families that I meet in clinic, I'll ask them when was the last time you enjoyed your child? and it's a long time ago. And I have three kids. My partner and I both work a lot, but there's every time, every day,

there's some time where I'm just for minutes, not hours, but for minutes, just enjoying my child. And I think sanctuaries can be a really helpful thing to look in our family and say, am I getting time that's protected to just enjoy this child? Because that's kind of a big reason we have them,

isn't it, to like celebrate someone and just to nurse them, you don't have them to yell at them, and like battle with them to get in the car and to blood of the teeth and go to the toilet and get to bed and eat their fruits and, you know, those aren't the joys of parenting. No, you're totally, I'm totally with you there. Yeah, and I think it's the little things as well. Like, I often think there's a hierarchy in what kids need.

And the first thing that every single child in the world needs is to feel safe. And a lot of the kids that say they're struggling to attend school, they don't feel safe at school and it's not that school isn't safe. They just don't feel safe there. And it might be because they're neurodivergent. It might be because they have a learning difficulty. It might be because they've experienced trauma. It might be because something's going on at home that they can't leave.

And so safety is the baseline for everything. And then we think about the next thing on that is love. And unconditional love is a really important thing for kids. And all of us as parents, the three of us would say, I unconditionally love my child. The interesting thing is the international data shows us when you interview teenagers, for example, 90% of their parents say my kid knows that I unconditionally love them. And I think it's just over 50% of those teenagers say that I feel unconditionally loved. So there's this big gap and kind of trying to think about does my kid actually feel unconditionally loved. And the challenge with unconditional love is you prove it in the hard times.

You're proven in the times when it's doubting at you, not listening to saying you're the worst dad in the world. you know those guy things you have to and it's not that you walk and get away with it it's just you still stay there yeah absolutely I definitely I haven't had too many of those because my my children are still preteen but we're definitely especially my oldest getting closer to that point you know where it's just like it's not fair and I don't think and then you know obviously you know I'm sure all we all do you know I still go in at bedtime I still give him a hug I still say I love you you know if he says you know no I'm not talking to you or whatever and it's like well it's all right I still love you and that's a really hard

hard thing to do. But you, of course, talk about the fact that children need to feel secure and valued, not necessarily constantly praised, but from my experience, and certainly in the early days, as I say, with my first, you know, every book I read, everything that I heard was always about reinforcing praise and, you know, obviously encouraging your children, which your parent can be conflicting, right? Definitely. This is a hard thing. I didn't want my book and podcast and everything I'm doing to be more noise out there. So I kind of thought, is there a space for someone who is, you know, works clinically and trains others clinically in this because I think there's a lot of opinion out there about like, this is what I wish I had as a kid or this is what I do

with my kids. They turned out okay. So do it with yours. But praise is really interesting. And you kind of touched on it there, J.B, about like, you know, you don't want to always be reinforcing praise because the problem is the child learns, you'll like me if I, if I prefer. form if I achieve, if I listen to you, if I succeed. And I meet a lot of kids in clinic. I meet high performance athletes that are like the best in Australia at certain sports as teenagers. And they are. They're just humming with anxiety. They don't have any friends. They're really struggling in every aspect of their life except for the sport. And their entire identity is tied to it. And I really worry for those kids, I look for other avenues for them to explore, to enjoy. Every

single kid I have met in clinic, I ask, what do you like doing? What are you good at? And often kids can't recognize the, the both of them. And so I want kids to be able to say that they're good at something, but not because we're externally validating it, but it's because they feel it. They put effort into it. And that's the difference between you're a good boy, which is person praise. And I really love how much of an effort you're making a share of your sister. That's process praise. And that helps them feel and connect. I'm trying and someone's noticing that I'm doing it well. That's, I, when I read that in the book, I think I read it over three times because I was like, right, I've got to get this. Person praises this and, you know, process praise is this. Because

it's one of those things that you can so easily slip into go, oh, you're great. Oh, you're so clever. Oh, you know, it's all down to the person rather than the drawing or the cake they made or what job they did and clean the car. Totally. It's funny because we've just had Christmas, and I remember sitting with my daughter and she's four. And I was, you know, talking about Santa and stuff like that.

And she was like, if I'm good, will I get presents? And I was like, you'll get presents anyway. Like, it's not, you know,

I don't want her to think that. You only get that. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? If you're a good girl, like you're a good boy. Like I think we just get told that too much. And it even goes to one thing that people don't agree with me on is this idea that we shouldn't force kids to say please and thank you or sorry.

Because I think that performative bit of like just do it because I told you they miss an opportunity to learn why. We actually want kids to choose like the highest level that kids can achieve in teenagers of moral development is they think about what the right thing is to do and they choose it. They don't do it because we're standing over them or they know there's going to be a punishment if they don't. and it's a real different to how we grew up. A lot of us grew up with like you just did those things because you were told to. Hard rules. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That classic like authoritarian parents. Yeah. Because you talk a lot about in your book about not for having to fix your child. So if your child is presenting any sort of behavioral, any anxiety, then you shouldn't try and leap in and fix it and put boundaries and changes. yourself. But if you're not fixing it then, because I know the urge to fix it is unbelievable, right, for parents. Because you want to fix it. You want to make things better. You're seeing

someone you love, like struggle and you're instinctively, you just want to fix it. So I can't blame parents wanting to do that. But if they're not doing that, what are you suggesting they do? Yeah, it's great. And we think about like, so say you and I meet up for a coffee. and you tell me you've had the worst morning of your life and you're devastated and you don't think, you know, you want to go on anymore. And I just say, that's an awful coffee morning. Totally. You know, like these kids have such big feelings that they feel like, you know, we probably

all three of this can remember our little kids like acting like the world is ending over a balloon popping or, you know, not sharing with them. And so they're these huge feelings that they have. And so if you're having that huge feeling moment, and I just said, Louise, it'll be better tomorrow. Or you should be grateful. Look how beautiful the day it is. Or I'm going to tell you what to do to fix it. You know, I'm completely missing an opportunity to connect with you to validate your experience, to let you have that and support you through it.

And what we talk about, yeah, once again in the book and I do a lot in clinic is we build emotional capacity in kids to regulate their emotions by co-regulating them. just actually saying, you know, I'm here. I'm sorry you're having this experience. And when kids get older, we still can problem solve, but we talk to them about what do you think is going to make this better instead of go and do this because we're not actually helping them learn the process of like, cool, I've gone through that emotion now. I can now access the top bits of my brain and say what needs to happen. And then they choose and say, I need to go and say sorry, you know, or next time I'm going to say you can't take that off me or whatever the skill set is that they're needing like it's a really important thing to think about what's going on underneath

for this kid and how can I connect with them validate their experience, regulate them back, sometimes put boundaries up as well and they remember no one's allowed to hit you and you're not allowed to hit anyone and then we think about what could we do to go back in and play well with your brother you know and then we go back and scaffold of whatever support is required and we reinforce it and say you make me such a great effort. It's really cool to see you playing with your brother so well. Instead of like go back in there and play with your brother right now and say sorry, like a lot of us, you know, that's in our own in us because that's what we grew up with,

but we know it doesn't work. They'll either won't do it or they'll do it reluctantly. Yeah. So, I mean, that's very, very interesting because, you know, especially when you've got, well, I've had siblings myself and we've had that experience. And sometimes it's difficult to. I find, anyway, that's just from my personal experience, it's difficult to relate that to a child

until they have, I would say, the emotional maturity to actively really grasp that. What age would you say you can, I guess, implement that sort of mindset? And for those children that are slightly younger, I'm thinking, you know, toddlers and things like that, which are obviously a lot more social, but still learning how to share and things like that, what sort of early rumblings would you say that parents should watch out,

for before a meltdown or like you know those big reactions. Can I just follow an unfoot J.B. said there because you, you, I love, like I love a metaphor and you use the volcano metaphor, don't you? Yeah, yeah. So it's like spotting. No, I'm not, I'm not going to take over now. You say, I want to highlight the metaphor because sometimes having a metaphor, it's easy to understand for us because I know you're the scientist and you're the expert, but for the person listening, it's always really helpful to have some sort of illustration to help. Definitely. And it's such a good reminder because I've been drawing that volcano very poorly in clinic for years and years and year. And, you know, the one in the book is much better than I can

actually draw it. And I often, often kids will draw it then for me when they come back into clinic. And the eye, yeah, which is really cool. Like I remember the first time a kid came back in and drew it and said, This is why it was like, things were so much better. I was like, what's helped you? And they were like, the volcano. And I was like, show me. And they drew it. This like nine-year-old girl, I think she was.

So it was just beautiful. The volcano is the idea of like a big explosion happens when these kids are really struggling. And if you think about, you know, the volcano goes up, then it erupts and then it comes down. And everyone wants to know what to do to stop it when it's exploding. And the reality is, especially a kid who's completely dysregulated, all you have to do is try and make them feel safe.

And this is a hard thing. Educators are the most important, like teachers are the most important professionals in the world. But a lot of my work, my PhD was working with them. I've worked in early education. A lot of the important thing with the kid who's completely dysregulated and is throwing chairs through windows in a classroom is if possible someone stays there with them

and not everyone abandons them and leaves them because then I know everyone feels unsafe, but that kid feels the least safe. And someone trying to be in the room with that kid and saying, this isn't okay, but I'm here. Like, I'm okay with this. I don't feel unsafe. And I do that a lot in clinic.

Kids kick off a lot in clinic because they're hearing all those negative things about themselves. So all that matters in the eruption is safety. In the cool down after everything's settled, a lot of parents spend a lot of time like sitting and talking to kids, you know, what you did was wrong, why did you do that? Like, what should you do next time?

You know, at the end of the bed conversation, I'll speak to you after dinner, whatever. That's really good for what we were talking about, you know, with unconditional love and saying there are conditions, there's boundaries, as consequences, but I'm here for you and reinforcing secure attachment. It's no good for teaching you how to not erupt the next time.

And when we actually learn how to do that is in the climb. And that's what the volcano is for, is that what we want to do is in the safest environments and the safest relationships, which is usually at home with a parent, catch early on low-level irritability, and just help regulate them and help them learn that. And often what my kids and a lot of families I meet in clinic end up finding is successful is to leave that environment that's overstimulating, the sibling that's annoying them, the playground that's upsetting them,

whatever's going on and just come out and calm them back down. co-regulation and then we don't stop anything we think about what will we like the child doing instead and then we roll back in and say let's go and do this together and i'm going to help you and we're going to do it together right and we can do that at any age then to totally you're the actual answer j b to your question is kids from about four to five years of age develop what's called theory of mind which is the understanding that someone has a different experience to them um and that's a really we shouldn't push too much expectation around empathy on kids that are younger than because it's, you know, the egocentric two to three-year-old

just doesn't conceptualise that, you know, mum spent so much time making this dinner and I've just thrown it across the table. Yeah, yeah. And, God, she must be so disappointed. Yeah. They just can't conceptualise that yet. So it's, you know, we shouldn't try.

We should try, which is really hard not to take that too personally. Yeah. Just a reminder, this episode of the NetMums podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mamia, As well as their award-winning nappies, we give their Mamia wipes hard recommended netmums. They are a parenting essential. They're plastic-free, gentle enough to use from birth and kind on sensitive newborn skin. Perfect for nappy changes and all the other unexpected messes no one warns you about. Head to your nearest Aldi Store to explore the full Mammaia range.

I don't want to get too heavy because obviously with mental health it can get quite, we can go quite. serious with it. Some parents listening might be dealing with much heavier concerns, where anxiety feels overwhelming or depression or even serious things like self-harm. What do you want them to know, like what should they take from your book or your learnings to help their situation at home? Yeah. Yeah, no. And it's interesting because the book intentionally starts with like an infant and younger kids about what are the foundations and things like attachment, emotional regulation, pro-social skills. But those are things that a lot of those kids have struggled with.

And it's not because they didn't have loving parents, but there might have been an attachment that wasn't secure and a temperament that wasn't picked up and is not, you know, kind of being supported in a way that's suited to it. And so, but then later in the book, yeah, I talk about teens that are anxious and depressed and self-harming and suicidal. And the point is to give people this skill set, I think that we know there's so many people that are just on long wait lists and can't access services.

And so the idea is like how do we in clinic translate the evidence of what we call mental health first aid to support those kids? And the thing that I would say is that I hope that those parents, you know, we know what happens to a lot of families when kids get like that is they shut down. There's so much shame. this is my fault as a parent and then just make it, you know, even more difficult to get help because they, they see us that are failing in themselves.

But actually it's not, it's often because of a child has a sensitive temperament, not because a parent has failed them. And we know that's 20 to 30% of kids. And so, and especially kids that are going through the teenage years really struggling with, you know, their identity and feeling connected to their peers, feeling like they're a failure or they, you know, they're not as good as everyone else. And what's really important is to get back to that, like, real connection piece and think about, you know, we talk about from the toddler to the teen,

including the teen, it's self-harming, is that saying, like, I'm so sorry that's happening to you. How can I help? Because I think a lot of the time we know those teenagers get a response of, you know, why are you doing that? Or don't you know how much this upsets me? And I understand those feelings from a parent with a kid who's really struggling, but it doesn't help the team.

It often makes the teen shut down and hide those feelings and those behaviors, whereas mental health first aid is all about, yeah, I'm here with you, and I might not have the answers. I'm really sorry you're experiencing this, but we're going to figure it out together. And a lot of teams don't hear that. It's a bit like you might have heard that they used to say like don't ask a child if they've ever not wanted to live. But that's actually wrong.

A lot of the evidence shows us that, kids have held those feelings on their own for months and months, if not years, before someone's asked them. You're right, it's really heavy. Wow. We should try and go to wards kids in a way that isn't minimizing what they're experiencing, isn't like unintentional putting guilt and shame on them, saying like, I'm so stressed about this.

This is overwhelming me. I'm, you know, I can't believe you're doing this. Look how much you've got going for you. Like the child and teen doesn't feel that. So it's an important thing to not, you know, tell them what they're feeling is wrong or show them that you don't understand through that. But really challenging stuff. Yeah, of course. So what can a parent do?

Because I assume, you know, if I personally put myself in a position like that, of course, I've not experienced that myself. But I would feel very, very helpless, especially obviously if it's either my children going through that or a child that I, you know, it's close to. So what can parents do to help their child? And help themselves. If they feel something's off, but their child's not expressing that they're upset or they're sad or they're going through something. Yeah. And it's actually a beautiful bigger question, J.B., about like, you know, what can I do? I feel like something's off.

And I think a lot of the time, a lot of parents unintentionally go to teenagers and ask them what's going on. But often these kids can't explain it. And so what we want to try and do, like what we want to try and do is think about what's going on, talk to other people that know them if it's a teacher, other family members, a sporting coach. How do you think they're going on and really stroke worried? We know that some of the signs of depression are not participating in things you used to enjoy anymore, low levels of energy, as we talked about agitation. And if you're hearing that in other environments at school or at a sporting club or something,

they're shutting down or easily getting upset, worrying about that and reaching out like, you know, everyone in the world now is trying to build the capacity of educators. Educators need a lot more support in this space, but talking to school and saying I'm really worried. Louise, you made a really good point. The last chapter of the book is about the hardest experience I have in clinic, which is convincing a parent to look after their own mental health. A lot of parents that are going through that stuff, we say, this must be devastating. This must be so hard to cope. Like, who looks after your mental health, have you ever gone and seen someone? And I swear to God, thousands of times, I've heard the answer, I'll be fine once my kid's fine,

but it doesn't work like that. We have to have the capacity to go through this huge adversity and have someone to talk to about their own feelings. So it's really important. So safety is actually the first step. And then just thinking about where are my opportunities to learn more about how this kids going and how do I bring more protective elements into their life? And the things that protect all of us, but especially teams that are struggling with adversity like that is a sense of belonging in my school, participating in community traditions, two non-parental adults take a genuine interest in me, one person in my home that helps me feel safe, one adult I can talk to about my feelings, friends that genuinely care about me. Those are the things that I look for in clinic for those

kids that are really flat and at high risk more than anything else. It's more effective than the medications we prescribe. But it's hard because often these kids are shut down. And another helpful thing for anyone that's dealing with that is we know from a mental health, first aid perspective, that kids feel more comfortable talking to us from school entry right up to teenagers in adult life if we're not directly confronting them. And that's why when, you know, going for a walk with them, going through drive with them, something like that's a lot less confrontation. We all know that from ourselves, don't we? Yeah.

But trying to stop hold opportunities saying like, yeah, rather than sitting them down opposite them and saying, tell me what's going on. Yeah. Just driving them to their mate's house, diversity and something like that and just saying how's a day going? You know, what's going to? Yeah, no. That's a brilliant.

That's a brilliant tip. And something else you say that really resonates with me and also what we actually say at NetMoms to our community, but you say parents don't need to be perfect. you just need to be willing to learn. What we say, Annette Moms, is life doesn't have to be perfect for you to feel proud of your family. Do you think that we're living a little bit in a world in this modern parenting world where we're all just trying to be perfect and do everything perfect and bring up perfect children and have a perfect family? That pressure, I mean personally, I'd say the answer to that question is yes.

But I'm keen to hear your thoughts. I agree with you and it's one thing that's really important I think we can all have what we're aiming for but you know we all have to make choices I choose to try and just have fun with my kids and show them not just I do constantly tell them I love them that I try and show them too but I'm not perfect with their diet you know they don't eat vegetables every day I try and get fruit into them like they they use an iPad like things like that I feel like there's so much pressure of like like all the things we're told not to do, like don't use screens, don't do this, don't do that. But, you know, the quality of the time that I have with them is more important than, you know,

how many serves of vegetables they have or making sure that, you know, they're only only one hour a day of a screen for the, you know, entire year. It's just crazy stuff and that pressure has, it does a lot of damage because people feel shame about how they're parenting and they also it shifts a lot of people like where the priorities are and you talked about social media like without going into that deep hole again um it's hard isn't it a lot of people are posting that like they get up in the morning they do yoga with their toddler you know they both share a smoothie and then they go for a walk in the environment and talk about how much you know they love each other and all the rest of us are like hair on fire just trying

to get through the day and i think it's you know it makes you feel like you're you're not as good as those parents and we just shouldn't be we shouldn't be doing that to each other we should be really honest about i find this really hard you know yeah so yeah screens diet all those things are you know in sleep and things like that there's there's a perfect way to do it and then there's the way that the most of us are doing it and that's actually fine yeah you talk very openly you know about how you are as a parent as well of course you're a dad um you know and that very much shapes a lot of your work. Can you just tell us a little bit about what the difference between co-regulation and self-regulation is? Just so anyone listening is clear on that. And I guess how parents can be

kinder to themselves when they're struggling, because like you say, the vast majority of us are. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I have a sensitive temperament. I was born like that, and I'll always have that. You know, I'm a fiery redhead. My daughter's a fiery redhead. My other kids look like they've got their mom set of temperament. Yeah, but, you know, their mom who's amazing, you know, she is calm in almost every situation, you know, she's just level head, doesn't really get stressed, you know, doesn't kind of start making mistakes and things like I do when I've got too much on. And so I sometimes look at her and I go, I wish I was like that, but I actually can't

be like that. I have to express how I'm feeling. I get frustrated and agitated. And it's actually really important my three kids see that, but especially, especially my fiery red-headed daughter, because if she never sees me struggle emotionally, then she'll worry how do I deal with this? Something's wrong with me when she's older. And there's three ways that kids learn emotional development in general.

One is what you talked about, co-regulation, how we support them. The other is role-modeling our emotional difficulties. And the third is just talking about emotions when everyone's calm. Think about we just don't do that. It's one of the most important, richest, most challenging parts of our life is emotions. but do we talk to our kids about it? You know, we don't. It's a really funny thing that we need to do more.

You know, we spend more time teaching them, you know, maths than we do about, you know, anger and joy and jealousy and shame and gratitude in a really meaningful way. So it's something that's really important. But within that of my daughter and all my family, seeing me struggle emotionally, they also have to see my effort and my success in trying to deal with it. and that's self-regulation.

That's, you know, what I try and role model to them as well is that I work on it and I try and get better at it. Yeah, I think that's really, really important. Yeah, and I think your question J.B., about like, what's the difference between co-regulation and self-regulation? Self-regulation is our capacity to be aware of our emotions. And interestingly, a lot of mindfulness gets misinterpreted as like, you know, and deal with it.

or, you know, solve it or get rid of it. But actually truly mindfulness and self-regulation is just being aware of I'm agitated at the moment and it's tension in my body and I feel red and hot. And it's because I'm stressed. You know, if I'm not saying, and this is what I'm going to do and this is why it's happened and I'll make sure it doesn't happen again, it's just that awareness. And when you start learning that, like, which I was in my 30s, you know, when you start learning how to handle that, it just makes it so much easier to go through your day.

And it's not that I still don't have those emotions, but I have a process instead of just shutting down, getting agitated, all that stuff. And it just, you know, accelerating, I now have a way that I can actually process it that's healthy. And you actually, most of this hopefully will be teaching our kids how to self-regulated a much younger age through co-regulation. And co-regulation is essentially this beautiful neuroscientific approach that shows us in studies where we put probes on people's brains through functional MRI that if I come into you, J.B, and you're stressed, but I'm calm, and I sit with you and I talk to you and I try and calm you, you'll actually have calm come through your brain as well. The beautiful thing about it is, the more I know you, J.B, the better we would get it doing that to each other. So it was this thing where like therapists and parents and all the kids that I get to meet in clinic.

I can do it when I meet them. But because I understand it and I've had a lot of practice where if I know the kid really well and I have a lot of dysregulated teenagers that because they know me, they can come in really stressed and really aggravated and really high intensely upset. And because they know me, I can come down on a kid recently who, you know, he was so stressed and so upset and his mom kept trying to calm him down and she actually, he kicked her out of the room. He was like, you need to get out.

You just make it worse. And she was just trying to hug him. Yeah. It was so upset and sobbing. And, you know, and I just, you know, she just wasn't sure what to do. And I said, do you want me to leave? And he said, no, but I just can't look at you. And he just sat there and sobbed, you know.

No. That's actually just privileged. So I'm trying to help him learn co-regulation. I'm trying to help him learn self-regulation. Okay. So with that in mind, I know you list 10 things in your book to help parents and guide parents with children with anxiety. But I'm going to ask you, because I like threes. I find threes much more useful and easy to do. If you were to say these are the three things that I really want parents to take away from this conversation today that can help them guide their child and support their child. What would they be? be. Yeah, I think the unconditional love one, if I've only had one, that's always going to be it. Thinking about, you know, are there little things that I do every day that show this kid how much I unconditionally love them? And do I have a sense of whether they feel that or not? And can I

push back against the idea of, of course, because I do this? I think that's a really important one. I meet, you know, every single parent in the world is working really hard, unconditionally love kids. Like some of them have a lot of burden and trauma and mental illness. And we might look at them and say, actually, they're a bad parent, but they're just holding more weight than us. But I think that unconditional love pieces were really, really important. Okay. I think the other thing for the second one is probably just celebrating kids for who they are. And it goes back to that piece of like just praising kids and like trying to make them always be better.

but just actually celebrating the kid, watching what matters to the kid, where does the kid go? I think that's a really important one about, like, does this kid feel good about themselves? And that's actually how we build secure self-esteem for kids. Watch the things that they put effort into, really support them in feeling good about that intrinsically. And then I think the third one is like, you know,

just trying to be kind to be kind to, ourselves in this whole process because I think as he said it's getting harder and harder. We're getting so much pressure to be better and better parents. We're learning that if we stuff it up, it's going to increase risk of mental illness and all these like worries on top of everything else that's going on in the world. And I think I would wish that I could ask everyone and make them feel like they could just be kind of themselves. And that's why I try and share those bits about like, you know, screens and vegetables and

Yeah, it's normalising. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's one really important piece of just there's too much pressure on all of us at the moment. And I think, I hope some of the stuff that I'm doing takes that off a couple of people out there and feel like, you know, well, if this so-called expert is using screens and not always giving vegetables and gets upset sometimes. Then I'm fine. Then other people will say, yeah, well, actually, maybe, maybe I'm. I'm not so flawed as well.

Yeah. So yeah. That's super important. There is so, so much to go into here. There is. Everyone can just read your book. I was going to say, Louise, we could, we're just scratching the surface. We can literally do this for an hour or longer.

I know. Because when you were saying about like, let them have important roles as well, because I read that last night and I sort of really hooked on to that as well. And I was thinking, oh, that's so true. like giving them each kid little roles in the family so they feel valued and that they have a need within the family. I thought that was a really interesting point. But guys, yeah, read the book. It's all in that. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And just to finish off with, we've got a very important parenting question of the week from our roving junior reporter,

Lake, who six. Why did parents? shout out of all the time, and then they say to us, stop shouting! Over to you, Billy. Yeah, it's a big question. And I get that from my four-year-old all the time. She will kind of, you know, this is the problem with my approach, is that sometimes she'll see me distressed, and she'll say, just go and take a couple of deep breaths.

And it kind of agitates me at first. I'm like, why is this little four-year-old telling me what to do? So, you know, it gives me hope in the world that you've got someone saying, like, why do parents, you know, tell us to stop shouting and then they shout all the time? And I hope and I sense from that kid's, you know, confidence that they are saying that to their parents because that's actually a really healthy sign of a household where a kid can challenge what the parents are saying. And it's actually what the evidence shows us is that an authoritative parent is one that. is in control, but the kid has a voice. And I think it's showing a sign of a kid that is, you know, coming up with great emotional maturity to be able to say,

why am I not allowed to shaft, but, you know, my mom and dad's out all the time. And that's the idea of like the difference from what we're aiming for in the real world, I guess. So, yeah, but yeah, that's, that's a highlight of the, you know, day for me hearing a kid that's falling a parent out because that happens to me. So I'm glad I'm not the only one who's got a kid. who's all in you now. Some of those old-fashioned phrases, like, don't do as I, what is it, don't do as I do as I say,

not as I do. Yeah, and it's like, oh my God, like, I just, I don't say any of those to my kids now because they're just so out of date. You know, the hardest thing about it always is the opposite is true. Like, kids watch what we do more than what we listen to what we say. And so true, you know, the role modeling phase is a really important one. Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with having big emotions.

and in a house as long as we repair, as long as kids know that, you know, we unconditionally support them and we're trying to get better at it. And if you've got a kid who's saying that back to you, it's kind of evidence that as collectively as a family, you are all working on it. So it's really beautiful to hear. Oh, Billy, honestly, it's been fantastic hearing from you. Like I said, we could have been here for hours. But, yeah, it's been very insightful. Well, thank you both. It's been wonderful to talk to you. I wish I was with you both person but hopefully I'll get to come and have a visit because I'd love to do that too.

Yeah, that would be brilliant. Then we could do a part two. I'd love to do that. Because there's still a lot more to talk about and discuss. Yeah, that was super helpful. Thank you. And I think a really good sort of translation of the science and the textbook talk into real, real lived experience. So thanks. That's great. Thanks, Billy. Yeah, no, thank you both. I really appreciate it. And thanks for all your helping, you know, others finding the book, especially your community over there. And genuinely, I'd really love to come into a trip because I, yeah, a lot of my families

in the UK and stuff. So it'd be wonderful. Yeah. Brilliant. Absolutely. Brilliant. We'll see you soon then. Thank you.

So what a brilliant chat. So insightful. I think this week my takeaway, I don't know about you, J.B., but I know it straight away. Go on. Mine is sanctuaries. Of course. I think that is such a brilliant reminder because actually talking to my husband about

this, we had sanctuaries maybe in the early days, in the early years with the kids, like some rituals and routines. But as they've got older and life's got busier and everyone's got different activities, we lose them. And we were saying that probably our only sanctuary is like maybe movie night when everyone's all together, chilled, relaxed and enjoying each other's coming. company. But I think I'm going to try and find a new ritual. I mean, it'll be hard to do them one to one with each kid. I'll take a lot of time in the week. But I will, yeah, I'm going to

try and incorporate that. I just need to put my thinking gap on. How to incorporate it. I mean, that's the biggest challenge. And I think for me, you know, as my children are getting older as well, you know, I think finding that time. One of the things that really stood out to me was what was talking about co-regulation and self-regulation. And sort of the, the, role modeling as well. You know, he was saying that, you know, that your children, which we know, we know that children see a lot of, you know, how we behave, how we react. And often you just want them to get the good behaviours and to take up the good things that you do or the good things you try and instill in them. But actually, life isn't like that. Life is about everything, you know,

and there are good things, there are bad things. You are angry sometimes. You are upset sometimes. You are happy sometimes. You know, you go through all those different range of emotions. And actually, it's much more important to demonstrate how to be angry but then not lash out or whatever or how to be upset but then be able to pull yourself out of it or you know or work with people to come out of it and I think you know as much as we can talk about it and we can say oh you shouldn't have done this or whatever actually being alongside them and working with them you know and demonstrating it personally I think is really really important so the book 10 things to know about your child's mental health by Dr. Billy Garvey is out now. And I think everyone

should have a dip into it or a full read. It is so helpful. It really is. And if this conversation has brought up worries for you, please know that support is available and you're doing much better than you think. And you can read more expert help at netmums.com and on the netmum's socials. And if you're finding the netmonds podcast useful, then please do hit follow. Leave a review. come join the Netmoms community. We'd love to have you because this is where the real parenting conversations are happening. Yes, send us in your stories, your dynamics, your questions at the Netmums podcast at netmums.com. We want to hear them and we want to voice them as well and get those answers for you. Brilliant. Another great episode. All done and dusted. Cheers, J.B. All good.

And thanks for listening, people. Thank you. See you next week. Bye. I'm going to be.