The Netmums Podcast - S18 Ep9: ROSIE KELLY-SMITH: Postpartum anxiety and navigating motherhood through the generations

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

This week on The Netmums Podcast, Louise and JB are joined by Rosie Kelly Smith, for an insightful and heartfelt conversation about the realities of new motherhood.Rosie shares her experiences navigating the early days with her 18-month-old daughter, Billie, and reflects on the overwhelming pressure new parents face from societal expectations and the deluge of advice. Rosie discusses the generational shifts in parenting, sharing how her grandmother and mother approached motherhood and the wisdom that has been passed down through the family.In this episode, Rosie opens up about her struggles with postpartum anxiety and the often-unspoken challenges that come with being a new mum. She discusses the impact of social media on parenting and the need for kindness towards ourselves.In this episode:- The overwhelming pressure of parenting advice and societal expectations- Rosie’s journey through postpartum anxiety - Reflections on motherhood across generations- The impact of social media on new parents- Trusting your instincts and embracing imperfection in parenting- The joy and challenges of navigating life with a toddlerThis episode of The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mamia.Read more expert advice at Netmums.com and join the conversation on social @Netmums.JB and Louise also want to hear your parenting stories, questions and dilemmas! So please share them with us at [e-mail] and we can bring you into the conversations that matter on The Netmums Podcast.This podcast is brought to you by Netmums: backed by experts, trusted by parents. Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

This episode of The Net Mums podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mammaia. If you're a first time or a new parent, there's a lot you don't realize you'll suddenly have very strong opinions on. Car parking bays, the price of fresh fruit, screen time and also nappies. Because no one wants a nappy nightmare in the middle of the night or during a busy playgroup session. And let's not talk about the potential disasters that can happen on a long car journey. Oh no. In those early weeks through to the toddler phase, you need all the support you can get and

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dermatologically tested and suitable from newborn, which is reassuring when everything touching your baby's new delicate skin suddenly feels important. Thoughtfully designed, parent approved and made for real life. You can find Aldimamia Nappi's in store now. Hello and welcome to the NetMoms podcast where real parenting conversations happen. I am your host, J.B. Gill. And I'm Louise Burke, the editorial director at NetMums. Every week we talk all things parenting, bringing you expert advice, real life stories and honest conversations about family life as it really is.

And today's episode, I think, is special because so many parents, I think especially new mums, are going to absolutely be 100% on board with it. Yeah. Because we're talking about those early days of motherhood, the pressure, the noise, the advice, and what actually helps when you're in it. Yeah. Do you know, Louise, can you remember that moment when suddenly everyone seemed to have an opinion on how you should parent? Oh, yeah. Well, even before that, I think when I was like growing a belly, I had, I used to freak me out so much that people always wanted to touch my belly. And not just touch my belly. This is, I'm talking about strangers in the street,

but would always want to tell me the gender of the baby I was having as they were touching my belly, which used to wade me out so much. So yeah, there's a lot going on in those days. And it's going to be quite overwhelming because you're trying to work it all out. And then you've got Google, social media, family advice. Yeah. And often they're all saying completely different things, aren't they? My God, exactly.

And I think that's why today's guest is so refreshing. because she cuts through all of that and says what actually matters. Yes, absolutely. Now, we are joined by someone whose mum, I've met many times and she's absolutely lovely. But she's also lovely in her own right. It's Rosie Kelly Smith. She's a journalist, podcast host and mum to 18-month-old Billy. She's also the daughter of Lorraine Kelly and together they have the podcast, What If?

But today we're talking about her brand new book, Mother to Mother. Yes, which looks at motherhood through the generations, from her granny to her mum and then obviously her own experience as well. And the advice that's been passed down through those generations too. Now, I just want to point out there, four female generations of the Kellys in this world is absolutely unbelievable. So impressive. But not only that, Rosie has been incredibly open about her experience of postpartum anxiety as well, which is something we're going to talk about because it doesn't get talked about enough.

No, not at all. Rosie, welcome. Hello, thank you so much for having me. That was a big intro, Rosie, wasn't it? It was a huge intro. I loved it. Thank you so much. How are you?

I'm good, I'm good, yeah. We've been sleeping and she's, you know, she's having a bit of a weird weekend. She wasn't eating anything and she's a big eater. So I thought, okay, something's up. And, you know, we've been doing this for like a year and a half now, kind of should know things. And I still don't know anything. She's, I saw a tooth that popped.

So I'm like, maybe it's that. Ah, maybe it's not. Who knows? So Rosie, I've been consuming your book, which is super, super useful. I kind of want to say it's almost like a guide book as well for those of you that aren't just pregnant, but maybe thinking about getting pregnant. And I think a really powerful place to start with our conversation today is this idea about information about parenting. Because there's a lot of it out there. We worked for a parenting platform as well, so we're serving up information too.

But sometimes it can feel harder than ever. And I know in the intro to your book, you use the word pressure. And as soon as I heard you say that, I was totally with you. It just feel like there's quite a lot of pressure that mounts over us when we become a parent. Do you think, did you find in your research with your book, because obviously you look at the advice about parenting over the generation, before us, did you feel that when you were talking to your mum, your grandmother, and hearing stories about their mothers and their fathers,

that it's a very different world now and actually it's almost harder. Did you find that or not? Totally, yeah, I definitely found that. I think with my granny, who's now Billy's great-grandy, because my mum, well, my granny had my mum when she was 18, So that's why we had the four generations. It must have been very, very difficult. Because it was very young.

It's paid off. It's paid off. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I always say to my granny, my granny always says, oh, you've got it so much easier now because of all your gadgets and, you know, you've got things like that moms. And then I always say to her, well, you had it easier because you didn't have everything and everyone having an opinion. And having that opinion said either to you or, you know, seen through. It's the comparison, I think. She always said to me, oh, you just got on with it.

I remember talking to her about, you know, did you schedule mum's naps? And, you know, did you, what did you do with weaning and all of, like, teething stuff? So you just, you just got on? Like, what do you mean? Like, what you're on about? I was like, okay, so it has changed a lot. Yeah, yeah. It's changed so much.

I think the biggest, the biggest change, I think that I, and we both could sort of agree on, was the village aspect and how when my granny had my mum, it was big. built in, everyone was in the sort of block tenement that she was in, was in the same boat and she had family living in the same street. Now you do have to sort of build that village and you can do it with antenatal classes and we're very lucky that my parents live six minutes down the road. I never thought I would ever do that. But as soon as we had some Philly, I was like, we have to move.

It's so, oh my God, it makes so much sense. And yeah, the only reason I can do this just now is because my dad's got her for an hour on higher lab, I'm sure everything will be fine. Yeah. Having that help and support around is hugely important. It's huge, yeah. Yeah, well, that's what really stood out to me, you know, sort of that term saying that, you know, your granny's saying it was easier back then.

Do you think, or when you've spoken to her, has she voiced the fact that she felt that she was, you know, quite comfortable with that transition? Because it's a big change. No matter who you are or what your experience is, becoming a new, or a parent for a first time, a new parent, especially a new mom. you know, and I spoke back in those days as well, you know, that that expectation to breastfeed and things like that. We didn't have, you know, all the access to all the different options,

I think, that we have today. Does she think that it was easier? Or is she just saying, you know, from her experience, whatever it was, she just got on with it and it was, you know, probably similar to today? I think it's the whole just getting on with it thing. But I think it's also so different to what we have now. She was in hospital for a week. after having my mum and that was normal. She didn't have, you know, a tragic birth or anything. That was a very normal birth. And you were in hospital for a week.

That's just what happened. That's where you learned how to breastfeed. You had, you know, the midwife's telling you how to change nappies and what to do. And I remember I had a plan section. And after the, because it was quite late at night, kept getting pushed back and back and back. The second day a doctor came in and said, why are you still here? Yeah.

Why have you not gone home yet? And I'm like, no. And it was, you know, constant advice from different midwives who were amazing and I loved them. But it was like, oh, did you not bring a bid? But I'm like, no, because the other midwife told me I didn't need to when I was packing my hospital. It's just so much. I'm telling my granny, I was like, what did you put in your hospital bag? And he's like, oh, well, I didn't even know I was going into labour.

I just didn't feel right. So I went to the hospital. And then that was that. You just, it's this thing of the adapting. The adapting, which I think all moms and parents do. But it's not having that confidence, I think, is a lot. And I think my granny, I mean, she was so young as well, which doesn't, maybe when you're so young, you don't think about stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. You don't have the time to. You just get on with it. It's interesting because I've actually heard that said before, you know, and obviously I'm no authority on it. But, you know, I've definitely heard from weird wives before they said that, you know, younger moms tend to, like you say, just get on with it because they don't really know much different. And it is what is.

I think as, you know, obviously, moms are older and certainly in this day and age, you know, women are having babies, you know, older. And I think perhaps because of, you know, your experiences around you, maybe other friends who've gone through it, perhaps had a bad birth, you know, whatever, I think it perhaps has a bit more of a sway then on how your personal experience unfolds. Yeah. I was going to ask you about following on from what J.B. was just saying there and following on from that theme of pressure, because it's not just about information that's out there now. But because that information is out there, there's this sort of pressure to make sure you're doing it right. Because it's like, well, I've got the information. And that's what it's telling me. So therefore, I need to do this at this time or I need to do this this way or by three months, I should be doing this and so on. And so. And so I think a lot of us now always put pressure as well on this idea of perfection

and making sure that we're getting everything absolutely right. Did you find that when you were a new mum? Yes. Oh my gosh. And I still do. Totally still do. I think it starts from the minute that you sort of see the pregnancy positive test, the amount of information and the amount of, oh, have you done this and have you done that? And I remember when I found out I was pregnant, I went to see the GP and I thought it would be more of an announcement and there'd be another test because it was just nothing. It was like, here's a leaflet and are you taking your vitamins yet and all this? And I'm like, no.

Like, I've never done this before. I don't know what to do. And it was that thing of, oh, you just need to trust your gut. I got a lot of that. But you don't have a gut to trust because you've never done it before. It's all about learning on the go. So I had that totally when I was when I was pregnant. it was very much like, oh, are you doing all of these, you know, breath work preparing for the birth.

And I had placentipravia, so they said you'd probably have to have a section. So I thought, okay, well, I don't need to do any of that. And then I remember, because you get sort of, you don't even get wheeled into theatre. You walk in and then you sit on the bed. It's very, very weird. And I kind of wish I did a little bit of breath work for that just to calm down. But I just thought, I don't need to do any of that. And I remember even like reading books.

I had, you know, what to expect. had all these textbooks. And then at the end of every single textbook, it always says, oh, but there's no textbook baby. So it's like, well, why are we putting all of this pressure on ourselves to follow these strict rules when every baby is different. And they really are. They are. They really are.

And you gave birth to Billy Baby Baby Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby. Baby, baby, baby. Baby, baby. Baby, 80 months ago. Yeah, so she's a lovely little toddler now. And on a sort of more serious note, you do explore in your book a lot around postpartum anxiety, don't you?

Which I think is a really important conversation because we hear about postnatal depression but not so much about postnatal anxiety. Are you open to sharing more about that for the listeners? About your experience. Yeah, of course. So I obviously knew about postpartum depression. I'd heard a lot.

about that and I sort of thought because of I had lots of anxiety and I was put on antidepressants before I found out I was pregnant and then just came off them because I didn't know they didn't they didn't they didn't give me enough sort of evidence to say that you know it would be okay to take drugs while you're pregnant and I just didn't really like the idea of doing that so I just didn't um so I feel like the pregnancy the biggest anxiety I had when I was pregnant was about the birth because I couldn't control it yeah and I had this thing of I need to know who's doing it and I need to know what's going to happen. And you don't, you can't do that. So I very sort of, I had placenta Pravia, like I said, and it was quite like, it was, it was quite good. I had that because I could be like,

oh, it's a planned section. I know what I'm going to do. So by the time that the placenta did move, I'd already had it in my head that this is what was going to happen. And there was just, I couldn't really fathom it. And I remember I used to read like the what to expect and all these birth, scary books before bed. And then I would be able to sleep. And I thought, well, obviously, like silly so I remember getting in a lot of a tiz about that and thinking oh god but it only really kicked off I think for me the sort of the night that we came home with Billy because we were in you obviously as soon as you give birth that hormone crash is just insane yeah yeah and I just wow we do not talk about that enough and everyone does say and I had it to me you know

the baby blues thing it's like oh it's just baby blues and oh, it's just all this stuff. But I think I was sobbing for about three or four weeks. And, you know, that uncontrollable, like, can't breathe sobbing. Where's it coming from? Yeah. Yeah, like, this isn't just the baby blues. And luckily, I had the most amazing midwife.

From the very beginning, she was a community midwife. So I had her for all my appointments. And luckily, she was on shift the day that I was having my section. And she popped in, popped a little head over, which was. very, very sweet. And she's just, oh, I talk about her a lot in the book because I'm so lucky that I had her. And she prolonged my care.

So then I had phone calls with her, basically. And she's the one that came to the house and did like the hill prick test. It was, she was the one on duty, which again is just total, total luck. So she knew me and I think she knew that something was up. And I don't, I get, again, I don't know why, but I'm getting anxious for other women who don't have that.

Yeah, yeah. If you didn't have that level of care that I did. And yeah, she was amazing. So she said, I'm going to speak to a nurse and get you back on the medication. So I'm back on the anxiety medication. I think it was certuline. I never know how to say it properly. I think it is that.

Yeah. So I went back on that and there was on that for about, I want to say about four or five months until things could get better. And I was referred to a perinatal nurse. who I went to see, who was lovely. But for me, it was just, I just, everything made me just, oh, like the whole breastfeeding thing. I thought that that would be, yeah, sorry, you go. No, no, no, I was going to say, how did it feel for you?

Because in your book, of course, you said at times, many times, you didn't feel safe. Yeah, I didn't feel safe at all. I had this, I had this thing about Steve, my partner. I thought he was going to be harmed in some way. So he, the first week, he was like, I need to go for a walk. I need to leave the house. I was like, okay, that's fine. But you're not allowed to.

So I had his like location on all the time. So whenever he would leave the house, I could just see where he was. I was just convinced that something was going to happen to him. I didn't think he was going to die. I just thought someone's going to harm him. And I had the same with Billy. I didn't have it with me at all. I just had this thing of someone's going to come in our house and someone's going to attack us.

But then they're going to leave. Oh, gosh, that's quite severe. It's severe, but it's also, I couldn't, even now, I couldn't reason with it. It wasn't rational. No, but anxiety and fear isn't rational, is it? It's not. And I had this thing, I remember in the middle of the night, it was a storm, and you're obviously up every single hour with this tiny little person who will not sleep.

And it was lightning. And I remember thinking someone's coming in with a flashlight, that's what's happening. and this is all the things I need to do in my head to stop. Like this is what's going to happen. And you couldn't reason with me. You just couldn't. So that was quite, it was quite scary. And I remember thinking, oh, I remember saying to my mum, actually,

we need to get a bat, a cricket bat, because that's legal-ish as a weapon. You know, I can't get a real weapon because obviously we'll be in trouble then. But I could, and I could do that. And now I'm like, wow. Wow. That was a low time. And what was it like for Steve, your partner and your mom as well, your dad? Were they clearly your mum, you mentioned then, talking about getting a cricket back.

She was worried about you, worried about how you felt and how this was playing out. Yeah. How could they support you? They were super keen to get me back home for a little bit and away from where we were in London. I think being in the city sort of amplifies all the senses. So I remember going home for like a week Because I was so my section The way, I don't know if it was because of

Breastfeeding, I was in so much pain My back was ruined I couldn't, we waited until six weeks To sort of travel and go back And see mum and dad Because I was just so, in so much pain I think it's because I wasn't being mobile Like everyone says you have to be

Like you need to get up on your feet Don't they? They're straight away Oh, I don't want to which I did do in the hospital. I actually felt more mobile on that maybe it's all the drugs because you get sent home with paracetamol.

Yeah, which is outrageous. I had the same with Chloe and I was literally freaking out because my mum comes from a medical profession so I had a little bit of help in that respect and so even over the counts, of course, you can get stronger drugs than just paracetamol. But I was outraged.

I was like, how does someone go through abdominal surgery pretty much and get sent home with paracetamol? It's ridiculous. It's crazy. I always refer to it. Burrett. My dad had a surgery on his big toe. It was like a sort of some weird buildup in his bone of his big toe. And he got sent away with like a packet of drugs, two physio appointments. And I was like, that's your big toe and I was cut in half. Like this doesn't make any sense.

Yeah. Well, Cesarian is traumatic surgery. You know, it's really serious surgery. People see it's the easy way out and it's so not. No, not at all, not at all. I had it with my, I had twins for my second birth, and I had an early birth to a cesarean. But when they say to you, like the midwives and professionals are saying, get on your feet straight after, you sort of look at them and say, what the hell?

You're mad. I don't want to do this. Oh, you're mad. Yeah. It's really hard. It's really hard. But obviously you've had this beautiful little bundle in your arms that was Billy. Could you feel that amongst all that anxiety and fear, could you still experience joy or were you consumed by the anxiety?

I think it was, yeah, I feel like that time was robbed a little bit by it. I look at a lot of pictures now and I'm so grateful that we took lots of pictures and we had like a newborn shoot which was really lovely. But I remember looking at them and going, oh God, the week after that I was, you know, had my stitis and it was a whole other thing of. You know, your body is not yours and what that brings and you're not doing it well. That's why this has happened. And that's so not the case. But in that time, that's what your mind thinks. In that head space.

Yeah, there was some really. Yeah. And I remember Steve, he was amazing. He, whenever I did sleep, she would only sleep on someone for a long time. So he would always have her in his arms and he would always send pictures. So then when I woke up and it was my time, I could see that she was fine and she was okay, which she was such a good baby. She just didn't sleep. And she loved her milk though, like obsessed with milk. The thing I say though, like even then when you feel like you're almost explaining yourself for that your baby slept on you, you know, that baby was in you for nine months in your tummy. They were so close to you. it's not, you know, strange that, or odd that they still want to be with you afterwards.

I think, again, sometimes. But even like when my granny had my mum, I was talking to her about the fact that Billy, and I did it as well. My mum, I only slept on her for the first few weeks, or my dad, but only my mum. My granny said, well, we just put you in a cot in your own room and that's what people did. There wasn't any of this, you know, tending to your baby because that's not what people did. So it's very bizarre how that sort of, it's that advice thing of, oh, you'll make a rod for your own back if you sort of tend your baby's needs. And I hate that. And I think that just adds to the anxiety as well.

Yeah. Totally. Like you touched on it already. You know, it's that comparison, isn't it? That everybody struggles with, you know, and I certainly did it as a father, let alone as a mother where you're physically going through it as well. Yeah, you're comparing yourself around feeding, sleep routine. who's going back to work, who's being a stay-at-home mum. It's like, I mean, it goes on and on and on.

And they say, don't they, that comparison is the thief of joy. And like you said, those early days when you really would just want to be an absolute, like a blissful state, you're there, sending yourself in knots. You mentioned in your book about milk supply and you just said then that Billy loved her milk so much and you were breastfeeding. you had your sore back. But again, you get that comparison even with, even with your sisters, as in like other moms out there, because you sometimes find yourself thinking, oh, I'll go for that coffee morning for that comforting sort of, you know, peer group support. And then it only takes one mum to go, oh, God, I pumped so much milk less than, you know, it's so easy to you just, and then you sort of record, you know, you sort of like shrink and just, and, just in that.

absolute sort of guilt and fear. Did you find that about mixing with other moms, the comparison that even came from other mums and like making you feel like you won't do enough? Not to talk down other mums because obviously that support as well is great. Oh, it's key and I had, I've met two very good friends in my antenatal class group and it's there, you know, we've had all. the chats and I think the comparison for me has been social media especially with milk supply.

I would, you know, you're up in the middle of the night scrolling because you have one hand and you're, you know, doing lots of things. And it's the whole thing of, oh, this is how much I pumped and it's showing it. And I just, I couldn't deal with that. I hate, I just, and this is what you can do. You have to like and like and subscribe and, you know, follow me. And I'm like, that's just unacceptable. Like any woman who is struggling, or sorry, if any woman who is doing really well, you should share it. You shouldn't be gatekeeping stuff like that, especially something like milk supply that is so, oh, you know, like that's my noise for it.

But yeah, and I had that, I think because Billy just, she loved her milk so much that I couldn't really store any. I had this cup that I put on the other boob that would store milk so that when she was on the other one, it kind of worked out. and I could store a little bit. But I couldn't understand this whole thing of, oh, pump when, you know, she's due a feed. I'm like, well, she's obviously sure feed then. So how do I pump if she needs? It doesn't make any. I just can't work it out.

When does she eat? Like, it just, no. And we did feed on demand as well, which I didn't know was a thing. I just fed her when she was crying. I did that with my first baby. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, those are all things that are, there's nothing wrong with.

any of those things at all. But I think, like you say, the fact that you have social media almost amplifies all of that, you know, which is, you know, going back to mom and granny as well when they were going through it, they wouldn't have had that, would they? No. So then, by default, it's all, yeah, by default, it's almost easier to, yeah, obviously it's not easy, but do you know what I mean? Actually, not having to have that pressure as well would have made things much easier.

Totally. Yeah, I think the whole essence of the book is just everything is going to be okay because you know people that have done this before. Your mum's done it. Your great-grandnie's done it. And yes, it's a new time, but there's still some very universal truths. And even like I know with my granny, with the whole like putting my mum down and just sort of letting her cry thing, I physically could not do that. I feel like my entire body was on fire whenever Billy cries, even now if I hear crying. I hear you. Yeah. I just can't do it.

So it's about finding what you want to do and trusting your gut, learning to trust your gut. Because you don't know it immediately. And I think that's what people kind of expect from mothers and dads that you should just know what you're doing. Because you're the mother, you're the father, you're the parent. And that's not the case. It takes a minute. Just a reminder, this episode of the Nets Mums podcast is brought to you by Aldi Mammaia. As well as their award-winning nappies, we give their Mamiya wipes hard recommended netmums.

They are a parenting essential. They're plastic-free, gentle enough to use from birth and kind on sensitive newborn skin. Perfect for nappie changers and all the other unexpected messes no one warns you about. Head to your nearest Aldi Store to explore the full Mammaia range. How instrumental is Steve in, or how instrumental was he in the early days, just helping you sort of figure that out? He was great. He was, I mean, I've got the funniest picture of him in the hospital with my sleeping mask on.

He doesn't actually know about this. It's lying in bed. I was like, I have to document all of this. But yeah, he changed her first nappy. He was the one that did like the first pram walk because I couldn't, you know, do anything really. I think three weeks was my turning point when I was actually okay to start doing more things. But yeah, his company are amazing as well. He got six weeks paternity leave.

I was going to ask that. Yeah, that's brilliant. Which isn't common enough, is it? No, it's not. I've got friends that had, you know, two days because they're self-employed. He had two days off. It's just crazy. It's crazy.

It just, yeah, does make you think a lot. But, no, he's, I call him Dobby the elf because he doesn't. to do everything. Yeah. He does washing. He does cooking. Good man. That's what we like to hear.

Yeah. But it's that thing of like, oh, isn't that, you know, it's kind of, as good as it is, and I know it's good, it is the bare minimum. Do you know what I mean? Just helping. And we shouldn't be saying, you know, that's, you know, oh my God, you've got the most amazing partner. I'm like, yeah, I do have the most amazing partner, but we're partners in this.

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's kind of what it should be. There's a hell of a lot to do. There's so much to do. There is so much to do. And it shouldn't be down to one person.

It's a lot. No. What did Jessie Buckley say in her Oscar speech? She said, the chaos of a mother's heart or something. Chaos of motherhood, yeah. Motherhood, yeah. I love that. And I think I read at the weekend as well, Tom Hardy's wife did an interview in one of the papers.

And she was saying, I think motherhood should be taught in schools. because we just sort of expected to know how to mother and how to do all of this. Yeah. And then you feel like you're failing from the get-go. Yeah. Do you think maybe in the generations before you, did you come across this with like your grand that there was a bit more teaching through the generations of motherhood? Because they're, you know, you're living in closer proximity.

And maybe you're looking after little siblings as well because I think did your grand. have eight kids, was that right? Or your great-grand have eight kids? Yeah, my great-granny. Yeah, my great-granny. Yeah, I never got to meet her, but she was quite a woman. I hear from my, from my mum. She sounded it. Not the nicest of women. But yeah, she's a lot. But quite stoic, yeah, and quite robust. I guess when you're having, if you're growing up in a family of eight siblings, you might be looking after, if you're the oldest, you might be looking after your younger sibling. We heard this when we spoke to Paris Fury the other day for the podcast as well. And so you're almost getting taught about motherhood within your own family in that sort of

generation. But obviously those families of eight siblings don't necessarily occur so commonly nowadays. No. My God, that must have been completely mad. Was there anything that you found talking to them that like a universal truth that stood the test of time now? when it comes to parenting. Yeah, I think my, I think when I became a mum, it was this sort of immediate understanding with my mum a little bit of being like, oh, okay, this is, I get, I kind of get it now.

And I remember speaking to my granny about, like, what she's learnt. And her thing was patience. You just have to be patient. They're not going to learn how to, you know, potty train in a day. They're not going to learn how to eat. They're not going to, you have to really help them. And I think for her with with with granny, it's that universal truth of you're not supposed to do this on your own.

She had family all around her. But she told me that she used to put my mum out in the pram to sleep. She'd go up to the flat and do housework and just leave her on the street because everyone else was doing the exact same thing. And I just find that really lovely and a little bit sad that you can't do that now and not that I would want to do that because I would not be able to do that. But, yeah, it's just that thing of, yes, it's raising the baby, but it's also raising the mother. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you're not supposed to do it on your own, but you're not supposed to be perfect.

Yeah. No. So true. You know what? Growing up, I had quite a large family. I've got loads of cousins and so on. And, you know, I remember any sort of event that we had, any family event, everybody was always chipping in. If it was the aunt or your uncle or, you know, you're traveling or whatever.

like, you know, it was very much a collaborative thing. And, you know, you of course talk about the village in the book. And, you know, that definitely resonates with your audience and of course resonates with me as well. But you touched on it at the start of today. That village doesn't exist in the same way anymore, you know. So how have you been able to build your own little village? I think for me, the antinatal class, the women in that group, because you're all in the exact same. stage. I always found it so silly when women be like, oh, yes, my baby is, you know, 18 weeks or like

19 months. I'm like, your baby's nearly two. Like, just shut up. But now I get it. I really get it. Because we have, in my little group of three that have sort of bonded the most, we're about five weeks between us. And she's like, oh, I think he's doing this. And I'm like, oh, that's that. Because I know, because I'm five weeks ahead of you. So it's really weird. And it's so you need the people in the same stuff as you. I've so lucky I've got two friends who are again part of Village. They are a bit older than me. They've got babies and we're all two years apart with our kids.

And they were like my Google because I didn't want to go on Google with Billy and the newborn because it was just too much information and too not good. So I would speak to the mums in my life, which you need. And my mum just didn't remember anything. and they're kind of in it a little bit of course I was able to talk to them. How do they do this? Honestly.

They're all the same. How did you do this? Yeah. I didn't. My mum was the same. I'd be like, Mum, when she used to hear me and my husband talk about like feeding plan for our first,

like what we were, you know, you sort of do this. I mean, I look back now and it was just bonkers the sort of like military level scale that we used to plan all the wheeling meals. And she'd just be giggling in like in the corner of the room at arts. And I'd be like, what are you laughing at? And she'd be like, oh, the effort that you go into with like just pure rate. And I was like, you know, you've got to give this and you've got to give that. Because I was like reading, you know, all the guidelines.

I said, well, what, you know, what did you feed us? Or what were you brought up on? And she'd say turnip and potato. Like, turnip and potato from the garden. That's what she was fed probably, I think, for the first year of her life. Yeah. And we're there with baby pasta shapes and, you know, all these different little things. things that we get from.

So many things because the options are there. But yeah, it can get confusing as well. They are. I remember with weaning. My mum wrote a book about weaning. Amazing. How to wean your baby, like how to do it. And she did it with a doctor. I can't remember her name.

But I remember like Weaning Billy. I was like, oh, did you? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Doesn't remember a thing. We mustn't laugh because we'll probably not remember it when we get around to it. I know. Exactly.

Exactly. We're going back to your village again, because you're just talking about the NCT group and those people that are going through it. But in the book, you do mention as well about friendships and how your existing friendships can change when you fall pregnant, whether it be some difficulties in friendship because other friends are trying to conceive

and not getting very far, and that can sometimes be a bit tricky and alter the friendship. But also friends that have chosen not to have kids, and suddenly you're plunged into, you know, breast pumps and nappies and all that. And it can shift as well, can't it? Did you find, did you find that within your friendship circle? Yeah, completely. I mean, I've got a lot of friends from school and a lot of friends from like you,

like a lot of long-term pals that I think, isn't it the rule that if you're over seven years, that's it for life, you'll be friends with them forever. So I was never really worried about my proper friends. There was a couple of new friends that I just, you know, you'd go out all the time, you'd go out holiday with and you do all these things. The fun stuff. Yeah. The fun stuff, yeah. And I remember when we found out we were pregnant, we didn't want to tell people for a really long time because we, again, you don't really know what you're doing.

You don't know what the right and wrong thing is. But one of Steve's, a colleague or someone that he knew had had a miscarriage. So we were very much like, let's just keep this in our bubble. and not tell anyone friend-wise until 12 weeks. We told our parents around eight or seven weeks, which was so hard to do.

So difficult. But I just, I avoided people a lot. And I think having that, you know, not going out for your brunches, I was maybe seen as like, oh, what's happened to her? She's not the fun one anymore. You're crossed off the fun list.

Yeah. You're crossed off. You're not being present as much. And I remember going to go. out for a big lunch with all the all the girls and you know they were drinking and I was like oh you know I'm driving home so I can't have a drink and I remember thinking I've not even told my mum yet so I can't tell these yeah I can't tell these people that are my friends yeah I just couldn't and I think when I did tell a couple of people they were just like oh okay I'm like okay and

it's that you it's a very extreme way of finding out who your friends are but you really do find out who your friends are. And there's people I haven't spoken to since. And they haven't even met Billy. Yeah. I used to find it ironic that those sort of fun friends who suddenly when I had small babies, I was crossed off the fun list for like, for obvious reasons because I wasn't as available. But actually it's ironic because in those times you're so knee deep in nappies, you'd quite like a little bit of fun. It's almost like you need the fun. And you've been, sort of yeah uninvited

to the fun stuff. You have been uninvited and I remember one of my really good friends was saying that he was going to Mighty Hoopler and I was like well why wasn't I invited? And the thing is I wouldn't have gone anyway because I didn't want to

but I'd like to be invited please I totally agree you know like I don't want to go to you know sweaty nightclubs anymore I really don't but I'd like to be asked I'd like to be asked yeah maybe I would

I mean, when you're so in that sort of sleep deprivation, breastfeeding, constant, constant nappies, you think that that's going to be the way of life forever. You don't think you're ever going to sleep again. You don't think your body is ever going to be yours ever again. So when people do say, oh, well, you know, book tickets for this, do you want to come? And you're like, no, I can't. And you should kind of understand that I can't do that. But I will.

And you need to remember that you will do it one day. You will. I'm going to a gig next month. Yeah, I'm brilliant. Congratulations. Where are you going? I'm so excited. Are we going to see, we're seeing Olivia Dean, which I was talking about.

Excellent. I'm not. I can't believe it. Very, very excited. But so I wish I kind of knew that you will go out again and you will enjoy life again. And who will, who from your village will be babysitting when you go out? Steve, Steve's got her for the night. Okay, girls only.

That's gone. Yeah. Yeah, dad's got her. Dad's got her. Yeah. And of course you've got to congratulate you, the both of you. You've got a wedding coming up in July. Yes. Congratulations. What can you tell us? How's the planning going? I keep forgetting about it because there's just so much going on. It's quite a big thing to forget, Rosie. It is a big thing. It is a big thing. Yeah, we're really excited. I know your mom is definitely super excited. She is really excited. She's got her, her dress. finally.

Oh, good. You need to sort Billy's dress. I think I'm going to get two dresses for her because I know inevitably one's going to get some sort of food smeared on it

so I thought we need to sort that. Yeah. Something will happen. But yeah, she's the flower girl. Of course. It's going to be in Scotland, which will be lovely. But I've got my first dress fitting

in like two weeks' time. I remember trying on dresses the start of the year when I was still, start of last year, God, when I was still breastfeeding and not myself and just being like, oh, God, this is horrible.

But it got better because time heals. Yeah, we're really excited, really excited. More excited about Bailey, to be honest, dressing up, being in a beautiful dress and having a flower wand. She's not having a flower basket, she's having a wand, and she waves her, petals will come out. Magical. How lovely that she can be part of your big death, and that's so sweet.

Yeah. I know. It's so cute. So cute. So life is moving in a, you know, quite a new direction because obviously Billy's 18 months. And like you say, these things do pass and they move forward. And obviously you're promoting the book and you're working again. But when you had Billy, you thought you were going to go back to work after six months.

Is that right? But obviously, didn't. No. Tell us a bit about that. Tell us a bit about that moment. Oh, so funny. Yeah, I think I remember I was about five months pregnant and I went to view nurseries and where we lived. And we obviously don't live in that area anymore anyway because everything changes. And I'm thinking, oh yeah, six months. That seems like a really good time to sort of, you know, get back into things. And as soon as I had her, I was like, there is no way I can do anything ever again. I had that in my head. I can't function as a human being. And I needed a lot more time.

So it was less about the sort of attachment to her, but it was more about my brain and where you were in your place. It was my, I mean, every kind of date or appointment, I would have to like triple check it that I wasn't getting it wrong. And I'd have to say to Steve, this is this time that this is happening. You know, even like baby, stuff like baby swimming that I did with her and we did like a sensory class, I got that time perfect, but anything that I had to do appointment-wise or like even seeing.

And I still do it today with friends. I let people down because I'm, you know, a day ahead or a day late and when I'm supposed to meet them. It's your brain is gone. But I think it was more for me of just I'm, I can't, I can't, I'm just not ready to go back at six months. And rightly so, that's just not what the normal thing is anyway. It's a year, right? So I had it being like, okay, maybe I'll go back and do a year. but then with the beauty of the book that came,

I was doing that. So I had that to do. And I didn't want to put any pressure on kind of going back and doing the work I was doing before because, I mean, I was working for a radio station doing like 7pm to 1am hours. And it was just silly. So that was never going to work. Yeah. Especially when you're not sleeping.

Like, she, I was lucky if I got two hours with her in the first few months. It was rough. That's hardcore. It is tough. When did that switch for you? So I stopped doing night feeds. She started sleeping a little bit longer. She was able to do like 7 o'clock till 10. So that's when I would write.

And then 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock I used to feed her. And then she sort of started to sleep until 1. So then I thought, well, if you can do that, I'm not going to feed you. I'm going to stop the dream feed that everyone talks about. So I thought if you can make it till 1, we'll wait until then. and then we transferred onto one bottle at night time so that her dad or my mom could take her for a night or take her for that chunk and I could not

I could go and chill out for a bit and not have that and then at nine months I stopped breastfeeding at nine months that's when she kind of was like not really interested maybe it's because she couldn't smell I don't know because I found stopping really difficult no one really talks about that enough how hard that is really really difficult and like hand expressing and stuff

and you know don't pump because then your milk will still go but if you don't pump you'll just explode so like what do you do but yeah I had a really lovely woman helped me with breastfeeding from the breastfeeding network team I think it's called that I need to double I will double check but her name was Donna

she was the most amazing which she came over the first two weeks of Billy's life I'm going on a tangent now but she was to help me with the latch and I think she was supposed to be there for half an hour and she stayed for four hours because I was a complete mess. She said she had a little blister,

a little white blister. Love Donna. And I was just in tears because I thought I've given her the blister, but actually breastfeeding is a two-way thing. It's a team work. It's not just you. It's her.

It's the baby as well. So yeah, that was a lot. But yeah, sorry, I've gone on a complete tangent. We talked about weddings and then we were talking about flower petal ones. Going back to work life, I was talking to a colleague. And they were saying how, you know, you can't win sometimes as a parent, especially as a mom, because you can go back to work after six months.

And everyone's like, why are you going back to work? You're not bringing up your kid. You're leaving him or her at six months in the hands of, you know, a random person in nursery. And then if you were to stay home, then people are saying, why are you still at home? Why aren't you back at work? You know, what are you doing all day? Your brain's going to go to mush. So we just can't win sometimes as well, come in?

No, you can't win. You can't win. I said, I had this the other day when I was filling a form out of the doctors and it was, you had to put your occupation. And because it's over a year now since, you know, maternity leave, I was like, what do I put? What is my occupation? Yeah. Yeah, like, what do I, what do I do? Because I am self-employed and then, but then I'm not really working.

And it's just a whole thing of like, can we stop putting boxes, please? Can we stop? Yeah. Yeah, just let people do what they want to do. How has it been reclaiming your identity then if you're not necessarily back at work, as in back in your old job? But 18 months has passed and you've got this little human in your life. How has sort of reclaiming identity been for you?

Or is it not really been a matter of reclaiming it? You always had it. I think, yeah, I think you always get that sort of the identity thing. I think for me it was more sort of the autonomy of everything. Like I don't think about me anymore. I'm constantly thinking about what she's eating. And maybe that's because she's not a nursery yet. It's me that I'm thinking constantly about, you know, how long is she napped for?

And how long, you know, if she's done that, well, then we need to do this. And it's more about having that. But I have had it in the past few weeks of, oh, God, I've, you know, the people that I had the antenatal group with, they have businesses, they have corporate jobs and they're doing both. And I'm like. Yeah. barely doing one. Yeah.

So that's really, really, it's a lot. But I'm so lucky that I think it's, I do think it's more of a juggle for me, because my mum, I'm so lucky with what she does. She gets home at about half 11 in the morning. And then I can go and work because she can have her. I can then go and do some work at the house, or I can go into London for the afternoon and get back for her dinner.

So, and we live six minutes away. So having that is huge. A huge help. You know, some days it's going. going into London and doing that and then the other day it's baby swimming and covered in food. Being in your joggers all day. Tell me, I'm interested. I've got a good idea.

But tell me what type of grand your mum is to Billy. Very hands on. Very hands on. Very obsessed. She definitely is. She's told me multiple times. Yeah, she loves her. And my dad loves.

My dad treats her. like glass. I think it's maybe a granddad thing because when my mum and dad had me, my dad was the one that gave me my first bath and he's the one that took me to swimming. He's the one that kind of did all of these things that you wouldn't really associate dads with at the time. And now he's like he's like this with Billy. He's like oh my god, what do I what do I do with her? Like I'm taking her out today as it's funny. I still haven't had any messages so I guess everything's fine. Oh, that's going to be lovely.

So they're the perfect doting grandparents then. They're perfect. Honestly, I don't know what I would do without them. It would be a totally different experience. And I can't imagine, you know, not living near them is, I mean, when I was a teenager, I couldn't think of anything worse. Yeah, I'm over my 20s. Like, why who wants to live next to their parents? But I have.

And now it's like, why aren't you in? Where are you? Where are you? Like I say that's where I'm like, what do you mean you're out for dinner? and enjoy yourself. And my mum's like, we're going to go on holiday for a week. I'm like, no, you're not.

No. You cannot. You can't do that. So funny. So funny. So Rosie, I want to ask because we don't want to obviously add to too much information, but I think it's really important to hear personal experiences. So if there was one piece of advice that you'd give to a new mum in those early weeks,

what would it be? Oh my gosh. don't make too much in your head about what is perfect because that's not how your baby is going to thrive. Just love them. Just love them is my big advice. And be kind to yourself because you're in charge. I think it's really important to know that you're in control as long as, I mean, it does not feel like that. And it never will. It still doesn't for me.

But I think it's that thing of you have to give yourself a little bit of ease. Love that. It's true. You've got to feel confident, I think, as well, haven't you? You do. And I think as well, for me, the big thing that I, I remember a nurse told me that she wishes every new mom had this tattooed on her head. I think it should be tattooed on your arms. You can see it. But everything is temporary. The good and the bad. Yeah. And I wish I knew that a little bit more. I wish I really got that. And it's hard to say that and think that when you're, you know, you've had an hour's sleep. But. It really is temporary and it gets better. It does get better. It's true, the good and the bad, like you say.

Everything's a phase and that could be the sleepless nights and the trouble feeding. But also the little gurgly giggles are a phase and the little roll loafers on the tummy. And it's appreciating those moments as well. Not trying to sort of wish time on too much. Right. But I'm going to pick this up with a J.B. It's got a quick fire. question session for you.

Yes. Over to you, J.B. Yes. So Rosie, these are your quick fire questions. Real life for Rosie Kelly. There's not many. Okay, you ready? Yeah, I think so.

I'm not just nervous now. Don't worry. Don't worry. Okay. First question. One word to describe life with a toddler. Chaos. Chaos, good word.

But lovely chaos. Two words. Sorry. It's fine. Who really runs the house? You, Steve or Billy? Well, I think Billy. Yeah.

It's always the way, isn't it? Actually, Ruby, our dog, she's like, she's sometimes more annoying than anyone. Yeah, I forgot about Ruby, to be fair. Biggest shock of new motherhood. Oh. If we can remember. Oh, probably.

Oh, God. It's not one word, but it's time. Okay. Like you don't, like, I remember before, before Billy, I'd be like, oh, I just don't have time to do that. And now I'm like, what did I do with all this infinite amount of time? Yeah. I had. Like, what?

Yeah, yeah. Probably time. It's funny how that reality changes as time goes on, speaking of that. Yeah. Okay. One piece of advice, again, if you can remember, that you ignored and we're glad that you did. Oh, don't spoil the baby. Or you can't, what do they say?

They always say, oh no, you can't spoil a baby. So for me it would be that thing of don't make a rod for your own back. I had that said to me a few times. And it's not about that. You have to respond to your baby's needs. And there's nothing wrong with that. And you shouldn't feel penalized or have any pressure to not do what is right for your baby because they're all different.

But also you're different as well. All moms are different in the way that they do things, but it still gets done. Yeah. And it still works. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a big one. I used to hear it takes three days to create a habit and three days to undo a habit. Well, I've not had that one.

No, never it. See, there's just so many, aren't there? That's... Yeah. But the thing is with babies, things change in such quick time frames. You know, like, as we get older, it. If we're trying to, as adults, we're trying to do something, it can take us like six months to get. into running or six months to change the way our approach to alcohol or whatever it is.

But as a baby, as a small human, those habits conform within like three days and three days sound too, apparently. Yeah, love that. Okay, just a couple more. Google or Granny who wins? I think I know the answer to this one. I love the question. Granny, granny.

Any kind of mum that has done it before, you do not need to go to Google, just go to to go to your pals. Absolutely. Absolutely. Describe Billy in three words. You get a few more words this time. Oh, yay. Okay.

Hilarious. Oh, God, this is difficult. Hilarious. She's very independent. Very independent. And I think cheeky. She's so cheeky. Love that.

And maybe I've got another word hungry because she loves her food. Oh, good girl. Sorry, I did four. It's all. It's all right. We'll let it pass. We'll let it pass. And finally, what is one thing that you'd say to a brand new mum listening right now? Oh my gosh. Something that probably I wish someone said to me was just how amazing you are doing, but you have to believe that. And you have to, it's your journey. Don't compare it to anyone else's. And you're doing it. You're doing it. Whether you're, you know, however you're doing it, you're doing it. And that is, that's what's amazing.

And my gosh. Wow. Keep doing it. Keep doing it. It's a big job, right? It's a big job that we do. And it is hard to sort of get right. But then what is right, do you know what to me?

It's like right looks very different. What's right is what's right for you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Rosie, thank you so much for your honest conversation today. Yes, thank you, Rosie. So good to speak to you. Thank you.

That was so lovely. You too. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms out there and dads too that found a lot of your more honest conversations around the sort of postpartum anxiety and things like that. Really useful and interesting. So thanks for speaking out about that. Hope so. No, that's all right.

You. Rosie's book Mother to Mother is out now. It's a beautiful, reassuring read for anyone navigating new motherhood. Yes, indeed. Well, we hope you guys enjoyed this parenting conversation. If you'd like to hear more about family life, need support or reassurance, you can find it at netmums.com and on the netmum's socials. And if you enjoyed this episode, hit follow, leave a review.

Come and join the netmoms community where the real parenting conversations are happening. And as always, we'd love to hear from you, so drop us a line. Yes, see you next time. See ya.