The Netmums Podcast - S19 Ep12: Family Food Made Easy: #2 Snack Wins: Boosting Fibre Between Meals with Nichola Ludlam-Raine & Dr. Clare Holley

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

If there’s one thing most parents can rely on, it’s being asked for a snack – usually about five minutes after you’ve cleared away the last meal. So rather than adding another thing to the parenting to-do list, could we make one of those snack moments work a little harder?This episode has one simple goal: to make just one of your child’s daily snacks a fresh source of fibre. And it might be easier than you think.Nutritionist Nichola Ludlam-Raine explains why fibre is so important for children’s health, and how something as simple as choosing a fresh, fibre-rich snack can contribute towards both their fibre intake and their five-a-day. Think an apple, pear or some carrot sticks: one snack, double win.But knowing what we’d like our children to eat and getting them to actually eat it are two very different things. Dr Clare Holley, an expert in child eating behaviour, shares practical ways to encourage children to try fresh foods, build familiarity and make them part of everyday snack routines – without pressure, persuasion or turning snack time into a battle.Because getting more fibre into family life doesn’t have to mean a big dietary overhaul. Sometimes, it can start with just one snack.This episode is part of a special three-part series from The Netmums Podcast and Veg Power, supported by Sainsbury’s – helping families discover simple, affordable and achievable ways to get more fibre into everyday life. For more food advice and inspiration, follow Veg Power on social media, and for more real-life parenting advice, head to Netmums.com or follow Netmums on socials.This episode was proudly produced by Decibelle.

Welcome to Family Food Made Easy, a special three-part podcast from NetMums and Veg Power, supported by Sainsbury's. NetMums is where real parenting conversations happen and what could be more relatable than the daily challenge of feeding our families, what to cook, what our children will actually eat, how much it costs and whether we're getting enough of the good stuff into them along the way. I'm your host, Louise Burke, and together with Sainspris, we're exploring how we can make good family food more joy. joyful, accessible and affordable every day. If you're a parent, you'd probably hear, can I have a snack roughly about four to seven times a day, including somehow five minutes after dinner? And we know what you're thinking. Please don't give me another thing I'm supposed to be doing with my children's food. But we're not. This episode is called snack wins for a reason. The challenge is really simple. Could you make just one

of those daily snacks a fresh source of fibre. That's it, just one snack, because something as simple as fruit, veg, nuts or seeds can help boost their fibre and count towards their fire a day. A little double win. Dietician Nicola Ludlam Rain is here on the podcast to tell us why that small change can make a difference and why it's important that we listen. Then Dr. Claire Holly, a senior lecturer at Loughborough University, whose research focuses on how we can encourage healthy eating behaviours and children is tackling the question parents really want answering. How do we get our children to actually eat it? No pressure, no bribery, no turning snack time into a negotiation. Sounds heaven, right? Just practical ways to make fresh, fibre rich foods feel like a normal

part of everyday life. So Nicola, welcome to family food made easy. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be here. So let's start with a big picture. Why? Why is fibre so important for children and what is it actually doing in their bodies as they grow? Yeah, so fibre is super important for both children and adults, but it's basically the parts of plant foods that's not completely broken down by the small intestine. So basically it gets to the large bowel and that's where it does lots of different jobs. So it might bulk up your stool. It might help your poo to go nicely through the digestive system. And that's really important because lots of children can have constipation.

But I think the main thing that's so special about fibre is that some fibres, they basically feed our gut bugs. And those gut bugs do a whole host of different things from supporting our immune system to our mood, even our weight. So that's why fibre is so important. Interesting, really interesting. Because you mentioned there that something like constipation, that's often quite a problem for children, especially when they're sitting all day in class and not going to the toilet. But this is an easy answer for parents if they're worried about that, isn't it? It really is.

In clinic, I like to use the acronym FFM. So when it comes to your bowels, think fiber, fluids and movement. So lots of different types of fibre spread throughout the day, an adequate amount of fluid, again, spaced nicely throughout the day, and then movement. And those three things together help to keep your gut and your digestive system moving, which reduces the risk of constipation. And you mentioned then space through the day. Why is it important?

Because I've picked up on lots of different tips around fibre recently because I'm in my fibre bunny hole at the moment recording this podcast. But I read a lot about spacing out fibre not to like go, you know, don't go all in straight away. Space it out, do it gradually. Why is that? And why is that important maybe more so with children? Yeah. So I think the advice is to go low and slow.

if your child doesn't eat much fiber, the last thing we want is to add in a load of fiber the following day because that's when unwanted symptoms might occur. So the key is to gradually increase fiber, gradually alongside fluids, but remember that little people means smaller amounts. So although the average adult needs around 30 grams of fiber a day, actually the average 5 to 11 year old only needs about 20, the average 2 to 5 year old 15, which is half. So maybe the message is to remove the pressure that adults may feel that their child needs to eat five portions of adult-sized fruit and veggie day, the amount of fibre that we should be eating. Actually, it's often half the amount. But it is true that there's, you know, the fact

is that it's 86% of primary school age children aren't actually getting enough fibre. So even though you say that younger age group is 15 grams and the older age group is 20, they're still not getting enough. What do you hear from, like, well, firstly, why aren't the children getting enough, do you think? When you've, you know, we've admitted ourselves that they probably eat about 47 to 90 snacks a day, a slight exaggeration, but near enough. And so why aren't they getting enough? But also, what do you hear from clients or that you speak to that might reach out to you for support around how to feed their children. And I'm speaking as a busy mum of two.

I've got a four-year-old, my seven-year-old. I know what it's like. I think lives nowadays are busier than ever. Often both parents are working. And also we're dealing with things like after-school clubs, which takes up time. We're dealing with food allergies and also school rules that don't allow, for example, nuts. So we've got a long list of things. I mean, my son has got multiple food allergies.

And all these do is that they add in barriers. And then I think it's that together with the fact that we know that a lot of ultra-processed foods are on the rise. And many of them are very much lacking in nutrients and also fibre. So I think it's that combination that has naturally resulted in kids not eating their five a day, not having enough fiber. However, there are ways around it. And it doesn't require a total overhaul. It just requires, as you said at the start, one snack at a time. also role modelling. Remember as parents, you're the gatekeepers to the food that comes into the

house and little tweaks, getting kids involved, we can make a big difference overall. So can, rather than rethinking snack time completely or how we feed our children completely, what are those small tweaks? So you say like one snack a day, change it into something else to make a difference. What would be your suggestion and why? Yeah, exactly. So once kids are no longer babies, they're over 12 months, these snacks, let's say, for example, you know, a couple or two to three snacks a day can become really important times where you're getting in nutrients. So fiber may be some protein throughout the day. And I think that there are a great way and an opportunity to tick off one of your five a day. You may have heard of not only a five a day, but eat the

rainbow. And what we know is that eating the rainbow provides not just fiber, but lots of different nutrients, including polyphenols. And that's what our kids will use to stay healthy, to ward off, coughs and colds. So when it comes to snack time, I'm a big believer in thinking protein and produce. So that means protein and fiber. Is it an apple with some cheese? Is it yogurt and berries? Is it some smooth nut butter and some banana? And what that snack does is it not only is a break throughout the day where kids could, you know, just like wind down for a moment, but it gives them physical energy and it gives them nutrients that's going to power not only their day, but they're the week and the month ahead by supporting their immune system.

So, okay, so if we're talking about changing maybe like one snack, let's keep it easy, keep it simple for parents. And if they were to change one snack, could we, would it be acceptable or would it make a difference, should I say, if we changed that one snack and it was that same one snack that we changed every single day? Would that still have benefit? 100% just to keep it simple. Yeah, that one snack doesn't have to do everything, but it can be that one reliable little win and when you repeat that every single day, it will bring about big changes. And although variety is key, we know that some children more than others really like consistency. And if your child has got a fay fruit or vegetable, it does not matter if they have that every single day.

You know, bananas, apples, carrots, peppers. I think my son has peppers almost every single day because for me it's an easy win. So I think parents need to stack up on these easy wins and then maybe at a different meal time will introduce a new fruit and bed then. But alongside those what we call safe foods or those favourite foods to encourage kids to sit down and give it a try.

Yeah, great. So when we say fibre, I think let's be sort of honest or realistic, I think a lot of us picture brown bread or something quite dry or beige, which I've just said all that and it doesn't sound appealing, does it? But the thought of giving your child some bram flakes as NACON seems so alien. I mean, you know, I did that. I think maybe with some cereal bits when my kid was like two,

but that just won't pass, you know, when they're seven or eight. Is our understanding of where fibre comes from actually far too narrow? Yeah, 100%. I mean, still now, if I think of fiber in our mind, you almost think of, you know, like some dry cardboard, ramp flakes, or some crackers, but actually you get fibre from a whole range of different food. So you've got fruits and vegetables, not only the whole fruit, but you've got the skin and the inside. So if you can keep the skin on, then great. More fibre is there.

You've got things like beans, peas, chickpeas, lentils. So you could add lentils to a bolognese, even hummus. You've got whole grain breads and cereals. So, for example, it doesn't have to be whole meal bread. It could be 50-50 or it could be porridge. Things like Pasti, you've got different types of pasta now, like lentil pasta, chickpea pasta, as well as you could mix half and half white and brown. Things like, I've mentioned, nuts and seeds, but nuts making sure that they're ground or as nut butter, especially for the little kids. And once they get of a certain age, even popcorn, it is a fantastic snack. Yeah. So, and not forgetting the fun toasted snacks, like you can put things like butter beans or chickpeas, peas, sweet corn in an air fryer with some herbs and spices, bit of oil, crisp them up.

and it makes them really nice and crunchy. So yeah, I'm a big fan of those foods. That's one that I need to try. Hands up, I've not tried that one and I've heard that tip a few times now and I'm determined to do that the next few weeks because it sounds delicious. Is there anything any parents should know

before they start increasing fibre in their child's diet? And we talked about, you know, sort of introducing it gradually, but is there anything else about like drinking water or times of day or before activity or anything like that? Yeah, I think the key is to not make any big changes and to gradually increase the amount of fibre. So, for example, if you currently have white bread, I wouldn't just say to swap to whole meal three times a day, maybe go for 50-50 or maybe go for whole meal just once a day. And also, remember that there's different types of fibre. So the insoluble fiber is like the vegetable skins and that adds bulk.

And then the soluble fiber, that basically pulls in water and it keeps everything. nice and soft. And you get those types of fibre from things like oats and linseeds. So I would say if you're struggling to get to the toilet, including things like porridge and maybe a sprinkling of linseeds on top first, might be the number one thing to try before incorporating more of the brown carbs. And just remembering that not every single carbohydrate needs to be brown, because we, although fibre is great because it fills us up, we don't want to fill up little tummies too much at the expense of other nutrients. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier about maybe some symptoms that you might experience if you did

increase fibre too quickly and too much. Could you explain some of those and how you can prevent some of those? Yeah. So if you do it increase fibre too much for a child or an adult, it can actually trigger excessive bloating. So a little bit of bloating is normal, but it might be uncomfortable. And it can actually trigger the opposite of what we want, which is constipation. or maybe in some cases, loose stools. What I would say is that if you're concerned about your child's bowels, maybe keep a diary and definitely speak to your doctor or your health visitor, especially if you see any blood or any mucus or it's associated with any poor growth.

So definitely with children, seek advice. But if you've got a healthy child, increasing fibre gradually bit by bit, alongside enough water should be okay. and their bowels opening, you know, once or twice a day, easy to go, it should be completely normal. So Nicola, for a parent thinking, my child's diet isn't perfect, and now I've got fibre to worry about, too. Thinking about shopping lists and school meals and the cost of these meals as well, what would you want them to hear? I would say that fibre isn't one more thing to feel guilty about, and that child's diet is built up over several days, weeks, months, and you shouldn't judge it on a single snack, or you've got a really fussy or a busy afternoon. So start with what the child already accepts and knows. And remember to add in rather than the focusing on taking away. So can you add some berries to a yogh or some fruit alongside a biscuit or some veggies, dicks alongside crackers or some hummus? And remember that repeated exposure matters. So I've got four-year-old who's extremely fussy and I know that it takes time. You think that you're getting nowhere to begin with. But that repeated exposure and that role modelling and even having

a little nibble does build and you will get there over time. And remember that it doesn't have to be fresh as well because you can add frozen fruits to a smoothie. You can have tinned fruits and veggies. They're often a lot cheaper and actually the frozen fruits and vegetables contain more nutrients such as vitamin C than the fresh. So if you feel like there's, you know, more food waste than you'd like, you can revert back to these other options which won't go off. That is a brilliant tip because I feel so disheartened when I see the blueberries in my fridge that I haven't spent 399 on starting to get a little bit furry. And I'm like, no, I'm going to throw them away. But if I have them in the freezer, they're, I think, cheaper, frozen and less longer. So that's a great

tip. Thank you. Thank you for that. Some really good tips. I've actually got one more tip actually that I do with my kids. Can I throw that in? Yeah. Absolutely. A really practical tip is to maximize the time when you know that your kids are going to get hungry. So what I do is I give them a little snack tray that is literally filled with lots of different colorful fruits and veggies all cut up. It might be some quartered grapes. It might be chopped up raw pepper. We've got some cucumber.

And I just leave it on a platter just before, let's say half an hour before their dinner. And I don't put any pressure on it. I just leave it there. And I have been shocked at how much gets eaten. Because they're hungry, right? Exactly. And then when they have their evening meal, You know, if they don't have as much veg as what I'd like, I know that I've already, I've already got it in beforehand.

I haven't snuck it in. I've just left it there. And I might have some as well, so then I'm role modelling as well. And I talk about the benefits that they're getting. I don't talk about good and bad foods. I talk about my son really wants to run fast. So they're getting lots of nutrients to help with that. Or my daughter wants her hair to grow.

So we talk about foods very positively rather than that's a bad food. we talk about eating less of biscuits and more of fruits and vegetables, not none and, you know, good and bad, just more often and maybe less often. Brilliant. Some real advice from a parent and an expert. I love it. I love it when the two worlds collide. Yeah, it's helpful doing what I do, but it doesn't take away any of the stress and problems that kids throw up. It's still really hard, let's face it. But we do what we can. We do our best. We do. Thanks, Nicola. Stuck in the endless What's for Tea Tonight Loop. Saved 100 healthy recipe videos but still cooking the same five meals.

Or do you find yourself stuck in the supermarket aisles staring at boxes of breakfast cereals wondering which is the healthiest? I do. And that's 10 minutes of my life I'm never going to get back. We all want our families to eat well but between stretch budgets, busy lives and an overwhelming amount of advice, it can feel surprisingly complicated. Sainsbury's wants to make that easier. It's campaigning to make good food more affordable and accessible for everyone, breaking down some of the everyday challenges to eating well. And through initiatives like its new full-on fibre labelling, it's making it simpler to spot choices that can help us get more fruit,

veg and fibre into our family's diet, because let's face it, we're all for a simpler life. So the really reassuring message from Nicola is that we don't have to completely overhaul what our children eat. Small changes count and even changing just one snack a day to something fresh and fibre rich is a win. We've heard the why. Fiber helps keeps things moving. It feeds the good bacteria in the gut and supports our children's health. But now for the bit that can sometimes feel a little bit trickier, actually getting our children to eat it. Because putting out the fruit or veg is one thing, getting them to choose it, especially when

there are other snacks on offer, can be quite another. We all. know this. So how do we turn that good intention into something that actually works in real family life? Dr Claire Holly dedicated her PhD to looking specifically at how to increase vegetable consumption in early childhood. So she is exactly the person we need to take us from the why to the how. Claire, let's start with that one snack a day idea. If we want our children to choose a fresh, fibre rich snack more often, where do we begin? Well, I think first, first First of all, we acknowledge that these things are going to take time. We can't just expect our children to go from having packet snacks that are low in fibre

more processed to suddenly wanting to eat a completely plain apple or something like that. So I think the first thing is thinking about meeting our children where they are in their eating journey. And the second thing is to go in with the mindset that this is what I'm doing today, what I'm doing tomorrow might be different and no day is going to be perfect. So I feel like in a way, I don't mean to do this, but we have made it sound beautifully simple. Just make that one swap. But what if your child takes one look at the apple or the carrot sticks on the table or in your hand or in a Tupperware when you pick them up from school and just says, no thanks.

What do you do? I think it's inevitable. Children vary hugely in their approach to foods and in their approach to changes in the foods they're expecting. So I think the thing you can do to set yourself up with the best opportunity, and this might sound silly, but make sure you're taking a time when your child's definitely hungry. I think as parents, we become very risk-averse and we don't want our children to ever be hungry. We seem to have a real preoccupation of being concerned that kids are going to be hungry. And the best thing that you can do actually is rather than go, oh, well, I'll try this when it's really low-risk.

because it doesn't matter if they don't eat it. Well, actually, I mean, if you're not hungry and you're offered a snack, you'd probably say no unless it was the absolute favorite thing, you know. Yeah, like, like a crisp. Exactly. I'm like, I'll always eat by no crisps. Morning meeting, you know, turn up at 10 o'clock. There's coffee and quassons.

Well, I've already had breakfast, but that's fine. Thank you very much. I don't take one of the green apples sat in the bowl, though. So I think start by ensuring that your child is hungry and think about what might fit your child. the things that they like to eat and avoids the worst of the things that they don't like to eat. It's interesting what you're saying there, like how as parents, well, when you were saying that, I was saying, oh God, that was me, especially when they were younger.

Like, are they hungry? It's just like you're obsessed with like sleep and hunger, aren't you? And making sure they've got a full belly. So, yeah, I think if we're, maybe we should like just do a self-check and realize that if we're obsessed with that, we should be spotting those signs when they are actually hungry. So why can snack choices become so fixed for children? Because I know, like you said, a lot of parents can be risk averse. It's that one reason.

But also, they can be quite stubborn with their eating habits, can't they? Oh, absolutely. So just to make sure your listeners know, I know you already know, Louise, I have got two kids myself. So I have a three-year-old and a six-year-old. So I am in the trenches with everybody else, despite all of my wonderful research. So I think the first thing to say is that children, when they're developing, part of development is that you develop what we call schema, these kind of fixed cognitive ideas,

which help us to navigate day-to-day life. So we develop very easily fixed ideas about what something should or shouldn't be. And one of those things will be snacks. So, by the same token, if you gave your child a snack for dinner, they would say, well, where's my dinner? You know, we develop these very clear ideas of what we are expecting to help us to navigate our day. So that's one thing. So if they've only ever had a narrow selection of snack foods, then having something else will make them go, but that's not a snack. Whereas actually, a snack is just a small amount of any food.

So are you saying that kids don't like surprises when it comes to food? Yeah, I think perhaps not that they don't like surprises, but that they will always have a reaction which is surprise if it's something outside of what they're expecting. But the thing about packet foods is particularly interesting. So if we think about, for example, an apple, apples come in, I mean, actually hundreds of varieties, but we see, you know, a handful of different varieties within our food shops. They're different colours. They have completely different flavour profiles. Some are sour, some are sweet, some are really fragrant, some are very bland, some are crispy, some are a bit musher.

They're hugely varied. So if you give a child an apple, they may well have no idea what they're going to experience. Whereas if you give your child a packet of crispy, crunchy snacks, that packets of snacks is always exactly the same. There isn't that inherent variability. And that makes it something which children can really ease. categorise as safe and likable. So that's one of the big challenges.

I've heard you speak before as well about children with send needs as well and how they'll tend to lean more into those sort of habitual snacks rather than anything different. Can you explain that? It's quite interesting. Is it the blueberry theory or something? Oh, I don't know. How blueberries all look the same, but they don't all taste the same. Exactly. So with apples, there are quite clear markers of ones which will taste in red, green ones versus red ones, etc.

Blueberries all look the same. However, sometimes you eat a blueberry and it's lovely and sweet and full of flavor and wonderful. Another time you eat a blueberry and it is sharp. And then you might have one that's just very, very watery. And send children in particular often have very sensitive senses. So the mouth feel, the sound that it's, makes when you're eating something, that's much louder to them. And the flavor profiles are much more exaggerated. So that can mean that children in those situations are much more adverse to anything that has inherent variability. If they don't know exactly what they're going to get, they're going to become even more likely to reject it. So, I mean, I'd use the phrase safe foods for all children. All children have foods that they will always eat no matter what is happening. Plain

pasta is an almost universal one. Plane chips is another almost universal one. And for Send Children, that packet snack becomes one of these very safe foods. The interesting thing is with Send Children, you can even get to the point where you cannot switch brand. It has to be the same brand because that's part of their cognitive schema, their notion of what that safe food is. And things can even disrupt it like seasonal packaging.

So when you get the Christmas variety, I once had a fantastic talk from a woman who had autism spectrum disorder and as a child was an incredibly selective eater. And one of the things that made her life incredibly difficult was every year when her favorite chocolate bars became Christmas branded and then she couldn't eat them. So about 60% of her diet was immediately removed overnight. So her mum used to stockpile the plain ones without any seasonal branding around Christmas or, you know, the Olympics or anything else. So these things really do matter. And as adults, we've got used to the fact that so many things are variable that we just accept variability in a very resilient way without even really realizing. Children just don't have that knowledge yet.

So if we go back to like the idea of making our children's diet, healthier. We spoke with dietitian Nicola earlier in the podcast. She was mentioning children need fibre in their diets in order to tackle things like constipation and make our tummies work harder and better and so we're going to the toilet regularly. Because there is a stat that hospital diagnosis of childhood constipation in England increased by 46% for children between the ages of nought 16 over the decade leading up to 2023 and 2004. But this surged by 60% specifically for primary school age 4 to 11. So clearly, and we talked about it on the previous episode about the fibre gap in primary

school age children being 8 to 6% not getting their daily intake. So, okay, so if we want to introduce a new fresh snack to our. child, where should we start? Is it better to offer it alongside something they already know? Because we've talked about sort of familiarity and safe choices, or is it next to or partnered with something they like already? What's the best advice? So I think it depends on what outcome you want. If this is just something to tide them over until they get home, you can probably be a little bit more risky with your choice because that child's likely to be very hungry. And you know that there's no high stakes. They don't have to go and do anything on the energy that they gain from that snack.

And also, you know, if we're talking about things like fresh fruits and vegetables, we do need to think about the fact that a purely fresh fruit or vegetable snack is not going to be sufficient for a child that needs a decent calorie intake. So if you're looking at a child that's coming home from school and they need something to occupy them on the way home to stop the hangar, which my kids certainly have. Then we all know about the hangar. Then I think you can actually be a bit riskier in those moments. Your child is hungry, they're more motivated to want to eat those foods.

But if it's another time when, say, you're at home and your child knows what's in your kitchen, it might be a little bit trickier to persuade them that know the only thing you're allowed as an apple without suddenly piling pressure on them eating this apple and restricting all the other foods in the house. So on an occasion like that, offering a few things together might be your best winning tactics.

and particularly if they're kind of flavors which contrast each other enough to make them more palatable, more, something they want to eat more. So we all develop something called sensory-specific satiety, and this is where you... That sounds very scientific. It does, but it's really not. So, for example, if you're eating a packet of sweets, after you've had a certain number of sweets, you think, I can't eat any more sweets. They're too sickly.

And if what happens at that moment is somebody offers you a packet of, of ready salted crisps, you go, oh yeah, please, because it's a completely different flavour profile. So actually, a platter of things with different tastes on can also help your child to kind of try different foods at the same time because it's much more pleasurable for you when you're eating to have different flavors, which is why we all love, you know, tapas, chalcutory boards, all those little things. It's nice to have lots of different things.

Yeah. And then we talked about familiarity again. But how, what happens if, so, okay, I'm going to take that risk and I'm going to turn up to school with an apple and they reject it. How many times do I turn up with that apple? I would say that there are not, there's not a fixed number of times that you should do it for. Their idea should be that you just keep going with an apple. It might not always be that every day at the school gate you turn up with an apple or that you serve that apple in exactly the same way. but consider the kind of fundamental food that it is and think about just keeping going with that.

Almost everybody has a taste that they have learned to like. In fact, we all learn to like flavors. Some flavors we learn to like a lot more quickly. So sweet flavors, we learn to like a lot more quickly because they signal to our brain that there's sugar there, decent amount of calories, and that's important for survival. Likewise, things with a decent fat content or carbohydrate content. signals to our brains, you're going to get some good calories and energy from this. We all learn to like them really quickly.

But for things that don't have a lot of calories, but they do have really useful micronutrient, fiber, vitamins and minerals, all those sorts of things, it takes our body longer to learn that actually they're safe and they're worth eating. So one of the examples that a lot of adults can kind of see that way is things like olives, green vegetables for a lot of us, you know. So it's worth considering that actually your child just needs to learn to like that flavour. And that will happen eventually. I'm going to jump to another question that I had on my list, which was around presentation.

Yeah. Just because I feel like you were touching a little bit on it then. And it made me think, it reminded me actually, of a time where two of my kids, when they were much younger, used to actually like the skin of an apple. Yeah. So I used to peel. It's bizarre because they chose to eat it. But I think it was for them, obviously, just a real different texture

and a slightly maybe bitter taste for the skin rather than the flesh. And then I used to obviously end up eating this skinless apple afterwards. But, you know, I was like, okay, go for it, eat it. And I think it was kind of like they used to eat that in front of the TV actually. sort of like mindless way, in a way. But about presentation, we talked about, I'm using the basic example again of turning up with an apple after school, but we could turn up with an apple that's already sliced. We could turn up with apple skin.

We could turn up with a full apple. Can those little adjustments genuinely affect whether a child will eat something? Absolutely. Absolutely. So if your child is really intimidated by the sight of a whole apple with the skin on, then trying something else is always worth doing. If you have a child who refuses to eat the skin on apples, which is probably the slightly more common way than your kids,

you can think about doing something like offering them a peeled apple. Once they start accepting peeled apples and that's a thing that they like, you can do things like, I'm doing this with my three-year-old at the moment. If he's really hungry, he'll eat an apple with a little. skin on. But if he's not really hungry, he won't. And he eats it like corn on the cob and barely actually gets an apple. So what I started doing was peeling the apple so it's stripy. So it's half the skin's on there. And that's enough to kind of tempt him in to start eating it. And then he gets used to the peel. So it's creating these opportunities to kind

of entice your child and thinking it might be a thing worth eating. You talked about slicing an apple, for example. But you can also do things like pair the apple with another flavor that you know they really like. So if your child loves peanut butter, peanut butter is a really great dip for apple slices that means that they're then getting decent fat, fat content, fibre content, protein, other nutrients as well as the apple. So actually, you could give them some kind of flavor dip to go with their apple. You could sprinkle a bit of cinnamon on it. If you're not at the school gate and you're at home, you could actually just ask them, right, we're going to have some apple, what would you like with it? If they're more of a savory bod, then you could offer them

some little bits of cheese cut up with it. You could see if they want to put it on sticks. You could do it in big round slices that look more like crisps rather than boat-shaped slices if you're going to do sections. So I think just keeping an open mind in presenting it in a variety of ways and thinking about what your child might like. And slightly playful as well. Actually, you're talking like that as well as just reminded me with avocado. We used to make avocado boats. and do a drizzle of honey inside the boat. And wow, my daughter was then eating half an avocado most days, which was a big win. And she's 13 and she still asks for an avocado boat sometimes.

Brilliant. Yeah. So there's sort of playful things can stick as well, which are quite sweet, aren't they, for family memories as well. And the more playful things are, the more playful things are, it also reduces that stress and pressure for both of you. So you're feeling less stressed or nervous because we're just trying something out. Yeah. So I think one of the things I always say to parents is try to focus on the process rather than the outcome. Right.

So if you've got your child interested in looking at an apple, that's a win. Yeah. It's not the win that you might want as your ultimate goal. But in that moment, that's a win. If your child has helped you cut it up, if they've sniffed it, nicked it, All of those things contribute to whether or not they learn to like it. So they're all really useful steps. Have fun with the process with your child of however you choose to explore food together.

And yeah, focus less on the outcome. That's encouraging, isn't it? So that leans into like the exposure side of it. Like make them as exposed as possible to all these different fibre rich foods, whether it be anything from fruit and vegetables to beans to grains to oats and porridge, breakfast porridge as well. How do we encourage children without slipping into pressure though? Yeah.

Look, hands up, we are all guilty. I know I know I've said things like you can't leave the table until you've cleaned your plate or one more mouthful. You know, we all, we all do it. Like we said right at the beginning, we're all slightly obsessed with making sure that you're not hungry. But are we bribing? look, I know it's not the right thing to do. It has happened in my house, hands up. So how do we avoid slipping into those high-pressure moments?

I think, so first of all, I think perhaps me explaining a little bit about why those things aren't useful might be good. Because I think the more you understand what it is you're doing in those moments, the easier it is to be kind of conscious of what you're doing with your children. So if we take the example of a bribe, if you say, or even not a bribe, so perhaps a punishment, which parents don't actually realise they're necessarily doing, but you can't have your pudding until you eat your broccoli. What you immediately do in that situation is you are creating a hierarchy of foods and you're saying that that food that you're offering for them for dessert is better than broccoli. And you're saying that broccoli as a food on its own is not worth. worth eating because you have to be given something in exchange for eating it. So whether you do it as you can't have this until,

so kind of withholding a punishment or bribe, if you eat this, then you can have some chocolate or even you can have some more pasta once you've eaten your vegetables. All of these things put vegetables lower down the pecking order. They tell our children that they're inherently not worth eating off their own bats and that instead they need to be given something else in exchange for eating them. So that's the why we don't feel that those things are most helpful to do around children. And we know that pressuring children to eat, so you've got to eat three more bites, has a backfiring effect.

So one of the phrases I've said before is it might help you in the battle, but it's not going to help you in the war. So it might mean that your child eats their dinner, but it's not going to mean that they then willingly eat a whole portion of people. potatoes. Okay. So how do we make those fresh fruit and vegetables or those less appealing maybe grains or lentils or pulses? They're more appealing and more like hero food on the kids' plate. Yeah. So I think there's a number of different things you can do. So you can make it fun. So for instance, broccoli, one of the ones that I've heard anecdotally from parents is I'm going to pretend to be a dinosaur, I eat my trees. You know, silly things.

Obviously, it depends on the age of your children. If you get up a 14 year old, it's not going to help you. So there might be elements of fun. The other thing is just completely normalising it. So there are other people that around the table, the adults, making sure that they're eating their vegetables and think about the order in which you're eating your foods. Try not to make it so that your vegetables are left on the plate till they're last when they're cold and perhaps a bit less palatable.

But actually, if you have them when they're, they're warmer, they're much tasty, other flavour profiles better. And think about how you can get your child involved. So giving kids agency is always going to be something that's helpful. All children like to feel that they have an identity and some control over what's going on around them. So you pick which foods are on offer, but they can choose from the different options that are there.

Or if your snack was carrots, for example, you could say, okay, well, do you want carrot sticks or wheels? Or what kind of dip would you like to go with these? Do you want some peanut butter with this? Or would you like some mayonnaise or whatever it is? So just try and get your kids involved. Can you help me chop this up? Would you like to lay the table?

Anything that you can do that helps your child feel that they have agency in the process is going to be a helpful thing. Or taking them shopping to the local sales to pick up the food and choose the dips and choose the veg. Yeah. Yeah, take them shopping, get them involved in planning them. meal, any number of things, but helping children to have that agency. And really, it's about not doing very much at all at the dinner table.

When you get tempted to comment on what they're eating or how they're doing, just don't. Yeah. You know, if you've got encouraging supportive things to say, like, oh, I see you tried that, well done. That's brilliant. But more so perhaps talking about what you're doing and you could say, oh, do you know, what, carrots aren't normally my favourite, but I think these ones are really sweet, you know, and commenting on your own experience. But without that undertone of you're eating that in the wrong

order or you should be eating more of this. Because role modelling is interesting, I think, because it's the obvious role modelling, which is eating your dinner in front of them and enjoying it and showing, demonstrating, you know, a rainbow plate and enjoying it. But then there's also And I think I've heard you talk about this before as well. Like when adults are trying food for the first time, and you just sort of hinted it then. Like I don't normally eat this or, oh, I've never had this before. Let's all try it, you've said.

Or I'll try it and then you can try it. And then we can compare notes. Yeah. Because, you know, it's not like we've got it all right, the adults. Absolutely not. No. Either. So we should encourage some of that as well,

just being sort of open and honest about trying new foods when we're encouraging our kids to eat it as well. And being curious around our children, you know, trying things or, oh, I've never thought about adding this seasoning. Should we try doing this? Or maybe we'll try what it's like to have mashed carrots or whatever it is. But I think vocalizing that curiosity around food, interesting food, talking about different senses with foods as well.

So it's not just about eating it. But actually, wow, this is really crunchy, isn't it? you know, talk about the different aspects of it so that we're really removing the focus from whether or not that child eats it. And by removing that focus, it makes it more likely to happen. You know, you take the pressure away, you open up curiosity and interest. And then you've got a child who's well on their way to trying that vegetable. And if they try it and don't like it, well, they just haven't learned to like it yet. Yeah. And so you're talking then about language. And I just want to ask,

obviously we're all, we'll fall in the trap of labelling some foods a treat or bad and good or healthy. Should we avoid, I know we should avoid, I'm not, you know, I'm not new to this parenting game.

I know we avoid saying, like calling things treats because that's not always like the best language and we sort of halo certain foods that aren't always the best ones. But should we actually be saying things like, oh, this is healthy? I think that comes down to individual parent and family circumstances and choices.

We all know that, you know, we've heard it through various different media outlets that things like eating disorders among adolescents are becoming more common, more frequent. So I think we have to be cautious in our approach to creating this virtuous notion of food where everything you consume must be healthy, particularly because actually when people say healthy, what they often mean is low calorie. And actually, pasta is healthy. Bread is healthy. Potato is healthy. You know, protein is healthy. So I think that giving your children information that can give them another reason why they want to eat something is great. But I think labeling foods as healthy and unhealthy isn't very helpful

because ultimately those are both parts of a balanced diet. Okay. And so lastly, Claire, I'm going to finish on. For parents of genuinely selective eaters, and if you're not one, you definitely know one. How do we make this goal for our kids to have more of a fibre-rich diet feel encouraging rather than like another thing that we have to accomplish as parents?

Well, parents of children who are seriously selective eaters know that the most important thing for their child is that first of all, they are fed, that they eat enough. That's your primary aim. So I would say that that needs to be protected. So I mentioned much earlier on in the episode about safe foods. And I think it's really important that selective eaters, you protect those safe foods. Lots of people will talk about things like hiding foods within other. foods? Yeah, so the hidden vegetable sources, that type of thing. And I think

there's a time and a place for that. I think that can be absolutely fine. I cook a lot of one-pot meals. So my kids are just used to the fact that there's lots of stuff in there. But nothing is a secret. If they ask me what's in it, I will tell them. And I don't hide things in a way that can be discovered. Because if you hide foods within Selective Eaters, safe foods, and they find out about it, you can stop that food being a safe food for them anymore. And I've heard examples of this happening before.

So things like, you know, if they have a safe brand going off brand and lying to them and telling them it's the same one, you know, selective eaters often have. It's not going to work. No, they have very sensitive, you know, sense of taste and they will notice. So protect your safe foods, but otherwise keep an open mind. The same broad brush rules apply. give them agency where you can within their ability, depending on their age. And I think really pay attention to the small winds.

If they've touched it, if they've smelt it, what can you do to get your child to explore that food? And it might be about reading about a particular vegetable or high fibre food. It might be about drawing pictures of them. It might be about just feeling them. Just think about your small steps. and just try and keep things around on offer, really widely available. That is brilliant and clear advice. Thank you, Claire. Just talking about the hidden vegetables, I completely screwed it up one time

when I hid a purple carrot in a tomato pasta sauce, which didn't go down well, because it basically turned the whole pasta sauce brown, like into this brown gloop. So there was lots of questions of what the hell is in this? pasta sauce, mommy. So yeah, my hidden vegetable days were over after that. Yeah, after that time. Absolutely. And it's just soul destroying. You prepare an entire meal and then your naughty little secrets found out and suddenly no one's eating anything. I mean, it didn't look very appetising, to be fair. Thank you so much. That was super useful and lots of great tips there. Thank you, Claire. Brilliant. You're welcome. Bish-bash-bosh.

Thanks so much for listening. We hope you've come away with a few simple ideas to help get a little more fibre into your family's day. This special series from the NetMums podcast and Veg Power is supported by Sainspris, which is helping to make good food, joyful, accessible and affordable for everyone every day. Look out for Sainsbury's new full-on fibre labelling and store designed to make it easier to spot choices that can help you and your family get more fibre into your diet. If you've found this episode useful, please share it with your family and friends because we could all do with a few easy food wins. And for more practical food advice and inspiration, follow veg power on social media. And for more real life parenting advice and conversations, head to netmums.com or follow Netmums on socials. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.