The Netmums Podcast - S19 Ep4: ANNA MATHUR: I love my family... So why am I snapping at them?

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

This week on The Netmums Podcast, Louise Burke and JB Gill are joined by psychotherapist and best-selling author Anna Mathur for an honest conversation about the parenting moments we're often too ashamed to admit.Why do we snap at the people we love most? And what does it really say about us?Drawing on both her professional expertise and her own experiences as a mum of three, Anna explains why anger is so often the final symptom of stress, overwhelm and impossible expectations – not bad parenting. Inspired by her new book, How to Stop Snapping at the People You Love, she shares practical ways to recognise the warning signs before we reach breaking point, repair after we've lost our temper, and show ourselves the same compassion we offer everyone else.If you've ever ended the day thinking, 'That wasn't the parent I wanted to be,' this episode is for you.In this episode: Why we snap at the people we love most The hidden link between stress, perfectionism and parental rage How to spot your personal warning signs before you boil over The power of repair after losing your temper Why rest isn't selfish – it's essential How to model healthy emotions and apologies for your children Simple ways to lower the pressure and parent with more self-compassion Anna's book, How to Stop Snapping at the People You Love (As Well As the Ones You Don't): A Compassionate Guide to Rage, Regulation and Repair, is available from 2 July 2026.Read more expert advice at Netmums and join the conversation on social @Netmums.JB and Louise would love to hear your parenting stories, questions and dilemmas. Email [e-mail] and you could be featured in a future episode.The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Netmums, trusted by parents, backed by experts.This episode is sponsored by M&S Thank You Teacher Gift Cards. You can buy gift cards in store or e-gift cards online.Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative.Anna Mathur/Picture credit: Oliver Spencer 

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Shop M&S gift cards in store or online. Welcome to the Netmoms podcast where real parenting conversations happen. I'm Louise Burke, the editor-director of Netmums. And I'm J.B. Gill. dad of two, TV presenter, Farmer, and someone who definitely isn't always proud of some of my own parenting reactions. Really?

I don't know. Jay, I've never seen that side of you. Like, I think you're placed a positive. You're like, you're like the good dad. No, I am. Do you know what? I, it doesn't happen very often. I get angry probably about two or three times a year.

I think for me, it's mostly frustration. It's frustration when you get to like the end of the day and you're tired and you know you've got a mountain of things to do whether that's solo or with my wife and the kids are getting older so they just eke out bedtime more and more and more and they know what to do because they've been doing it for the last five six years I actually had that last night I was like what are you doing at 830 so I'm just writing out my homework babe you've like watch TV for 45 minutes you've been playing cricket in the garden. And now you're doing the homework. That was my moment where I was like,

bubbling over now. So if you have ever found yourself shouting at your children and then instantly feeling guilty, then this podcast could be for you. You're wondering where that reaction came from because that's not who you really want to be. And then there comes the shame that's hard to shake from that moment. I totally feel that many, many a time. So today's guest says you're far from alone. Yes, exactly. And Anna Mather is a psychotherapist, bestselling author, mum of three, whose new book, How to Stop Snapping at the People You Love, which is out on the 2nd of July, explores why so many of us find ourselves reacting in ways that we regret. And I don't know about you, J.B, but the reassuring thing I found from reading this book, and I'm sure many listeners will too,

is that this isn't a conversation about the fact that you're a bad parent. It's about, understanding what's happening and bubbling beneath the surface and recognising those warning signs that might be happening inside before, you know, the snap comes out your mouth. And learning how to sort of, I don't know, beat that energy and make the switch, fix those emotions inside and make sure what's coming out isn't quite as snap-y-snap. Exactly. Well, welcome, Anna. Thank you so much.

for having me. Thank you. No, it's great to be here. It's making me think about my own moments. Many of them. Definitely more than three times a year. I know. He's a saint. He's a saint. He's a saint. He's a person. I think is, is it coming out sideways. You've literally got steam coming out of your ear at other points and it's not coming out of your mouth or you just generally that child. Do you know what it is? I think it is that I don't snap. I go quiet. So the kids probably, I don't know. I probably express it in a different way. Right.

Maybe. I don't know. Still there. Just comes out differently, maybe. Yeah. Well, I know, speaking from my personal situation, I'm not as saintly as J.B. And quite, in fact, before coming on this podcast, I was thinking, Anna, how many times this morning did I snap? I wouldn't say necessarily snap, but I was in disbelief when my kids went out and one of, they had their swimming lesson in the morning, which is always caused us a bit of stress.

of stress in the morning getting all their kick together. And I'm like, why are you back in the house? You should have gone. Oh, I've forgotten my T-shirt or I've forgotten my Knicks or whatever. I'm like, oh my, my, and I'm just like, oh, my God, but yeah, I guess I didn't quite snap, but I definitely felt frustration. Yeah, stress and frustration. So your, the title of your book, can stop snapping are the people you love.

Obviously, it's going to resonate with many, many parents. because it's quite often the people close to us, isn't it? Like you say in your book, it's the people that close to us that sort of get it in the air the most, really, if we're completely honest. But, and I also feel like with this book, because this is your fourth book, right? So this is actually my seventh, which is wild. Well done. I know. It's crazy. I need to dig out those other three that I'm missing there.

But every, I always feel whether it be fiction or like a, self-hout book or a guide book, they all, they often start, don't they from a personal story. There's some, like, personal inspiration there. And you mentioned this at the beginning of your book. And it's like otherwise known to me and Jay, when we were doing our research, was the kitchen story. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Can you, for those that's not even the worst one. I've got a worse one than that. Well, which one should we start with? Do you know what? I think I'm going to start with the worst one.

Start with the worst one because I'm going to start with the worst one, yeah. I want to kick this off. by giving the listeners a snapshot of what sort of inspired you to create this, write this book. Yeah. So historically, I would say that was like a kind and caring person. I was definitely someone for whom that rage went inside, but like what Joe was saying, you know, that kind of like swallowed it down, maybe steam coming out of my ears, but not really being that kind of volatile rage that we might be thinking about. And then I had kids and that just kind of, my first one, you know, he was, he was one of those babies that lulled me into this false sense

of security. That was like a really good natural mum. And it was like he'd read the books. So he came out. He was pretty like, I'm very routine oriented and he kind of slotted in. And I was like, this is great. I'm great at this. Let's crack on and do it again. So I think I was pregnant by the time he was one. And then I had a very different experience. My second, he had silent reflux, just got absolutely no sleep. I was this kind of, furiously independent, like, like furiously independent person. It was like, no, I don't need any help, even to my husband. I was like, no, you go and sleep somewhere else and get some sleep.

And I was like an absolute shell of myself. And it was so, so hard. And I thought that I was the problem. I thought that maybe I was getting it wrong. If I just tried this or I tried that, it would all be okay. So I kind of took that responsibility onto myself. And I remember going to a play group, right? So I had two under two.

and I was so proud of myself because I'd got them out of the house and I was feeling so exhausted and so tearful that I would just put my makeup on and put my big sunnies on and walk off into this sunshine with this double. Yes, I would. Yes. It was part of my mask. And I went to this playgroup that was in this church hall with all these lovely old ladies that would make you cup of tea and it was just really nice. So I rocked up there and my older one that was potty training at the time, I mean just chucking that into the mix there. He had an accident. He had an accident.

And I took them in. I pushed this double buggy into the accessibility toilet downstairs in this church hall. And I lost it. Like, I lost it. I don't know why anyone didn't come, you know, and knock on the door and say, is everything all right? I absolutely lost it at him, at my toddler. Now, bearing in mind, my son is now 11 and he remembers this moment. I was going to remember.

remembers this moment, yeah. So when you say you lost it, what flavor is that? What does that look like? Screamed, screamed at him. I scared him. You know, I scared him. And it felt like this release. It felt like this, in a way, it felt really good because it was all just coming out.

And it was everything that I had been like shoving down and trying to like put a smile on and get it all just kind of erupted out of me. And but very quickly I felt horrifically shameful. Yeah. So you spike in that anger. Yeah. And then immediately afterwards, just felt absolutely horrific. And I was like,

I've damaged my son, like what kind of mother am I? Like, he's only just trying his best. He's learning something. Like, and I just couldn't understand how I could scream at my child in this way. Innocent little toddler who was just doing his best and learning.

And I remember leaving that, leaving that room and just being in bits, kind of just so confused at myself. And so, ashamed thought, this is it. like I don't deserve to be a mom. They deserve so much better.

And it was just this shame. And I think, you know, that was one of the moments that was so pivotal to me. And it took me a while from that point. I think I look back and this is what I do in the book. You know, we get these messiest moments, the moments that we're most ashamed over, probably replay as we're falling asleep. And what I do is I just want to apply like a massive, huge boatload of compassion. onto that. This was years ago now and I've had many moments like that since which I'm more than

happy to talk about including the moment in the kitchen which is a big one than we can talk about that but when I look back at that version of me that was just trying so hard to do her best that was that believed that she had to do it all that believed to accept support and help was somehow you know it meant that I wasn't a good enough strong enough capable enough mother when I think about how absolutely unbelievably exhausted I was. And I just, I feel compassion. I feel compassion for that version of myself now instead of just shame. Yeah.

Well, I'm interested to know afterwards, did you just go home and sort of hide you in the kids away? Or did you call your partner? Or did anyone come up to you afterwards? Yeah, I went into, walked into the group, gathered myself together, walked into the group. And I think I saw a friend and just cried on a shoulder. I just gave me a hug. And sometimes that's what you need, isn't it? You need someone else to show you that kindness that you find really, really hard to show yourself.

Do you know what? I'm really interested to find out why that sort of thing happens. Because I think as of anybody who loses a temper, I often, you know, I feel that shame or that shock or that guilt when I know, especially if I'm in the wrong. You know, I do sometimes with my eldest, who's similar age to yours, actually 11. And he'll turn around and he'll say, you know, I just say I'll snap it in about something. He'll turn around and he'll say, but I didn't actually do it. I didn't do that or whatever. And then I look back at it.

And obviously, in the moment, you just hear the noise or you know, see whatever flying across the room. Or, you know, you just see sort of the result of it. And then you actually sort of have the time to work it out. You think, I actually didn't do what I've just had a massive going in for doing. So why do you think, firstly, you feel that guilt when you, lose your temper, especially when anger obviously is a natural human emotion. And actually anger is a good thing, but obviously not necessarily in using that way. Yeah.

Like it's better to get it out and suppress it. Yeah. Anger shows us that a boundary has been crossed or it shows us that, you know, we're resentful and we need to kind of maybe be a bit more honest about something. It shows us anger often comes up when there's injustice, right? And if you think about all the amazing charities and initiatives, all of those will have begun because someone was cross. You know, so we don't want to eliminate anger at all.

We just want to find ways to express it in a way that is healthier. And I think what is sometimes happening in these moments is that anger is stress and overwhelm. You know, our nervous system has got to a point where we feel threatened in some way. Now, this is a thing that often makes us feel really guilty because, like, my cognitive brain in that moment knows that my son hadn't done anything. wrong and knew that I loved him, right? But when you're stressed, that cognitive part of your brain, it like checks out, you're just a big ball of hormones. And your body does not distinguish between the fact that it is your kid that just chucked something across the room, but maybe didn't. And a bear coming at you. So there's something about that moment that feels like you're

being fought and you need to either fight back or run or respond. And I think that has been so helpful to me in understanding that these moments are signs that my body, like I don't have the capacity to hold onto my cognitive brain. And that's probably because there are lots of things leading up to that moment where I was carrying too much, you know, mentally or emotionally or logistically, or I'm exhausted, or I haven't got the support that I've needed, or that I've not met my needs. Or the bar, I've placed the bar so high that the pressure internally that I've placed on myself is so huge. And I think often we feel guilty because we know we've acted out of alignment with our values. We know that we, like with our cognitive brain on, we know that that wasn't an ideal way to react

and maybe that person didn't quite deserve that or there could have been a better way to go about it. But in that moment our body is like alarm, alarm, fight, fight, flee, make this stop. Regain control. I think it's important. But the examples we've talked about as well is the the times we've maybe lost it and snapped at our children. But actually, of the parent, you know, the partner doesn't, isn't an innocent victim here. And I think sometimes, you know, I've had stories in the past where we've had an argument, like me and my husband have had an argument, say, for example, about what's gone in the recycling bin. We both know it's not about what's gone in the recycling bin, isn't it? It's always something else because like you say, there's that

build up. So what you said there, there's a difference between just having anger, which can be for a positive reason or have a positive mission and positive purpose to it. But then there's overwhelm as well. And I think going back to what you said earlier as well, since becoming a parent, obviously that overwhelm has like just amplified. Yeah, an increased. And that's made you not necessarily deal with certain situations and the anger explode in ways that you wouldn't necessarily have presented. So I think for parents who think like,

oh my God, since I've had a kid, I'm so shouty. I'm so shouty. What would you say to a parent? I'd say look at what you're carrying. Look at where the bar is there. Look at how you're talking to yourself. Because if we are constantly coming down hard on ourselves and criticizing ourselves,

how stressful would it be? if you were just followed around by someone that was constantly like nitpicking at everything that you did. Or sometimes I think what would it do to my child's self-esteem and confidence if I was literally just at them all the time? And if we've got that going on internally, that in itself, it's stressful, right? Yeah. Because there's no grace. There's no space for growth. There's just like constant criticism.

So I'd say, look at your internal dialogue. I'd say look at where that bar is set. Because the gap between what we expect from ourselves and the end. actual capacity that we have in reality to live that out, that's where guilt sits. That's where overwhelm sits. That's where self-criticism sits. So sometimes it's thinking, where is my enough right now? Is it a perfection? Is it keeping all the balls perfectly in the air? What grace do I have for the moments where it all tumbles down? And these things are important. Yeah, I was going to say, how does a busy working, you know, flat out parent find the time to do that?

Because I think that in itself is difficult for, you know, you don't even start. But it's finding the headspace to work that out, isn't it? It's fine. The headspace. And you know what I say? I am someone that when I, I remember being on return to leave, heavily pregnant, right? And I remember my husband getting home from work. And I catapulted off the sofa.

I was so ashamed to be seen to be doing nothing. I just sitting on your back life. I literally just was like, oh, yeah, I'm just making dinner. Yeah, yeah. Just polishing the coffee table. Just pumping the cushions. But that for me was such a sign that I didn't respect my need for rest. I felt guilty when I rested.

I'm often working with moms who feel guilty when they go for a walk on their own. I feel guilty for kind of creating any space themselves. And I think, you know, looking at your attitude towards rest, like how are you resting? Even when you get those little moments, are you embracing them or are you feeling guilty? Are you trying to fill it with time? Because we need rest. And rest is the antidote to overwhelm, which leads to these moments. And I know it's so hard and we have to get so creative, but I rest very loudly in my house now.

Yeah. How do you do that? Do you know what I do? I make swaps, okay, because we all can acknowledge. that we will spend 20 minutes on the sofa scrolling, right? And we, you know, in our heads, we're like, we're kind of doing something, but we know for well that we're not. And it's actually not restful because our nervous systems,

we don't know whether we're going to see a hilarious reel that will make us laugh, which I absolutely love, or a traumatic birth story that triggers our own trauma. So we're braced. Or something where you feel like you're inferior to something. Yeah, I'm rubbish. Look at that person. Yeah. Yeah.

So we're braced when we're on social media. So it's things like I've swapped social. I've got blocks on it all. Like it's not been good for my work. I'm not going to lie. But it's been so good for my relationship with my family in that I block a social media and my email on my phone when the kids are at home. That's a good idea.

I'll sit there with my book. And the different, when they're watching TV, I'll clean up kitchen really quickly. And I'll sit there in my onesie with them reading my book. And I think that's so important is doing something that. is calming, giving yourself permission to slow down and sit down. And good role modelling as well. Yeah, because I don't want them. Rather than sitting there scrolling on your phone.

Yeah, oh yeah, because we're getting to that point where my oldest is like, so when am I going to get a phone? And I need to, you know, I mean, that's a whole other topic. But I want them to see that I'm engaged and I'm available. And that's another thing that can be really stressful is that when we're mentally engaged in something. and our phones are all consuming, right? It's moving.

There's notifications. Like they really grab our attention. Anything else that tries to get our attention in that moment when we're absorbed, it creates a stress response in our body. Right. So I'm more likely to snap at my kids when I'm engrossed in my phone. Agreed. Because five minutes ago, when I wasn't on my phone,

I may have responded to them very differently. So it's actually quite confusing for them. So it's just kind of making little swaps. And I'll say to them like, yeah, I'll do that in a minute. I'm just chilling. You know, I want them to see me. Yeah, relax. Yeah.

Do you think that is something that women struggle with more than men? Because I, you know, just from my own experience. Or mothers more than fathers. Yeah, mothers more than fathers. No, and I say women more than men because not to necessarily draw that sort of gender divide, but for me, I think as a father, I find it easier to sort of down tools than, for instance, is Chloe, my wife. And it's not to say that I'm not involved, because I, you know, we've had a podcast before. We've talked about, you know, who carries a mental load and what

that involves. And I know they've got PE on this day and whatever else. And I take them to school and, you know, do all those things as well. However, I don't hold it as long as Chloe does. That's a fact. Yeah. And not to say that it's equal, it's not equal. She definitely does more than I do. But do you think that makes a difference. Yeah, I do actually. And I mean, even looking back, all the women that I speak to in my clinical work and looking back with my own life, I think often as women, we learn that to love well is to keep giving, is to give and not complain. And that has been a historical narrative, I think, generationally.

But the issue is, is that when we, there's more demand on us than ever for our attention. You know, we're juggling more things than previous generations were. So therefore, we're giving more. But I love a cake metaphor. I love a food metaphor. And I sometimes remember having this moment of being like so burnt out and frazzled and snappy. And I like realizing it hadn't laughed in ages. You know, how sad is that?

And we like, we haven't actually laughed. Like we've created a lot of fun. And you mean like a big belly laugh. Like a loud laugh. Exactly. Where you kind of just completely lose yourself. Let go. And you don't care what time it is.

And you're just like so in the moment that everything else just kind of melts away. And I remember thinking, wait a minute. my mum loved really hard, but she's still, bless her, she doesn't sit down still. So I learned, like many others, that to love well is to give yourself away, almost to a point where you've got nothing left. And that's really loving well. But when we're, when we're demanded more of and we're giving ourselves away more, imagine like you're just giving yourself away like wedges of cake. And then all you've got left is crumbs. And we can't, crumbs aren't joyful.

I'm all crumbs right now. Yeah. You know, it's not a nice, it's not a nice feeling. And you have to, like you were saying earlier, you have to find space then to have a bit of a reset, I think. But then it's hard to find the space. It is, I know. I know. But at least, I think, and not, this doesn't happen to everyone, but I've realized I can recognize that now.

And sometimes people can't recognize it. just keep giving and keep giving, don't they, until they're really burnt out. Whereas I, over time, like my kids are older now, they're 13 and 11. And over time, I've learned to recognise those warning signs. But it does take time. And I know you've talked about it a lot, both on social, in your previous podcast and in your books as well. But perfectionism is evil. It's so easy.

It's good mom. the bar. Yeah, and it's really hard. If you are naturally a people pleaser or yeah, you're striving for perfection. I feel like you're doomed. What would you say to someone who might recognize themselves or just recently as recognized themselves for people pleaser and maybe some things that they can do to help any sort of like tools that they can now start using or building or creating just to ease the load a bit or ease the pressure? To take the load. Because I think so much of our margin and our wedges are given away, aren't they? And like trying to please people, trying to do the right thing, trying to do things

brilliantly. And that is a huge amount to be giving away when perhaps you don't actually need to. And I think we often people please because we are fearful of being disconnected. We're fearful of people being disappointed in us. We're fearful of being abandoned really. And that's just kind of like really primitive. When you want to be part of a group, we want to be cared for, we want to be supported, although we might not be so good at accepting those things.

But we're created for community. So we want our community around us. So we're scared to kind of push them away and be too much or demand too much or not to please people. But ultimately, if we are people pleasing all the time out of fear of abandonment in a sense, we are constantly abandoning ourselves. We're constantly saying to ourselves, your needs don't matter. You know, your rest doesn't matter. Everyone else is more important. And the most life-changing thing, I think for me in addressing this, because I've been a furious people-pleaser, been burnt out so many times, is being okay with disappointing people.

You know, not putting other people's wishes. When I say wishes, it's not needs, it's not kind of commitments, it's people's wishes. You know, I'd really like you to come to this. I'd really like you to do that for me. I'd really like you to be this for me. Not paying other people's wishes above our well-being. Yeah. And that's really hard when we start doing that because we've got this fear that to disappoints,

someone means that we're too much and that relationship will just crumble and it won't be there any more. But healthy relationships can withstand healthy boundaries and we just need to start kind of testing it out and saying no even if you're literally clenching your butt cheeks and like you're coming out in a cold sweat and realizing that actually those people who really care for you and love you, they can respect that. It's a great lesson. Like I'm going to disappoint my kids all the time when I hold boundaries that they don't like.

But I need to withstand that and they need to know that we can. still be in relationship and connection. And it's just trying to like practice that with people that you feel safe with. Start saying no. Start saying actually I can't do that now, but can we do that next week. Or yes, I can do that, but only to this level. Yeah. And just really, yeah, thinking, what do I actually have to give?

Yeah. So that I've still got something left. It does take time though. Like I said, it's taking me time. And also because I've become older as well, I sort of give less of a. But it's what we're saying here, going back to what you'll write about in your book, is the buildup of all of that. It's only just going to screw yourself out.

You think like you've got to please this person, but you're just doing yourself a disservice at the end of the day, aren't you? Yeah. If you want to be loving in how you're responding to people, you cannot give what you don't have to give. I can't give calm because actually when our kids, they're amazing. there's a little bit in neuroscience. Our nervous systems, like we co-regulate with the people around us. You know what it's like when someone really stressing at work walks in?

You feel it in your body, right? And it's the same thing happens in the opposite direction. If someone is really stressed and having a moment or a meltdown, if you are able to keep a hold of yourself and keep yourself calm, they literally borrow your calm. It's incredible. But I cannot do that if I haven't bought that for myself. I cannot give what I do not have.

So I remember in the pandemic actually speaking of my therapist on a walk and saying to her, it's like my parenting relies on me going for a walk. And she was like, yes, Anna, it absolutely does. And I started realizing that, you know, I think I found it really hard to reconcile self-care because I had a difficult relationship with myself. But I think I started off recognizing the importance of caring for myself in what I gave. Now I'm all for the, I'm all for caring of myself because I'm deserving of that. you know, having a bit more calm to give is a byproduct of that, that more for.

But yeah, the things that we do to buy back that margin, to buy back that bit of capacity, that little bit of rest, that bit of honesty with a friend, you know, that bit of lowering the bar, talking more kindly to ourselves. It's all giving us a little bit more ability to hold onto that cognitive part of our brain in those stressful moments that says, how do I actually want to respond right now, rather than just being abhorless stress hormones. Yeah, it's something that definitely stuck out from me or for me from the book, which was the helper needs to be helped.

And to be honest, for me personally, when I look at myself as, I will say the non-defolte period within my setup, that's definitely one of my focuses. Like if Chloe comes to me, like you say, you think you're worrying about, oh, should I go into that thing? I've been asked to do that. I really feel like, do I mean, I'm like, maybe it's fine. You don't have to do it. It's all good. Do you know what I mean? Why do parents struggle, I guess, to ask for that support, but also how important is the partner in sort of administering that support without necessarily having to be asked?

I love that you do that because really what you're doing is all being that external voice so that in time, hopefully she can have a little mini J.B. on her shoulder and when she's confronted to these moments. I love nothing more than when clients say to me, you know, my boss asked me theirs and I had your voice in my heart. head and I'm like, good, because you're internalizing this message that you don't need to be everything to everyone all the time. But I think, yeah, I think it depends what narrative, like how we've grown up. For example, if you've been praised for being good, you know, if you've been praised for being a helper, if you've been praised for being helpful, then maybe we've internalized this idea, this narrative that that is how I'm a good person. You know, I say yes, I help people, but often to

the detriment of the cost, right, which is most likely your own well-being and capacity and your joy. We need capacity and energy to laugh because we've got to feel safe in our bodies to kind of let go of everything for that moment. We need energy and capacity to rationalise anxious thoughts, if that's something we're working on. We need energy and capacity weirdly to actually rest well. Otherwise, we're just like, you know, we're just... You can't rest. You can't. You can't switch off because you're really activated. So every time you say no, you can do it lovingly. Every time you lower the bar and you think, you know what, what is good enough in this

instance? Even if it feels uncomfortable, I'm going to sit with it and learn that this is safe to be good enough. We can start rewiring and lowering the bar a little bit for ourselves and reducing that pressure that finds a snapping because it's too much. Yeah. Because just to be clear, like the snapping isn't. We're not talking about an outburst of emotion. We're talking about a situation where you've, like you said

before, you're a stressful. And that's like long, that's going out throughout the whole day. It's not like, oh, suddenly I've seen that and that's made me cross. It's all been bubbling under the surface all day. And that's why you'll suddenly have a random snap at something that's not even such a big deal like what you said, J.B. earlier, like they might not have even done that thing that's in your head. It's just a snap. And I like, I love how you bring science into it because that helps sort of like provide context to things. So that's great.

And you talked about co-regulation, which we've talked about on the podcast before with Dr. Billy Garvey, Jay. He was great, wasn't it? Yeah, it was a really, especially. And how it builds up himself. But I know co-regulation can be a bit sort of therapy speak. So I just want to go into a conversation more around if that person's bubbling away all day.

Yeah. That's going to happen. Those how I'm going to ask you how to co-regulating how you would recommend co-regulating. What do we do to feel calm in those moments where we're just, we're kind of just done in? And I like the little metaphor of like carrying, you know, a bag for life, like a good, strong, you know, there's good, strong bag for lives you meant to keep using and using and not go to the shops without them and have to get another one. and have to get another one. Just imagine that you start off.

Or you keep forgetting them and you have to keep back new ones. Yeah, exactly. So imagine that you start off the day with a bag for life. And if you've not slept well, if you've been woken up by the kids, it's got a couple of rocks in there already. So it's already a little bit heavy. Maybe you're feeling a bit hormonal. That's another pebble in there.

And then you go throughout the day and maybe you feel a little bit, you know, just flooded with work. There's another few rocks. Someone's let you down. There's another one. You've criticized yourself. There's another one. And then you get to this moment.

And the bag just breaks. And it's just probably one tiny little pebble like that did it. The kid asking for some cris that you do not have. And they're just like, I can't believe you haven't got my crisp. And you're like, oh my gosh. I've literally like trying to be on top of everything. And I'm a failure. And, you know, we come down so hard on ourselves because in those moments, they look insignificant.

They look small. It looked like the mug on the side of the kitchen that your partner's left. But really, it's a straw that breaks the camel's back. So what do we do then in those moments? where we know that we're just, we're ready to go. And I think it's really important to know what your signs are. Like what are your signals, your own personal signals. I was trying to get at those bits, those moments in the day where you can maybe intervene

before you'd end up doing that snap. Yeah. So it might be like some of mine is that everything on my to-do list just feels equally important and I can't break it down. I lose all cognitive ability to think, Anna, that's it going to take. two minutes. That's going to take five minutes. This is doable. All I see is a mountain and I can't and I'm crushed by it. So that's one. Another one is that my mum will message and instead of thinking, oh, that's so nice. Like, yeah, I'm going to chat with her later. It's like, oh my gosh,

what more do people want from me? That's just another thing that I have to do. And it might be kind of tension in your chest. It might be a swirling stomach. It might just be, you know, that people around you feel like they're walking on eggshells and you can just, we hate that, right? We hate that irritability because it kind of corrods those connections. People don't know how you're going to be responding. So what are the signs for you? So I would say, have a little thing. Just ask yourself in the way you do with your kids, you know, when they're a bit grumpy, we think, right, are they hungry, are they tired? Do they need a hug? Do they need a nap and they need a snack. Do that for yourself. Like, do that for yourself, that little inner child in you. I sometimes say, sometimes we have

to imagine we've got another kid. And I know, you know, if you've got multiple kids already, that is just like, I don't, how is that helpful? No, thank you. But it is that vulnerable, needy part of us that is part of being human, that it isn't a failure, that is something we need to tend to ourselves. So I'll be like, right, what do I need to here? Do I need a hug? Do I need to work?

Do I need to, and just start tuning into yourself. Yeah. You know, as someone that matters and thinking, what is it that I need? Is it like almost viewing it, like, try and sort of locate like your circuit break at the moment just like a circuit breaker. Yeah, I know for me, like a circuit breaker sometimes is that I'll put on a song, like a really lively, energetic song that would just take me out of that headspace. Or go for a dog walk around the block quickly just to clear my head,

even if it's just the top of the road and back, but it's just sort of getting out of the house sometimes, which I know it's not always easy when you've got small children to look after. But you know how important and helpful those things are, right? I think all of those things we can kind of think I haven't got time for that, haven't got time, even just kind of sit down for a minute because everything feels too much when actually those are the things that are the circuit breakers. And the movement is great because all of that cortisol and the adrenaline that is starting to build up. Emotions are motion. Like they're kind of built to be metabolized and move through us.

And often what we do is we shame ourselves. I should be feeling more calm. I should try harder. That tends to be what we do when we've joined the kids in the meltdown. is put more pressure on ourselves to do better, and do better tomorrow. And that's just more pressure. So tending to yourself and thinking,

what is helpful right now? What is soothing? What is calming? What helps some of these feelings move through me? And know that that is literally chemically what you're doing. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about after the snap, because of course we all snap.

It happens whether you're two or, you know, 82, whatever. And often, parents, especially, will think, you know, and I've definitely done it myself. I feel like you've ruined it. You know, you've upset everybody. And, you know, everything's going to remember this forever. Like, yeah. Nothing's ever going to change.

It's always going to be that way. Is that actually the case? And I know what you're going to say, but I just want to hear your take on it. You know, sometimes I'm not going to lie. There are definitely moments of my kids remember. You know, they're definitely moments. And I think having compassion for ourselves isn't about letting ourselves off the hook. It's just that if we only shame ourselves, we get stuck and we end up applying more pressure.

So I think if you've snapped, the most important thing that you could do is calm your body before you try and do that repair. So we're going to move towards the repair, but just calm your body because if you're still in that really activated state, you still can't access that cognitive brain? You know, can you just literally extend your exhale? You know, just to tell your body that you're safe. I literally was doing that as you were talking. I was literally just like, I was laughing. I was really getting myself. I know, but sometimes talking about this stuff.

It's like it just brings about all of those. feelings. You know, can you just splash some cold water on your wrist? Can you just frantically message a friend to get some kind words if you're struggling to give them to yourself? Can you literally just stick your head out the window and remind yourself that there is a world out there and this is just a part of the story and a part of a day? Like, what can you do just to kind of steady and soothe yourself? And then I would say to, I do a few things. I say, sorry. You know, I take responsibility in it. It's so tempting to be like,

but I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I shouted at you. But you were, you know, winding your sister up and butt. So I try not say the but because I know that on another day, if I had different capacity, I might have responded differently. So that really, that response is on me. And do you do that in the moment or do you sort of like let a bit of time pass and then, I don't know, just say maybe do it before bed or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it depends.

I think the most important thing is that you can calm your body and feel safe before you do that repair. So I always think the sooner the better, especially the younger the kids. are, you know, the more time passes, it can be harder to kind of bring these things up again. But I think as soon as possible, calm your body down, make sure that you feel safe and regulated, that your hearts, you know, it's slowed down a little bit, that you have got access to that cognitive part of your brain again that goes offline. So if you're still stewing on it and it's like you're going around in circles with it and you're still tense, like that's probably not the best moment. So I say, sorry, I'm really sorry, and I name it, I'm really sorry for shouting at you.

and then I will say what was too much for me. So this isn't about them. I will say I've been really stressed with work. I'm feeling really hormonal. I've taught my kids what that means and that's really useful. It's good. I've been feeling really hormonal or, you know, I'm feeling really sad about this, you know,

and you didn't deserve that. And then I say what I'm going to do about it. Because I think this is amazing for modelling. So I'll say, really sorry I shouted at you. I'm really sorry. I'm sad that I responded in that way. I'm feeling really hormonal. And tonight I'm going to go, I'm going to have a hug with Daddy and I'm going to go to bed early.

Or I'm going to call auntie so and so. Or tomorrow I'm going to say that actually I'm going to take a bit of work off my plates. It's all just too much. And so it's taking responsibility and kind of naming the next step. Because this gives them language as well for them. And how many of us, if we're really honest, had parents that did that. Yeah, well, that's what I was going to come to actually. because I think my, obviously, my mum would snap at us.

I was one of four kids and she looked after us all. And she definitely snapped. But I never always understood why, what was going on in her head when she was snapping. And now I've got a better idea as a parent of three kids. But like, you know, there would have been other personal stuff as well. But I think that previous generation was, they never really were honest about like problems. almost the negatives basically, where they. And I know that's something that we try to do in our house.

Like, I think, you know, if I've made a mistake or I'm upset about something, I don't hide that from them because I want them to know that if they've made a mistake or if they're upset about something, then they don't need to hide it either. But do you think children learn from watching parents own their mistakes? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Is that the right thing to be doing? Yes, absolutely. Because if we don't know, you know, you kind of have those friends or the family member,

they kind of feel like they're crossed with you and you don't know why. So you just, if they don't name it, you assume it's your fault. Yeah. You know, we just assume we fill in the gaps. We write our own stories. So to have it kind of laid out and explained is such a powerful thing to do. It really is. It's not sort of, because I worry.

sometimes that we're putting too much, like dumping like too much emotion on our young kids, like more than they can understand sometimes. Yeah, I think keeping it really simple as key. Yeah. And, you know, you're not giving them emotional responsibility. You're not looking for them to make you feel better. You're not looking for them to be any part of the answer or give you a lot more compassion. You know, I remember saying sorry to my son.

And he was like, it's okay, mummy. And I was like, it's not, actually. Yeah, and I'm going to work on that. Yeah. But I think then, you know, if there is that kind of emotional hangover, and sometimes we can really want our kids to reassure us that it's okay, actually take that to a friend, take that to your partner and have that conversation. Agreed.

Have that conversation with them. Yeah, because sometimes, like one of my daughters will say, oh, mommy, let me give you a hug. And I go, well, that's very sweet, sweetheart. But, like, I need to sort this out or I not to. Yeah. So I'm not depending. So, yeah, what you're saying is don't depend on them for the emotional support. when you're in these moments.

How important is it for you and your partner to be aligned on things like that? Because I often find that even if I react in a certain way or if my wife reacts in a certain way, support, I'm trying to find a writer to word is because even if you feel that the reaction's in the wrong, from either side, almost in front of the children, is it right? right or wrong, maybe to almost present a united front? Or, like, how would you sort of, I guess, address something like that? Yeah, I think if my husband or I notice that someone has been particularly snappy, I'll probably say to him, or he'll say to me, outside of a eachot, are you all right? Like, you're not being, are you stressed? Are you want to go for a run?

Like, what is it that you need? Because you're obviously, like, you don't have capacity at the minute for this. And I understand that. And I know, I 100% know what knows what that feels like so I think when it comes to yeah instead of just the like I remember like in early years of parenting we'd almost just kind of give each other these evils or then try and like leap in and change change what was going on and then the other person feels undermined and then it just kind of flares up even more so so I think it's instead of going on the attack it's yeah saying are you all right and no no noticing that irritability or that snappiness that is a symptom of something, you know, and how might we work together to get you some capacity back?

Yeah. And lastly, just before we go on to a quick fire round, I just want to quickly throw in a question around identity, because I know that forms a lot of your work as well. And in the past, you've talked about how becoming a parent, a slight concern has been that you've lost some softness to yourself. So I'd like you to describe that so people can relate to that. But also, have you wanted to now becoming a parent and noticing the changes in yourself? Have you wanted to actually go, you know what, I want to go back to how I was before?

Or are you happy with who you have become now? Now you're a parent. Yes, I definitely found that my whole identity was built on pleasing others and being nice and helpful. And I think parenting just really challenged that. And it was just not sustainable to keep giving so much away. And I found that really hard. And I think that's, you know, what that losing that softness was, it was resentfulness.

I was resentful. I was, people were constantly hurting me. And they didn't even realize because I was just constantly saying, yes, yes, I'll do that. Or yes, I'll express that opinion even if it doesn't align with me. Yes, I'll bitch about that person, even if it doesn't align with me. and I started resenting everyone around me. I started just breaking under the weight of all of the expectation for how I'd kind of built myself to be to people,

but also the expectation of myself. So that's where that gentleness went. I just became stressed. Do I want to go back? Absolutely not. I think there's something about parenting that gets this massive spotlight and just shines it on all of the bits of you

that aren't sustainable, all the bits of you that haven't taken up space. And I would never want to go back. But it's been brutal but beautiful. And I'm a more confident, loving person, not just to others, but I really care about myself and I really value myself. And I don't know how I would have come to that, had I not been kind of walked through the fire of burnout and depletion

and, yeah, being met with a version of myself that was actually the cost of living in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so powerful. Love it. All right, Anna, are you ready for your quick fire round? Yes. I am. Okay. Off to go. Here we go. Okay. Who are you most likely to snap at?

My middle child. Because we're very similar. Okay, fair enough. What's your biggest parenting trigger? What gets you to that? Noise, certain noises, unnecessary noise. Yeah. Okay. All right. What do you do when you feel yourself reaching boiling point? I try and step outside, just out the door.

One thing motherhood taught you that therapy never could, if anything? That I deserve rest. Yeah. And what's your definition of good parents? Being good enough, whatever that looks like. Yeah, excellent. And we're still going. We are still going.

You want to go really quickly. They were probably the quickest quick fire. I could have done a whole podcast in each of those questions, by the way. So if we have one of the series, that's the series. I need that. I thought it was very restrained. I was proud of myself. Well, for someone who's listening to this podcast today,

who might be feeling overwhelmed and it would be your sort of final words, final words of advice for them. Yeah, I think sometimes it's looking. How much of that overwhelm is circumstantial? You know, it might be that you're caring for children whilst caring for parents. It might be a really busy period at work. It might be the end of the school year when there are a million extra emails and a top of everything else. There is some stuff that is circumstantial.

But have a look at what is that additional pressure that is internal that you can address. Where can you make the path smooth for yourself? What corner can you cut that you're trying to do brilliantly? Get a ready-made meal like let the kids just run wild in the garden and stick the pizza on the floor. Like how can you at this point just make the road a little bit, smoother, take some internal pressure off, cut some corners, and just go a little bit easy on yourself. You can pick up pace when that season moves on. But for now, how can you go gently? Because you are doing a brilliant job anyway. Yes, indeed. So much better than you think.

Yeah. Yeah. And not every, I often think now as the kids have got older, I think in those early days, you think they're going to remember everything and you've got to do everything right because they're They're going to remember everything. You've got to set them up brilliantly. And it's like, you know, I said to one of my kids the other night, oh, do you remember when we went on this holiday? No. And I'm like, that was a brilliant holiday.

It's so true. It's so. But then sometimes there's pressure. We went on the most chaotic, awful walk the other day. And like, we lost a ball. And like, everyone cried at one point. And I got, we got back in the car and I was like, well, that was fun. Wasn't it sarcastic?

I was being very sarcastic. They were like, yeah. Yeah, it was great. But they experienced it. Completely differently. They do. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Because what matters to us in those sort of, through that lens of perfection is definitely not what they're seeing. Yeah, exactly. So they're going more gently on us than we are. So we might as well just take some pressure off. Yes. Go gently ourselves.

Anna, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. I've loved it. Thank you. Thank you, Anna. Your book is called How to Stop Snapping at the People You Love and it's available now. Yes, indeed. And if today's conversation has resonated with you, then just remember,

but using your temper, doesn't make you a bad parent, and understanding what's underneath it might just help make life a little bit easier. So thank you very much for listening to the Netlams podcast, and we'll see you next time. Yay, see you next time.