The Netmums Podcast - S19 Ep5: LAUREN COWELL AND ELLEN ROOME: The online safety conversation every parent needs to hear

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

This week on The Netmums Podcast, Louise Burke and JB Gill tackle one of the biggest parenting challenges of our time: keeping children safe online.With the UK moving towards restricting social media access for under-16s, this conversation couldn't be more timely.Joining the podcast are Lauren Cowell, campaigner for the Raise the Age movement, entrepreneur and fiancee to Simon Cowell, and Ellen Roome, who has dedicated herself to improving online safety following the devastating loss of her 14-year-old son, Jools.Together, they share powerful insights into the realities of parenting in the digital age, why parental controls alone aren't enough, and the practical steps every family can take to better protect their children online.From delaying smartphones and keeping devices out of bedrooms to building open conversations and recognising the hidden risks of social media, this episode offers honest advice every parent needs to hear.In this episode: Why many parents feel they're fighting a losing battle online The reality of navigating parental controls Practical ways to keep children safer online How to build trust so children come to you when something goes wrong The online risks every parent should understand, from algorithms to sextortion Why campaigners believe stronger protections for children are urgently needed * This episode touches on child loss and online harm. Please listen in a way that feels right for you.Read more expert advice at Netmums and join the conversation on social @Netmums.JB and Louise would love to hear your parenting stories, questions and dilemmas. Email [e-mail] and you could feature in a future episode.The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Netmums, trusted by parents, backed by experts.Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative.

Hello and welcome to the Netmums podcast where real parenting conversations happen. I'm Louise Burke, editor-director at Netmops. And I'm J.B. Gill, your dad host. Now, today we're discussing an issue that has become one of the biggest parenting conversations of our time, and that is keeping children safe online. And it's a conversation that feels especially timely right now. Since recording this episode, Keir Starrma, has announced plans to ban social media access for under 16s in the UK. He'd said in an announcement, it will make our children safer, it will make our children happier,

it will give them more time, more security, more freedom to grow up. Which is exactly what we want. And it's certainly got parents talking on the NetMum's social. Now, for years, families have been navigating questions around smartphones, social media, online content, how much freedom is right and at what age that freedom should come. And while technology does bring huge benefits with it, it also does not. leave, many parents wondering how best to keep their children safe online. You know, what role should the family play in that?

How much of the responsibility sits with schools, for instance, because they spent a lot of time at school. Of course, the government and technology companies as well, how much responsibility did they take? And are we doing enough, ultimately, to protect our children? Ah, so many questions, J.B. But they are exactly the kinds of questions we're exploring today. We're joined by two remarkable women who have become.

powerful voices in this space. Lauren Cowell is a mom of two and a passionate campaigner calling for stronger protections for children online and Ellen Room has channeled the devastating loss of her son into tireless work to raise awareness and campaign for change so that other families might be spared similar heartbreak. Before we begin, we'd just like to let listeners know that this episode includes discussion of child loss and online harm. So please listen in whatever way feels right for you. Lauren and Ellen, thank you so much both for joining us. Welcome, both of you. Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be an incredibly powerful podcast listen today.

So make sure you grab yourself a cup of tea or coffee or whatever you like and definitely listen to this one from start to finish. And then again, once you've finished. Yeah, absolutely. So welcome, ladies, Lauren and Ellen, lovely to have you on the pod. Let's start first with some chat around parenting. and family set up and the sort of styles which we parent our children. Right, Lauren, first with you, because you're a mum of two boys,

and there's quite an age gap with your two boys. That's right. You've got 12-year-old, Eric. And is it 20, 21-year-old Adam as well? Yes. So what does parenting look like in your house? I'm really interested in this. Parenting in my house is, well, so because there's a big age gap between the two boys,

between my two boys. Obviously, Adam is, he's away at university. So he goes to University of Miami. He's there. And Eric is home. He just started secondary school this past September. Our house is very busy. It's like a normal house. Well, normal. loosely used that word. But our house is like, you know, everyone else's house. There's lots going on. Simon and I are both really busy. There's people coming in and out. We've got four dogs. soon to be five dogs. We have another one being mixed very soon. So that's exciting. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, there's always a lot going on. And there's always a lot of people and a lot of kids around. But it's, it's never boring. That's for sure. Yeah. Well, listen, I know,

Lauren, you talked about sort of that dynamic between having that, you know, big age gap and, you know, the fact that the boys get unincredibly well together. What, what is it like, well, I say parenting. Has it been slightly different? Have you taken a different approach with Eric? Obviously, being slightly younger and I'm sure some of the things you may well have learned from bringing Adam up, or is it very much a sort of, I suppose, a level playing field with you and Simon and obviously Eric's upbringing. Yeah, because there's two, you brought them up in two very different times. Yeah, I mean, with regards to the social media aspect of everything, because I think, you know, otherwise it's such a broad scope of, you know, of different things.

But I think that with two children with an age year, with an eight year age gap, there's a lot of differences. But with social media in particular, I think that things have changed so much in the last, certainly in the last few years, Adam, my older son, he didn't have social media until he turned 18. And it wasn't even like a decision that at that time we were really even thinking about. to be honest, it just wasn't something that he was interested in. I, myself, wasn't on social media until this past year, till December. Wow. So it wasn't really something that I was very interested in either. I mean, I didn't really have any reason to be on social media. And I didn't have any desire to. So for us at that time, it wasn't really something that we spoke about. But now it has really entered the conversation and it's entered the landscape more and more. With Eric, we recently got him a phone. This was, again, very recently, he was asking for a phone. Most of his friends have. phones or have phones. And it was something that Simon and I really struggled with, and we were both very adamant that we didn't want him to have a phone. But in this whole process, ultimately we decided

to give him a phone, but he doesn't have social media. He's not on any of the platforms. So it was really a decision that we didn't take lightly. But ultimately, we decided that it was a way for him to communicate with his friends. And we kind of took it as, well, this is sort of a halfway house because we're really not comfortable with him being on these social media platforms and for all the reasons that we're going to, I'm sure, be discussing today. But where we kind of landed was, we will let you have a phone, which is basically a brick phone because he can WhatsApp and he can text and that's it. But in terms of everything else, yeah, that's kind of where we ended up. But I would say, yeah, I mean, the age gap between them, I'm very low.

lucky because they do have a great relationship. And that was something that was always really important for me to establish. And actually, I didn't have to do very much because they just naturally, they gravitated towards each other and they have an incredible bond. And like I said, I'm so lucky about that because, you know, with two different fathers and growing up in two different places for a lot of the time, that could have been, you know, really difficult. But luckily, they have really formed this incredible bond. And they are best for you. friends and it's really sweet the way Eric looks up to Adam and Adam, you know, the way he is with Eric, it's just, he's just, it's just an amazing relationship that they have. So it's lovely.

You've spoken about how important it is to build strong bonds between you and your sons as well. You've talked about then their bond, which is special and great, but your bond as a parent. What matters to you most as a parent? I think that putting those boundaries in place, in our home, which is trying to make sure that we, you know, we really carve out time together. That's very important to me, just to have family time to switch off because, like I said, Simon and I are both so busy in our own respective, you know, jobs or the things that we're interested in. So coming together as a family and getting that time to switch off and just be together uninterrupted, that's the thing I would say that we are working on the most.

And it's not easy. It really isn't. No. I mean, there's so many distractions aren't there in modern life. And yes, there's phones and there's gaming and there's social media. But there's, you know, life is just generally busy. So I totally agree with you that finding those times to be together. And I guess that strengthens your relationship with Eric and can create sort of better communication channels as well, Fubo. Yeah. And the other thing, I think, you just mentioned communication, I think that's another one that really, I think as a parent, is so important to be able to talk to your children about anything, really, but to let them know that no matter what it is that they're dealing with or struggling with, I mean, in an ideal

world, you want your kids to tell you everything. But I think what I always try to say to Eric and Adam is, you know, obviously I'm always here for both of them and anything that they ever want to talk about or, you know, anything that's bothering them or they're worried about. But I said, look, it might not be me that you want to talk to. And that's okay. Like I think that as long as both of my kids really know that whether it's me, whether it's Simon, whether it's one of my parents, you know, a grandparent, a friend, a cousin, a carrot, you know, like a nanny or, you know, anyone who works in our home because we, we do have, you know, people that work with us who are amazing and, you know, we all, we're kind of like a big family, all of us. But I just always want to know that no matter who it is, because depending on the subject matter,

You know, they might feel comfortable talking to one person versus the other. Always knowing that there's always someone to talk to and you never need to keep things bottled up. Because I think that in, you know, with any of us, if we feel like there's not, you know, we don't have an outlet and we don't have somebody that we can trust and talk to, then that can become quite overwhelming and scary. So that's something that I really try to emphasize with both my kids is just always find that person that you can talk to and know that there's always a way to deal with things. Yeah. And not fearing or worrying that they could be in trouble or that they've done something wrong. And, you know, these are, as a parent, this is just some of the stuff that I think about. And I just always try to drill it into them that no matter what, there's nothing you could tell me that would, you know, that would make me be angry with you or that, you know, you'd be in trouble for. You can always tell me anything. And I hope that they know that because that's really important. Yeah. I had something similar actually with my child. She was 10 at the time and she was on roadblocks. and she came up to me and she was red in the face all flustered. And some sort of character had come up and approached her to gift her things. And we just shut it down.

But we actually couldn't trace anything. So you're talking about fear. And as you were saying that, I remembered that story. And it made me think about how scared not only she was, but how scared I was. And you said before as well that you've not really been on social media. until more recently, which when people say that, I always feel surprised because it feels like the whole world is on social media. But we've talked about the fear and we've talked about feeling scared for your child and also scared about them not coming to you if something was wrong.

But do you feel like with a lot of these things, sometimes as parents are set up to fail in managing this? Because I don't know about you, there are so many toggles left, right and centre on parent controls. And, you know, again, busy households, time poor, you know, limited bandwidth. Do you feel like we're supported enough to manage this? Well, Ellen and I were just talking about this earlier, actually, which is the short answer is, no, I don't think we're supported enough. And yes, I sometimes do think we are being set up to fail because, I mean, I consider myself to be pretty with it and like on top of, I mean, let's, let's, let's. Let's. Let's. Let's. Let's take Adam out of the equation just for a moment because he's 20. But I mean, Eric, really, who's 12, he's sort of in the thick of it right now. He's in the trenches and I'm in the trenches of this sort of this whole battle. You know, there's something that is sitting right in front of them. And in my case, he doesn't have social media. So I'm just using a broader term here. But I think it applies to everyone here that's dealing with this. You've got this thing that's sitting in front of them in the palm of their hands. And it is literally like a universe with so many moving parts.

And, you know, somebody used an analogy of, you know, if you were to put your kid in the center of time square, right, for just to go and play. Like, would you just drop your kid off in the middle of time square or whatever the equivalent is here? No, you wouldn't do that because you don't know who's roaming around there. You don't know who's going to approach them or who's going to want to talk to them or who's going to, you know, be trying to feed them information or show them content that, you know, isn't appropriate. So that's kind of the analogy that I think about it. it just blows my mind because you've got these things and these kids are being handed them. And yeah, in terms of what Ellen and I were talking about earlier, with all the parental controls and this, that, and the other, I haven't got a clue how to navigate and how to use all those

things. I mean, it's kind of embarrassing to say that because I should. And I'm an advocate and I'm kind of an activist now and talking about this on a daily basis. But I actually don't know the first thing about parental controls or how to do them because more than anything else, Kids can get around them. Like, they know how to shut them off and they not find the loophole. So it is an absolute minefield. And it is, it's exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. And then you've got parents who are, you know, having full-time jobs, who are having to cook dinner, who are having to do school runs. So there's all the things that we as parents are having to deal with in our day-to-day lives. And then wanting to be good parents, wanting to look after our children, keep them safe,

just the basics. And we're up against something so powerful. and such a force that, no, it's not a sea. It's not a fair fight. Did I answer that? I don't know. That question is a loading. It was a bit loaded. But I think, like, your analogy is good.

I think there was something we interviewed Jonathan Haidt, who does a lot of campaigning around. Yes. Amazing. Safe a smartphone use and screens. And he can be a little Marmite. I won't lie with our community. But something he did say, which really always rings in my ear,

is that we always. you know, look out for our kids when they go to the playground or on the school run. And we're constantly thinking about their safety when they head out the door. Offline. In the real world. But online, we've neglected actually keeping them safe. And I don't mean that to sort of disparents or judge parents. We've all done it some way or another. But there is an opportunity here to create some change.

And on that note of change, I'm going to talk about the work. You've been doing first, Lauren, and then we'll go into your work, Ellen, which is absolutely amazing. But firstly, Lauren, you've been a leading voice in supporting the campaign, Raise the Age. And I know you've taken this conversation into government in conversations and consultations about the social media ban for under 16s as well. But what was the moment for you where you're like, this isn't just me as a parent looking after. Eric, this is me wanting to drive change to create louder voices around this. I know you've had people like Robbie Williams, Leona Lewis, Cheryl, all lending their voice to highlight the campaign as well.

But what was your turning point to get involved? Well, quite frankly, meeting the woman and the incredible woman sitting right next to me. So, yeah, like I said, this. This is something that I'm dealing with as a parent in my own home. And in doing that, you know, just talking to other parents, other mothers at Eric's school, friends of mine, it's just the universal. I think it is the issue of this generation without a question, you know. And I think there are defining moments in any kind of period or any decade. And, you know, there's lots of examples I could give.

But for the purpose of this podcast, this is the issue of the generation. that is in front of us. And, you know, it became so clear to me and so obvious, like, what is going on here and how big this is and how unfair and how, you know, how unfair this fight is. And I just knew that whatever platform I have, which, I mean, it isn't a lot, but whatever it is, like I said, I never was on Instagram and I never used social media before. And ironically, because of all this, kind of the way you have to get your messaging across. So it is ironic. But nevertheless, I wanted to use my platform to inform people, to educate people, to, you know, raise the alarm bells and say, hey, you guys, like we've all been sleepwalking through this. You know, we've been going through and being kind of pushed into this direction with our children. And we've now, we're seeing, it's like with big tobacco, we're seeing the effects now of all of this. And, you know, let's let's just stop. Let's take a break, take a pause, and let's do something and reclaim our power back. And in all this, I met Ellen. And, you know, I have to just take a moment because, like, we're going to hear from Ellen in a sec.

But Ellen is without question, if one of the most, if not the most amazing person I've ever met in my life. You know, I've never seen anything like this, she's a force of nature, you know. And when I met her and I heard about her story and about her son Jules and what happened to him and how she's had to fight to get answers and how. she's used, again, you know, her platform through this tragedy that she's endured and her family and her, you know, and Jules's dad, what they've had, what she's had to use, what she's had to do to fight to get answers. And then she's turned something so horrific and so tragic into, again, taking that platform and using it for good and to help other parents because, and I don't want to take away from what Ellen's going to say, but she, you know, talks about this all the time that she doesn't

want any other family to have to go through what she's been through. So when I met Ellen, it really was a tipping point for me. She's completely changed my life. Like, we've become very, very close friends. She's like a sister to me. I genuinely, like, I think people come into your life for a reason. And, yeah, I'm so committed to this. And I just said to Ellen, we're stuck together now. Whatever we do, we're going to do it together. And we're going to make a difference because this can't continue. No. Our kids are too important.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you guys have been to the House of Lords. And, you know, as you've mentioned, Ellen, I think it's a great time to bring you in. Thank you very much, firstly, obviously, for being here. Yeah.

Because your story is incredibly powerful. I don't think there's anybody who would hear it and not be able to resonate with it. Could you just tell us a bit about how the two of you met and also a little bit about your son, Jules? Yeah. So we met. this person called Lauren Cow messaged me on Instagram

and said I've read your story and can I help? That's really nice. Thanks for so much but no I don't need any help. She blamed me. Did you imagine? I did. I was just like, what am I asking for? I don't know what help I need. But that's really kind of thanks very much.

And then I was actually talking to Jules's dad and he went, oh, that's Lauren Cow. Maybe you should reach out to her. And I was like, same. I don't even know. I would be interesting to go back and say, see what my first message was like, hi, you did reach out. And actually, you know, I've got this documentary being made about me or whatever. And anyway, we met up and we just hit it off straight

away. So we just get on really well. We laugh at the similar sort of thing. We're both driven. Lauren's incredibly driven and determined and, you know, when we say, we're going to do something, I'm going to do it. And then we go, how are we going to do that? I don't know yet. We'll figure like that out. Would you mind telling us a bit about Jules and what happened with Jules, especially for those listeners listening to this, who might not fully be aware of the story. And what happened? So my son, Jules, was the most amazing 14-year-old boy.

I'm not with his dad, but we were still best of friends. We switched up when Jules was three. We did lots together. People who have seen pictures all three of us online together. We did birthdays together. We went bowling together. And we chose to have a child together. So he came first, even though we worked together.

and he was normal. There was nothing in my world that gave any suspicion that when I came home on the 13th of April 22, I would find him not breathing in his bedroom. And I mean, it's horrific. A loser child is every parent's worst nightmare. And then when it actually happens, it's way worse than anything you could ever possibly imagine.

And we assumed that the police would investigate, we assumed we'd go to the inquest, not knowing what an inquest was or how that worked, and that they would tell us what happened to our son. The inquest lasted 23 minutes, which we can't be certain Jules was in a suicidal mood, so it's a narrative of how he ended his life. I know how he ended his life. I found him. I don't understand why.

There was no sign of bullying. There was no sign of any mental health offline. And at the time, I wasn't strong enough. I mean, I've always been a bit of a fighter, but for that period in my life, I was barely breathing. I was crawling up upstairs on my hands of knees. I just couldn't function. And so when the police said, we don't really know what happened, we went, okay.

And then you were left to go back to life. And you were like, what the hell did it happen to my life and my child? And trying to then go back to work and things like that, it's so impossibly hard. But then I, there was a defining moment actually. I was running my own company and two of my staff, I was trying to get back into work and two of my staff were complaining about the coffee. And they didn't like the coffee. I remember looking at them thinking, I don't give a damn about your coffee.

And at that point, I said I have to get out. So I sold the business. My one priority was that all of my staff kept their job. And I thought, right, once they've got another job, I'm out of this. I need to investigate. And so the 1st of March, 2024 was the day I sold the company. It was the day I started looking for answers for jobs. And I approached the social media companies and said there was nothing offline.

happened online and they said as a parent you have no legal right to see what your children look at online which that's outrageous that's crazy i could see his medical records i got to say you see everything apart from apart from that which makes absolutely no sense and i think that you know louise i'm sure you're going to agree you know that's the part that really does resonate the deepest you know the fact that there weren't any signs and obviously the things that you would expect to be able to try and you know certain for any sort of aunts or any sort of signs you weren't actually able to access. What would you say you want other parents to really understand from your experience?

I guess from my experience, I didn't know the harms of social media. We didn't talk about social media in the way that we do now four or five years ago. It wasn't being spoken out on a daily basis, which it is now. And I learned things I was aware of. You know, Snapchat. If children have their live location on, you've got predators know exactly where your child is within a foot. and yet they've all got it on because that's how they all find each other.

But actually if you think about it, you wouldn't let your child out with telling any predator in the street that this is where your child is. You know, I didn't know some gaming things where they're interacting with yours. I thought he was laughing with his friends that strangers can intercept that

and talk to them pretending to be a teenager. Yeah. The harms of you're there, I would say to a parent to educate yourself. I guess I was naive four or five years ago and since George's death, could tell you so many horrible stories. I think as a parent, look at the harms and work out whether you want your child and have access.

Just out of interest, Ellen, just to get the full picture, when did you give Jules his phone when you were, you know, like you say, you didn't know, you were unaware of so many of the harms. So there was a group of us. We all met when we were pregnant actually through our NCT group. And so all our kids were the same age. And we said, I'm still friends with them now, yeah, 19 years later. And we all said, well, what age do we do this at? Yeah. And so we all decided at secondary school, when they went to secondary school, that's when they got the phone.

That was the done thing. And so we did that. Lockdown happened and Jules as an only child. So I let him use it more. And I guess I thought, I remember actually, I remember Starr said to me, you know, TikTok, all doing these silly dancers, we should do one as a company. I was like, what is TikTok? And I don't say, no, we're not doing that as a company.

but I assumed that's all it was, stupid dancers. He did. Yeah, he did. So I would walk in towards his bedroom. He'd be laughing. He'd be gaming. He'd be on something called house party at the time where you could have a whole new people on FaceTime each other.

And I didn't think it was a problem. And I know he did challenges is that one of us standing upside down, putting a t-shirt on while you're standing doing a handstand. That was one of the challenges, eating a two-spoon of cinnamon. We did some of these challenges. And, I mean, the t-shirt, I'd still think it's harmless. The cinnamon one, apparently, you can choke on the cinnamon. Yeah, as you were saying that, I was like, yeah.

But at the time, we just thought it's funny. And Jules said, try this. And we were laughing at it. And I didn't know that you could actually inhale the cinnamon. So I know Jules did these challenges. And it was after Jules died when an lovely boy, Archie Batserfeyer had his accident six days before Jules. And it was all over the news about a blackout challenge. And I said, do you think it could be that?

And the police officer said to me, it could be, but we can't prove it. and so I've always wondered what did he see, what was he fed, and I still hope about that data. I'm re-applied to, well, I've having to apply to High Court to redo his inquest, so I'm waiting a date. But I'm determined if that data is still there, I'm going to try for answers. Yeah, because I read that you applied for that data from TikTok and they said they didn't have it. Is that correct? No, that's not quite true. So they said they might have deleted it.

Now, if some social media company had nothing to hide, wouldn't you think they'd go, here you go, police, or here you go, parent, I hope you get the answers. Maybe I can't see it because of the day's protection of other children, but they could have that over to the police and say, I hope you get the answers, here's everything we've got, and try for answers. The fact that they said, no, without a court order, I'm not giving you any messages of his or any browsing data, and we might have deleted it. I'm sure a technology company will know whether they've deleted it, not just a might have deleted it.

So I am the first British parent, along with four others, to sue TikTok in the States as well. And you have created a law, which is now part of the Crime and Policing Act, isn't it? Yeah. Where parents have access to data. No, the parents don't still. Oh. So, well, they sort of do. The reason, yeah, I wanted it to go to the parents.

And actually, it was somebody that said to me, what is the parents the perpetrator? And you know, it hadn't even crossed my mind that the parents could be the ones perpetrator. So trying to hide something up. Right. And it was put that it should go to the coroner, which now the law has changed because I never wanted another parent in my position. Now when a child dies, within five days, the social media data has to be preserved, which is part of the crime and policing bill. So that data goes, it comes through offcom, but to the coroner. Now, as a parent, as a person of interest, then technically I could potentially see that through the coroner. so long as the coroner's happy that the parent isn't a perpetrator. So there is potentially a way that parent could see it, but it doesn't automatically go to the parent. And I'm fine with that so long as something is you're doing that. Well, ultimately what you want is for people to,

not people, but the right people, to be able to access that information, which is why that data is so crucial. Yeah, because like you said, I'm stupidly, I just didn't think about the parent being a perpetrator. No. I haven't thought that the parent is a lot to think. There's a lot to think about. Do you think most parents, I'm asking this question, again, feel slightly loaded, but do you, I'm going to ask you, do you think most parents truly understand

what their children might be exposed to? No, definitely no. And you can't. So if you look at the skeptics here that say, well, the parents should be parenting more. You should look at what your children's doing. You can't possibly look over your child's phone, you know, say they are. 13 and they're on Instagram or whatever and it's feeding them data. How are you supposed to watch every single bit that they pop as they flick through it when they're not necessarily searching to it? They're being fed it. It's impossible.

So parents cannot physically possibly do it. Yeah, but also it doesn't always happen at 12 or 13 or 14. It can happen at 16 or 17 or even 18. And like you said, Lauren, you know, if your child doesn't get a phone at 12 or 13, then it doesn't happen at that age. You know, it can happen a bit later or happen in that first instance where they, where they have that access and they don't necessarily know how to, to handle it. How do you think other parents can get that balance, maybe not right, but have a better balance with understanding the dangers, understanding the things that, of course, are potentially harmful, but also be able to create, I guess, a bit of a channel for those children to learn. because ultimately that's what we all have to do really and truly.

But I think for them it's more important. For younger children, it's more important because they don't necessarily have the self-preservation tactics to be able to deal with it as we do as parents. As you just pointed out, J.B., I think when a child is 16, that doesn't mean that they are all of a sudden right. Here you go, you're absolutely equipped to deal with all the things that may or may not be shown to you or fed to you

through your social media platforms. I don't even feel as almost a 49-year-old woman that I'm equipped mentally and, you know, psychologically to deal with all the stuff that I see, you know, without me looking for it, okay? But I think, I think at a younger age when, you know, when your brain is, and I did a post about this the other day on my, on my Instagram, the brain and the brain and the, the rate at which a brain, a human or a child's brain develop. There are certain areas of the brain which develop faster than others. So at an age like 12, 13, 14, even 15, 16, I mean, the brain doesn't develop fully until your 20s, really. Yeah, there are certain parts of the brain that, you know, it's just, it's not possible for a child at that age to regulate, to self-regulate or to be able to control impulses. So essentially, you know, I think you're right. It's like that 16-year-old age mark doesn't mean that all of a sudden

they're able and equipped to deal with it. I mean, if we're up to me, I would say raise the age to 18 because I really, we both, we've had this conversation, we both agree. But the truth is, is that the companies, if we can get this legislation passed and if we can just say, right, children cannot access social media that has the harmful features and the addictive features. Because as it stands, the platforms, as we know, they're not safe. And it very quickly turns into something that can be very dark and very harmful and very dangerous without them even looking for it or asking for it. And that's the real worry here is that until they can make them safe, children just shouldn't be on them. So the first part of this is trying to get that basic.

line leveled out. But then there's also the education aspect of it because as a child gets older and they do end up having access to social media, you know, look, inevitably they are going to face the real world and there's going to be things that come around and that they're approached with and that they are confronted with that they're going to have to deal with, of course. But I think the education is important. Getting, um, a bit like learning to drive. You don't give them a car and say off you go. Do you? So they're... And he definitely don't give them a Ferrari. Do you know what you don't go with that. Exactly.

I saw an analogy actually recently that showed a regular push bike. You know, is that what you call it a push bike? Bicycle. And then you have on the side of the bicycle, you have like this really high-tech, you know, e-bike, electric bike, with all the, you know, the wheel, the belt whistles and it goes up to like 60 or 30 miles. And it's like that. It's like, how can you possibly expect to put a child on one of those e-bikes and just say, go without any safety, you know, it's exactly that.

It's the same analogy driving a car, putting them on an e-bike as opposed to a regular bike. It's just, it's not practical. I read something this weekend, actually. It was a piece in the papers from an American software developer who created infinite scrolling, like back in, I think the early 2000s. and his name's Aza Raskin. And he now absolutely regrets ever creating infinite scrolling

because of the damage he's done. And I just thought, oh my God. Well, when I, I don't know about you, Ellen, but when I read that, I just don't know how you sleep at night, actually. But in his defence, he was explaining that when he developed that, it was just sort of like shortcut reloading a page or going to the next page. It was during a time and a culture that was so fast-paced

and it was like, how can we make it this better? How can we make it this easier? How can we make it is faster? Without really thinking through the consequences of creating something like that. And I think, yes, there is online harm out there. I was going to say, that's meta, that's phrase, wasn't it? Move quick and break things. That was one of their company slogans.

We'll worry about it later. Yeah. The problem is you're breaking children. Yeah. Yeah. And lives and families, family lives. Yeah. Exactly.

And I think, you know, we've talked about online harm and that comes in the shape of, you know, harmful images, abusive pictures, like through those discover you feeds where it's infinite scrolling. And you get sort of, you can, those young brains can get influence or brainwashed by or, you know, normalize certain content that actually isn't normal to a, for a young brain. Did you, what was your experience, if you don't mind me asking, with Jules? Did you feel, you mentioned that he liked TikTok? Did you feel like he was, he had developed sort of addictive tendencies or behaviour around it?

100% he was addicted to his phone. I just didn't recognise it as addictive at the time. And now we talk about these things, it's pretty obvious. And I think, you know, other parents can now see the addictive. I mean, parents and adults are addicted. to her phone quite often too, which we're suddenly all noticing now that actually we have our phones too often, but Jules was definitely addicted to it. But we did have conversations. I said, you know, never upload a naked picture of yourself and we talked about talking to

strangers. I mean, actually, Matt Jules's dad calls him watching porn and I said that's one for you and him to talk about. But he's asked him down and said what you're watching is in real life. I mean, the statistics about children that see porn now. Shocking. I can't remember the figures, but by 12, most of them are in Hong Kong. Paul. Matt Satham, Dad, he said, what you're watching isn't real life,

that's somebody's mum, needs to have some respect for that person, they're acting, and it's not real life. But he did actually have a conversation, much to Jules' dismay. He was distraught that he was having that conversation.

It's important that you actually have those conversations. And so it wasn't that we didn't talk about these, and that we were completely parents that weren't there. We were there. Yeah. And we talked about harm. I never talked about online challenges because it didn't cross my mind,

which is why I spend a lot of time educate the people about it. And I still don't know if it was that. I'm still waiting to get the answers that I might find out. Well, the thing is, like you say, you know, you don't know because what we're exposed to

isn't necessarily what they are exposed to. You know, I remember the other day, you know, about the frequency that children are exposed to violence online even. I think 56% or something like that of 13 to 7-year-olds have seen fights involving young people, perhaps at school or wherever, you know, which is shocking because, you know, I remember

seeing things like that growing up, but not necessarily being able to actually access that continued online because, of course, we didn't have it then. And I think for me, one of the questions that definitely, you know, certainly for myself, certainly that other parents will have is what sort of content and trends that you might be aware of now should other people, other parents be looking out for because of course as I say it might not have to be something that we're aware of but they're definitely happening it's definitely going on well I personally there is there's several challenges to do anything now but I personally would sit down with your child if you can get them to you and say show me your feet even play dumb parent I go Jules how's it work show me what you're

looking at you know um show me can we just sit on that page for a minute if we scroll for a bit longer what comes up and just see what things you'll probably regularly see you know, naked women, if it's a teenage boy, if it's a teenage girl, you'll quite often get anorexia, really skinny things. And so I looked at salads last summer because I was like, I liked different flavored salads with pomegranate seeds when I was looking for things. Within about a week, I'm being fed diet materials. Actually, I just wanted a different salad, you know.

So how it analyzes you and what feeds you, but the easiest thing to see what your children are being fed is just to sit with them and get them to show your phone. But get them to show them various accounts, because I bet you, I didn't know until afterwards, Jules had multiple accounts, which I panicked out. Why not have she got one accounts? And then I asked the other NCT moms, and they went, our kids have all got them. One of the daughters had 10. I was like, have you got 10?

Oh, my God. So apparently that's really common. And I just, I initially panicked. I don't know if I about that either. So get them to show different accounts and aspects. I know teenagers may not always be honest with you. I think I had an open relationship. Was he probably honest with me 100%? Probably not. I wasn't honest 100% when I was a teenager.

And I'd get paid things. But I think try to have that open conversation. So just for your security, show what you look at. Educate yourself on the challenges. Swallowing coins, swallowing magnets. Wasn't there that squishy toys into the microwave? And then there were kids going into the hospital with a degree burns. Wow. That's endless. But on a slightly more positive note, and Ellen, this is for you really, but how does it feel that obviously I'm so sorry about Jules, and it's been such a awful tragedy for you to deal with in your family's life, but how does it feel to turn something so personal now

into something that can help others and other families? Very early days, I think within two weeks of Jules died, I was starting a charity and I was like, I need to do something, I need to make something positive about this. And I didn't at the end because I wasn't in the right frame of mind. Although I thought I was strong enough, I really wasn't. But I always said I don't have any other children. I don't have any other children to make a difference for. My niece and nephew are 21 and 23 now. They're older. So, but I always wanted to try and make something positive out of loss of children's life. And I desperately didn't want another parent to have to go through what I've done.

Well, I've hopefully succeeded with that by changing the law. And I'm still determined I'm going to try every single possible route to get answers to Jones until somebody tells me there is no one else to look. I'm going to keep looking. And one day when I get to the end, I will either find out what happened and make a difference with that. Or maybe I have to come to accept that I may never know. But I'm not there yet. I'm still trying. But either way, you are making a difference.

So you should definitely, yeah. Yeah. You really are. Just to recap, as we're drawing to the end now, I'd like to have just some nuggets, some really useful nuggets for parents to take away, really, from this chat. Because like we said, it all can feel so overwhelming trying to keep a hand on all of this. And not just the sort of practical side of all the parental controls and the toggles, but also the sort of emotional side with your children and getting them to open up and talk to you.

So if we can just focus on maybe three things and keep them quite tight for parents, some advice for parents, what would you say when should you give your child a phone? Delayed, delay. I was just going to say that. Long as possible. Do you know what? I regret giving him the phone. I regret it. There, I said it out loud.

I don't know. You said I could take it back, but. Well, that's harder said than done. I think that ship has sailed. I think try to be strong in if you're like if your gut is telling you something's wrong and you don't feel comfortable with it, try not to let all the noise and all the other, you know, factors influence that. You know, you as a parent and it's impossible to know, like Ellen said, like there's just no way to know everything. But if you feel something's not right, don't let it go, right? Like keep pushing at it. Even if you are, you know, I don't know. What else would you say? No, I think you're right. Gut feeling is always quite strong. It's one. It also led me to where I am now. There was something that we're missing.

So I think what other strong points can we use? Just talking, open conversation. Yeah, open conversation. I was going to say what boundaries matter most, would you say? Boundrel. As in, if you've got a phone, definitely phone out of the bedroom. Never have a phone in the bedroom. Devices, all start.

No devices in the bedroom. That's one of our rules, yeah. I did believe, Jules. He told me. Including the screens, including. including television? I don't know. I would say no

because TVs, especially TVs now, there's smart TVs. And also, it's all very well saying, not giving kids phones, I know that Jules accessed TikTok on his school computer. So when he told me he was doing homework, he accessed TikTok.

Just taking away the phones is not going to solve the social media problem. So it's all devices. It is, it is really. And then you've got sites like I didn't know about dot dot go, which is a browsing history where it doesn't show you

what you're looking at. So you could look at banning on your home route to some sites so they can't access those things so you can actually look at search history because I'm looking at Jules of search history thinking why is there no search history and they're only need to be told about

things like dot dot go or there's apps that you can have on a child's phone which look like a calculator. And you actually put in a code and it turns in something else that's hidden behind it. So there's all these clever things that kids know about

that I don't know until after Jules died and his friend was his phone and said, actually that's not a calculator there. And look, or there's something called locket. There's all these clever things. Now, we should have phones if kids are going to have phones, which are locked down and they can't, if you've got them at the right age as well,

they can be linked to a parent's account that you have to approve the apps. We would have one the other day. Eric asks you. I have that now, yeah. What was the thing? He asked you for something. It was a music thing. Oh, I think it's a garage band.

Yeah. Yeah. And you said, I think it's okay. we're looking at the app like analyzing it to see if it's an algorithmically driven app. I mean, that's where we're at. Actually, you made him saying it. He told me, I can't have it because it's an algorithm. He knows.

That's all I talk about. So Eric definitely knows the difference. But we had to sit there at lunch. I suppose I'm sure you set at school, which doesn't necessarily make it safe. But we're then researching garage bands over lunch to work out whether Eric can have it. So do you research, though. It does take a lot of work. Yeah.

And lastly, What conversations should every parent be having with their chart? I'd talk about sex distortion. It's so prevalent in the moment, blackmail of children and reassuring them of whatever they do. They're not going to be in trouble if they come and tell a parent or an adult about it or embarrassed by it. Even if they think they've uploaded a photo, there are very clever companies now that can remove that around the world quite often. But to reach out because most sex-stortion cases, people take their life within an hour and a half. after being blackmailed.

Which doesn't give you long enough to deal with it. So, Jules was on his own an hour and a half. I don't know. May well have been set extortion, but I don't know. But he was on his own for an hour and a half. You know, if I had had the conversation about that, which I think we did, but I don't know whether I did it strong enough. Just talk about blackmail because it's happening a lot.

And it's generally, unfortunately, for about £200, because people in, it's quite often West African organized crime groups and they're blackmail for £200, which £200 is a month's salary to them. And just have that conversation. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then finally, one small change that families can make today.

Don't have your mobile phone at the dinner table. So absolutely free meal times together. For everybody as well. That's a good one. Yeah, everybody. We do that now. We do that now. Yeah.

I'm a sort of, that's a non-negotiable for me. I don't do the phones at the table and we don't have devices in the room, in the bedrooms either. It's really difficult, isn't it? Because we used to do that. And then somebody would say, you know, we're talking about something random like how many years does a tree grow or something? You go, Google it.

You go, look on my phone. Or someone says, let's have some background music. And it's like, yeah, because everything comes back to the phone. Can I add one thing to the new devices in the bedrooms? I had a situation recently. I wonder if your audience will appreciate this. where Eric has a lot of friends sleep over. And I really, you know, I love him having friends over.

But I always tell these kids when they come to my house that this is, you know, these are my house rules. So all mobile phones, anyone who has them, they have to go into like a little basket in the, in the kitchen. And I tell the parents first before they're coming to the house and I say, look, just in case you need to reach them, the phone is always there, that you can always call me if you need to get a hold of them. But I make that rule in my house because, you know, I feel like when kids come over to

play or to hang out, they should just be kids. They should just have that time together and, you know, let them be bored for five minutes and figure it out. Let them go outside and kick a ball around. Let them, you know, do whatever they do. But in my house, it is really phone-free when Eric has play dates and sleepovers and definitely no phones in the bedroom. That is a definite, definite. Can I, Lauren, can I ask what Eric's reaction is when you put that rule down for friends and the parents before a sleepover? Do you know what?

He's actually, he's been good. his gold about it. He gets it. I think he really, I mean, he kind of moans a little bit at me about, you know, constantly talking about social media and this is really a big, big theme in my household, you know, but he, I think it's obviously, it's obviously resonating with him because if I say it and I remind him, there's not even, there's not even a question, you know, every night before bed, he hands the phone to me. He knows that. And it's not even just like put the phone somewhere. It's like, no, it's coming in my room and it's going next to my bed. And that's just, that's That's just the way it is.

Yeah. To be fair to him, he's been really good about it. So, yeah. That's good. I mean, I was saying to J.B. The other day that my 13 year old, she comes home from school now. And she's like, have they done the ban yet? Like she just wants the ban done because, not because she doesn't want social media,

but it's causing so many, not problems, but she's feeling like left out because other friends are on it. And I'm like, and I'm the strictest mom in the world, clearly. Keep doing what you're doing. It's hard though. It's really hard. It's difficult. It's really difficult. And I've not got to that stage yet.

My youngest is seven and my eldest is 11. So we're not quite in that phase yet. But of course, you know, I'm trying to get as much information as possible for when those conversations need to happen. But this is hard. For you. But thank you for your time today, both of you, because it's amazing work that you're both doing.

and some brilliant and useful advice for parents as well listening. So totally appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you guys. Thank you both so much too. Thank you.