The Netmums Podcast - S19 Ep6: KATIE PIPER: How do we raise confident children in an appearance-obsessed world?

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

How do we raise our children to believe they're enough in a world that's constantly telling them they need to look different, be different or do more?This week on The Netmums Podcast, Louise Burke and JB Gill are joined by broadcaster, best-selling author, campaigner and mum-of-two Katie Piper for an inspiring conversation about confidence, resilience and raising children who value themselves for who they truly are.Drawing on both her own extraordinary life experiences (most notably surviving a life-changing acid attack in 2008, carried out at the request of her ex-boyfriend) and her work with international children's cleft charity Smile Train, Katie shares why true confidence isn't something we inherit – it's something we build. Together, they explore how parents can nurture resilience from an early age, support children through the pressures of social media and appearance culture, and encourage them to develop a strong sense of identity that goes far beyond external validation.Katie also reflects on becoming a mum, how parenthood changed her perspective, why she was determined not to pass her own fears onto her daughters, and what her children have taught her about healing, patience and self-compassion.In this episode: Why resilience is the real foundation of confidence Helping children build self-worth beyond appearance Raising girls in the age of filters, influencers and social media Why Katie encourages her daughter to focus on discovering who she is before worrying about relationships Katie's work with Smile Train and supporting families and children born with cleft lip and palate around the world Challenging stigma and misconceptions surrounding facial differences How becoming a mum transformed Katie's outlook on life The parenting lessons Katie's daughters have taught her Whether you're raising toddlers or teenagers, this episode is packed with thoughtful advice and reassuring reminders about helping children grow up believing that who they are matters far more than how they look.Read more expert advice at Netmums and join the conversation on social @Netmums.JB and Louise would love to hear your parenting stories, questions and dilemmas. Email [e-mail] and you could be featured in a future episode.The Netmums Podcast is brought to you by Netmums, trusted by parents, backed by experts.Proudly produced by Decibelle Creative.

Hello and welcome to the NetMums podcast where real parenting conversations happen. I'm Louise Burke, the editorial director at NetMums and... I'm J.B. Gill, dad of two. And today we are joined by a good friend of mine. We're in the studio, which is a first time ever. Yeah, in the studio. And I'm very excited for you guys to get into this, because this is a person who's been inspired by literally millions of people.

Absolutely. We are speaking to Katie Piper today. An absolute inspiration to many. She is a broadcaster and author, a campaigner, a charity founder, a mom of two daughters, very important, and now a global ambassador of Smile Train, the world's biggest cleft-focused charity. Now, this cause is particularly close to your heart, isn't it, Katie, given her experience of living with facial differences and rebuilding confidence after trauma. Yes, and today's conversation is definitely one that I'm interested in and invested in as a father of a seven-year-old

daughter. Now we're talking about resilience, we're talking about confidence, we're talking about raising daughters in a world that's obsessed with the parents and beauty. And I suppose I really want to find out how we can understand and help children know that their worth is about more than what they look like. It's about who they are inside. So welcome Katie to the Netman's podcast. Thank you. I don't know if I could have to stay sat on that pedestal. You just put me on. I love it. I know the list just went on. Oh, I'm not. So, do you want to kick off, J.B.?

Absolutely. Now, as I say, we know you very, very well. I know you very well. And you've spoken on many, many platforms about confidence, about resilience. And what would you say your definition of confidence is in this day and age? I think people often confuse what confidence is, and they often base it on what other people think of them, which then that automatically means it's out.

of your control and it can change just like that. So that's putting yourself in quite a vulnerable space and there's some kind of like fragility to that, right? And I used to be in that space. I used to think, you know, who I was dating or how I looked or even like my professional achievements were what made me who I am. And I suppose, you know, you mentioned about our young girls and even young boys as well, you know, how do we show them what's important and what makes them worthy? For my own experience, it's about not focusing on one thing being your offering and that that's all you bring to the table. So I totally subscribe and understand why people feel confident if they have a certain watch or they buy a new dress. Like that is a real thing.

It's a confidence boost. It's a confidence boost, but it's like a fleeting moment that won't carry you through life. And in answer to your question, I believe confidence, true confidence, is actually closely correlated to resilience. So I would class myself as a highly resilient person, but I'm not just born that way. That's happened to me through life experience and probably more pain than pleasure. So what has happened to me is I have built a memory of trust where I can trust my ability to adapt, evolve, reinvent, and move forward, right? So if I know that I can do all of those things at all times, I know that whatever life throws at me, I can rebuild because I have that resilience. So I'm really confident all the time. Because you're strong. You feel strong.

Yeah, confident that this isn't it, confident that you can't take it away from me, confident that he can't hurt me. So confidence and resilience, you have to develop the resilience first, then you'll always be confident in a situation. So it's fair to say then that your perception of confidence, resilience and someone has developed over the years. I still love a good hair dye. And maybe a new one. Yeah. But that's okay if those things don't control you. And I do know they're not my only offering. And if they were to go, I would be okay, you know. Katie, talking about your offering, now I watched a clip of yours on your social talking about Which one?

Right on the top of the feed. And you were talking about pre the incident with the acid attack in 2008, 2009. You mentioned that your offering back then was that you were pretty. Yes, yeah, yeah. And then post-attack and all the work you've done to rebuild yourself and your resilience as you talk about, you have so much more to offer. Now, I showed that clip to my 13-year-old daughter. I'm getting emotional saying it this morning, but I showed it to her because I wanted to tell her I was speaking to today.

Yeah. And I ended up crying watching it with her. I can understand why it's a female thing. Because I guess I'd introduced your story to her for the first time, and she was blown away quite rightly. Yeah. But it is interesting what you say about the resilience, because I totally believe in that. And you've been able to build that post your attack. But I imagine that's taken a lot of work.

And I know, like we've said, in the end of the resilience. intro, you've written a lot of books, you've done a lot of healing and I know I've listened to some of your chapters in your new book, still beautiful, which is now, and you do talk about that sort of building of oneself and looking for gratitude in the everyday. But just going back to like a day-to-day thing with our daughters, I mentioned my daughter, I've got three. Are we sometimes guilty, though, of falling into that trap of, oh, your hair looks pretty. Oh, that's a nice dress. Yeah.

I know I do it. Do you think that's bad? Because I know. That's a thing. I don't know. I'm asking you. My daughter's beautiful and I tell them they're beautiful all the time. And I think that's okay to praise them for all kinds of different things, isn't it?

But it's the focus of being like, this is who you are to the world and this is what people will want from you. that delays or doesn't allow you to nurture or get to know any other part of you at all. I mean, it's a bit like having a career that's solely focused on one talent and then you never find out, I mean, in this industry, you do have to be quite multifaceted.

And then I think that challenges you that if one opportunity goes to step out to the other one. And I think actually you realize you're good at a number of things and I think that's really good because you should be malleable in life. Yeah, I tell my daughters

they've got beautiful skin, hair, But I don't think that makes them feel that that's what they have to bring to the table all of the time. I guess it goes back to what we were just saying before as well about the boost. I guess those comments or those compliments are fine if they're like the cherry on the top. But they're not the whole that encompasses you. I agree. For me, I definitely tell both my children that they're beautiful and I have the son. Because it's a fact.

Yeah, and obviously you guys don't have boys. but I think it's just important to tell Ace as it is to tell Kiara. But as you say, also, you highlight the other things that make them special. Yeah. I think it's identity, don't you think? Yeah, I was going to say, when you say to Ace that he's beautiful, what does he say back? Of course. Don't you just say thanks.

No, no, he'll say thanks, yeah. He's quite a humble boy. Children don't self-deprecate. They actually say thanks. You know, like if you said to me, you look nice today, I'd like, oh, it's from the sale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you come with like that tip back. And I write about him like that as well. If I'm posting it on Instagram, I'll go, my beautiful boy, you know, or reposting something that Chloe's done.

You know what I mean? I'll always do it. And I think it's really, really important. But like you say, Katie, it's really important to highlight their other gifts, their other strengths and make them aware of it as well. Of who they are. Yeah, because they're developing that identity. And I always say to my youngest P, she's a really good reader. So I'd be like, you are so good at reading.

I'd like you to read to me because I enjoy listening to you. So when she writes about herself and stories, she calls her stuff. beautiful and a good reader. Because they're too right. Those two things can exist. Okay, so that was going to be my next question then. If we're moving away from not moving away, but we're not focusing on those compliments of your hair is lovely.

That's pretty dress. And I'm talking about girls and boys, like you were saying. How do you put those practices into reality, like, sorry, how do you then praise your girls and empower them and make them feel, beautiful and confident, but not telling them that their hair looks lovely at the dress. Yeah. And every day.

I think it's like, sorry, that was a really confident. No, but I know exactly what you mean. And I think also the way you asked it sort of almost shows it is a struggle, isn't it? Like it's hard to do and to get that balance. I mean, they do a lot of physical activities, so they do a lot of sport. They'll go to lots of different clubs. So we'll focus on the things that they're doing, they're studying. You know, my eldest has just gone to senior school and she was in a co-eux.

before. Now it's all girls. Oh, right. So that's a bit of a switch. Yeah. How's that? How's she finding that? Well, we, so I want her to be able to socialise with boys too. So she's going to these discos with like the other schools and the boys. So we've been having these... I loved a disco when I was 30. Yeah, I used to love a disco.

Wait, did you go to all girls as well? No, I went to Mick. Oh, you went to me. I was a mix as well, but the discos were still good. I just talked to disco. They were a big calendar events. Yeah. Yeah. But it led us to have these conversations about you know, you're allowed to chat to boys,

but you're not really allowed to exchange numbers because let's keep all this in person. We don't want things on phones and stuff like that. So I was like, that's the rule. And she was like, but why? And I was like, because this is your time to find out who you are. You don't need to establish yourself with a boy or show him yet. This is your time to develop how you feel about yourself,

what you're good at, what you're not good at, what you do and don't like. And then I was like, I let you into a secret as a girl, because I used to be a girl too. You find yourself, you do all that, that's your offering, and they'll always be around the guys. They'll always be around on the outside. And once you get into year 10, year 11, you can meet them and you can start texting and things like that.

And that was a really big conversation about identity and finding out who we are. And I said to you're beautiful, so the guys will always be there. Don't worry. But if you want to have long relationships with them, develop your likes and dislikes, develop your identity, and get a really good education.

It's one of my regrets, I didn't get a very good academic education. So she's being punished for my mistakes. How is she reacting to that? That's quite a big conversation to have, I think, at 12. I hate you, you're boring. Really? I always get you're so strict.

Well, of course, you've got 13, right? Initially it is like, well, I want to give out my number at the disco. And then because it's a calm chat at home, then it's like, oh, right, okay. And she loves netball. So I'm like, look, you know, netball's like three times. a week and you're going to go away to the netball camp and like, you know,

netball won't be there when you're older if you haven't developed the skill, but guys will be, so don't worry. So it's kind of saying, I'm not saying no to you, but I'm just advising you the order of how you do these things. I think that's a really interesting conversation because I remember my dad actually saying something relatively similar. I can't remember what age that was, but he always said to me, and it's true, you know, when I look at adult life and, you know,

we see it all over the media, you know, you've got 50-something man with you know, 40-something, whatever, girl or lady. I'm going to go into any of that. But do you know what I'm trying to say? My dad always said to me, women, girls will always be there. So we actually focus on the things that you're going to. And at the time, I didn't really understand what he was saying. Well, also, it's the point that actually what you're developing is really attractive.

I was going to say, like, well, let's be honest, the more you work on yourself, there'll be even more boys or girls. Do you want to mean? Because you become more attractive when you know yourself. and you're happy within yourself and you have self-esteem and confidence. I always give that example to Bell. I was like, you know, when I met Daddy, obviously I looked different to other people. But one of the things that was probably attractive to him was I had a very full life, very varied, quite different to other girls and didn't really need a boyfriend.

And that was probably quite attractive to him because it was very different, you know. Katie, do you mind me asking, do your sister, sorry, not your sisters, do your daughters know the full story about your... Yeah, I mean, it's kind of, I always compare it to like if you adopted a child and decided to always tell them that from the beginning, there was no reveal, no sit down. They've always known about that story because it's so visual. Right. And then because also it's such a part of my, like, public life that people would come up to us in the street. And the work you do. Yeah, yeah.

And they volunteer at the charity, so they've met people with more severe injuries than me. So, actually, I always remember when my youngest first started school, and I said, how? How was it? And she was like, nobody's burnt and none of the mums were burnt. And I was like, oh, she said, I thought we'd have one person in the class that would have. Because that was her normal. She's volunteered at so many workshops, so many people. So it reminded me that actually, oh yeah, I guess if you grow up with that.

That's your reality. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even ethnicity, because, you know, their dad's Jamaican, we used to live in London. Then we moved out. And I remember them when they went to the new school, they were like, everyone's white. You know, they, anything, they've grown up as their normality, they then notice, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. But they're a lot older than, you know, 12 and 8, but they're a lot older than they should be in terms of, you know, how they've socialized. Yeah. I was going to say with, so it's Bell who's 12 and who's 8, with Bell now 12 and she's in year 7, we've talked about those discos and the boys. She's also taller than me. Is she? Yeah. Wow.

So I have had, like, you swap clothes. Well, no. She can't fit them anymore. She is a size 8 shoe and I'm a size 4 shoes. Wow. But I had it on holiday in February. Oh, this is actually awful. I don't even know why I'm repeating this story. This guy was like, can have your friend's number?

And I was like, no, because she's a 12-year-old child and she's my child. But she looks, she's got really big Afro hair. Yeah. So almost on the back, it's like a woman's hair. Yeah. And I'm 5'4 foot 3, so she must be 5 foot 4. Wow. Wow.

And aside from those sort of discreet. go boys conversations. What other conversations are creeping in now? She's getting older. Do you know what? She's such a good girl. She loves school. She loves her music. She loves her sport. She's a good runner, good at netball. So she's just a really good kid, and she's really happy, and she loves going to school still. So maybe I'm not in the state. I'm not quite yet, but I can see it coming, actually, yeah, which is always a little bit scary. Yeah. My two are quite lucky at the, yeah, They love school. And, you know, I think it's just about that journey discovery, I think.

You know, you want to give them as many opportunities as you possibly can. Yeah. You know, along that, along that way. But I want to talk to you about Ghana because you very recently come back from there. Yeah. Only a few days ago. Yeah, literally. I haven't landed.

It's still in the hallway. Oh, God. I hate that when you come back. It's a backpack or a suitcase. It's just one suitcase. And like, when I left this morning, the dog was in the suitcase. Oh, gosh. And Richard was like, can you have a backpack?

Yeah. The boring bit. We'll sort that out and we'll get that out. But no, of course you're working with Smile Train. And, you know, they're an incredible charity. Of course, the cleft lip charity and they work with surgery. And you've been out there, you know, talking and meeting, lots of people who've been affected by it. I mean, you know, I know it's a cause that's very, very close to your heart.

What stayed with you most when you came back from that trip? Do you know what? I thought I understood a lot about cleft lip palate. I thought of it as a facial difference and one that could be. be improved with surgery and that Smile Train, you know, they've got 73 centres all around the world. Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, and that they were doing that. But actually, I, there was so much more I didn't know or understand. And when I went to Ghana, they have the, um, the Clef Lips centre there. And it's like a centre of excellence where they give comprehensive clef care.

So what that means is it doesn't just affect the mouth. It affects the baby's nutrition. It affects their hearing, so sometimes their death. It affects their speech, so they have to have speech therapy. So there's all kinds of other issues that go on. And smile and support all of that. Yeah, so they won't just be doing the surgery. They'll be doing orthodontic work. Yeah. They'll be doing therapy groups. They'll be doing speech therapy, E&T, all of those kind of things. But the model that they do is not just about flying into a country with loads of British and American people and fixing people and leaving. Yeah. They train and support. local medical professionals so that cleft care is happening every single day, 365 days a year.

So it's a much more sustainable model where you're improving medical help within, we were in Comasi. So, yeah, I feel that when you're working with a charity, it's so great to see that it's sustainable and it's actually changing the medical landscape. And also, I suppose I hadn't prepared myself for the cultural differences of how facially disfigured children are received. Not always, but in some areas. Some areas, it was completely different. Some of the rural areas, there was a lot of superstition of course, yeah.

Very strong religious communities and someone. Curses into the family, sent from Satan. Wow. Or just general shame where, and a lot of misogyny where the mother was blamed, you did something in the pregnancy, you have something in your past that's brought this shame into the family. So not just children being excluded, but whole family. families being pushed out of communities.

And often people are talking about babies being disposed of. Oh, that's terrible. So were you meeting families or were you meeting medical experts? Yeah, a real mixture. I mean, I took my sister as my plus one and we met a real mixture. We went into rural homes and we met tiny babies, like five-month-old babies, mothers, grandmothers, sisters. We went into villages and communities and met Imans, pastors who, you know, are,

key players in advising the community, sometimes advising and counselling the community really well and helping them access the hospital, sometimes giving them the wrong advice and smile chain are helping to educate some of the leaders where they might be advising them not to seek medical attention, which obviously isn't the best path. Then we went into theatre and we shadowed, put the scrubs on, took a deep breath, and we watched some clef repairs. Then we watched some pallet repairs, which are obviously a little bit more complicated. We visited the hospital, the wards, we went to orthodontic centres. You were all over.

Yeah, we saw the whole comprehensive model. Okay, so you mentioned just then about sometimes the way facial differences can be received in different cultures or different families. When you were meeting those mothers that might have had that experience, did you have any words of advice, not only as a mother, but considering the experience that you've had and challenges you might have think? Yeah, my heart really went out to them because, you know, to see the women being blamed for something is dreadful. And I think if our children experience any difference to their peer group or they're in any kind of suffering or pain, our default is to blame ourselves. Even when we know we haven't done anything wrong. So can you imagine your whole community turning against you and how frightened they must be? And also in this country, clef care begins in the womb.

You know, if you have a cleft baby, you know it your scan. Really? I did not know that. So then you can have that conversation and then the baby will immediately have clef repair. Right. You know, that's just a given in this country. And this isn't a thing that only happens in the parts of the world that we're talking about like Africa. This happens all over the world.

Every three minutes, a baby with the clef is born. So the one in 700 babies will be clef. So this mother gives birth, often, you know, in Comasi, it's a home birth. and the baby comes out and it's very visually different. And some of the mums I was meeting were 17 years old. As a woman, I was like, you're a baby too. So I really empathised with them and all the fear and all the shame they were going through. And I really tried to bring home to them that this is not your shame.

You've not done anything wrong. And although I don't have first-hand experience of clef, I have had lots of surgery. I still do look different. and it's okay. And it's going to be okay for your baby, but the earlier we can intervene with the care, the better for all of you. So it's also that journey of like many of us

are frightened to put our children under anesthetic. You know, some of these people might have never been to a hospital ever before. So we would literally go from the house into the van with them and we would literally go on the ward with them and say, it's going to be okay, you know, you can trust us. And I think meeting me and seeing that

I have my own medical journey did reassure them. Yeah. Well, it's, like you say, and you touch on, you know, some deep feelings there about fear and, you know, lack of experience, kind of beginning, well, for them being the start of their journey, for someone in 17, going through that, you know, it's a big deal. And, and, of course, you know, you've been through a lot of, you know, very, very sort of deep situations yourself. And you've spoken quite openly about not wanting your experience, your personal experience, to, I suppose, cloud the perspective and the view of your daughters. So can you tell us a little bit more about that and what that means to you and the family? I strongly believe, and I think this is because of my own Burns charity,

that the world is an amazing place full of kind people. And I know that to be true because of my own religious faith. My charity is not government funded. It's just the public, right? So how could that be if the world is full of mean, horrible individuals, how could that possibly exist in that way? So I feel really passionate about, you know, some of the stuff that's happening around protecting women and Me Too is really brilliant. And it's so great that we are safeguarding women in a way that we haven't before.

But I don't believe in this kind of all men kind of theory. And I've got some brilliant men in my life. Yeah, of course. You know, Richie really well. Yeah, Richie's great. I love Richie. You know, all the people that actually helped me in the early days of my recovery were a male team. Yeah.

So the lawyers, the doctors, the surgeons, the police. So I think it's really important for my daughters to not be frightened of dating, to not be frightened of men, to think that a man ruined my life. That's not my narrative, you know. So I think it's important never to live your life, all your mistakes or regrets through your children. Because it's not fair. You've had your life.

You know, that's not fair. Have there been moments then in that situation where you've had to stop yourself kind of, I guess, defaulting back to that person and experience? No, because I made a decision a long time ago to not let fear make my choices. Yeah. That is hard because as a parent. Yeah, it's difficult. As a parent, you do sort of default into being protective, right?

I wouldn't have had children if my past still could wrap its arms around me like that. Because I don't think it would have been fair on them. And I did delay dating and having kids because of that reason. And I had a lot of therapy because I don't think it would have been fair to bring children into like a PTSD. kind of situation. But I think you're right, the normal fears that you get.

And you can drive yourself mad, kind of to go on the school trip and you're like, what if the coach comes? Yeah, I know. Look, we all send ourselves mad on a daily basis. But I'm interested, actually you mentioned then, but like when you knew you were having, did you know you were having girls

before you gave birth? Yeah, I had the gender scans. And if you did how you felt about that? I definitely got that thing of like, oh no, I think life's hard. for girls, but actually I don't stand by that statement anymore. You know, seeing the Louis Therun Manusphere documentary and all this kind of toxic masculinity, adolescence series,

I just think men have it just as hard in different ways. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm not saying it's the same. No, it's very different. I would still be frightened if I had a son. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I don't know what you say to your girls, but I know what you say to your girls, but I know what you say to your

daughter, Chloe says, but I always say the line. It's that we're amazing. We create humans. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And feed it and keep it alive. Yeah. All by ourselves. We do. Isn't that just amazing? But my girls have grown up in such a, and it's really annoying. I'm not quite by ourselves, but you know, but it's annoying that I have to reference this because this should just be normal, but my girls have really grown up in a house where it's either 50, 50 of me and rich, or sometimes 60 40 and he's the 60. So they've got like a really... I even hate the term housewife.

I would call it house manager. We switch between being house manager or bringing in the income, you know. So I think my kids will choose a good guy because they've been raised by a good guy. That's amazing. I hope. You picked a good one.

You picked a good one. You picked a good one. What's been your favourite parenting age and stage so far with your girls? I quite like this stage because... We can have like lunch and coffee and we can chat. Me and Bell, like share makeup and jewelry. They'll come to my work sometimes and listen and stuff. So, yeah.

But I have, you know, I have not disliked any of it. It's such a privilege. I didn't actually know that I could have children. I had some, I had to take this thing called rejection drugs because I had like organ and tissue donation. Right. And a side effect is infertility. Wow.

So I didn't know if I'd have a natural way of conception. Yeah. So I, you know, of course it's been tiring, but I signed up for that. So, yeah. And I missed the early days. So do I. Yeah, it was so cute at the smell. And when those pictures flash up on your phone's in memory, I'm always like,

oh, are they that cute? Yes, they were. On this podcast, we love to get as much. Well, you've given us a lot of real, should I say. But what would you say is the hardest thing about parenting right now, like this stage that the kids are at? It's probably like you've got to stay consistent. right? You've got to stay consistent in your boundaries.

Like if there's no chocolate on a Wednesday and you've got to eat your chocolate at the cup of quickly, if it's no social media until you're whatever age, you've just got to be like consistent because that's how you hold the authority in the boundaries. And I think when you're tired or when you're rushing or when you feel guilty because you've been working away is when you kind of break the boundaries sometimes and then it blurs it. I'm probably the one that breaks the boundaries. Fine. I think sometimes you just got to break a few rules. just to get back.

My mom's got a saying, right, everything in moderation, including moderation. Yeah, so there's a time when you can bend the rules of it or bring them and break one, but not all the time.

Yeah, absolutely. Right, on that note, I'm going to... You ready? Are you ready? Are you ready? Are you ready for quick fire? Are you ready for quick fire? Right, okay.

It's not difficult, just whatever pops into your head, the first thing, okay? All right. What's something your daughters think you're terrible at? Oh, cooking. Is that true? Well no, Richie's just better, so he makes me look at it.

What parenting rule do you regularly break yourself? No phones at the table. It's so hard. It's hard. We say this all the time. We say this all the time. I'm like, damn it, my phone. One quality you'd love every child to grow up with.

Resilience. Resilience, because it's related to confidence, yeah. Yeah. What makes you feel most proud as a mum? Seeing them hold their own and not need me, you know. That is a good one. And finally, what's one thing you hope your daughters remember most about childhood? They were so wanted and they were so loved and they were never in the way or an inconvenience, you know.

I like not to sound like a loser, but mine and Richie's lies is centred around them and we love that. Like, you know, our whole world is around them. Yeah. And we really enjoy it. We wouldn't want it any other way. I'm going to finish on one last question if I can't because I can see the time is running out. But what do you think, what's the one thing you think that your daughters have taught you about yourself? They've definitely taught me patience because parenting requires patience.

And as soon as they became verbal, they taught me self-compassion because I had to stop being mean to my self-compassion. because I had to stop being mean to myself because other people were witnessing it. Right. So it forced me to work better on that self-esteem. Yeah. Interesting. Good girls.

Yeah, they love it. They're special children, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, they're the same age as yours. Yeah. Literally, similar ages. I just went down a whole bunny hole on your feed last night. I was just like,

family is just gorgeous. Oh, and they're livid. They're not on it. Oh, well, you've put a little emotional bike I can't, you know, it's like I can see your own gorgeous. She's got a little social media bell, but it's this thing called Cover Star. Have you heard of that? Not yet.

It's like sort of a dance site where her only friends are her school friends. Right. Oh, I don't know this one. They do like miming and dancing and trends. Yeah. Yeah. So no one else can follow her. Yeah.

But yeah, she wants to be TikTok famous now. No. No, don't they all. It's like, Mommy, which K-pop TikTok dance do you like the best? Do you like Game Boy? Do you like, I don't know. And like, brainful. I have the account because I was like, well, I can control it.

I can see who's on it. And I actually think dancing and creativity is really good for them. And she lets up her steam by being creative. Well, Katie, I mean, it's been such an honour to have you. And such an interesting conversation, I think, about confidence, resilience and teaching our children really about how they can identify that within themselves for their futures. And if you've enjoyed listening to today's The Netman's podcast, then please follow, share and review. And we will see you next time for the next episode. Thank you.