The Netmums Podcast - S9 Ep5: Ashley James talks traumatic births, trolls and everything else they don't tell you about!

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Wendy and Jen's special guest this week is Ashley James, who gives a frank and honest insight into her own experiences as a young mum, and how reality can be very different to the dream.

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollage. And me, Jennifer Howes. On this week's show... As excited as I was and as grateful as I was, I couldn't think about birth without bursting into tears. And I was really like reliving that moment. But before all of that... Hello, everyone. Welcome to another podcast.

Today, our guest is someone very exciting and she's got lots of, she hasn't got anything in common with me. She's famous. I'm not. She's gorgeous. I just, anyway, there are things that this woman is about to experience that I have experienced, and I am very keen to chat to her about them. Tell us who we've got, Jen. Hi, Wendy. Yes. So today we have Ashley James on the podcast. She is a TV presenter and DJ. She's appeared in Celebrity Big Brother and has an Instagram feed full of inspiration, ideas and insights into her life with her family, including partner Tommy Andrews, son Alfie and her bump. She's also the face of the newly launched Boudoir Lingerie collection

from Sainsbury's Two clothing brand and we'll be talking more about this gorgeous collection a little later including how you can get it but for now let's welcome Ashley. Oh what a lovely intro thank you, thank you for having me. Welcome, thank you for joining us. So I'm going to kick straight in, Ashley. You've said before, and I commend you for saying before, that you found a lot of the baby stuff and the parenting stuff a bit boring at times. And I think you've just said out loud what so many parents think and are scared to say out loud which is really refreshing um why is it why was it so important for you to speak out about it and what were the things that you found

the hardest I think for me like even before I entered the world of motherhood it's always been quite important for me to be authentic I think because I spent so much time in my teens and twenties trying to say and be what I thought people wanted me to be. I just wanted so much to be liked. And I realized that actually, the more I was like chopping and changing myself for everyone else, A, the less I knew who I was, but also people still didn't like me, go figure. So the more I started to like talk about things from the heart, A, the more I felt happier in myself, but also I connected with people that I actually got on with. And also I think when you're open and especially when it's like

slightly taboo topics or more vulnerable subjects, that's when you find your tribe of people. And for me personally, as I'm sure for lots of people for social media for all the positives it's also a very like curated sort of um feed and I became a mum in lockdown so I didn't have mum clubs or mum friends I was pretty much the first person in my group to have a child so I did feel very alone with lots of the things that I talked about and especially you know postnatal recovery like prolapse and all that stuff so whilst I'm like a figure on the internet it's also my community as well so as for the motherhood being

boring I know that when I say things like that that it can get completely twisted out of context and I saw a few of the tabloids being like Ashley James slams motherhood as boring and that's obviously not what I'm saying like you know and I think this is why mums particularly mums but parents struggle so much is because there isn't a village anymore lots of us don't have a support system we're trying to work as if we don't have children and raise children like we don't have a job and deal with all the like fast pace of modern life that you know other cultures and even you know 50 years ago there was more support around and it is really hard and we're so scared to say anything about it being hard because you know we're scared that people will say we don't love our children. But because I know how much I love my child and because I know that I'm such a good mom,

I feel like I can say things and people are always going to twist words. Even when you're trying to please people, people will see what they want to see. So yeah, that was kind of my reasoning for just admitting that a lot of it is quite boring. Yeah, the village stuff is so true. We're expected to be full-time career women, full-time mums, full-time wives or partners. And there's not, not many of us have our mum around the corner or our auntie or someone who can come and help you pick up the pieces. And kids always get sick on the day that you're supposed to be doing something important and they always need you when you're really tired and there is that community doesn't exist anymore does it it's also um you know one of my um good friends around here she's a stay-at-home mum and the expectation on her is enormous you know we we hear judgment

all the time like oh mum's sitting on the park on their phones or ladies that lunch and you know it's like when people go to work it's expected that they get a lunch break they get to socialize outside of those work hours but for some reason even stay-at-home mums um I mean hats off to them because I honestly couldn't do that role full-time it's it's it's crazy how much judgment is on them. Like they never get to switch off and to, you know, be on their phone at the park judgment free. And yeah, the pressure is enormous. And I think we never quite realize until we enter into motherhood ourselves

and then we're like, hang on a minute. Yeah. And I think too, that judgment, that sense of if you complain that, oh, well, you wanted to be a mom. Can I not notice that there are elements of being a mother that are drudgery or difficult or sometimes even that I'm not suited for? And so I will get someone in to help me, whether that's a childcare person or a childminder or a partner or something. And do you know this, this like rhetoric, I see it a lot.

Well, you wanted them or don't have children if you can't afford them. They're the two things that are always like thrown. Or if we talk about childbirth, it's like, do you think you're the first person to have had a baby? And the problem with this is that we have to talk about these things to make it better like you know we know for example in the UK we have um I think the world's most expensive child care now obviously child care providers aren't getting that payment so the system is broken and so when we talk about things I think as mums quite often we're brushed aside as being negative but actually the more the more we do raise awareness about these things, same about childbirth, like postnatal care, then the better it will be for the future.

But what I found really frustrating is when I was in my 30s and I said I didn't want children. Obviously, fate took me down a different path, but I never consciously made a decision of, well, I want children. But I was always discredited for saying I didn't want children it was always like oh you'll change your mind or you won't be complete or you won't know what love is and then I had a child and then it was like oh well you shouldn't have had them if you didn't want them and I was like but when I said I didn't want to when I said I didn't want them you told me that wasn't valid either so I feel like people just like you can't win yeah exactly well let's you mentioned the um

the first birth obviously you're about to welcome a new baby into the into your family but tell us a little bit about you know what it was like to have that kind of very difficult first birth experience and kind of how you've come through it? So what I would say about my first birth is I was really excited to give birth, which sounds crazy, but, you know, I did everything right. So I did the antenatal class and the hypnobirthing and I had my fairy lights and the music. And, you know, I feel like in our pregnancies, we're told like it's almost down to us to do it right. You know, the body knows what to do.

It's like a mindset thing. And so I really wasn't prepared. I knew I was very open about my birth plan. I was like, if I need drugs, I'll take drugs. If I need a C-section, I'll have a C-section. I was very open-minded to the fact I'd never done it before but I was also quite confident that because I've ran marathons I was like I know how to push my body past the point of pain I know how to keep going I'm strong-willed I'll be fine and both my mama and mother-in-law both had really quick births as well so I kind of had it built

into my head that it thought it was in your genes. It was coming your way. Yeah, it'll be early. It'll be two or two to four hours max and it'll be done. And that just wasn't my experience at all. And obviously it was lockdown. So there were added stresses because Alfie was born on the 9th of January. We went back into a lockdown. I think it was around the 5th or the 7th of January. And so that was really stressful because obviously they kept changing the rules so there was moments I didn't know if Tommy would be allowed in with me I still think that's a very barbaric thing about like I don't care what the

circumstances are you should never have to give birth without a birth partner especially when at the time you're allowed to go to Wembley and to the pub and to the golf course priorities but um it just wasn't what I imagined and I think it's because all the courses said you know you're in control know your options you know what your options are so when it got to a point where the pain was unbearable and by the way it wasn't the contractions um actually the final pushing bit was more kind of what I expected that pushing but with an end goal a bit like a marathon but it was had this consistent pain and so when I was advocating for myself saying can I have a c-section can I have an epidural it just was going unanswered and that was for like the longest period of time and then

you know they said which is by the way completely valid like we're going to go home have a nap and then come back and that was what got into my head because I was like where do you live how long is your commute and you have time to go back have a nap how long are you gonna and then I was thinking like am I going to be here forever like that's going to be that means that I'm in pain and so obviously the pain relief never came I was off of pethidine I think in like hour 15 which was great for about three hours but it actually made me sick it didn't really take the pain away it just sort of like numbed me away from it but obviously at the beginning when when it was all over I was so relieved it was over. And I was just so grateful and happy, which I still am, that he was here and healthy and that I was there and healthy. It took me a

long time to actually realize how much trauma I had from the birth. And, you know, it took me three months to realize that I'd been stitched up incorrectly. And when I realized that fecal incontinence wasn't just a normal part of the postnatal recovery. And so then I started to try and heal, especially because I knew that we wanted one more baby. And yeah, I got a birth debrief, which anyone can do, by the way, it's free on the NHS. And actually, they said that if you have any questions or concerns about your birth experience, they actually encourage you to have the debrief because it allows them to give feedback to the hospital, which of course makes hopefully birth experiences for future people better. And I think I was expecting to be told the reason I couldn't have an epidural was because staffing shortages or safety to the baby,

or, you know, just like a pragmatic reason. Oh, yeah. you know just like a pragmatic reason oh yeah something that felt like a valid reason yeah and also to be just like told like an adult like oh you know really sorry there wasn't enough staff or really sorry it would have put your baby at risk but they put on the birth notes that I was coping fine and I think that's what really upset me because that's when I felt like my trust was eroded slightly. Because number one, I was like, well, pain is subjective, but I do have a high pain threshold and I was in pain. But even if I had a low pain threshold, why should that matter? That unless there is a medical reason for me or the baby that we couldn't have had that pain relief, why is it denied to us? So that actually almost created more trauma and I became really upset so

when I found out I was pregnant as excited as I was and as grateful as I was I couldn't think about birth without bursting into tears and I was really like reliving that moment and funny enough even now and even though I've decided on a different birth route just so mentally I can treat it like a whole new experience. And I'm also under medical advice because I was stitched up incorrectly. Even now when I get Braxton Hicks, it really takes me back to birth. So there's still a lot of trauma there, but at least knowing I'm doing it a different way allows me to be excited for this experience.

You know, I always say to people like there's there's no reward for doing it pain-free like imagine if we were going to have a hip replacement and I went into the doctors and I was like guys decided I'm going to do this without any pain relief they'd be like why you're mental but for some reason when it comes to childbirth there's still this thing and this guilt attached to whether you choose to have pain relief. And I would say, like, why is that built in? Where's the medicine for that? Yeah, medicine has evolved so much.

And when I say I did it without pain relief, obviously I had pethidine, but people are like, oh, my God, that's amazing. Wow. It wasn't your choice. No, no. I wanted all the drugs. I wanted it to stop and it was this really traumatic experience that I still feel like I lived through but because childbirth is so common it's really hard I think for people to understand how traumatic it can be especially

because the narrative is always mother and baby doing fine you know there's a there's always like a shutdown people don't really want to hear about the birth unless they've had babies and then they probably care a bit more but then we all want to hear about them yeah but I think you know it's like this thing of like oh you know you always hear negative birth experiences and I would say yeah but none of us want them it's not like we're like they're badgers that we're like, oh yeah, tell me your negative birth story. Like, of course we all want positive birth stories, but it's also not our fault if we don't. And I think that's what people struggle to see. And especially with things like hypnobirthing, by the way, I think, you know, it gave me some really valuable tools, but I also think the overriding message is if you do everything right, you'll

have a great birth. And there's just so many variables that make that not a true statement yeah it's it's a very good girl narrative right yeah if you do xyz then you will get the gold star and i did xyz and i did not get the gold star yeah you just got the stitches i got a really a really big baby um and yeah a lot of stitches so I've already talked about your most intimate bits now I want to talk about your knickers please moving on from intimacy moving on from intimacy let's talk about your pants um so you are one of our favorite body positivity champions at Netmums, but you have now got a sexy range of lingerie, but it's sexy and functional.

This is what I'm liking about it, reading the blurb. So thicker straps, underwiring, inspired by the 20s and 30s Parisian boudoirs. That's apparently what your underwear is all about. Is it basically posh granny knickers for mums it's not granny knickers and this is the thing it's it's like beautiful lingerie and it was so um important to me so I'm I'm two clothings ambassador and when we first started um talking about the partnership and if it could work I was like well lingerie was a really big thing for me I had I think I was a 30 double g

at the age of 14 and I really struggled not only from like comments from boys and adults and you know I was always made to feel very ashamed of my body like I needed to cover up but you know all the usual like everyone was shopping in the sensor at the time they didn't do above a c or a d cup so all my friends were in these really cute Winnie the Pooh bras whereas like I'd have to go shopping with my mum and my gran to the local department store and put in these like really like ugly bras that I'm pretty sure even my gran wouldn't want to wear so and when I started chatting with two I am that mum like you know Sainsbury's is my local supermarket I am the mum that does my food shop and then it's like oh let's have a look at two so even though I'm the ambassador I'm also the

consumer and I was like there were there were no bras for people with a double d and they did some research that shows I think the average um bra size I can't remember what it is but it's something like a 36e or double d now and whereas it used to be a 34C. So yeah, we just start talking about making plus size lingerie or double D and beyond lingerie more accessible and more affordable without losing the sexiness. Because I feel like when you go double D plus, there's lots of beautiful lingerie available if you've got a massive budget and like it is so crazy expensive and it's frustrating when you see people in lovely high street bras that don't cater for you or they do them and they look really lovely and you're

like oh that's a nice bra have you got it in a double d or you know in my case an e or an f well sometimes they'll be like, yes. And you're like, great. And then they bring out and it's like, oh, it doesn't look nice anymore. Like any way it looked nice has been taken away. It's usually beige, isn't it? If it's anything above a D, it's kind of beige. It looks like it's got some sort of pulley system so that everything,

and you have to hike it in. It looks like you should be like packing it on your back when you're about to go bungee jumping not like to feel your best whereas all the other ones are like lace and gentle and all pretty colors yeah I'm with you on this big bras are historically rubbish yeah so these big bras they buy it starts from an A cup so you know they have all the usual sizes it starts from I think it's like a 32A goes up to a 42 double G they're just beautiful like they've got lace they've really intricate detailing and genuinely I'm not saying this I'm not being paid to say this but they're just really really beautiful while still being supportive and they start from eight pounds you

can get a long like a full set for 25 pounds so really affordable so yeah it's a really nice thing to be part of especially because I feel like my own body confidence journey lingerie has played such a big part in that so yeah it's nice especially like you know as mums I feel like it's getting kind of like getting your identity back and feeling good even when you might not recognize your body are there nursing bars as part of the way not yet but i'm working on that because they're even more disgusting they really are aren't they and i feel like that's such a like precious time when you already feel a bit disgusting like you're bleeding and your boobs are leaking you might have mastitis like yeah um we're work we're. There's cabbage leaves in the bra. Yeah, I love these.

I think also it's the range of colours, these kind of beautiful tones. So it's not just your white, your beige, your black ones. We're always told, inevitably, every year it feels like the fashion press comes out with some kind of quotes from experts saying, most women are wearing the wrong size bras and I think yeah because we can't find the nice ones out there that actually fit us also that are affordable so there's really there's so much to really like about this range to go and try it so I'm I'm looking forward to going and exploring them yeah I hope you like

them they yeah like I said I love them they're really nice I can't wait to get back in them I had to shoot the campaign at I think I was two or three months pregnant and obviously at the moment I can't really wear underwired bras um so I'm looking forward to being able to get back into them after this I love how boldly opinionated you are online. I think it's a really good thing. How do you decide what to say and what to keep private? And kind of, obviously, we all sit there and read something and we think, oh, bloody hell, I want to talk about that. But how do you decide to actually, no, actually,

keep your mouth shut on this one, don't say anything, and then which ones to kind of stick your head above the power pets and say something about well I'm glad you love how boldly opinionated I am because I think my parents are like why can't you just be quiet especially because we have a lot of political differences I guess it's just what I feel passionate about but also realistically what I have time to think about and what I have the mental capacity to deal with at that time. Because there's lots of issues you could talk about all the time, but I feel like sometimes mentally you have to step back. Sometimes with work, mum life, social life, everything else, you have to step back. But it's usually the things that I feel very strongly about.

You've had issues, obviously, because you're so frank online. You know, you've had kind of online abuse, you had this awful situation of someone reporting you to social services. I thought your response to that was very measured and grown up considering how kind of outrageous that was. So how do you cope with the online abuse and the negative comments? I mean, it seems like you're always up for a good debate, but what do you do when it tips over? I think online abuse sadly comes whether you give opinion or not. people will always see things through their own perspective and you know it is frustrating when people get things totally wrong or people have you totally rocked like you know if if people can say like the wildest things and you're like

that's not even true and you have to sort of fight the urge to want to like defend yourself um but the the thing with social services was hard especially when I knew it was sort of like a group of people doing it and it it wasn't necessarily because I feared that Alfie would get taken away from me because I know that you know I said to social services you could come around day or night and all you will see is a love child but it was kind of the fact the anger that they were having to deal with me instead of children that might be abused or neglected like you know we all know how valuable social services time is and how short staff they are and like they already have too much to do with too little and so I was like how could people because also my internet is just a small corner on the internet like people can choose to follow or not to follow and I totally

understand the the debates and arguments around like showing your children online and you know there's so many reasons why I'm not everyone's cup of tea and that is totally fine like but the fact people choose to follow you purely out of hatred and they want to make your life yeah well that's just unfollow me and bugger off and do your own thing and leave me in peace why why are you doing this social services as well is once you're on their radar they have to alert hospitals your doctor um school obviously alfie's not at school yet so there's there's so many implications to somebody doing like a false allegation like that but um you know luckily i got that sorted i'm sadly it probably won't be the last allegation i know that there's been like

police you know police calls and social service calls but this is also why you know i've been in parliament and discussing the online safety bill like the internet has to be safer because people shouldn't get away with making things up or kind of starting a campaign of hatred or you know in lots of people's cases even for like our daughters like you know the sexual harassment and the unsolicited pictures like the internet has to be safer because people wouldn't get away with it in real life and yeah so that's again something that makes me passionate about trying to fight for change which going back to your question about being opinionated I feel like with lots of topics it's not enough to sit back and of course we can't all be champions of every topic and there'll be

things that we we care more about than others from totally selfish perspectives but i feel like the state of um you know our country at the moment and especially with regards to child care costs and um you know mothers being forced out of the workplace and then the government being like if only there was something to that we could do to get people back into the workplace let's write mums a letter that'll help so yeah I feel like there's things that you really really can't not be opinionated about because you want there to be positive change if not for us then for our kids right that's what it's all about I'm very impressed that you have the time to do this with a toddler and a bump this is like fair play to you for advocating for this stuff while also growing a baby and running around after a toddler yeah I feel like we all we all make positive changes in whatever capacity that we have and ultimately if I if I didn't have the privilege

of child care of being able to afford child care which it's crazy that it is a privilege but sadly in our country it is that I wouldn't be able to do all of this so yeah I feel like you know everyone does whatever they can in within their limits and capabilities and circumstances. So our social editor, Alison Perry, she also, she does a podcast called Not Another Mummy Podcast. So the question from our social editor is, well, she's got two actually. So one was, how do you stay so calm when you're on Dan Wooten's talk show? It's hard. I won't lie. Like we're very different. It different it's also you know I'm pretty much the only liberal voice on that show which is why I'm there so of course it's hard to be confronted with lots of very different opinions when you are the minority and it's very character building but

you know I always say that if I'm able to hold my own and know my stuff in an environment like that and Dan you know love him or hate him he's a very good journalist like he he will come for you and so I think anything I do going forward um that's always going to be the hardest thing that I've ever done you know trying to defend Megan and Harry to Dan Wooten if I can if I can do that um or you know talk about child care or whatever it might be so then this whole parenting thing is easy after that yeah well even like no matter what tv I go on to do after will be a walk in the park so nothing will be as hard and also I'd say that I hold my own like I feel like any of us should when we are trying you know I don't want to be

opinionated for the sake of being opinionated and I also don't want to think that my opinions are right and that anyone else who has my opinions is wrong and my aim for going on a show like that is to hopefully make people see a different perspective and consider a different perspective when they're only being told one narrative so if I don't keep my cool therefore there's no point in me being on there because nobody wants to hear an angry lefty just shouting you know they they want to be like oh actually I hadn't considered that I hadn't considered that wider parents have children if they can't afford them. Well, who's going to be the future workers? You know, like that. So it's about trying to be composed, but thinking, well, it's not about me and Dan. It's about hopefully reaching new audiences to implement positive change. While also becoming a master of Zen so that you don't actually just shout at him.

Yeah, sometimes i do well thank you ashley for taking time out of your final trimester to chat with us and share your stories oh it's been a pleasure thank you for having me