The Netmums Podcast - S9 Ep6: Listen Up, Speak Up with Jim and Sarah Chapman

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

YouTuber Jim Chapman and his wife Sarah on the new Listen Up, Speak Up campaign they're fronting for the NSPCC, plus mum shaming, preserving parents sanity and their very big news! Oh, and all that's wrong with belly buttons!

You're listening to The Netmums Podcast with me, Wendy Gollich. And me, Jennifer Howes. On this week's show... There's always people close to you who go, yeah, we thought something was wrong, but didn't want to get involved, wasn't our business, didn't want to sort of like ruin the family dynamic and say something when, you know, everyone has arguments, etc, etc. But actually, by knowing the correct steps to take, it could have saved...

I mean, it could have changed my mind and my siblings and my mum's life, basically. But before all of that... Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode. I am feeling springy. It finally feels. There's crocuses poking up. There's little daffodils poking up. I've got hope that spring is coming. And I've got two lovely guests with me today, but no Jen because Jen is off doing other things today. So today's guests are here to promote an incredibly worthwhile campaign for the NSPCC. Jim is a successful YouTuber, a writer, a model and his book 147 Things is described as the user's guide to the universe from black holes to belly buttons. Sarah's a model and the two got married

last year and have a little girl called Margot. They are here to talk about Listen Up, Speak Up, the NSPCC's campaign which focuses on what every one of us can do if we think a child is being abused. So welcome to the show Jim and Sarah. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Now first off at Netmums we want to say congratulations on your wedding and on the birth of lovely Margot. How old is she now? She's 17 months yesterday. Yes. Yeah. And is she a twatty toddler yet? Sometimes. She was this morning. Yeah she do you know what she's an absolute bundle of joy. She's super delightful and even when she is a twat she's also like very charming with it.

But for the most part, we haven't like fully entered that realm yet. But she's got a thing where she just wants to climb the stairs all the time. And if you don't let her climb the stairs all the time, she will have like a meltdown. No, the problem is when she does things and you're trying to discipline them,

but it's actually really funny. So last night, she's actually a really good sleeper. We are so lucky she usually kind of does seven till seven she sleeps like a dream but last night oh bugger off last night she was just awake wanted to hang out with us and she was she was playing what jim and i call silly buggers where she pretends to cry she's like crying but then as soon as you settle her she chats to you and sings there was nothing wrong with her and she said should I bring her downstairs she'll just sit with us for 10 minutes calm down and I'll put her back she started singing and picking my nose and going hello she's I don't

know where she's picked it up from she's picked up this like cockney voice so she goes hello I love and she's literally finger as far up my nose as she could jam it and I was trying to like hush I was trying to like grunt at Jim, stop laughing at her. I found it funnier than Zara did. So I was kind of banished from the room. Stop laughing. We're supposed to be disciplining. But actually you're there, like you have to laugh.

It's even worse when they get bigger because mine's 11 and does stuff. And I'm like, I can't laugh at this because she'll know I'm laughing. Right. We have to take turns to leave the room to laugh because she knows. And both of us at this point, both of us were just in stitches. And then she thought it was funnier. So I picked my nose even more. I love it, though.

The things they do and the way their mind works. Just every day is like a little tiny adventure. Yeah, I was colouring with her yesterday. She's got a little play table and we were colouring and she crawled round to where I was opened the back of my jeans and looked in as if checking for a poo like I do to her and she went nope and then crawled back off well I'm very pleased to hear that you didn't have poo in your pants yeah no I didn't it wouldn't surprise me if there was one so what's day-to-day life like in the chapman household on youtube it looks gorgeous yeah i mean it's super varied because obviously

we're super lucky that both sarah and i essentially work from home ish you know there's a lot of travel involved with our jobs um so the it takes a lot of diary management um because if i've got meetings or i've got somewhere to be or sarah's on set somewhere if we both booked in on the same day we're like hold on we've got a child we can't do this so it takes a lot of like um like in in the evening we'll go right tomorrow who's where what's happening having a shared calendar was life-changing for us we realized like i don't know why we didn't do it and the first the first kind of two or three what's happening having a shared calendar was life-changing for us because we would suddenly realize like I don't know why we didn't do it and the first the first kind of two or three months of having Margot was actually quite tough because it was it felt like that kind of like hot

potato and like passing it to me to you and it was difficult there was like no structure because we both went straight back to work we didn't take time off and then I was like no structure because we both went straight back to work. We didn't take time off. And then I was like going away to, I was going to a casting, but then I'm there like, oh, I need to breastfeed, but then where's the kid and what's going on? And then it did get to a point where we said we need to get some structure and management. There's also a lot of like that guilt.

I had a lot of dad guilt because obviously if I'm at home and I'm working from home, I'll be in my office writing. Now, that's really tricky because I could just close the door and forget about everything. But it's really tricky when you can hear your kids crying and you can hear your partner struggling because you can only take 10 minutes before you lose your mind with the kids just sulking in your face. Right. So I had a real guilt about not being present when I'm semi-present just in a room upstairs so then I would stop working I'd come downstairs and I'd help out but then you aren't focused on work so actually you become less efficient at work and less good as a parent because you're neither here nor there so we had to sort of come up with a plan where if I'm in the office and the

doors close and I'm writing them you have to sort of treat it as if I'm out at you know a traditional working environment so that I can actually focus but I still do feel terrible if I can hear her having a sulk or I can hear Sarah you know struggling downstairs so I just I take long lunches. Equally I feel guilty if if I say that I'm gonna go I'm gonna have an hour to oh I'm gonna go, I'm gonna have an hour to myself, I'm gonna go, I don't know, get my nails done and I'll think the whole time oh my gosh I'm like it's that thing that's programmed into you that you think but I'm the mum, I should be at home and that's not a reflection on dad and how good of a dad he is, you just sit there and think I'm letting everyone down because i'm not

feeding my child changing my child like why am i why am i not doing it oh it took it took months to negotiate sarah's hair washes like i was just like go go wash your hair like why why are you making it such a big deal but then i'm upstairs for for an hour and a half because i've got to wash it and i'm like yeah that's fine i'll be okay but then she you know it took months and eventually i had to say, do you understand actually what you're saying indirectly is that you don't trust me to have time alone with our daughter. And obviously that's not what she meant, but I had to sort of flip it on her a little bit. You know, I was like, all this guilt you're feeling about disappearing for an hour and a half to have much needed time actually is reflecting terribly on me because I is the way I'm reading it is that you're not

allowing me to be alone with her so as soon as I said that she's like oh my god you're right um but it's hard for mums because we're pre-programmed to not trust anybody else to be able to do it even dad that's it's and it's hard for dads to get their head around the fact that mums think no one else can do it right Right. I mean, I certainly, I mean, Sarah walked in today and I was holding Margot by her legs upside down. So, I mean, she's not far off. So talk to me about the renovation. I love a project. What are you doing and what's been the biggest drama? We did everything.

So when we used to live in, we had a Maisonette, which was this gorgeous flat, but it was upstairs and then up some more stairs and I really didn't want to move out. And Jim was quite rightly so. He was like, logistically, where are we going to put a push chair? You can't even get up the stairs into our house, into the building itself itself let alone into our flat and went then where are we going to share a corridor where are we going to do this how's this

going to work so we moved and we found this lovely house but it was a bit of a do-or-upper and then as we started doing it up it was more of a do-or-upper we didn't realize how much of a do-or-upper it was that's the law yeah it's always've always, like in every house I've ever owned, I have bought one that didn't need loads of work, but a little bit because I like a project. And also you can sort of then maximise your resale, et cetera, et cetera. And you make it your own.

And you make it your own. But we moved in and I started peeling off the wallpaper and then the walls fell down. And I was like, oh my God. And Sarah was heavily pregnant at this point while I was peeling lead paint off the banisters. So I sent Sarah away to live with her mum for a few weeks. I think I stayed at my parents I think I was there was one point where I called my mum because then we also had issues once Margot was born we had things like the windows needed replacing and then we and it

was supposed to just be in and out in a day but then they smashed one of the panes of glass on a Friday and they said we can't replace this until Monday. And I was like, I've got a newborn. What do you want me to do? And I called my mum and said, I'm going to get on the train with Margot and come and stay with you. And my mum said to me, she's like, I will never, ever say no to you. But at some point, like, what are you doing? Because you call me up every other weekend saying we've had a drama and it's

not safe and I have to come and stay with you. In hindsight, it wasn't ideal. So I think, and also like whenever I've renovated before, it's just been me or me and Sarah, you know, I've never had a little person to think about. So we did it at a rate of knots so quickly to get it done. But this was during a pandemic and it was like it was impossible to get hold of anybody um so everything took longer than it was supposed to and of course cost more than it was supposed to which then delayed things because i had to wait for invoices to come through and anyway it just took forever um and then we finally moved back in in was it like november when we had the kitchen renovated and now i'm just not touching the house ever again but you

know what it's wonderful we have we've pushed out into our garden so we have I'm kind of you can't see it and also can't I always forget this on a podcast I like describe things and I and I'm doing hand gestures and I'm like they can't see what I'm doing um we have um we have this really lovely little bit of extension that's got so much light in it and we've kind of turned that into um that's child's own and that's where margo's toys are and it's it's in the kitchen so if we're i think a lot of time is lived in the kitchen and a lot of domestic tasks you know emptying the dishwasher or filling the laundry i can still watch her and she can play and i can kind of cook dinner while she gets on i mean it's about three months old the area of the house and it's already probably the most loved. Yeah it's lovely and it is worth it.

Yeah in hindsight it was worth it for sure. So let's talk a little bit about the NSPCC campaign it's called Listen Up Speak Up and its aim is to help more of us play a part in preventing child abuse tell us a little bit more about it and why you guys decided to get involved for me it made loads of sense there was there was abuse in in my childhood um and so when the lovely people kind of got in touch it was over christmas time because they had this campaign with with some chocolate and this reached out and uh i didn't have a contact there so when they when they emailed me i was like let's let's go for a coffee and talk because i think there's more to be done here so then we've jumped on it um and i think because i've got such a big audience and it's something

i've spoken about plenty in my what tenure on the internet how long i've been doing it like 13 14 years a lot of my audience have been with me for a long time and they know about my previous existence my childhood you know um and so from first-hand experience i just think when it comes to listen up speak up had that existed when i was was young it could have changed things drastically, you know, and all it takes. Essentially, it's basically asking yourself, if not me, then who? Because you could see something and you could raise alarm bells. It could trigger something in you. You could think, that doesn't sit quite right, but it's none of my business.

So I won't get involved. And it just kind of challenges that thought process and say, hang on. It's none of my business. I won't get involved and it just kind of challenges that thought process and say hang on it's none of my business I won't get involved but what if everybody else says that what if nobody else sees it what if I'm the only person. NSPCC came over to speak to my husband and I was kind of in and out because they were at our house having this conversation and I think a lot of people that get involved in the campaign I know most of the other ambassadors that we met on the day they have know most of the other ambassadors that we met on the day, they have similar to my husband, they've had abuse in their childhood or quite

close to them. And it's such a personal campaign. But what really spoke to me when chatting to the NSPCC team is part of the heart of this campaign is actually it's people it's challenging people like me who have had a lovely childhood and a lovely family who think not me it can't happen you know perhaps someone like Jim is more aware of it or say the other ambassadors because that's their lived experience but you know you think oh it's not me I live in a nice life I do this and actually it it's everywhere to everyone and we can all we can all make a difference and i think it's getting people to change their beliefs and it's this really brilliant quick online training that it just kind of it's it's just challenging your way of thinking when you see things so it's literally challenging that what did i see and

does that does that seem right to me it takes 10 minutes and it genuinely does take 10 minutes it's super quick and it kind of drops you in a few scenarios and it makes you aware of a few things that might you might question and then how best to respond and what steps to take next oh I think that's the crux is how best because you always have the fear that what you've seen was just something inconsequential and if you start that process of raising the alarm you could be doing that family a huge disservice but then i guess the campaign is saying that you could also be helping a child for sure yeah and that's that's very much kind of the astrid one of the big things that stops um like an onlooker or somebody who who sees these things from um actually reaching out is the thought that oh that it might be nothing

and you know the family might get in trouble but that's the entire point right because if it is nothing then no one's going to get any trouble. We all have bad days, you know, like that's fine. It makes me think my my mom's best friend told her recently that she went to go and pick up the grandkids from school and they pulled her into the office. And we're like, we're really sorry, but we have to have a word with you because your granddaughter has been telling us. I don't really like it when granddad tickles me on the bum and they have some sort of game that they play and it's totally innocent completely innocent and she said oh i know she's been really funny they played this game blah blah blah and she said and there was no harm done and it became it was like a joke she said oh naughty granddad and she said i'm glad that you pulled me in and it was

just it then became just an anecdote that she then said the next day over coffee with my mum no harm done but isn't it better that that's been pulled up and checked than someone going oh no I've met their grandparents there's definitely nothing wrong there yeah and very often it won't it wouldn't even um come to that very often it's you might notice that um a parent is struggling maybe they're a single parent and they just don't have the time and the capability and they're at their wits' ends and they might themselves be, you know, in a negative place. It's about providing the support for that parent and letting them know the options available to them

as opposed to chastising and kind of jumping in and, like, stopping it. Because, you know, it's very much about um awareness um and just sort of trying to like adjust the way you think and and help and be positive as opposed to i think part of the part of the thing people think is that they're going to report someone and the police are going to get involved it's going to be like appalling and the family's going to get torn apart and that that's such a rarity. I mean, unfortunately, it does happen, of course. And there are instances where that very much needs to happen.

I always say the last thing they want to do is to separate a family. That's the last thing. Actually, when we spoke about it on our stories, I had quite a few people that work in child protection and child services. And someone wrote to me and she said i'm so glad that you verbalized it this way because so much of my job is teaching people i don't want to go and take a child away from their family and the last thing she's like there's so many steps that happen before i remove a child from their home but I think people think oh well if I call the NSPCC does

that is that mean that that child's going to suddenly get taken away or a child protection going to sir like bang on the door and there's there's so many steps that they take before and I think this is precisely why we need as many people as possible to to do the 10 minute training in fact there was a a target of 10,000 people in the first. Yeah, they've surpassed it already. Yeah, it was, was that the first six, first month they wanted, and they're up to 14,000 already. So they're doing incredibly well. But again, the more the better, right? Because if we can get the whole country doing this, then fingers crossed, you know, more and more children live happy lives free of neglect or abuse or, you know, anything um and the world's a better place you

know so jim how has becoming a dad changed the way that you process what happened to you and how has it affected you and margo and what how you think about her I don't know if um me becoming a father has changed because I think I was I've I've had so much therapy about it since you know a fairly young age I I like to think I mean maybe Sarah will well as an onlooker will tell you more but um I like to think I had that under control like I actually view my childhood as kind of a story of positivity in a way you know yeah things happened um and those things were awful um and my my childhood was kind of like a fairly scary experience but I've I've I've kind of I've come to terms with that and now I've learned a lot from it and the man I am today um I like I'm a really gentle guy you know and I think you're definitely a lot softer and I would

say the same with your brother as well Jim's a twin so they would have a similar lived experience and if I watch your brother as a dad and you as a dad you're both really hands-on you're really kind and gentle and loving and I think if you didn't know about Jim's childhood you wouldn't have any idea you would just think that's a really like in touch dad and I think the same for John you just think what a great dad. I think both my brother and I have had enough therapy to realize that my dad behaved appallingly. But a lot of that was because of the way he interpreted things. He had MS and I always think that he was a real kind of a victim of it. You know, like my sister inherited it from him and she's super positive and has a great mindset and is making the most of her time and is doing like all this cutting edge therapy.

And, you know, my dad, from I remember, he believed the world owed him a favour because it was killing him. But he also was a very violent man. I mean, he missed my sister's birth because he was in prison for armed robbery. Like, you know, he was, you know, he abused my mum constantly. And I think that I look at him as kind of like a cautionary tale in a way. I kind of, my mum and my big sisters shielded me from it as much as they could. But I think as a kid, you pick up on the environment, right? Like I would visit my friends' houses and go, hang on, why is your house not scary? Like if I have a sleepover here, why are you like all happy and playing?

There's a lot of things I think you're not necessarily aware of once you become a parent you chat about how you want to parent you know choices you might make things you might do whether that's I don't know um what kind of bedtime routine to where do they go to school and it's interesting when I talk about my childhood with Jim and there are things I can't even think of an example now but there are things that I would bring up and I think that's normal that happened to all children and Jim's like what that I has no concept that that's something that happened but I think it's so lived for you that you don't you're not sat there feeling like a victim thinking oh I never got whatever it is that I spoke about you're just

you're happy with your lot you love your life now and we just it's really unfortunate but it does happen to kids all over the place you know in in all periods of time you know I'm not a special um case because it happened to me I but again I've had enough um time with it and to think about it as an adult that I realized that my dad just had his ways and his mechanisms in the same way I do. But his were just very negative and very destructive and very aggressive. And as a result of all of the, I guess, seeing my mum and my sisters nurture me, but also the therapy I've had, I'm aware that he was his own entity doing his own thing and we just happened to be kind of collateral to that so can I ask would a campaign like listen up speak up have helped you it do you think how and how do you think it would have helped I guess someone would have spotted um his I don't know, maybe we were, would be at the park or we'd be somewhere or doing whatever, you know.

But a passerby or a friend of the family or someone else would have spotted a sign, whether he, you know, he grabs one of us by the wrist too tight or he's, I don't know. I can't, you know, any, pick an example. Someone would have seen that and gone, OK now i know what to do i mean you hear all these stories about um people who come out the other end of abuse and then their neighbors or their friends go yeah we thought something was wrong but we didn't want to interfere and i'm not i'm not going to tell their story but one of the other campaigners had mentioned that their they had gone through abuse and their neighbor said to them yeah we heard noises but we just didn't know what to do and that's the perfect example and they really said I really vividly remember the neighbors saying

I heard noises and I think they felt a bit of anger about it but I've obviously come to terms with it and I really hope that this is the campaign that in that situation, the neighbours would know what to do and would speak to someone. Yeah, precisely that. I mean, there's always people close to you who go, yeah, we thought something was wrong, but didn't want to get involved. Wasn't our business, didn't want to sort of like ruin the family dynamic and say something when, you know, everyone has arguments, et cetera, et cetera. But actually, by knowing the correct steps to take, it could have saved. I mean, it could have changed my mind and my siblings and my mum's life, basically. So let's move on to talk about the joys of social media. We hear lots on the Netmums forums about parent shaming that goes on mums on their phones in the park or in the cafe with kids and they get abused for not paying attention to their child and things

you obviously social media is part of your job what are your thoughts about that kind of shaming and have you experienced it yourself in any way can I answer this one I have a really strong feeling on parent shaming because I whilst I don't have as large a following as Jim I do have a following and share a lot about motherhood and it is the most bizarre thing to me that it's not just on the internet it's at the park it is at music group I would take my daughter to it's at soft play and I it's mental because I honestly believe that I mean obviously we're here talking about child abuse but I do genuinely think that most parents I'd like to believe that most parents have good intentions and you know you're a parent yourself

I'm sure there are so many things that you do or have done with your kids that I might go oh my gosh why did she do that but my my thoughts are is that child happy is that child healthy is that mom sane because we've got to preserve our sanity at the end of the day. So if, for example, cry it out is such a controversial thing. Now, I will admit that we did cry it out. And I'm sure that I will get chastised for this on the internet, because people think all their different thoughts on it. But you know what, our daughter sleeps really well. And I'm a more sane mum for it. And I think I'm a better mum. Now, I'd rather you didn't judge me because I'm not judging you if you're still co-sleeping and still feeding and doing that stuff because I think are you sane

that helps you survive the day and is your child happy and healthy and if we're all happy healthy and sane then who gives a fig what anyone else is doing couldn't agree more yeah I was writing a note there because I agree so much I actually kind of warned my audience at the beginning of the process when when Margaret was born I said listen I've been sharing my life for the last I don't know 12 13 14 years whatever and my journey has grown with me you know know, my audits have grown with me. A lot of them were 15-year-old girls when I first started, and now I get stopped on the street by people in a very similar situation to me. They're 25 or 26.

They're 30, and they've got kids. But I said to them, I like my daughter more than I'm going to like any of you ever. So if I post online and you don't respond the way I deem appropriate, I'll just pull it. I just will. She'll no longer be online and that's that and actually I can't share her enough I have to stop myself because my audience are so joyful it's different for me I think because I think mum's shame is much worse than dad's shame so I my social media is usually met with just pure joy people go oh my god you're such a good dad i'm like i i listen i like to think i'm a good dad but actually i'm i'm a dad that's just there i'm lucky

that i like to think that pretty much every dad who would be there and has a job that i have would have the hands-on time with them and i think it's just the fact that i'm a lucky dad as opposed to being a particularly good one you know i get more time with them and I think it's just the fact that I'm a lucky dad as opposed to being a particularly good one you know I get more time with my kids but my social media is actually full of positivity around Margot and that's lovely and I want to post constantly you know like how every other parent who just doesn't happen to have 2.4 million followers online will share their kids constantly because you're a parent that's what you want to do i wrote an article about this and i found the stat for the amount of i can't remember what it was it's a while ago i wrote it but it was like it was hundreds of thousands of pictures are shared

by one family in like the first five years of their life because the parent is like oh my gosh look and i literally said to jim the other day i was like i can't remember what our daughter said or did and I looked to her and I said to Jim do you think every parent looks at their kid and thinks you are the most amazing person I've ever met oh my god of course they do everyone's got the press we've got Einstein right here like you just think they're amazing so you want to share I would say we have had so many chats as parents about online safety for a child, how we can protect our daughter. And I was about to ask, will you ever stop sharing? Yeah. So it's a passionate subject and it's not it's hard to talk about because the people that feel strongly about sharing your child on social media feel so strongly about it. And there are they're not like, you know, shouting into an echo chamber.

They do have valid comments and we'd be stupid to ignore them. I like to think echo back to what I said before. Is that child happy and healthy? And my child is still happy, healthy. She is is absolutely safe i would never put my child's safety um under i think a lot of it is that she's kind of attached to our hip at the moment because she's by necessity and so wherever we are she is and i've said that my job is kind of my life in a way that's the stuff i share there'll be a point where she's no longer attached to my hip and so she's not next to me all the time and I think that's when we'll start pulling back I've noticed a passion a passion a pattern of a

lot of people starting to pull back sharing their children once they kind of get to an age where they're a bit more recognizable their personality is a bit more kind of on show and I think for now for now we're kind of happy with where it is and she's a lovely little soul and we do a lot together and we show her I do think as she gets older she's her own person and it's not for us to share that on the internet she can find herself in her own way there's also a huge concern I have about like being famous too young I fell into what I do um but I was in my early 20s at the time and again I've had loads of therapy and I'm and it wasn't I wasn't suddenly Jim Chapman you know I mean didn't suddenly have loads of followers it took a long time

and I pride myself my work ethic I turn up on time I say thank you you know I'm really polite if I get stopped on the street by by someone who wants a photo or something um you can't expect the same of a child because they don't know any different and if suddenly they're getting stopped and stared at they're gonna start believing the world revolves around them and that's a very dangerous thing um and also it can't last forever and it's not maintainable so at some point they're gonna have a very rude awakening um and that's something for the sake of any child but you know my child in particular for the sake of their ego and their sense of self and sense of worth and their mental health is really really important that they don't believe them this this is the thing about social media that i've discovered it's very easy to think you're the center of everything right because you post your own content you edit your own content you reply to comments

about yourself as yourself you're the boss and it's I I know so many people in my position who are ruined by it because they just believe that they are God's gift they they just believe the hype and actually I'm really I I've worked very hard to make sure that I surround myself by people who will not tolerate that from me. You know, I say it in jest sometimes and I make a joke about it, but they will pull me up on it. And that's my management. That's the clients I work with. That's my family. My family called me FJ. Your wife? My wife, yeah, yeah. They call me Famous Jim. My family called Jim, as a joke, like completely teasing him,

they call him FJ for Famous Jim because my parents, it was actually my aunt that coined it. They live in the States and they came over to visit. And they were like, I find this really weird because there have been articles about Sarah and Jim on the internet, which we've read, but I have no clue who he is. So it was almost like teasing that they went, oh, you're so famous, Jim, FJ, FJ. And then they couldn't believe it.

We went out and we were, Chris is nothing like family to grunge. Yeah, and these teenage girls came up and were like, you're Jim Chapman. And my aunts, they lost the plot. They were like, he actually is famous, oh my God. And they couldn't believe it. And then it became a thing that they were like,

oh, famous Jim. And now out of a joke my family call him fj yeah but back to margo like it's very important that listen if if i can help her in some way as she gets old and is looking for a career then of course i absolutely will but for the time being i there's a there's a point when a child um starts to understand who they are and where they fit into the world. And that is when for me, it's very important to safeguard Margo's development as an individual in the world. I can't deny her social media because that's how kids communicate now.

Like, you know, she'll be socially illiterate. She doesn't have it, but I don't, I'm not going to have her on mine with all the people watching. I'll let her sort of figure that stuff out with us as like guidance um and that's incredibly important to me because i feel like i've witnessed an entire generation because when i started doing this it was adventure and it was chance and i happened to be the right place at the right time and then was the right guy to to make it into career but i have seen so many people come and go. I've seen people rise and fall. I've seen meltdowns and breakups and all sorts. And I don't want Margot to experience it at that level. I would like her to be like all the other kids her age, going through it, figuring it out. And I think that's really, really important and i also think like beyond me having loads of followers it's a tough

thing to figure out for kids regardless because an entire new entirely new way of communicating that actually defies a lot of all the social norms and laws that we pick up as human beings when we communicate so um it's really important for me that she also likes going outside i've started like growing things in the garden so and i take it to the compost heap and stuff and like we play with the worms because it's really important that she has time away from that and even she doesn't really understand screens and things you know it's a i know or social media to that extent but i want her to have these moments now so that it's something that's sort of ingrained in her um to to not

constantly be looking and I'm really happy as well to not always be on my screen when I'm around her so what's next for you guys well we are actually expecting another baby congratulations when is your baby number two due um in the summer So we are in the second trimester now. Thank goodness, because I'm sick as a dog. Luckily, it's not as bad as with Margot. With Margot, I had hyperemesis really badly. And I was really nervous when I fell pregnant again about how I was going to look after Margot. And just, I mean, it's debilitating. You just vomit nonstop.

And I was quite ill again this time around. I did lose quite a lot of weight and was quite kind of sickly. But it's kind of petered off now. I still get mornings like this morning was not a great morning. The other day I had to go to bed and just lie in bed. But mostly it's kind of evened out now. Thank goodness, because it was a rough it was a rough ride. I was I was really that was the one thing, you know, I spoke a lot about hyperemesis with my last pregnancy. And I've had a lot of women contact me and

say are you frightened about having another child because of it and I I never thought I was until I then saw that I was pregnant it was like this moment I looked you know you look and it says on the stick pregnant and I suddenly thought oh my god I'm gonna puke how am I gonna care for my child what what am I gonna do and then the fear kicked in but actually it was much more manageable this time and it's just joyful yeah it's brilliant it's it's also a very different pace this time so when we when Sarah was pregnant with Margot um it was pandemic and our first babies we weren't already looking after Margot

at the time so time just stood still and also like at the moment like sarah's not even showing much so as a dad i'm not connected really to to anything right so i'm just looking at sarah there's no bump there's no nothing i was looking at the app going apart from the sick bucket it's the size of like a you know a cherry at this point i'm like hurry up whereas this time time round Sarah's already through the uh first trimester and it has flown by because we're constantly chasing after Margot and then suddenly I'm like oh my god another week's gone by you know it has gone so much quicker but I do think and obviously because it's very odd how your phones just listen to you and they know things

which is just a little bit creepy but i haven't started to get loads more kind of content on social media about child number two and that's terrifying yeah that fear of like will my child i keep getting stuff about electric lawnmowers because my husband was talking about electric right yes scintillating the stuff that I'm doing at the moment. But it is that fear of that kind of, will both kids be okay? Will my first child be okay? But also is the second one going to be okay because, well, I have enough love for them, but is the first one going to be jealous and feel left out and you feel kind of a bit of a push and pull

and they're not even here yet? Yeah. out and you feel kind of a bit of a push and pull and they're not even here yet yeah um it's the best bit is when you're kind of like 38 weeks or so and your toddler is in the phase of dropping things on the floor and you have to keep bending down to pick the thing up and you can't even see your feet so that's the best bit and then they just you know she'll poke the baby in the eye a couple of times oh she definitely will and then she'll fall head over heels in love with it yeah I think it's nice and I think it's nice they'll have quite a close um they'll have quite a close age gap so hopefully there'll be little pals and play together and we kind of felt like well we still have the energy especially when you realize it was like last night when um

my daughter was just playing up and usually she sleeps and it kind of occurred to me I was like we're gonna be here again in a few months time and I'd I'd forgotten because I've gotten used to putting her down and having the evening to myself and sleeping through the night yeah you also forget how sturdy like Margot is like you know i'm picking her up and throwing around the place and you know i forget that a little tiny newborn is tiny and fragile and yeah it's gonna be really hard to have like two sort of different energies you know because i'm like really fun dad with margo and we get up to mischief and we cause trouble um and then obviously with the little person i'm gonna have to sort of be like oh my god you're tiny you'll be surprised how much changes with number two you'll it's amazing how much more

robust number two ends up being number one I know I'm actually looking back now there are things that I look at as like a first time mum and I laugh at myself I think things I wish I'd known. I remember like Jim went to the gym and he came back and went, you left me and I've been desperate for a wee the whole time and you've been gone. And he's like, why didn't you just go? And I said, well, what if the baby rolled? And he said, she's like three weeks old. She's not going to roll out of just like, just leave her there.

And I was like, no, I can't leave her in her cot. What if she, what if something happens? And now I think. Yeah, there'll be none of that this time my second child's first food was pizza by me might I add I came into the room and my older child was eating pizza and had just given the baby a slice of pizza who and she was merrily sucking on a pizza so less precious precious, definitely less precious. So my last question for you guys is, Jim, which is your favourite of the 147 things? Oh, that's tough. I have a thing about belly buttons, which I have discovered is more common now than I first realized. I hate them.

I can't touch my own belly button. Margot's umbilical cord was a real struggle for me, especially, you know, a couple of weeks when it goes, essentially just rots off. It's horrendous. And I said to Sarah, like, there was a limit to how many nappies I could physically do because I was so grossed out by it.

I was like, as soon as that thing drops off, tag me in. But anyway, it's called omphalophobia is the official name of it I can't touch I actually Margo's is probably the only belly button out there when you came out with your book and you were doing like book signings and stuff did people come up to you and say I have the belly well they hadn't read it then because it only had people released. But have people since come up to you and said, like, I have the belly button thing too? Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, it's not common. And it's totally irrational.

Really? You surprised me. But it's not as rare as I first thought. Doesn't one of your sisters have it? My sister used to, yeah. And now she's kind of gotten over it, I think. It's hereditary. It's really weird.

But yeah, knowing that I'm not alone with the irrational fear of belly buttons is probably one of my favorites. Well, thank you guys very much for sharing your morning with us. For any listeners who would like to find out more about the Listen Up Speak Up campaign, you can go to the NSPCC website and we will put the link in the show notes as well. Congratulations on your news, guys. Thank you. Good luck in removing the sick bucket from your life, Sarah. It's coming. I can feel it for you.

It's coming. And thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Thank you.