The NPR Politics Podcast - A Love Affair: American Politics And Country Music

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Politicians have long relied on country music stars to burnish their rural reputations — and country stars have long been political agitators. From Loretta Lynn and Dolly Parton to Charley Pride and The Chicks, we do a deep-dive into the relationship between country music and U.S. politics.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, senior political editor and correspondent Ron Elving, national political correspondent Don Gonyea, and national correspondent Debbie Elliott.This episode was produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. It was edited by Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Research and fact-checking by Katherine Swartz.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Ron Elving, Editor-Correspondent. And I'm Don Gagne, National Political Correspondent. And NPR's Debbie Elliott is also here. Hey, Debbie. Hi, thanks for inviting me. So we invited you, we invited all of you here because we are going to talk about country music and American politics. And this all started the idea for this pod with Ron, who I know that you've been thinking about this for a while, ever since the death of Loretta Lynn.

She passed away in the fall at the age of 90. So if you could start by telling us who she is and what got you going on this idea. Loretta Lynn was known as the first lady of country music. She had an extraordinary career that went on for decades and decades. She is, in many senses, the central character, not only in Coal Miner's Daughter, the famous movie with Sissy Spacek playing her, but also in a movie called Nashville, which is not nearly as well known as a movie, but which was about the Nashville of the early 1970s. And Poor saw many things in terms of the use of country music in politics. Very sophisticated film. And Loretta Lynn, I just cannot imagine country music without Loretta Lynn. She is a musical icon and, in a sense, a cultural icon

because she expresses the degree to which country music comes out of the populist tradition of American cultural pride in humble origins. Is there a particular song that, when you think of Loretta Lynn, you think of this song and what she means? Well, Don, wouldn't that have to be, wouldn't that have to be Coal Miner's Daughter? It would, it would, because that was the title of her biography. There was a film, but it's also such an iconic song that tells her story. Well, I was born to coal miners' daughter In a cabin on a hill in Butcher Holler

And let's not forget another song Loretta Lynn did. This was in the mid-70s. It was called The Pill, and it was a hit on country radio. The Pill being the birth control pill. Exactly. And this became a feminist anthem. Many skirts, hot pants, and a few little fancy frills. She describes the pill as this liberating thing that allows her some measure of control over her life. And there it is in three chords in a country song.

And Debbie, was that, I mean, we're talking about the mid-70s. We've made it through the late 60s and the early 70s. In the country music world, was that a non-controversial thing to talk about? No, it was very controversial. I mean, the pill was revolutionary for women, but there were some country music stations that would not play Loretta Lynn's song, The Pill, because it was so controversial at the time. That's right. And of all the proto-feminist songs, this was probably the least likely because Loretta Lynn was not associated with any kind of hippiness or any kind of left wing, West Coast, San Francisco, you know, all of that 1960s stuff from the late 60s.

She wasn't even from the folk tradition, really, the folk tradition that's very closely related to country music, but which had a strong left populist, even radical tradition politically associated with people like Woody Guthrie, for example. So here's my question. Was she a political force? Was she a political force? Was she a political figure? I think the answer to that, listening to these songs, is yes. And I think she knew it.

And I think she was trying to change people's lives and change the world in her own way through these songs. Do you agree, Ron? I think that comes out in the movie where she is shown asserting herself in many different ways, both as an artist and as a businesswoman and as a woman, as a wife, if you will, and changing the rules,

changing the assumptions about how people live together in that era. The other thing, though, was that she realized she could be a political force and went to work for, well, conservative politicians. She went to work for George H.W. Bush in the 1988 campaign.

She went on stage with him. She would talk about him. She would say, look, folks, I know George Bush and he is country. And she would say, no one would believe otherwise because he is country. And she would say it's the way- Which no one would believe otherwise, because he is Maine.

Oh, my goodness sakes. He is Kennebunkport, Maine. He was the least country Western president possibly ever. And it just was, it was ridiculous. And yet she had such credibility that when she stood on a stage and introduced him that way, then he could get up and say anything he wanted. And he was legitimate in the eyes of Loretta Lynn fans. So, Debbie, is country music stars like Lee Greenwood and his God Bless the USA song that's become pretty much an anthem on the campaign trail, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. But you also have other musicians who take the other side. I think about Jason Isbell, who is from North Alabama, used to be with the Drive-By Truckers, sort of a southern rock group. He sometimes is considered Americana. He's a fabulous songwriter. And he has flat out supported Democratic candidates. He supported Alabama Senator Doug Jones during his campaigns. He supported Beto in Texas. And he writes songs that are about politics. You know, he has a song out right now with Buddy Guy that talks about mass shootings. He and his wife, Amanda Shires, wrote a song about abortion. So he does not shy away about who he is.

And if it alienates his listeners, he says that's okay. And Jason Isbell, Debbie, as you know, I'm sure, is eager to engage on Twitter. And it's not just his songs. He will get into arguments, and he'll confront those, just shut up and sing. We like your songs. Keep the politics out of it. And he says, it's the whole package. This is who I am. And it's fascinating to watch him engage on all of these levels. And I think we all know the saga of the Dixie Chicks and how they went to the absolute zenith of country popularity. And then Natalie Mainz, the lead singer, you know, made a remark about how ashamed she was of George Bush, W, that is George W. Bush, during the Iraq War. And they plummeted. They came back, certainly in terms of their reputation. People were burning their CDs.

Oh, yeah. I mean, they were persona non grata in Nashville for a while, but... And blacklisted from country radio. Now, of course, they did make a comeback and they changed their name to just The Chicks and perhaps found a new audience, but I think also brought back many of their original fans. But it is difficult to overstate how much they were denigrated because of that political stand. At the same time, we have always had people like Willie Nelson. Willie Nelson goes back to the 1950s when he first wrote Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain, when he first wrote Crazy. He was writing fabulous songs for Patsy

Klein before any of us would have been born. And that is a tradition in country music as well because Willie Nelson has always been a very liberal leftist, whatever you want to call him, progressive populist figure. Willie Nelson's songs are not political, I wouldn't say. I mean, maybe he sneaks one in here and there, and he's been a strong advocate for years and years, decades for the legalization of marijuana. I mean, isn't there some story about him at the White House during Jimmy Carter's presidency? Was he on the roof smoking dope? I believe it's that he smoked dope, I think, on the roof of the White House. It may have been one of the balconies with Chip Carter, one of Jimmy's sons. Wow. And those were the times. Yeah, those were the—

These were the late 70s. Debbie, I want you to talk about the connection between George Wallace and country music. And George Wallace is the former Alabama governor famous for, you know, declaring segregation forever, right? Known for segregation more than any other probably politician from the 1960s. But he went on to launch independent campaigns for the presidency in 68 and in 72. And country music fans were behind him and some of the most popular country musicians at the time. Tammy Wynette would sing that song Stand By Your Man at his campaign rally. So was she singing that because it was one of her greatest hits? Or was she singing that because the idea was that people needed to stay with George Wallace no matter what? Yeah, the idea was stand behind George Wallace.

He's your man, right? And it was, you know, pretty effective. I mean, he launched pretty remarkable independent campaigns, given his history at the time. Other country music stars were behind him as well. Minnie Pearl. Remember Minnie Pearl from the Grand Ole Opry who wore the hat with the price tag on it! Right, right. So I wanted to ask you about this, Don. That Stand By Your Man and Tammy Wynette came up again in the 90s, right? Do you remember that episode with Hillary Clinton? This was just before the big primaries in 1992. Bill Clinton is running for president and there are all kinds of things swirling around about his treatment of women and extramarital affairs and all that.

So he and his wife, Hillary, sat down on the couch for an interview on 60 Minutes. And she was asked about her husband's alleged affairs and how she has stood by him. And this is what transpired. You know, I'm not sitting here as some little woman standing by my man like Tammy Wynette. I'm sitting here because I love him and I respect him and I honor what he's been through and what we've been through together. And, you know, if that's not enough for people, then heck, don't vote for him. Needless to say, Tammy Wynette took offense at and Barbara Bush, the current first lady, married to George H.W. Bush, had a cookie bake-off and everything else. But the song had a moment there in the early 1990s again. Stand by your man. All right, we are going to take a quick break. Stand by with us. We will be back in a second.

And we're back. We've mostly been talking about the solid connection between Republican politicians and country music. But there are also country musicians who are Democrats or allied with Democrats or affiliated with Democrats. So what is that relationship like? We've talked about it a little, but let's get into it a little more. Barack Obama, in his first year in office, started this tradition that he carried out through his entire presidency where he would have themed music nights at the White House. There'd be jazz night at the White House, soul night at the White House, blues night at the White House. The very first one he did in 2009 was country music night at the White House. And we were all like, oh, he's trying to like— He's triangulating.

Exactly, exactly. And he had Alison Krauss and Brad Paisley, two big stars and stellar musicians in. He also had Charlie Pryde. Charlie Pride. And if people don't know Charlie Pride, his career started in kind of that golden 1960s era of country music and continued into the 70s and in the 80s. He was the first big mainstream African-American star in country music. What is he known for? What is his greatest hit? So one of his biggest hits, and this is pretty typical of the Charlie Pryde sound. It's called Kiss an Angel Good Morning. You've got to kiss an angel good morning and let her know you think about her when you're gone. In a lot of ways, Charlie Pryde was political just by being there, just by being himself and just by being an African-American on stage at the Grand Ole Opry and singing these mainstream country songs.

He came to the White House that day in 2009 and I was on the beat then and I made it a point to pull him aside and interview him. And you could tell he didn't really want to talk politics. But he did express great pride at the notion that we had a black man in the White House for the first time. And you could tell that he understood what was going on there in ways that the rest of us could not. I don't want to belabor it, but I do believe that everybody that's born on this planet is born for a certain thing. I believe there's a certain amount of divine purpose. I think 47 years ago, he was born to be who he is today. Charlie Pryde played himself in Nashville, the Robert Altman movie that I mentioned earlier from the 1970s.

And there is a scene in which his race breaks up a restaurant. That is part of the story around country music and politics because, well, the George Wallace Association that we've already mentioned, and that was picked up on. Debbie, I want to hear you talk a little bit about this because I know you have an interest in it. That was picked up on by Richard Nixon and made a big part of Richard Nixon's whole appeal to the South and to the forgotten American. Right.

There's this sense that there's the story of when country music was first discovered in the 20s, people looked down on it as like that hillbilly music. This is for a bunch of morons, right? And so the fact that country musicians could find a sense of pride and a sense of people think we matter. That changed things. Can we talk about Dolly Parton? Because I think of her as someone who transcends politics, that she's just this beloved figure. But is that right? I think that's right. That sounds right to me. I don't think I can associate Dolly Parton with any kind of a political figure. And I stand to be corrected. If she's done it, then I've missed it. But in the sense that Loretta Lynn went all in for George H.W. Bush, and certainly other country artists have associated themselves, I think of Brooks and Dunn, for example, campaigning with George W. Bush. And Dolly Parton, as far as I know, has not done that. She has been larger, if you will. She has been

a metacultural figure. And that's what I think a lot of these musicians strive for, right? I think about Garth Brooks, for example, huge country music star, huge following in very red territory. Well, he played at President Biden's inauguration and got a lot of flack for it. But guess what? In this last year on his tour of stadiums around the country, he was selling them out and setting records. People were still coming. The interesting thing about somebody like Dolly Parton is while you don't associate her with one party or another, she does come across as very much the activist. I mean, she has things she believes in. The influencer, if you will.

Exactly. And it's childhood literacy or, I guess, was it a political stand when she promoted vaccines the way she did in the past few years? I don't know that it was a political stand when she started. But by the time she got her second dose, COVID vaccines had become politicized. But she had invested in the research. She had helped fund the research into the Moderna vaccine. where she is not affiliated with political positions, but she is admired, revered as an activist and as a person who wants to make a difference and make the world better. You know, we can't talk about Dolly Parton, though, without talking about her famous song, Nine to Five, which some could say was a political song. It was sort of asserting the rights of women in the workforce, right?

Yeah. And ultimately, years later, Senator Elizabeth Warren, in her presidential campaign, used this as like her walkout song. So this is sort of a bigger question than just country. And I think we're going to end with it. But there are a lot of musicians who are affiliated with politicians. I think of John Legend. I think of, you know, how many Bruce Springsteen concerts have I seen on the night before an election in Ohio? James Taylor with John Kerry. James Taylor is what comes to my mind. I think he's played at every Democratic convention I've ever covered. I've seen Lady Gaga. I've seen Bon Jovi, all while covering campaigns.

I've seen Toby Keith at George W. Bush events. I've seen Lee Greenwood perform live for both George W. Bush and Donald Trump. Donald Trump really did claim this song, and I don't think there's any going back. And I'm proud to be an American Where at least I know I'm free And I won't forget the men I asked Lee Greenwood about that line,

I'm proud to be an American Where at least I know I'm free. And I was like, that seems like you're kind of selling us a little short, like, at least we're free. But he had an answer. He said, you can take everything else away. And if we have that, that is something that we treasure and that we can build on. And that's where he was coming from with that particular line. So my question is, all these musicians campaign with politicians. Does it work?

Does it succeed at getting people to vote for these politicians? Does it help? I remember watching Bruce Springsteen bring out an enormous crowd for Mike Dukakis. And I do not believe that that crowd would have overflowed the entire city square of Madison, Wisconsin, just for Mike Dukakis. As we say, crowds don't vote, right?

The rally crowd doesn't. I mean, maybe they vote. Maybe they voted. Those aren't votes. But Michael Dukakis. As we say, crowds don't vote, right? The rally crowd doesn't. I mean, maybe they vote. Maybe they voted. Those aren't votes. But Michael Dukakis is not president of the United States or former president. He's just not. I mean, that's similar to a question of, you know, how much do political endorsements matter, right? It is.

And maybe the answer is just that. It depends. These musicians entertain the crowd. These musicians make these people want to come to this rally. And it's a benefit to the supporters of these politicians. It's all about improving the odds and moving the needle a little bit. Like maybe this ad that gets everybody talking helps. Maybe the fact that Bruce Springsteen came

gets people a little more enthused. And all of the things that a campaign does and all of the millions they spend over the course of the years is designed to move that needle, each thing, just a little bit. So maybe you do win by that one percentage point in Pennsylvania that's enough to tip the balance.

Well, you have to admit that music definitely makes politics more palatable. Debbie, like a spoonful of sugar. It's like trying to imagine a movie without music. I mean, there is such a thing. It's called a documentary or, you know, it's called an unentertaining movie. But all movies that try to move you emotionally use music and politicians do, too. Well, let's leave it there for today. Debbie Elliott, thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Oh, my pleasure.

I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Don Gagne, national political correspondent. And I'm Ron Elving, editor correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.